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Session 1 |
| [1,1] Linc Kesler: And I'm here with Morrie Jimenez and we're going to begin talking today, I think about, your, your parents and your early life, Morrie. So anywhere you'd like to begin is just fine. |
| [1,2] Morrie Jimenez: I think I'd like to begin with, with my birth on the Klamath Indian Reservation, back in 1933. And I was born on the reservation, in our hospital. I say, our hospital because the Klamath Agency Hospital was situated on the Klamath Agency grounds, and, as most tribes did back at that particular point in time, still do today, our centre of government was in Agency, a Bureau of Indian Affairs Agency grounds, that included, medical facilities, health facilities, tribal administration buildings, council halls in many cases, natural resources buildings, all those governmental, government based buildings that were assigned to the Klamath Tribes to assist the tribes, in moving forward, initially as continuing tribal units under the reservation system. |
| [1,3] The Klamath Agency Hospital, I have fond memories of the Klamath Agency, primarily because it was the centre of our health care facilities and being the centre of our health care facilities and service delivery agency, it was also a place where we met people from the rest of the reservation and, and we talked and we visited, either within the hospital facility or in more, in more cases, often than not, out in the parking lots and the other parts of the agency facility cause they were, well, they were well maintenanced grounds at that Klamath Indian Agency. So there were plenty of places, we had a little store, very close to the Agency Hospital, where children quite often went to get their pop and their candy, while their parents visited, parents also conducted business as well, they would at the hospital facility, the Tribal Administration Building, which was just across the lawn. Many cases, there were, their questions that they had regarding land allotments, regarding natural resources, policies and procedures and management, more often than not, and being, being a part of a governmental process that was designed to turn us into farmers at one time. We had many a questions that we would ask of the natural resources and the land and maintenance people and the agricultural offices. |
| [1,4] And so it was a place where, we conducted a lot of business, tribal business, utilizing the services made available to us, and the people made, and the human resources made available to us by the federal government through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I was born in 1933 in that agency hospital to my mother and father, who, my mother, who was a full blooded Klamath person whose family had always been on the reservation. And was the home place of, of the Klamath Tribes, but also, was also the assigned home place of the Modoc people who were brought up from Northern California, and the Yahooskin band of Piute people that were also brought onto our reservation, great numbers of them were brought onto our reservation as part of the governmental process to, in collecting all the Native peoples and placing them on the reservation during the period of time when they were establishing the reservation. So that many of our reservations particularly in this state, but I know another states, as well, become confederations of various tribal units and bands, who were assigned to a particular reservation. For us it was Klamath, Modoc and Yahooskin. For the Umatilla it was the Umatilla, Cayuse, and Walla Walla. At the Warm Springs, it was the Warm Springs, Wasco, and Piute. |
| [1,5] And so we were collections and confederations of tribal units and bands on our reservations, very similar. And so that, we grew up in a society, in a tribal society, that was, that was diverse, particularly given the fact that we also had the families of the Bureau of Indian Affairs staffs that staffed our Agencies and were our service delivery agents on our, on our . . . And a part of that process involved monitoring, monitoring of our activity on the reservation, which came in different forms: we had tribal police, at one time. That didn't last very long. We become, we then became wards not only the Federal Government wards, eventually the county and the state governments, particularly as it relates to law enforcement and policing duties and that type of thing. And, for the most part, we saw our reservation, and particularly the Klamath Agency grounds as, as our home place, our place of security and, and like the Agency grounds, we had other plots on the reservation, a lot of other sites on the reservation that provided same kind of security and well-being and level of comfort, that was culturally based, in terms of either Klamath, Modoc or Yahooskin Piute. |
| [1,6] We had the Klamath Agency there, located near the centre but on the, near the western border of our reservation boundary lines. And we had, about eight miles away, the, our big course community of Chiloquin, which was just within about fifteen, twenty minutes drive of the Klamath Agency grounds. We had, even farther east, towards Lakeview and towards the eastern boundaries of the reservation, we had our other communities of Sprague River, a smaller community, and even farther than that, the communities of Bly and Bonanza, which were a part of the reservation system, which had multi-cultural, for the most part, multi-cultural communities. They were multi-cultural based communities, but with the majority of the community being tribal in that respect. |
| [1,7] And, and the Modoc Point Community, which was just south, towards Klamath Falls, towards the California border of the Klamath Agency grounds on the old highway, was another one of our communities. And, and it was a smaller community, but it was, more industrious community, because we had a mill located there. We had a, a subsidized mill that, that the federal government operated, through . . . It was publicly owned mill, private enterprise mill, but it was subsidized by the federal government to assist us in, in harvesting our timber on our reservation. We had another one, in, just north of Chiloquin, very close to the proximity of Chiloquin in the Lone Pine Region. |
| [1,8] So, that's where I like to start, because when I think of the Klamath Agency Grounds, I think of all of that together, ok? I can't separate those when I think of my birthplace, and because they were all apart of a whole. At one time, when I was, back working for my tribe in early 70's, no it, it was later than that, it was the end of the 80's, I took a job back with my tribe as a consultant, educational consultant, and wound up working with the tribal council and eventually serving a term as the Tribal Chair. And, in trying, we were in the process of trying to have our, our tribal reservation restored, after the termination process removed our federal recognition of our tribe, in the 50's. And so we were, we were, we, we operated as a terminated tribe between the middle of the 1950's, through 1986, when the federal, when we were allowed, the Restoration process allowed us to be restored as a, as a tribe, within the Bureau of Indian Affairs system. |
| [1,9] During the period of the time that I went back there, at the end of the 70's, and serving my tribe, and on occasion of leading the Tribal Councils, providing leadership, we had a natural, we had the Forest Service come in at one time, to share with us a good bit of news. I called the council together and we invited the Forest Service representatives. We had been negotiating with the Federal Government, over, over a great many things. But one of the things we were concerned about was the preservation of what we refer to as "Sacred Landscapes," "'Sacred Sites," and this process had be going on for a long time, between the period of Termination in 50's and Restorations in the mid-80's. And we had established pretty good, positive relationships with the Natural Resources, with the Forestry people. And so, their message to us at that particular meeting was that they brought in all these maps and, and they brought these in official papers that, they were going to ask us to sign, recognizing what it was that they were going do for us. |
| [1,10] And what they had done, is they had taken a portion, just a sliver or Yamsay Mountain, designated as a sacred landscape for the Klamath Tribe. And, and the bottom line at that particular meeting was that we were very appreciative, the tribal community, we were all very appreciative, and thanked them for what he was doing. Afterwards the delegate from the Forest Service wondered why there wasn't more acceptance, and more obvious acceptance, more happy feelings about what occurred. And I had to explain to him that we were very appreciative for any thing that was going to help us preserve as much of our former sacred landscape, because with the whole reservation, which at one was more than 21 million acres, and eventually, down to the period of, up to period of Termination, eventually, lessened, less than a million acres, ok? And then eventually, at Termination, we lost all of that too. And, and during the period of Restoration, when they came in after we tried to establish, we were in the processes of re-establishing (?) because of the Restoration Act of 1982, we were very intent of trying to get as much back of our former reservation as we possibly could. |
| [1,11] And, so I had to explain to him, that when he said to the, our tribal council people who were all, grew up in the traditional Klamath culture, he should not have expected too much, elation over, happiness, primarily because they, they could, they saw Mount Yamsay, which of course was what they were affording us, a sliver of Mount Yamsay, it was very difficult for them to remove that sliver from the Mountain. Because that mountain, Mount Yamsay, Yamsay Mountain, was such a significant part of the total sacred landscapes of the reservation, the reservation period. |
| [1,12] So when, so that's why it's very difficult for me to think of any part of our former reservation, any part of my former life experiences on the reservation, except as a whole. You know, and I think of the Agency, I think of Chiloquin, I think of Bly, I think of Bonanza, I think of the Klamath Lake, I think of Crater Lake, I think of Mount Yamsay, even Mount Shasta in Northern California, which we included as a part of our historical landscapes. Mount Yamsay we refer to as the, as the home of the North Wind, Mount Shasta in Northern California, even though it was so far removed from our reservation, we refer to as the Walking Mountain. And that type of thing, and so, when I think of, when I think of home, that's what I think of. I think of, not only of Klamath Agency, but the total, the whole, the whole part, and then all of the, all of the life experiences on that reservation, that promoted the development of our people as, as a culture. |
| [1,13] And I was fortunate, having left the reservation back in the 50's, to go to college and get an education, and I, I feel, I'm over the years since then, there's no question in my mind that the influence of that reservation beginning at the Klamath Agency Hospital, has, has provided a really strong, guiding base, and a guiding element in my life. Because, not only of the landscapes, but also the people who live there, and live the life, as we did; and so, I think, I consider myself very fortunate, having gone back, and worked for the tribe, after Termination, and during that period of reservation. A lot of the tribal people that I met, young people that I met, had very little idea of what it was like to grow up on that reservation as a, as a Klamath person or a Modoc person, or a Piute person. They didn't have the benefit, they don't have the benefit of looking back and remembering what it was like, when we were a total community. And, and so I consider I myself, very, very, very fortunate that I was born prior to that period. |
| [1,14] But it was also, unfortunate in the sense that having grown up in that element, in those pristine wilderness of our reservation, which was a beautiful, beautiful place to live. And, we had, during the period of Termination, we discovered we had more than four and half million board feet of virgin timber on our Ponderosa Pine and Fir, we had the Klamath marsh, and we had the Sitan Marsh, which were naturally pristine wilderness places that abounded with all kinds of wild fowl and animal life, and that type of thing. We had large segments of open forested lands where we had natural meadows and glens, river systems and stream systems and we lived, we lived off the land, during that period, even during that period of time that me and my brothers, growing up there prior to termination, we hunted and we fished and we gathered. |
| [1,15] And, and all the inherent qualities, learning qualities that a person could possibly develop, as a result, of that, that, that tie in with our natural element, I think really helped me in the long run, to reach a stage of development that I reached today. Because there were many lessons that I learned about the environment, about the ecology, about the importance of stewardship for man in it's relationship with its, with its surroundings, with its environment; and that we were, and that we had accepted, not knowingly, but we had accepted because it was a part of our belief system, that there was an inherent responsibility to protect what it is that, that was given to you be the creator. So when I think of my birth back then, that's what I think of. |
| [1,16] And when I went back, and when I finally took my children back, I, Lois and I made the conscious decision after I'd been in the teaching business for about fifteen years, that we wanted our children to be, to share in that experience, and to get to know their relatives. And get to know their father's source, human source. And so we made the conscious decision, oh back in '70's, I guess, sometime, to take our kids back, it was the mid-70's, take our kids back. So we went back, and I took a job at the Klamath County school district for two years. And I was so excited about moving back; and then eventually getting my kids into the station wagon and taking them out into those areas that I grew up in that I remembered so well: Klamath Marsh area, the Yamsay Mountain, the Council Crest Region, Fort Klamath, even Fort Klamath Region and all the other areas that I had mentioned, where we hunted and fished and gathered. And we had religious, we practiced religious get-togethers, because that was so common place with, with our families that we, that we still practice a great deal, recognition of, spiritual recognition of what our, what was afforded us and in our experiences. |
| [1,17] And I was so anxious to get them to share in that. The first time I took them out on the, onto the reservation, in the station wagon, and I took them way up on the Klamath Marsh area and the Yamsay Mountain Region, it turned out to be not a very pleasant experience, because all of that pristine wilderness area, that natural beauty, had pretty been, had pretty well been changed, by the timber that had been cut, the roads that had been built through the area, the barbed wire fences that had been erected, the gates that we had to go through, and so forth. And, and it actually turned out turned out to be, for me, a very depressing experience. And so I had, I brought my children back to the house. And like you do at that particular time, at that point on, from that point on was just to try to explain to them what it used to be like, the rivers that we swam in, the water that we drank out of the natural streams, the deer and the elk and the hunting experiences that we had, the fishing experiences. |
| [1,18] We had the excursions, to various parts of the reservation that we refer to as sacred areas: Crater Lake was a natural part, even though there are stories, today that talk about, there was a great fear, there were stories that said there was, the Indian, the Native people were very fearful of the Crater Lake region because of the stories that they heard. We picked huckleberries on the slopes of Crater Lake, we, we regularly camped over, on the edge of Crater Lake, we had prayer, praying ceremonies where our elders told us stories, back then, that was at other points. So all of that is, when I think of Klamath Agency, that, all of that comes into mind, because that was my beginning point, and that was the beginning point of my brothers and sisters as well. Although, I think, yeah, just one brother that was born at that Klamath Agency Hospital, like I was, and the rest of my brothers and sisters were born in Klamath Falls, at that particular point in time. So, that's, there just so many things I can think of at that particular, particular point in time: the activities, the church meetings, the rodeos, the annual fishing ceremonies and celebrations that still goes on today, even though, they can't, they can't fish like they used to, and the fish just aren't there because of what's happened to the environment and the ecology of the area from that point in time. |
| [1,19] What I remember is no longer there, it's a system that, now, needs to be replenished in one fashion or another; ain't gonna happen unless we can get, unless we can get the parties together. And right now, it's talk about, the talk about, that was very commonplace about our responsibilities as stewards, and it wasn't just Indian people who had, who felt that, I realize that now more than ever, that there were non-Indian people who became a part of the reservation community also, who also believe that, and who believe that still today. But stewardship responsibilities and what that, what that implies and what that entails in the long run is now very popular discussion item today for people who are, would very much like to take advantage of what's available in terms of timber, in terms of water resources. There's so much to be told about that particular, that particular aspect. Ok, what do you want to do now? |
| [1,20] Linc Kesler: Well, I don't know, that was a pretty interesting place to, to start. It really... |
| [1,21] Morrie Jimenez: Well we could move to the next natural, to me, in, in my, in my memory - I went from that, we had a ranch. We had a, we had a little ranch as a part of the land allotment process that went on with most reservations across the country during that, back in that period of time. And so, our allotment, it was a hundred and sixty four acres at Modoc Point; and so it was mostly farmland. My Aunt Helen had a land, similar land allotment right next to our land allotment. And so, we had, our, one of my aunts in close proximity. My third aunt . . . and that's probably, that's probably a good place to go, right now, is, our nuclear family, my mother. Yeah. |
| [1,22] Linc Kesler: [break] . . . back. |
| [1,23] Morrie Jimenez: Ok, well I think that, the next thought that comes into mind, would be, being born into, being born into a family that has such a long tradition on the reservation. And, I knew my, only knew my, I knew my great-grandfather, who was from another tribe. Who had wound up on the reservation and my, no he was Klamath, my great-grandfather was Klamath, it was great-grandmother that was, was from another tribe. And I knew my grandparents, but by the time we came along, and I being the second eldest, I have a half brother that's about six or seven years older than I was, and so, about our nuclear family, would be, the next natural thing for me to think of, because we were such a close family. And, we practiced, we practiced at family life that made it a very comfortable, was very comfortable for me, and I know it was very comfortable for, because we were so close. |
| [1,24] I had my mother, had two sisters, my Aunt Helen and my Aunt Almeda, they lived in close proximity to each other on the reservation in the Modoc Point, Williamson River, Lower Williamson River area. And my grandmother was always included as, as a very close part of, of the nuclear family itself. And so Grandma was, was always around to, to all of us. And she stayed with, with each of the families, each of the aunts, and my mother, on many, many occasions. My grandfather, had passed away before, who I'm named after, Morris, passed away, quite a bit before, I couldn't remember Morris very well. But my great grandfather was still around and he used to sit on the porch of my grandfather's house in Chiloquin, and eventually that's where, she lived, was in Chiloquin, because there were also residential allotments that were afforded to tribal people in the little, in the little centre of Chiloquin. And my Aunt Helen had a second home there in Chiloquin, just next to my grandmother, as well. And my brother, my older brother had a, an allotment, a small residential allotment in Chiloquin also. |
| [1,25] So, there was, as I was growing up, I think, one of the things that I remember the most, outside of the landscape, would be my family, would be my aunts and my uncles, because my Aunt Helen, that I was very close to, I stayed with quite often. And I went hunting, they were both hunting, my aunt and my uncle. And they used to put me in between them in the pickup and we'd go hunting, way up, way up for deer and for elk. And, up into, up into the upper parts of the reservation, my Aunt Almeda who lived right next door to us, she was just like a second mom to us, because she was so close and her children. And, my father, who was Mexican and came to this country at the turn of the century, around, between 1900 and 19 . . . between 1910, and 1930, I think is when he came, somewhere in through there. Initially, was adopted, by the family and by the, by the individual members who came to know him very well. And we lived a very, we lived a very simple life, on the reservation, on our land allotment. Initially we didn't live on the reservation, primarily because my dad went from railroad worker, in the early 1920's that's how he came into the country, to a lumber mill worker, and that took him into the lumber mills within the, within the Klamath County, within the Klamath County Region. |
| [1,26] So, that's why I wound up living in Algoma during the early part of my life. And, and because my father had a job at the Algoma Lumber Mill, which is a huge mill complex there, just North of Klamath Falls, approximately fifteen miles on the lake shore. And my grandmother, I remember, came and stayed with us a number of times when we lived, and we lived in company housing, because the company, company mills, that's what they did, they built company housing for their employees. They built a company store, a company gas station, and commissaries. And, so you were, you lived in this mill town, and you became another community. Another different . . . The Algoma community was one of the most diverse communities I've ever lived in, and since then, because the laborers within that lumber mill, were all, were all immigrants for the most part, they, their families were immigrants, they were immigrants that came in from so many different places around the world: we had Poles, we had Swedes, we had Finns, a lot of, a lot of Scandinavian people who worked in the mills as lumber jacks, and who worked, who worked in the timber, the timber areas and then eventually, came down and worked in the mills. |
| [1,27] Then we had a few Hispanic, they were Mexicans back then, and became Hispanics only much later. But anyway, my father referred to himself as a Mexicano and there was a Mexican community within the Klamath County Region, not a very large one, but an obvious community. And so, I grew up, not only participating with the people on the reservation, and, but also participating with his, with his friends out of the Mexican community that lived in the area, so we had a, and they lived in a number of communities, south of Klamath Falls, through Klamath Falls and, to the reservation area there. A number of small communities that developed on the lakeshore there and everyone of them had, were really diverse little communities and so when they got together, we always got together as a diverse, as a diverse group, and growing up in that little community, I think helped me, great deal in learning acceptance of other people's belief systems, in other people's way of life, because we shared. They were such a sharing community. We shared, food, on a regular basis, we shared celebrations on a regular basis, we shared ideas, beliefs, thoughts. |
| [1,28] We grew up, the children grew up as a very diverse community, and so we had Japanese, we even, we had Japanese and Chinese people who worked in those mill communities at the same time as well, so it wasn't until World War II that I realized that for some reason or another, that, that we need to be concerned about the Japanese people, when they came in and picked up all the Japanese families and shipped them out and they disappeared overnight. And we had no idea why that was going on, even though we knew there was a war going on, we still, it was very difficult for us to understand why they would come in and take our Japanese families out of our community. It wasn't until much later we learned all of the story about why that was happening and that, that's a different story. But anyway, growing up in the small, Algoma community, such a diverse community, we learned to appreciate a great many things about people. And I think, coupled with my family's belief, my mother in particular believed, who felt that there, there, our level of tolerance, for other people and other things should always be very, very high, and, and that there was really no basic differences between, what she referred to as God's People, the Lord's People, I think helped me establish with, within our total family, with my other brothers and sisters a much broader acceptance of people in general and ideas and thoughts in general, and ways of living, in general. |
| [1,29] But, so my first, my first recollection of, of life, outside of the reservation and the Klamath Agency, being born there, has to include the Algoma experience because I spent my first four years of schooling there in a little tiny two room building that, the building's still standing although it's become a residence now. And going to school with such diverse array of students and having such a diverse array of, of experiences. I recall very, very fondly, very, very fondly my teachers. And I met one of my teachers years later and that was an interesting experience. I met her on a college campus and she was quite elderly by then, but I was amazed at how short she was, because she, as a primary school youngster, she was such a tall beautiful lady back then. And she was still a beautiful lady when I hadn't seen her since I had left school. But that mill experience, in a mill town experience is something that there are very few people can recall because of course society has changed so much that we don't have those, too many communities like Valsetz and Algoma and those kinds of communities any more. |
| [1,30] My brother's, my brother's just a year younger than I am. I have a, I have four brothers. I have brother just a year younger than I am, I have another one that's about five years younger and I have, I have fourth that's about seven or eight years younger than I am. And then I have a sister, I have two sisters and then, one of the sisters was killed in an automobile accident number of years back but and then my younger sister's still living. And she lives on the still, and she's married to another tribal member and they have their own children there, but they're not as familiar with that experience as my brother just a year younger than I am, Ramon, and we, because we're only a year apart, we share a lot of those, we remember a lot of those experiences and we both, we share those experiences in later years we haven't had time to do that until in the later years, because I've been, I was gone for so long, off the reservation, away from my family getting an education and then pursuing a teaching career in the rest of the state, but I've had on occasion, more and more occasions over the last few years to sit down and visit with him. |
| [1,31] He's, he has a better memory than I do, so I really, I get more benefit out of it than he does, cause he remembers so much. He remembers the Algoma community and the school, that old two room school building, and growing up as first, second, third and fourth graders, and the get-togethers with, within the community and the traveling back and forth between the reservation and Algoma. But I think a mill town offers, would offer anybody a tremendous opportunity to develop for very close community feeling, and, 'cause that's what we were, even with all the diversity that existed back then. There was still, there were still mores that, that needed to be acknowledged, even back then, but for the most part, internally we were very close community. And I can remember the lumber mill, I think, more than anything else in my mind; it was situated, it was situated on the edge of the Klamath Lake, we had a, it was separated from the Klamath Lake by the time we grew up by Southern Pacific main line, we would build a dyke across those inlets eventually. And, eventually drained those, those bay areas, those cove areas, and created farm land, lumber mill, enough areas to build a lumber mill. |
| [1,32] And then they, they used to the railroad, of course to transport a lot of those logs, and the lumber out of their area. And, but I remember the complex, the mill complex, the huge mill complex, with its mill complex, its burner, its huge, huge burner on the, near the pond. And the company store, the company commissary, the drying kilns, huge drying kilns and a vast, and vast landscape of wooden boardwalks, that were used by the old lumber jitneys who could pick up piles of lumber in between their wheels and then transport them out into the lumber yard. And there in the lumberyard, stack, have lumber mill employees stack those boards up, in huge, huge lumber piles. And they dried out there and they sat out there 'til they were ready for finishing, and then they would go into the planing mill after that. So there was also a planing mill complex, associated with the mill itself. And then we, the employees were afforded amenities of one type or another because they belonged to that lumber mill complex, in the form of food stamps, we referred to them as food coupons back then. |
| [1,33] You paid for them of course, and out of your paycheck, and then they were stamps of various denominations, ten-cent stamps to quarter stamps, dollar stamps came in booklets of different color and different denominations. And so if you needed to go to the store, you had those coupons that your mother tore coupons off, said, "ok I want you to go to the store and I want you to get this, I want you to get that." But they just hand you the book, and then the storekeepers would tear them out, whatever, how much you ever needed. And so we were very dependant upon them, we used that for subsistence, the company store. We bought clothes there, we bought food items there, we bought gas there, we bought . . . I remember, this was during the war then, this was during the war, and, period, and we were, we were, we were experiencing rationing, the rationing experience. And so they, we, they rationed sugar out to us, they rationed coffee out to us, you could only buy so much, you could even only buy so much gas, so often, once you used that up for the month, your allowance for the month, then you had to wait 'til the next month before you get it. But also reminds me of watching the, both on the reservation, on our ranch, and at the Algoma experience, watching the troop, the trains go by, flat cars loaded with military equipment traveling somewhere. |
| [1,34] And so, from Algoma, from the reservation to Algoma back to the reservation on our farms, and eventually my dad, with mills closing down at Algoma, eventually and the mills closing at Modoc Point, huge, huge complex, another lumber complex at Modoc Point, on the lake, just south of where we lived, that eventually closed then, people like my dad, then had to go to Klamath, the Klamath area, Klamath Falls area, to find, in the big mills there. So we wound up in Klamath Falls eventually, where my mother, elected that I should finish my education there. So I started my experience in the educational process in the sixth grade, Pelican Grade School, which is a part of the Klamath Falls School District process. And then, during the next three years, the seventh and eighth grade, I had shared experiences of going to Klamath Falls schools, which was a very difficult experience, that I don't remember too much of, primarily because I don't like to think about the two years that I spent for a half a year, both in the seventh and eighth grade, because they were tough experiences, there were very few Indian people that were going to school in Klamath Falls. |
| [1,35] And the reason that I was there was because my mother was, was so intent on me getting a good education and my brother getting a good education. And she didn't feel that we would accomplish that in the public school system that had developed on the reservation. On the reservation, she had attended boarding schools on the reservation, she was one of the fortunate few that weren't shipped off to boarding schools outside of the state. We had a boarding school there, and she didn't have, she had too many really negative experiences in the boarding school dealing with non-Indian people in the school system, and dealing with the philosophy of needing no more than a fifth grade education and then having your education pretty much spelled out in terms of what you need to be able to learn to do. And the, the curriculum and our lack . . . she was not very satisfied with, so she had, by then of course, by the time we came along, we had moved into the public school systems, which was a part of the Klamath County school system there, but there was no way that she was going to allow to us to go to those schools because of the negative experiences that we had with teachers and with philosophies, differences of culture and that type of thing. |
| [1,36] More often, more than anything else, it was, it was the philosophy of the school system at the Chiloquin public school systems, and so I was asked to make the transition beginning in the sixth grade. Sixth grade was easy at Pelican, cause my dad worked in the mill at Pelican, at Pelican City, and that again was another diverse community where we were very comfortable in that. But when he moved into Klamath Falls, and worked in the two mills in Klamath Falls and I was expected to go to Klamath Falls, that was where I struggled, until I became a part of a protected, of a protected group. The protected group I became a part of, after the summer, during, after the summer, I went to the middle school in Klamath Falls, both in seventh and eighth grade, but less only than half a year. And it was such a different experience for me, and it was so far removed from the experiences at Algoma and Pelican City, that I had to go to back to reservation and, and I tried to go to back to the reservation and, and participated in the schooling experience on the reservation at the Chiloquin Elementary School, and at the Chiloquin Middle School, Junior High School, which was located in the High School. |
| [1,37] But, I too, observed and began to recognize the differences between what I had been exposed to at Algoma school system and the Pelican City school system. And what I was observing both at the Chiloquin Middle School and High School, and the Klamath Falls Middle School experiences, those are different stories altogether. But eventually, they were not positive experiences for me, and it wasn't until the ninth grade when I went back to Klamath Falls again, to, at the insistence of my mother, that I complete my education within the Klamath Falls school system. That was something that was, that was an attitude and a feeling and belief shared not only by my mother, but my aunt, and my aunts and my grandmother. They felt a tremendous need at that particular point in time for somebody within the family to come up with a quality education. That's, that's the way I interpreted it at this late stage in the game, today. They were more concerned that I get an education greater than, or more with higher quality than what they thought was available on the reservation. |
| [1,38] Linc Kesler: Well, that was decision that had a big impact on your life. |
| [1,39] Morrie Jimenez: Big impact, tremendous impact, and I, I still believe today that I was able to achieve that because I became a part of a protected group. When I became involved in the athletic fraternity in Klamath Falls in the beginning in the ninth grade, and then proficient enough at playing football, then I was afforded, I was afforded a higher level of expectation. I was, I was afforded greater protection and security and the expectations, which were, which were afforded all athletes at that particular point in time, or obviously, obviously students who were, well endowed, with an educational background, with political support or, political base or, whatever it was, being a part of an athletic fraternity provided, turned out to be a very good thing for me, because the, primarily because the level of expectation was the same for me as it was for all the athletes. And at that period of time, athletes, within the Klamath Falls school system, at the high school level, it was the only high school in town at that time, was such that there was a tremendous competitive need to excel at athletics and sports. And that there was a tremendous competitive need to be the best in the Southern Oregon region, so the competition between the Medford schools and the Klamath Falls schools and Roseburg schools in the south central area, and Grants Pass schools. |
| [1,40] And the competitive nature of athletics was such that it required athletes to tow the line and to become academically and athletically proficient. And sometimes I think, more then than it is today, because back then, it was, it was academic imperative, an athletic imperative, but also a social imperative. And because we did so much traveling as athletic units, in state and out of state in order to participate, that, we were taught not only, we were taught, expectations, academic expectation were not only high and it was, and it was an attitude, that was accepted by all of the staff at the high school where I went, so that I get the same level of treatment as everybody else did. And I got, a lot, a lot of help that was not available to me on the reservation, the reservation school. |
| [1,41] And it wasn't, wasn't until years later, trying to compare the two experiences at the Chiloquin school system and the Klamath Falls school system, that I was able to, in my own mind ascertain that I was, I was very fortunate to have my parents elected for me to make that step. 'Cause from my preparation at Klamath High School, my academic preparation and my social preparation. We were taught how to, how to, we were taught how to eat at a, at a table setting, where you had all the settings and the different forks and knives and spoons and everything else because we did so much traveling, so were expected to be able to adapt to the situation that we'd run into at Reno, where we went to play athletic games, Longview, Washington, anywhere we, we were taught social skills, that allow, that. |
| [1,42] Linc Kesler: That's quite a geographical range to have been down to Longview. |
| [1,43] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, and so, from that, I graduated from Klamath Indian High School with enough education, enough preparation, adequate preparation enough to go onto college. And that was the next step. And again, it was promoted, by that time, I had enough experience within that kind of system, outside of the reservation system, to really believe that I could go to college. So many of our people didn't go, they not only didn't make it to college, they didn't make it through high school graduation. A lot of the people that I started with in Chiloquin Elementary School made it through various levels, but very, very little percentage actually wound up with a high school, with a high school degree. |
| [1,44] Linc Kesler: Do you think you were the first person to get a college degree? |
| [1,45] Morrie Jimenez: I've been told that by my, I've been told that by various members of my family. And in looking back, I've been trying to, in my own mind determine whether that was true or not. |
| [1,46] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [1,47] Morrie Jimenez: But I just accepted it as fact because it was told to me by my aunts and my . . . they were very proud of me. And not, they were not only very proud of me, because I grew up on the reservation I knew so many of the reservation people, participated in a lot of the cultural activities as a youngster, even though I eventually kinda isolated myself because of what I was doing in high school, in Klamath Falls, I wound up becoming more and more isolated from my community, and the community and the community experiences because I was so involved in athletics and getting an education. |
| [1,48] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [1,49] Morrie Jimenez: But even so, I still remembered all, all the number of tribal people that I would meet on the streets in Klamath Falls, who would come to football games where I was playing, and who would always take the time to encourage and acknowledge the fact that what I was doing was good. And that I, that I should continue my education as far as I could possibly do it. And that always, that was always encouraging to me. And I always appreciated it, because they came from elders, all kinds of elders. They came from the general, the general population of our tribal communities, and I was always receiving a encouraging, encouragement from them to continue what I was doing. And of course that was always there for my family, who saw that. And, and so that, I wound up going to, even though that was another experience, moving into Klamath Falls was one experience for me that created some, some anxiety on my part leaving the reservation and going into a community where the relationships between tribal people and non-tribal people was so potentially filled with, with tenuous kinds of situations or experiences. |
| [1,50] And when I graduated from high school and decided I was going to college, initially I was going to go to the University of Oregon because of my football abilities and those afforded, I was, I went up and visited with the football staff at the University of Oregon, and told that I was eligible for a scholarship to play football at the University of Oregon back then. One of their graduates, who had just recently graduated out of their football program wound up at the head football job at Southern Oregon College, and had toured all of southern Oregon in an effort to get athletes to Southern Oregon College to play football. And he came in and talked me into, talked a number of us into going to Southern Oregon, a number of us out of Klamath Falls to go into Southern Oregon College on the promise that if we got enough fine athletes out of the southern Oregon Conference that we'd be able to build a really good program. |
| [1,51] Back then you couldn't play, freshmen didn't play but two or three ball games at the university, or at the big colleges, a year, while at the smaller colleges that played full schedules. And at Southern Oregon they were playing in the far Western Conference at that particular point, which meant that they would travel into California and play, well known football programs at Chico State and Humboldt State. And we went down to San Louis Obispo and played, Cal-Poly down at Sacramento, and so in addition to the, colleges up here, Lynnfield, Louis and Clark. And so, he taught, he convinced me that I would be better prepared after playing my freshman season at Southern Oregon and then to transfer to the University of Oregon. |
| [1,52] Linc Kesler: And then he had you hooked? |
| [1,53] Morrie Jimenez: He had me hooked. And so I wound up at Southern Oregon, with the intent, full intent of playing one year of football there and then going to the University of Oregon. But I met my wife, I met Lois at Southern Oregon the second year. And so, and so, I . . . |
| [1,54] Linc Kesler: So that changed your plans? |
| [1,55] Morrie Jimenez: Changed my whole plan at that particular, and it turned out to be a very good. It turned out to be a very good change. Because I met my wife, and when I met my wife, I added another element of growth to my personal experiences. Because, there was so much that she's contributed to my, to the rest of my life experiences. And, and the fact that we had six children as a result of that relationship. And went from, I went from a student at Southern Oregon College, to teaching career that eventually enhanced my development as an educational, as a person, as an educator, I guess. And eventually led to the work with, as a consultant to Oregon tribes in the field of education. And, and the additional experiences of working with various educational agencies and institutions which has been very fulfilling for me. |
| [1,56] And all of that, all of that came as a result of the initial experience of growing up, being born on the reservation, growing up on the reservation and it wasn't until years later, in fact, years later, in fact after I retired in 1988 from being a full time educator that I had occasion, and had the time, and had the desire to sit down and try to recall those specific experiences on the reservation that contributed to my overall development. There would be no Morrie Jimenez today, the way he is now without, without that. I'm talking about the various ceremonies and celebrations and recognition that I grew up with, that were Native American in character. |
|
Session 2 |
| [2,1] Morrie Jimenez: ...Has influenced me, as well as other people that I've know who grown up through similar experiences in dealing with, in dealing with our life. Outside of the reservation, our experiences, and during and before and after the Termination and Restoration process, and so I want to talk a little bit about those cultural influences that had a great deal in how I've come to this time and place, so many years later. And if it's alright, I'd like to spend, I'd like to refer to a writing that was shared with me by a friend that I had met here in the valley back in the 60's and it was something that has become more meaningful to me over the years, and gone and . . . on a number of occasions gone back and looked at that essay, that paper that he put together. And so, I'm going to start today by reading some of that document to you, that he shared with me as a friend that he, that he, and I felt very honored that he felt that he wanted to share, whatever reason, for whatever reason, he wanted to share. |
| [2,2] The man is long since gone, I don't know what's happened to him, he was older than I was initially, and I enjoyed visiting with him and he titles this, in his language, he titles this paper, in his own language he calls it "tu nici wa, in mi ticem ba" in English translation very simply is, "what is this upon my land?" His Indian name was Suwaptsa and I had really enjoyed listening to his stories of his childhood and his experiences growing up on the reservation. I had also listened to him lamenting the fact that it had been so long, since he had been back in that experience, and he missed that, and now it's . . . I was very sensitive to what he was saying because I spent so much time off my reservation, off the reservation experience after I got my college education, beginning with my high school education, when I first left the reservation. And then my college education which took me a little bit further away from my home experiences and then eventually my career choice of teaching, which took me, in my treks over the years even farther and farther away from that close experience that I had on the reservation. |
| [2,3] So even today, after all these years, and I first left the reservation to go to school off the reservation in about 1947/1948, even though that took me three years as I previously explained to make that transition, I eventually had been gone from that type of close experience, that day to day experience for a very long time. And so I've had to find other ways to sustain myself, particularly given the fact that my previous cultural experience on the reservation has never left me. And quite often, I find myself, during my life experiences, for one reason or another, reflecting back upon what it was, and they came back to me on many occasions based upon what was happening to me in my previous, in my day to day experiences that allowed me to reflect back and I'd say, "Ok now what, why are you thinking about that, what's causing this concern for you, what's causing this, these thoughts," and it all has to do with family and it all has to do with life experiences of the reservation as I knew it. |
| [2,4] And Leroy this man, put this down in the paper that I was, put this down and wrote this down in such a fashion I was able to be very sensitive to what he was saying. And if it's all right I'd like to just go through this, and he starts off saying very simply: "What is this upon my land? Was it only yesterday that man reached for the moon, and is it today that he stands upon its surface? And you marveled that man traveled so far, so fast; yet, if he has traveled far, then I have traveled farther, and if he has traveled fast, then I have traveled faster, for I was born a thousand years ago. I was born into a lifestyle unique of its kind, but within half a lifetime I was flung across the ages, for from bows and arrows to atom bombs, is a distance far beyond a little flight to the moon." And that's where I find myself quite, quite often in today's, we're all thinking about from whence I came, and even more than that, from whence my people came. And the experiences that they went though in order to get to their stage of life, experiences that I have gone through, my people have gone through, since that point in time, and where we are now. And so I can relate very well to what he's trying to say, about where we are today. |
| [2,5] And then he goes on to say that something to me that I think of, that I reflect on quite often: "I was born when the people loved all nature and listened to it." And I feel very strongly that my experiences on the reservation, the hunting experiences, the gathering experiences, the spiritual experiences, makes me understand that, and be very sensitive to that. "And I spoke to it as though it listened" and I still do that today; I, in my travels as an educator and as a consultant to tribes and as a consultant to state educational agencies, I have found myself in Arizona on Indian Reservations, on the Navaho Indian Reservation, I found myself, crossing Lake Champlain and recalling all of the readings that I had, that I had experienced about those tribes in that area, and I found myself in Rapid City South Dakota, talking to parents about educational problems and educational needs, and talking to school district people, but having the time also to talk to elders about their experiences, their lives, their histories and their backgrounds. I can remember talking to people in Seattle, Washington at education conferences, again people like myself who, who're forced for one reason or another to leave the reservation experience and move into the general life experiences in order to survive. |
| [2,6] And so, that's what I feel when I read this, and so I, that's why I refer to it quite often, because it, in essence we're talking about when I see, when I saw Leroy, when I see, when I've seen other elders, in this state, in their communities and across the countries, I think also of a poem written by a different person that speaks about, and it speaks a person's thoughts regarding an elder who's sitting somewhere, sitting out in front of this person and this guy's analyzing this elder's facial features. The wrinkles in his face, the obvious history in his face, his stature. And that's what I think of, and that's what I think of quite often when I read this, and as I spend time with elders, 'cause it reminds me very much of what I, what I grew up with. "I can remember when I was a young man, I can remember a clear river. Good to drink when I was young." And I think of the Williamson River on my reservation I think of Sand Creek on my reservation, I think of the Klamath Lake, the Upper Klamath Marsh. I think of all of the, all that we gathered out of those water bodies, out of those sources, and what they provided for us, and food that, what they, and sustenance, what they also provided for us, in terms of a spiritual development. |
| [2,7] The belief in nature, a belief in responsibilities that we, that we should, that we have to protect that, and to preserve that as much as we possibly can. And not only externally, but internally, spiritually. And so I, I was really struck by this, and I continue to be struck by what he has put together in his paper. "I remember clear sky good to breathe." And when I was young I could remember an uncharred earth, I can remember an early morning, watching the sunlight fires dance upon the mountains and I remember Crater Lake and the adventures of my families and my extended families that we used to have on the edge of Crater Lake as a result of our huckleberry excursions, and the picking huckleberries on the slopes of the mountains there and surrounding Crater Lake, and the times that we spent on the edge of Klamath, Crater Lake, and the other, and Klamath Lake as well. Of course it lies just south of that Upper Klamath Lake. And those other areas where our, where our members of our extended family, particularly my grandmother and my aunts and my mother and we would share experiences on the edge of those water bodies talking about the way things used to be. And prior to, prior to the reservation period. |
| [2,8] And all the good stories and all the good lessons that we were taught regarding our responsibilities to each other as human beings and our responsibilities to Mother Earth and our responsibilities to the other people of the four directions, as they call it, those other people out there, both Indian and non-Indian alike. And those were lessons in character, and that type of thing. And I sitting on the banks of Crater Lake and, I'm inserting my own thoughts at this particular point, and I, he goes on to say, and I singing a song of thanks for all its beauty, to the Creator, singing so very, very softly, and that was also another part of those experiences at the mouth of the Williamson River on Klamath Lake, on the edge of Crater Lake and the mountains, Yamsay Mountain, and on the, along the edge of the former Klamath Marsh, which was a natural hunting and gathering place for our people, and the pristine beauty in the wilderness area, all of this comes to mind. And so it's something that's always been there, it's . . . In my career as an educator, my involvement with my career, and my choice of vocation, many times, I didn't have the opportunity to sit down and think of those things, I didn't have the opportunity because of what I was doing, to recall those experiences and enjoy the result of those recollections, that internal spiritual involvement with my, with my past and what, and what it gave to me and my family. |
| [2,9] And he goes on to say "and what is this upon my land? Suddenly a strange people came and more came like a rushing, crushing wave. They came, filling my country turning my earth, hurling the years aside. Suddenly I awoke and found myself a young man in the midst of the 20th century I find myself and my people adrift in this new age, but not a part of it. Engulfed by its rushing tide, but only as a captive eddy going around and around and around." And that's where I found years later after I left the reservation, and I finally had time to sit and began spending time and asking questions what happened in my past life? And why is that important to me? And why do I need to find some way to preserve that? |
| [2,10] Coupled with my continuing educational development in College, my continuing educational development, being amongst so few Indian people, my continuing educational development, going to work as a specialist at the State Department of Education. My growing involvement with other tribal units, my extended travel into other parts of the county and my extended involvement with other tribal units and other people and the sharing of similar experiences. I began to develop a better understanding of who I was. Who my people were. And how related we were to the experiences of other Native peoples across the country. |
| [2,11] The travel brought that to me a great, great deal and my sharing experience with people out of the Lakota Country, out of Navaho Country out of the North Eastern, Great Lakes region, my involvement with Native people from those areas and the state of Washington, and Idaho and Northern California and so, and in sharing those experiences I found, them having reached that same stage in development. And having reached same, that same stage of need, of recalling and recollecting and trying to develop a better understanding of where we were at one time, where we are now, and where we need to go. Of course, we have to couple that with the growing civil rights movement, although it's been cyclical in nature, it's opened up, it opened up the opportunities for a great number of ethnic minority people including us, to begin discovering themselves, and it's all right to do that. And in fact we developed laws eventually that created demands on institutions to open up the opportunities for us to explore our economic, political and social development. |
| [2,12] And so, along with that I became more aware, more knowledgeable the experiences of other Native people and how similar they were to what we had gone through in our past. And I can, I can remember, when he speaks of, "not a part of it," "I find myself and my people adrift in the sea, but not a part of it, engulfed by it's rushing tide but only as a captive eddy going around and around," I remember my experiences as a child growing, as a young man eventually developing on the reservation, being a part of the Klamath County experience, but at the same time, separate. A separate part of it. We were the reservation people; we were the Indians. And although we went into the surrounding communities in Klamath County we're, we were taught very early that we were really not a part of that. It was all right for us to be there. And we, and our parents had shared with us the need to exercise care and safety in our ventures into the off reservation areas. And we traveled, we were taught never to travel alone in town. We were taught how important it was to stay together as a group when we were off the reservation and in town, not only in Klamath Falls but in Ashland. |
| [2,13] Wherever we were there was need for us, because at that particular point in time, as I was growing up in the 30's and 40's, and even the early 50's, there was still concern for safety and security and the need for us to utilize our strength, our internal and group strength to protect ourselves. |
| [2,14] Linc Kesler: and you, one of your brothers.... |
| [2,15] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, that was reinforced for us, one time, when one of my brothers, who allowed himself to be separated from the group for whatever reason, I don't recall what the reason was, was caught by a gang of toughs in the community, in the Klamath Falls community, and was beaten up, and assaulted, and dropped into a thermal sewer outlet there on the street they used to keep the snow off the streets during the winter time . . . the Klamath Basin has a lot of thermal activity that they rely upon and a number, for heating and for keeping their sewers clean and that type of thing. And the end result of that was, the fact that he had been burned on his legs as a result of being dropped into that rushing water, although it was minimal in nature and not very deep, it did leave some, it did leave some evidence of burn on his legs. And there were other experiences like that, that taught us the importance of what we were taught as young people, that insured us survival, more than anything else. And limited our, limited ourselves to those kinds of experiences. |
| [2,16] He goes on and says "on tiny plots of land, reservations, we floated in a kind of unreality, ashamed of our way of life, our rituals ridiculed, unsure of who we were or where we were going, uncertain of our grip on the present, weak in our hope of the future, is this where we stand today". And this is one of the pieces where I differed with his thought process at this particular point in time. We lived on a reservation, but from my perspective, because of the insular nature that was developed within the reservation in our community, I didn't, I didn't get that same feeling about our reservation. In fact, I have a warm fuzzy feeling about my life on the reservation and the interactions on the reservation, and, because we were so dependant upon each other, as family, as nuclear and extended families. And we were still, although they were becoming more and more rare, we still had many occasions where we practiced traditional ways and traditional celebrations and whenever that occurred, those were good times. Whether they involved tribal business, or whether they involved celebrations of one type or another. |
| [2,17] And that's what I rely upon, I rely upon that today a great deal in supporting the fact that there was so much good that came out of those kinds of experiences that had made it much easier for us as individuals and in today's world to survive. The celebrations the chuam ceremony and the chuam ceremony is, "chuam" is the Indian Klamath name for the sucker; large sucker fish that lived in the lake and because of the tremendous, because of the tremendous growth in Lake, the natural growth in the Lake, they had, they had a feeding habitat that allowed them to become abnormally large in physical appearance, in fact they were. The suckers then, today, when you talk about suckers today, or white fish today, you're talking about small scavenger fish; back in those, in that period of time on the reservation, that lake was so profuse with food for the fish and the birds and the geese and everything else and the wildlife, those suckers were as big as salmon when they came up the rivers and they had a natural spawning area up the rivers. |
| [2,18] And, so we had always celebrated that natural spawning run of the chuam. At one time, even the salmon and trout, before they put the dams in at Klamath, near Klamath Falls, and the dams on the Lower Klamath River which prevented the runs from the salmon runs from coming up that high . . . But the chuam runs, the sucker runs, were annual celebrations. The celebration, that at varying portions of the Sprague River systems and the Williamson River system, which were the central core river systems in our, on our reservation, and a favorite gathering spot during that run was there just below Chiloquin in fact right at Chiloquin, just below the mill and almost on Highway 97, where the river bends away from Highway 97 and then back and then, and then to the lake and under Highway 97, and then eventually into Klamath Lake. |
| [2,19] There at that celebration site, just near Highway 97 at Chiloquin, from the mill pond, there's dam just above that, all the way down to Highway 97 and then around the river, and then down to the lake, there were favorite fishing spots during that sucker run season. And families had set up camps during that season for harvesting those chuam, and that was, that was such an experience that affected all of us in terms of the communal attitude, the spirit of collaboration and partnership that we had as family, internal family members, and external family members, in making sure that we gathered what we wanted to gather in order to preserve that for, as food supplement during the rest of the year, particularly during the winter months. And we set up camp there and I can remember my grandmother and my aunts and my mothers, and my mother, during that first day of the chuam season, you know, looking down river and seeing as the sun came up behind us, and flashing down on the river glancing off the top of the river surface, my grandmother, I can remember grandma saying, "look down the river, what do you see?" |
| [2,20] And we can see the fins of the, of those big sucker fish because they were so deep in the water and they were coming up so profusely that you could see the backs, their backs glimmering in the sun and those fins glimmering in the sun as far down river as you could see, which was down the Highway 97, because it turned left like this. And then she'd take us to the, to the water and show us how deep they were in water, well the Williamson River at that point isn't very deep, but they were still about 6, 7, 8 feet deep at that, near the bank there, and as far down as you could see, you could see the bodies of these fish, as they were swimming to their spawning grounds. And then, and then the harvesting of those fish was an experience because it was a communal effort and it was common knowledge, something that we were taught very, very early, that it was very important for us to gather fish; in fact it was kind of a spiritual mission for us, responsibility as I saw, as I recall it, to harvest those fish, because it was given to us as a means of sustaining our diets. And so we'd, we'd harvest those and we did in such a fashion that it was communal in nature. |
| [2,21] Various age groups had different responsibilities; the men pulled the fish out of the water with gaff hooks, or with nets and threw them up on the banks. The young men, boys, in fact, had responsibilities for picking those fish up off the bank and giving them to the next level of activity which involved the elder ladies, the middle aged ladies, who would, who would cut off their heads and cut off their tails and throw them in the boiling pots. And we had boiling pots, many of the families had boiling pots there on the bank because the traditional Indian people, like my grandmother and my aunts and uncles, they saw that as a treat and we ate the, they ate those at lunch time, or at the end of the day. They sat down and we all had fish. And then, so that, that was the next level of activity, with those young boys taking it up and the ladies then disemboweling and taking the entrails out and cutting the heads and tails off and then throwing them behind them. |
| [2,22] And then there was another layer, of young ladies generally, who had responsibilities, a combination of young ladies and young (?) who had responsibilities to hang those fish or to put them in the gunny sacks or to put them in the buckets and, or tubs in order to transport them back to their places for eventual, for preserving and for whatever fashion of preservation that they, that was common to their particular practice. And so, and as far down the river from where we were, as far down river to Highway 97 before it turned like this, and people disappeared from sight, that was what went on for a week. And then of course at nights, at nights a lot of people went home, a lot of people set up tents and they stayed there. And then, so that they were ready for the first rays of the sun to come up the next day. And so there were always plenty of stories and campfires to be told, and stories to be told, campfires that were lit and stories told 'til it was time to go to bed, which sometimes was well past midnight. |
| [2,23] And at that particular time of the year, if the moon was out, made it even a more meaningful experience because we were in the midst, we also very in close proximity to one of our spiritual places which was the old Shaker Church, which was just behind the camp ground across the Chiloquin Highway, and across 97 in the pine country, there was our Indian Shaker Church. And then there was a small community of elders who had lived across the Highway here, who had, who had always lived there. They'd lived there forever as far as I was concerned, and I can still remember those old little sheds and those little huts, those little small houses that they lived, provided by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, regular housing. And those elders took care of that old, that old church building, which looked like a big Catholic Church, but on the inside, was a traditional Indian Church which, much like a, well, it was a long house is what it was, but it looked like a white Catholic Church and on the, and we had a cross on the outside and a cross on the inside at the front of the room; but it was an open hallway, much like the long houses are today, and they had benches on the exterior like that; and it was a, it was a spiritual gathering place for us. |
| [2,24] There were a lot of important occasion: funerals and regular, regular practices of that tradition which was very difficult even then when I grew up because there was so many concessions that had to be made to the Federal Government that, to allow us to continue practices, much of the traditional way of religion as we had it, in our previous pre-Termination life, and there were some agreements that had to be made, that included putting a bible on the altar, having an altar and the sconces with the candles which was, which provided, we had electricity at that particular . . . much of the light was provided by candlelight and the sconces that we had the wall had, were constructed in such a way that they utilized wooden white crosses with, with a platform for the candle on it. But the old traditional way of practicing faith healing, which was a part, which was a basic part of that religion the old Indian Shaker Religion, involved singing and dancing and the laying on of hands and the treatment of people with various kinds of aliments at that particular point in time. That was located right across the road from this old traditional gathering place for the . . . |
| [2,25] So it was, it was a terribly meaningful area; and of course, Chiloquin being the hub, the hub community on our reservation, it was a very large community at that time, because it was mostly made up of lumber company employees, but there were a lot of houses, that were provided by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, because it was the hub of our reservation. And so a lot of our tribal people lived in that community as well as a couple of other communities spread out across the reservation. So those kinds of experiences is what this reminds of. And that's, the gathering experiences that I talked about, for huckleberries, at Crater Lake, the gathering, the prayer experiences, the, the steam house experiences, religious experiences . . . The mouth of the Williamson River, mouth of the Williamson River, on the edge of Klamath Lake was another one where the traditional ceremonies, celebrations, they were combination, they were combination wakes and celebrations, very similar to other cultures. They were very commonplace during deaths and burial situations, and it was not only a place to grieve and to extend final wishes to the person who's past away, but they were also opportunities to gather together, eat together, at lunchtime and after the afternoon internment ceremony. |
| [2,26] We spent all afternoon, more often than not, just meeting people and having and playing games and singing and that type of thing. I found, in the long run over the years, that there are many other cultures who have done that same kind of thing over the years. And so, that's what I think of, and that's why I wanted to refer to this. He goes on to say, our elders, and even though I saw our reservation as a very positive experience. Having been to other reservations, and visited with other people, I know that our reservation system was quite different from other reservation, other reservation experiences, and what I've read, what I've read, my education had provided experiences for me, whereby I've had opportunity to read about other experiences, and how dismal and desolate, and what negative experiences they were for Indian people. But because we were such a tight knit community, and we preserved as much of our, of our ways as we could, we were allowed to, by the Federal Government, we, I saw our situation very comfortably; one that lent itself very well to future growth and development. |
| [2,27] And then the other, he goes on to say, here's something else that brought to mind, he says: "our elders had a glimpse of something better, we know the stories of our people as they lived in the old life, there was dignity and there was a feeling of worth, there was an unspoken confidence and the certain knowledge of the past, of the paths they walked upon". And I've been asked many, many times why I was so different than their perception of Indian people. And in many cases, it was been very difficult for me to accept other people's, particularly non-Indian people's perception of Indian people, 'cause my perception of Indian people has always been so positive. And because I now realize it was because of what we were taught by our nuclear family, our aunts and our uncles and our grandparents, and my parents, who were strong. My mother was a full-blooded Klamath Indian, who grew up in a Klamath community; my father was a, was a Mexican and his period in time, he was a Mexican, American and very proud of who he was and very proud of his "Mexicaness." And so my father also was, because he was Mexican he was Mestizo, he was half-Indian and half-Spanish, and he remembered his Indian culture back in his, in his home country. And it was very easy for him to be, to be accepted by the tribal community on that reservation. |
| [2,28] What they gave us, I think prepared . . . we were very fortunate as, my brothers and sisters and I talk about this, we were very fortunate we had such as strong family unit. But we were just one of many strong family units that I grew up with on that former reservation. We had the opportunity, we had an educational experiences that was a little bit more extended than what too many of our, of people that I grew up with were allowed because, in order to accomplish that we had to leave the reservation, and that turned out to be very beneficial to us in the long run, because overall I think we wound up with the better education; but when he talks about what the elders had, a glimpse of something better and that there was a dignity and feeling of worth, there was an unspoken confidence, that's what we were taught and we didn't realize what we were taught until many, many years later, and my brothers and sisters and I talk about that today, quite often, is that when I think of where the Indian people in this country have been, and the experiences that they've gone through, I have to extend myself back beyond pre-European settlement period, I have to, and my times I've sat down and said, "ok now why, why have we survived for so long?" |
| [2,29] And why have we been successful in surviving in a cultural experience that pretty much could've done away, and, in fact, did do away with a lot us? And it was primarily because we learned to take our previous experience and move it forward and adapt as we needed to in order to survive, because that survival was always there, that certain need for survival was always there, and it was implanted there by our cultural experiences and by what were taught as young people and I, in talking to young people today, I have to share that with them, that what, particularly what I'm trying to reinforce that, the need for an education, the importance of an education. And I have to share with them that education back then; what did that mean? That meant that you learned how to string a bow, how to make a bow, how to use a lance, how to, how to preserve a fish, how to preserve elk and deer, so that you would have food to extend through those months when they were not as available. You had to learn how to gather, you had to learn how to prepare; there were so many things that you had to learn in order to ensure the survival of your people and the survival of your culture. |
| [2,30] So that's never changed. Education is always been a key need for cultures in general across the world and will always be important; but we like to, as Indian people, we like to look at ourselves as a unique people, which is not a unique thing for cultures to do anymore. But anyway, that's my belief, and so in today's world, in my world, and your world, and when I'm talking to young people, you have to continue to learn and value the need for an education. And you have to, because if you're intent is to help your culture survive, then there's no way that you can not look at education as, as a key matter. But we have to learn how to transfer those needs, how to transfer those educational kinds of preparation that we need in the old day, we don't tan skins anymore, we don't, there's no need for us to go out and hunt anymore; in fact there are laws and rules and regulations to prevent us to, to do a lot of those kinds of things. But we have to take a look at where we are now, and we have to adapt as we had always learned to adapt. |
| [2,31] We adapted in traveling across this country without any compasses and without any mechanical devices or anything else; we communicated with other communities and other, and this country and across the country. We found ways to communicate, even with the differences in languages and customs and traditions, we learned, we learned the importance of that, and that's what we have to do today. We have to, we have to take a look at where we are now, and we have to take a look at what's available to us now, and we have to take advantage of that, and take advantage of what's available to us today in order for us to help our culture and civilization survive. And so, that's just a transfer of thought and a transfer of methodology and procedure and process that will allow us to continue to grow, but at the same time it's very important that we remember the traditional thought, the traditional ways. |
| [2,32] And so we, and without the traditional ways then we don't know our roots, we don't know our base, of what, of what has driven us all these centuries towards . . . So that's what I think of when I read that, when I read Suwaptsa's. And when I remember my grandmother and my grandfather, my great grandparents, and my aunt and my nuclear family I can see them now, and I can hear them now and I continue to hear them now even today. And there are many experiences in my past, where by I've made mistakes in my life, like so many of us, but I've learned that that's pretty common amongst people, and so there's really nothing wrong with that. But what you have to do is you have to get through that again; survival. And you got find . . . I've been able to do that because of what I was taught in my previous, in my reservation experience and my family experience, |
| [2,33] I've been able to do that, because in getting involved with alcohol for example, like so many of our people have over the years and it's created so many problems for our cultures through the years, as a person who, who did grow up in a family situation, where we were discouraged from using alcohol to any degree. We were discouraged from smoking and all those kinds of things; still I found a way to get involved with that when I got out on my own. And I found myself at two or three periods in my life, with a serious alcohol problem and in reflecting upon, how did I make it through that, with the help of my wife, and in trying to gain an understanding of why did I make it through those periods of time and to this point in time, it became very clear to me, the reason why I was able to do that, because it was what I was taught back there and that, and that transfer, that transfer of what I was taught has occurred in me and really unique fashion sometime, maybe not so unique. I see it as unique, primarily because I can remember, on a couple of those occasions when I had made mistakes in my life that may have created really serious problems in terms of my overall survival and natural growth and development, I had my mother, my grandmother and various people that I knew on the reservation, elders who appeared to me, or appeared to appear to me who asked me those hard questions: |
| [2,34] "Why are you doing what you're doing?" you know, and who said to me, is, "is this your purpose? Is this what you prepared to do, is that what you're parents wanted for you? Is this what your grandmother would have wanted? Is this what your peer group would have wanted?" Because even my peer group, as I moved off the reservation and began excelling in athletics, and became well known for going on to college and getting an education, would come by and encourage me and would continue to counsel me. |
| [2,35] And so, those are the kinds of recurrences that would come back to during my periods, during, during periods of raising a family and going through the economic kinds of problems that people can develop, economically, in terms of making enough money, in terms of spending that money sensibly, and so forth. I look back, look back on those experiences, and a lot of that was because of the educational process that I've been able to go through that assisted me. But a lot of it had to do with what I was told and what I was taught. And the support systems that were developed for me internally as nuclear and extended families on the reservation; the traditional ways of thinking the traditional philosophies of what's really important in life. And so that's what I think of, when, as I read this. He goes to talk about his perception on what's occurred to us as Indian people and the negative forces that have impacted as culturals, in our natural growth and development that has resulted from the reservation, our experiences as reservation bodies. |
| [2,36] Our experiences in negotiating with the Federal Government, our survival, all the acts passed by government that involved limitations overall on our abilities, our natural abilities to survive; the land acquisition, regulations and rules, water rights, protection rules and regulations, social, societal influences on our traditional ways of living and those types of things. He talks about all, he talks about that, and I'm very familiar with that and what it does to you and what, what it had potential to do to you as an individual. But yet, I feel so fortunate, and my brothers and sisters as well, feel so very fortunate we had such a strong internal nuclear extended family situation that convinced that we had value, that we had dignity and that we had worth. And then, of course, that has been reinforced many times, not only by our nuclear and extended families and by our traditional way of living on that reservation, but it's been reinforced by other people, other cultures and other kinds of experiences. And I think that without that base development back there in our own communities that would have been more difficult to attain, to realize that you were in fact, have dignity and you have value, and you have worth. |
| [2,37] And so there is some of this that, but yet I don't know what his experience was, because I never had . . . I remember some of what he was trying to say to this, about his, about his experiences. But then he says, and then he moves on, and he says: "What is this upon my land? You hold out your hand you beckon to me, you come over in and assimilate, you say." And of course that, that request to assimilate, that drive to assimilate, was afforded many cultures in this land as the end to our, as the means to our ends. If you really want to participate and share in what's politically, economically and socially, then there's a need for you to assimilate. Of course we know, we now know that, that their perception of assimilation was far different of what we saw for the need to assimilation. But can I, "I am naked, I am ashamed, and how I can I come in dignity? For I have no riches, I have no gifts. You took them all away. What is there of mine that you value?" Well, we now know what it was that they valued on our reservation more than other. We continue to learn that lesson, even though we don't have a reservation land base. Most of that is gone, but they continue to want the water, they continue to want the land, they continue to want the natural resources, they continue to want the control of the mind and the philosophy. |
| [2,38] "And you took all of this away and what is there of mine that you value? My treasures are only memories and in many cases, for too many of our people, that's what they are, they're only memories." In our kind of situation, we've always had reinforcement internally amongst my brothers and sisters and I, as to what's most important to keep and to preserve in our minds and our souls and our hearts. And there are many Indian people like those people, that we know, that you and I know, that have been able to preserve that as well: the Bob Toms, the Dean Azules and all those other people that we know in our individual families as well as those people that we work with on a regular basis. And then he says: "Am I then to come as a beggar and receive all from your omnipotent hand? No, I must wait. I must find myself. I must find my old treasure." And that's what I'm referring to and relating to. We must, and that's what I truly believe, that must find our old treasure. |
| [2,39] "I must wait until you want something of me, until you need something that is me. Then I can rise and say to my people, 'listen they are calling to me, they are calling to us, they need me, we must go.' Now I can hold my head high and meet you as an equal and I will not scorn you of our past long gone." And I find that in today's world, very commonplace belief. We've gone through the civil rights era, all along with many other cultures, and we've gone through a period of time where we did a lot of finger pointing. And a lot of that finger pointing dealt with facts of what actually happened to Indian people over the years. I realize that, but I see now, Indian communities and in our community, the majority have gone past that stage, the need for us to point. Like he says: "I will not scorn you of our past long gone. Pity I can do without. My pride I cannot do without." And see that's where we are right now and that's where I am right now. "I can only come as one sure of his authority, certain of his worth, master of himself and leader of his people. I will not come as a cringing object of pity, I will come with dignity, or I will not come at all." |
| [2,40] And so that's where I see us today, and I see a lot of us, having reached that same stage of development in terms of Indian country and where Indian communities find themselves today after all these years of forced assimilation and integration and reservation, relocation, dislocation. I find, I find the majority of the communities that I've been involved with over the years have come to a new stage of development, of self sufficiency, by, we're back to where we were at one time. But we've had to go through a process, that allowed us to learn the need for us to adapt and change to our present situation as a means of ensuring our survival as a culture and as a . . . filled with traditional ways and never losing sight of all those traditional ways of thought and belief and practice that brought us to this particular point in time. |
| [2,41] And the Termination process for us created a lot of problems, it created a lot of problems. We, and the, we now know the Termination process was just another one of those government mandates and edicts, a new way of thinking about Indian people and we've had so many of them through the years, that we've had to deal with, that have involved, the establishment of reservations, that the involved the establishment of Federal Ward Status for Indian people, that established the need for us to adapt to an education system and enter into that education system that would pretty much do away with our cultural and traditional ways of thinking. And yet we were able to get through all of that to the stage that we are at right now, where those of who lost our reservation during the Termination period, now have the opportunity since the mid 80's as a result of the Restoration Acts, for many, many tribes in this state, we now have the opportunity to restore our community, restore our traditional ways of belief and thinking and practices and not be ashamed of who we were. And be able to bring that into the fold, as we move forward through, political, social and economic development, in a fashion that will allow us to be again a thriving communities, growing communities and that type of thing. |
| [2,42] I was . . . So that's what I remember, my reservation experiences is very positive because I was still a part of that culture, that was disappearing, but at the same time, there was still large segments of that early belief and that early practice. And that is what has sustained me in my own life, through the years since I left the reservation in the late 40's, to where I am now. It allowed me to survive. And that's carried me all of these years, that tradition and now know, in talking to other people in Indian country that the experience has been pretty much the same that, we've here because we learned to adapt. |
| [2,43] 1950, or when Termination occurred while I was in college. I . . . 1954, for the Klamath Tribe, one of sixty tribes in the nation who were terminated by federal mandate, primarily because congress had decided that they were ready for assimilation, complete assimilation of the culture. But the process for ensuring that, assimilative process for that transfer was, was ill devised in my opinion. It occurred to fast, and it occurred with very little preparation. That was true in our particular case on the Klamath Reservation. 1954 the law was passed. By the 1960 the reservation was terminated and no longer existed. That's just a period of six years to undo all that history, and prior to 1954, we were a growing, thriving tribal community. Economically we were, we were on parity, pretty much on parity with the rest of the Klamath Basin. As a result of Termination, and being thrust into this new experience, there's been no preparation, other than possibly a year or two of notification, and on reservation, meetings held by tribal people in an attempt to prepare us for that transition, into our new life, and there was so much that was left undone. |
| [2,44] That created a big problem. Our statistics in terms of life expectancy, our statistics in terms of infant mortality, our statistics in terms of alcoholism, and educational achievement levels, dropped significantly between 1954 and the period of Restoration, which didn't occur until the 80's, until the mid 80's. Our statistics which we were on parity with many tribes across the nation, and also our statistics in terms of our level of parity in comparison to the local community, had reached a point where we had developed a pretty comfortable lifestyle. Even if it wasn't completely to what we wanted, to where we wanted to be, or needed to be. We were very fortunate. We have been recovering since then, from that Termination period, with the development of the Self-Government policies, initiated by the Federal Government in the early 70's, the right to self government, coupled with the Restoration bill of the 1980's, and the right of terminated tribes to restore, to have their government restored, we've made a lot of headway. But we're, a lot of us are doing that without the land base, without the cultural environment that we had and it's been a very difficult experience for us. But we've learned and we continue to learn, and we've, we're moving very successfully, back towards a cultural base that will allow us again to extend our efforts towards survival. |
| [2,45] And there's so much that occurred during that period in time, that was so negative in terms of our existence and our survival skills. We lost, we lost so many of our people unnecessarily, so many of our people. I think the thing that we lost the most, was our cultural base. Our cultural foundation, that could only be sustained through continued long-term communal involvement, communal relations. That's the most important aspect. I went into students today on college campuses, and high school communities where they come to me an say how I find out who I was? And to me, that's so sad, that's so sad; they know, if they have this visibility and that's a factor I learned as a civil rights advocate, that the impacts of visibility, and that's something that we can talk about, about it another time. If you have this visibility, long hair, we learn that during the hippy culture, period . . . color is high visibility. There are secrets to surviving, that we need to teach and we need to learn and a lot of people have to learn those lessons, not just Indian people. |
| [2,46] Linc Kesler: Maybe that's something we can take up next day. |
| [2,47] Morrie Jimenez: I think that's something we can talk about and Tabby wants to be part of the process . . . |
|
Session 3 |
| [3,1] Linc Kesler: It's September 3, 2002 and I'm here again with Morrie Jimenez and what are you going to tell us about today, Morrie? |
| [3,2] Morrie Jimenez: Well since our last visit, I thought maybe we'd better go back and see if we can't put a little more organization in the comments that I made, with the comments that I made, regarding my tribal community. So initially I'm going to talk about the Klamath tribes, and it's, and give you just a brief historical background on it's development over the years. Then I'll move into the cultural reference where by I hope to tie in the impact of that life on the reservation with where I am today. We won't complete all of that, but maybe in a subsequent session we can talk about, extend that impact, personal impact, phase. |
| [3,3] The Klamath tribes, have come a long ways, like so many other native communities across the country, primarily because of the influence upon its natural cultural development over the years - the European influence. And all of, all the various political decisions that have made affecting and impacting tribes, culturally, socially, politically, economically over the years. And the Klamath tribe, like those other communities, have gone through those same kinds of experiences and like the traveler, which I cited in the other presentation that I shared with you written a friend that I had met, we've come a long ways, like many other tribes. And we've come a far, far distance. Since we were placed, since we were placed as a people on this Mother Earth. The Klamath tribes, made up again, a confederation of tribes, made up of the Native, the Indigenous Klamath population, and located in South Central Oregon. And the Modoc people, which were brought to our reservation from Northern California and Southern Oregon, and the band of Yahooskin Paiute Indians that were brought to our reservation, have occupied their indigenous areas in the South Central Oregon, and best archeological estimates over the past, what 14,000 years, depending upon who's, who's standards you're using, we have so many standards that have been utilized in trying to determine periods of indigenous populations. |
| [3,4] But today, the Klamath tribes, today, have evolved into a business organization. It includes policy making body, which we refer now as the Tribal Council, at one time we referred to, its original title was "The Klamath Executive Committee." But since Restoration, in the mid 1860's, or 1960's, we've adapted the traditional of our governing body, we refer to it now as "The Klamath Tribal Council." We have a tribal operations organization today that I can share with, I can share chart with you that will show you how far we've come into developing a typical Government making body, and have a general council membership of approximately just over 3,000 enrolled tribal members. And the reservation land base today, as compared to the initial land base, the Indigenous land base and the treaty reservation land base, now includes only about 390 acres. Which provides basic needs and areas of Government operations: health and family services facilities, cemeteries, and our casino land holdings at this particular point in time. |
| [3,5] The original land base of the Indigenous area included approximately 21 million acres in South Central Oregon so that Indigenous land base started as far North as, nearly almost to Bend Oregon where then we, we then stepped into Warm Springs territory, at that particular point in time, as far West as the ridge of the, the crest of the Cascade Mountains, as far East as the Snake River border lands, if you included the Paiute lands then you're talking about the Snake River Valley and then as far South as Northern California reaching into Modoc territory in Northern California and South Central Oregon. So it was, it was an area that encompassed approximately 21 million acres. The, the, the negotiated, the negotiated land base that shrunk almost immediately from that indigenous land base in our negotiations with Federal Government to approximately 13 million acres, which encompassed just a little smaller area than what I just described, then this was pared, this land base was pared to approximately 2.5 millions acres following cessions to the Federal Government, in exchange, of course, for treaty provisions. And final treaty ratification by the United States Congress resulted in the final land base of 862,000 acres plus, and this what, this is what was negotiated. |
| [3,6] This is the land base that was negotiated, and affecting the Termination Act which came later in 1954 and this land base, of 800,000 acres was lost to the Klamath tribes, as the result of another, and a long series of congressional acts affecting, not only our community, but tribal communities across the country. And that in itself is a story that I had to learn, in high school, and eventually in college and eventually post-college experiences I learned much about how, not only, the similar impacts that affected other tribal communities as well as ours: Federal policies, of every character and of every nature, all designed primarily to, to meet Government demand for land, Government demand for increased natural resources, Government demand that was required to fulfill population needs of the growing populations in the westward expansion of tribes. And so most of us were very familiar with that. Many of us are not. And that's been one of my goals in life, is to try to share information with other people who've not been aware, particularly non-Indian people who've not been aware of how tribes are impacted with the loss of their indigenous land areas, and how it effected them economically, politically, socially and even more so culturally. |
| [3,7] And that's been, and that's been my concern, is how all of these, how all of these political decisions made at primarily at Federal levels, but eventually at State levels, and at regional Government levels has affected tribes like ours in attempting to preserve what was most important to us. The greatest lost, I think, were the cultural loses. Yes, we were, there were considerable loss in terms of the economic impacts upon tribes, the political impacts on tribes, the cultural impacts on tribes, is what I'm most concerned about, because my work, I constantly run into people who've lost contact with their culture, and then losing that contact have created serious identity, identity problems and, identity problems interfering with, with self-development and personal development, with identification or who they are, from whence they came. And because of the civil rights movements in the United States, with the, although it's been cyclical in nature, we've eventually a stage of development in this country, that now allow us to spend more attention to our cultural, our cultural roots. Our cultural backgrounds, and there's no great danger now in asking the kinds of questions that we needed to, have, have been given the freedom to ask a long, long time ago. As a means of finding out who we are and those, and we're just beginning to realize how much of an impact that is upon those people that have been forced in those kinds of self-identification needs. |
| [3,8] And although we're not where we need to be, we're a long ways from where, where we were at one time, in terms of understanding the needs of people like Native American people who've gone through those kinds of experiences. As you look down, one of the things that really, I became more and more aware of and more and more sensitive to, because it led to my understanding of why things happen, and why we were impacted socially, politically and economically and culturally, is, I was just amazed at the number of policies when I started studying and when I started putting things into place academically. And all of the policies, existed just a numerous list, of policies, the commerce clause, that was impact, that was placed into the United States Constitution, that'd had an impact on tribes: rights of discovery doctrine, manifest destiny, policies sovereignty of tribes established, which made tribes subordinate to the US Government, trust responsibility. And when I think of the trust responsibility impacts I was, I think, I think now, of comment I just read in the book that was most recently published and who's, who's author Jeffery O'Gara made a comment in terms of Federal Government's trust relationship; in his idea, allowed the Federal Government to quash tribal actions it didn't like. and they did it, "for the good of the Indian people." |
| [3,9] And to me, I thought, boy that is so true, when I think of my personal relationships, and my personal involvement with our tribal Government and all the, all the negotiation and final decisions that were made to impact us as Klamath tribal people, and the end result of that is we lost the reservation. Our cultural base. We've been negotiating for Restoration, of the original, as much of the original land base as we possibly could in order fulfill our economic responsibilities to provide for our people. I think of the water rights issues that have impacted over the last few years, in terms of trying to negotiate the natural, the natural water rights that were a part of the, that were given to the tribes, and afforded to the tribes as a result of the treaty of 1864. And I think of the negotiations that we had to go through in order to achieve Restoration, with the Federal Government, and I think of the, the legal battles that we had to fight to preserve, our hunting, fishing and gathering rights. All of those kinds of things, just kind of reinforced for me what Mr. O'Gara was saying in the, in his, in his writings. And so I was very interested in what he had to say. |
| [3,10] As a result, as a result of the Termination act, for example the Klamath tribes, like approximately 64 other tribes across the country, were disenfranchised as a Federally recognized tribe. The tribes received a cash settlement for their former lands and resources amounting to approximately 221 million acres. And our tribe, that, that for those who elected to withdraw in the original, in the original vote on Termination, each of those people the withdrawing members, we wound up with, we wound up the political schism within our tribe, as a result of Termination almost immediately, because we wound up as having to identity ourselves as either withdrawn members, or remaining members. And the remaining members, those who didn't want to give up the land base, who wanted to remain as, as a, as a tribal unit, even though, the Federal Government said they could not exist, as a, as a former tribal unit. |
| [3,11] They elected to stay as a, the only option that the Federal Government offered that particular group was to establish themselves as a trust, trust group. And so they organized into the remaining, the remaining members organized into a trust group, and stayed that, a trust organization through the next, through ten years following years, following Termination, until such point in time as they found out that they, the trust organization was doing basically, was operating the same manner that the Federal Government was, under the original reservation organization, and then dissolved their trust base ten years later. And received a, a larger settlement really, in the long run, than the original people did, because the withdrawing group involved seventy seven percent of that original, you know, a large reservation population, enrollment figures and the remaining group, was just a quarter, or twenty three percent, represent twenty three percent of the original group and so as a result of being given their fair share, of what was, what was afforded the withdrawing group. Many years later, ten years later, that figure was considerably more, in terms of the individual allotments that were, that were afforded the remaining members. |
| [3,12] But the effects of Termination, were disastrous, in my opinion on the Klamath tribes: politically we were without a Government, socially we were without social services that had always been afforded to us by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Health Services over the years. Economically, we lost, we lost our mills, we lost our cattle industry, we lost anything that, that we were able to put together as a collective group of people, and were thrust into the general population to, to fend for ourselves just like everybody else. And socially, we weren't ready, in my opinion, we were not ready for that, in terms of our, of our experience in negotiating with the general public, with the general Governments, with local Governments, with State Governments with County Governments, and even the Federal Government again. We didn't have that experience because most of our decisions made for us, were made by the Bureau in years during our tenure as a reservation based group. |
| [3,13] That was so similar to what other tribes had gone through. The social impacts, sometimes bordered on the horrific, in terms of the social services that we once, health services, education services we were thrust in, at one . . . And of course in terms of education, in many cases, that was, that was not a great loss, because the educational services provided for the Klamath people, initially were, were offered and preferred in reservation, in reservation schools, and Indian boarding schools; our options were really, Indian boarding schools outside of the State, or Indian boarding schools within the reservation, or Indian schools that were provided by the Federal Government, and many cases what we were being, what we were being offered as an, as an educational, as an education quite often left out the need for identification of, that would include the, would include respect, would include relevance within the curriculum, provisions that did not include reciprocal activities between the tribal community and those who were providing the education, did not include responsibility, the aspects of responsibility that needed to be taught. And part of the reciprocity agreement that could have been built into that educational experience, that would have included responsibility from the family perspective, both nuclear and extended family perspective, responsibility to, on a basis of respect, that allow for identification of Indian people as, as having something to be offered, above and beyond what the Federal Government wanted to give to us in terms of educational goals, and, and initiatives. |
| [3,14] Just prior to Termination the Klamath's were judged by the Federal Government itself, as a model tribal community in the United States, and in fact, even though we weren't operating the way we wanted to operate, we still had achieved, we achieved a level of accomplishment that put us almost on a parity economically with the rest of the people in, in Klamath County, and although we didn't enjoy the social relationships that might, that we might have enjoyed at that particular point in time, our, the removal of the Federal Government's responsibility to provide for the Klamath put us in limbo. When they, when Termination was enacted, we were just thrust into the general population with no general preparation, and not a general acceptance either by the, the non-reservation community. That's something that, I'm going to have to spend more time with. |
| [3,15] The tribal Government today, receives today as a result of the Treaty of 1864, and the Restoration Act, Federal monies through the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and Indian Health Services again, so we're back to, we're back to that level of Government services again. And these monies that we received as a result of the Restoration Act, now provide support for tribal Government operations, primarily. But this source of revenue provided to the what, six hundred or so Indian tribes across the County, has never been sufficient to meet the needs of the tribal communities throughout the years. Never has. There exists in the, in the United States today, five hundred, depending upon whether it's Indian Health Services figures or the Bureau of Indian Affairs, five hundred to six hundred Federally recognized tribes who are allocated their share of existing Federal dollars on a competitive basis. And that's based upon total enrollments. Oregon is currently ranked fifteenth in total number of tribal enrollees. These monies as well, are directly controlled by the Federal Government, which requires that strict monitoring of operations and priority ranking give needs, involve final review by that agency. Again, the tribes are left out of the formula for determining what's best for tribes. And the exception to this form of control in today's world, and it differs upon tribe to tribe, but in this State, is the casino operations. Revenues from this source are used by the tribes to supplement tribal operations, in a manner allowing the tribes to determine their priorities as to how the revenues will be spent. |
| [3,16] And so this is just a general overview of how far we've come, we've come from, an Indigenous existence to a reservation existence, to a terminated existence, and to a restored existence, and now we're, we're in period of time, we're in a period of time where as the result of that Restoration Act and the Restoration process, we're now develop, we're now being asked to develop and redevelop economically, politically and social based upon where our priorities say we need to be. But those tribes that were terminated are trying to do that without a land base. They're trying to do, they're trying accomplish that, and from, from zero, because they don't have a land base and resources that once depended upon for their survival, are for the most part not accessible to them any longer. And so, they're being asked to accomplish a tremendous task with very limited resources that are available to them. |
| [3,17] Which brings me to, which brings me to the point of sharing with you the cultural influences of our lifestyles that have contributed, I think, to our individual and collective abilities to survive in that world of past and today's world today. I think we've been able to survive for the same reasons that we survived prior to reservation, prior to the reservation period, prior to the European settlement of this country. And we survived fairly well, although, although our population figures have changed significantly over the, over the hundreds of years that we've been involved with non-Indian people. We've still been able to survive. We survived in pre-European world because of our ability to negotiate our life experiences; we learned how to travel by the stars, we learned how to utilize Mother Earth's resources on a cyclical basis, we learned, we taught and we learned what it was that we need to survive in that old world, and we did it very, very well. And we're continually learning now through all those periods of intervention that have occurred over the years, we're still learning today and we will continue to learn. We've learned how to adapt to our present world which is what all cultures have to do. But we had some influences that impacted to do that over the years. And those influences created serious barriers to our natural ability to learn and develop, I think. |
| [3,18] And it's not, it's not been, what I'm sharing with you right now, I need to point out to you and the viewers that I share, there's only one person who has traveled his, what we refer to, circle of life path, from reservation-based experience to more pluralistic experience, what we are today, and I see us getting more, we're forced to deal with it on a more pluralistic base, the farther we get away from that, pre, pre-European lifestyle. It was not since my retirement from an active vocation as an educator, that I've had the time to reflect on my past and it's influence, and my personal growth and development. And in that reflection, have I rediscovered the values instilled in me by my cultural experiences on our former reservation, and how those experiences molded my overall development as a prospective whole person, fulfilling the circle of life responsibilities as taught by our elders. And a key value shared with us by our elders was that which focused on the sanctity of our relationship with Mother Earth and all that Mother Earth has to offer us. And, and I know that many other people that I know, both Indian and non-Indian alike, have learned those, but there're also too many that don't understand that relationship to that sanctity of life that was an inherent part of our cultural learning and our cultural way of living. |
| [3,19] And so one of the things that I would like to do today, is share with you an experience which never fails to remind me of the learned perspective from my childhood that sets the stage for personal reflection, and hopefully gives other people an understanding of what it is that has, that has contributed to where I am in my circle of life. And so I'm going to share with you, just a little bit of reflection, that personal reflection that I put together. And it goes like this: |
| [3,20] I remember the days when as small children we sat in family and community gatherings at the mouth of the Williamson River and listened to our, as our grandmother and aunt offered prayers of thanks and petitions of relief to our creator. And our grandmother and aunt provided for our family, our nuclear and extended family, that spiritual base that guided us in many, many different ways, by what they said, by they shared with us over the years. And as we prayed, I remember the grand vista before us, which served as our cathedral, on a clear and cool dawn or late evening dusk. Across from the mouth of the Williamson River and looking west, what you had in front of you, was the Klamath Lake and the Upper Klamath Lake, and the Agency Lake, and the Klamath Lake general, and across the lake, our cathedral included the view, vista of the Cascade Mountains, and its individual peaks, each with their individual unboundless stories of creation, mysticism, ethics and values, applications and humor. |
| [3,21] The vista starts, starting on the left included Shasta Mountain, in Northern California, which was, which you could view very easily from our vantage point, included the other peaks of the Cascade Mountains, Mount McLaughlin, which was very familiar to us, but had its own Indian name, which I can't recall at this particular point, which included Deer Island a place of mysticism, many, many stories about Deer Island, what occurred there, and why should go there, and why shouldn't go there, and that type of thing, of Mount Theilson and Crater Lake, Mount Scott, Diamond Peak, that was our vista, that was our church. As you sat there at the mouth of the Williamson River and you sat there for one reason or another, you were either having a picnic or you were, or you were there fishing at the mouth of the Williamson River, or you were there just for camping, and that, that vista which formed our cathedral in essence, was a very nice place, to enter into a spiritual relationship with those, with those beings, we refer to as Mother Earth, with our grandfather, with the our Creator. And it was, it was a place that really impacted you, in terms, in terms of what you were looking for. |
| [3,22] It was also a place where we celebrated, we played, the elder people played hand games, we sat late at night around the campfire, we sweated. We erected the willow sweat huts, and there where we sweated and prayed in the sweat houses, "spukles," we called them. Klamath people refer to those as "spukles," that's the Klamath name for sweathouse, and then the, the near proximity to the river and the lake, it was a place where you washed off the healing, the healing power of the waters, was a part of that process also so, that's what I remember. That's what I remember. |
| [3,23] That Klamath Lake, it's surrounding vegetation, willow, pine trees, sagebrush, spruce, (speaks First Nations word), a natural food of the Klamath people and the natural wealth, wealth of fish and wildlife. The dugout canoes used for life sustaining activity, the "spukles," which served as elements for physical and spiritual cleansing. I remember encampments at the huckleberry and wild strawberry gathering sites on the slopes of Crater Lake and Mount Scott where food stores were laid up for the entire winter months. And where spiritual presences of cultures were strong as you sat on the edge of Crater Lake and prayed and listened. I remember as well, the hunting expeditions into our ancient hunting grounds in the Klamath Marsh and Calamos Butte and Yamsay Mountain, Sun Mountain, the pristine and spiritual encompassing wilderness, where roamed deer, elk, bear, antelope and other of what we refer to as the four legged people. The dug-out canoe trips across the breadth of the Klamath Marsh in search of wocus, the abundance of beaver, otter, ducks, geese and muskrat. And in particular, do I recall the experience of observing my mother, my aunts, and my grandmother harvesting the wocus and participating in the winnowing, the preparation and preservation aspects of providing for ones family. |
| [3,24] And that, that image has always been with me. The image of, of being on the shores of Klamath Lake and the Agency Lake, where my grandmother, who owned one of the last dug out canoes in the community, had it stored, and my mother and my aunt, and my aunt, going out and gathering the wocus plants off the top of the lake, and then bringing them in and then, and then my brothers and I and other young people assisting in my nieces and nephews, assisting with the, with the preparation and eventually preservation of the, preservation process for that wocus. And the wocus staple that we utilized during the rest of the year, we stored that wocus in glass mason jars then. They used to store them in baskets, water proof baskets, but we, we didn't see any of that as we grew up, we saw the mason jars and then the wocus, the wocus was a staple, a plant that provided the seed base, which was ground, and then the meal was stored in those mason jars and a level of water was, the water placed within that to preserve that meal, was about a half inch to two inch more than the, than the amount of wocus that was in the jar. And you stored those in ground cellars, and then during the rest of the year, particularly during the winter months, it served as a basic staple for us along with the other foods that, that we hunted for, that fished for, dried fish, beef, deer jerky, bear jerky, wild fruits, those types of things were in those underground cellars. And we utilized those to, to supplement our, our diet over the rest of the year. |
| [3,25] I remember the experience of participating in all that harvesting. Including the chuam ceremony which I mentioned in one of our previous . . . the sucker ceremony, the annual fishing ceremonies along the banks of the river. And I can see, I can see clearly even yet today, the, even at this point in my existence, the early morning and late evening camp fires on the banks of the river, of those rivers, as they came together in Chiloquin. And I recall my family, among all the other of our tribal families, who by common tradition gathered on the banks for this annual ritual and set up tents and drying racks and preparation areas. And I remember my extended family gathering at the, at the waters edge, and giving thanks to our Creator for all, for this, for this harvest and for this celebration. And above all, I can see my grandmother and my aunt are spiritual leaders constantly teaching and telling us stories of things past and lessons that needed to be learned. |
| [3,26] I recall the human effort, the human coordination and the collaboration required in, in all of these kinds of events, the men and boys, the young ladies the, our elders, who together through collaborative effort were able, were able to, to share with us these experiences and, and were able to maintain a tradition that was very important and as a learning process to our, to our, to our educational development. I recall all of those experiences and still today, whenever I pass by the original site of the Indian Shaker Church which was located right across from that fishing site, a traditional religion laced with just enough of the required Christian dogma and liturgical practice to satisfy the Federal officials, concern that we protect ourselves from their perceived fear of paganism. And how well I recall my personal observations of the strength of the Indian Shaker teachings, in teaching each of us responsibility given to us by our Creator, to be of strong character and good will in our relations with the people of the four directions. And that we included always within our prayers, our prayers for each other and for others, and for the four-legged people and for, and the constant need to give thanks on a regular basis for all that our Creator shared with us and given to us. And also ask for his blessing in whatever it is that we try to accomplish in terms of personal and collective goals and aspirations. And strong prayers for our leaders, that they would have the wisdom and the courage and the perseverance to do what's needed to be done on behalf of their people. Prayers for the elders, prayers for the children, prayers for the ill and the sick and the dying. |
| [3,27] The need for, the need for us develop and sustain a personal commitment to developing, to sustaining a spiritual harmony within ourselves, as a means of ensuring that our children and their children develop a level of internal harmony that will lead to the fulfillment of our individual responsibilities, as contributing members of the circle of life tradition. And that's what I like the most, and I find that circle of life tradition, not only to be inherent in to our members of our community, but I found that in my travels across the country inherent in many tribal traditions. It's an inherent part of what they believe in this as well, that accomplishing this is the only way we can become whole people, okay? That able to live in harmony with our Creator, with ourselves and with all the beings, animate and inanimate, and from this belief in my opinion, lies the hope for our continuing development as tribal communities. |
| [3,28] These memories are memories of one who has lived the experience, what I have shared with you, represents only a small segment of my personal life experiences, and I can only share with my children and others these memories in the hopes that someday they would develop a renewed commitment to restoration, preservation, protection and enhancement of our cultural lifestyles, and also our natural environment. I think that is what has preserved our cultures and our communities and of course being a, being a student who has been able to achieve a college education and a high school education, and also have had the opportunity to do, to move about this country, move about this country in different parts of the country, and share experiences with other tribal communities across the country, I find this the thing that has surprised me the most, how common we are in our beliefs and these, and these traditional beliefs. And I think, I think it's really very important that we as tribal communities begin to understand that, that we're, we're not very different; even though we may have our own particular way of doing things, and even though we may have really believe that we are The People, that we in fact, are more common than we are different. And I think, and I think the closer we get to that, than the more we begin to practice that, the better, the better off we're going to be. |
| [3,29] I really feel, I really feel that I've been very fortunate in my lifetime, that I've had the opportunity and the benefit of having grown up in a traditional lifestyle in a Native American community. But also that I've been very fortunate that I've been allowed, that I've been afforded the opportunity to expand my, my belief systems. And my educational achievements by being, by being, by being involved with other communities and other cultural and other lifestyles. My father's culture, who was Hispanic, who was Mexican, and who became very well known within our reservation community, was always accepted for who he was and who was, was developed out of his own culture, the Mexican culture and he was always proud of who he was. And I saw him very well accepted by our tribal community and the Klamath Basin, and even more so than accepted, acceptance level that he was able to achieve within the greater population in Klamath County, the non-Mexican, and the non-Indian community. He was very well accepted by our tribe and our community, and very well respected by his own family. |
| [3,30] My brothers and I quite often, my sisters and I and my sister still living and I, my other three brothers and I spent a lot of time talking about his contributions to our family and to our community and the fact that he was so well accepted, although he was a Mexican, by our tribal community, was based on similar inherited characteristic traits that I don't think they ever discussed amoung themselves; but yet, I truly believe that what he displayed as positive character traits were very similar to what we grew up with, so they weren't that too far apart. He was, he was a manual laborer who had a high sense of responsibility and high sense of responsibility to family, he raised, you know my mother and he raised six children, seven children really, because my older half-brother was also a part of our family for a long, long while. He provided for his family, he did what needed to be done for his family. |
| [3,31] And, and that's what I saw also on the Native American side of our family, my mother was a strong willed person, who always saw the value of an education, who because she saw the value of an education also had a pretty good sense of the kind of education she wanted for her children, and so that's why we wound up going to school off the reservation for the most part, 'cause she was totally dis-enamored of the public school system on the reservation and saw a need for us to get a higher quality education even though it meant some terrible social adjustments that we had, that we had to make, and were exposed to. Experiences that we were exposed to because of her insistence, because of her strong 'willedness' which she transferred to all, to each of us. And my father's, my father's commitment and understanding of personal responsibility, which was also passed onto us, we were able to make it, in that non-Indian community and in that other community. And so we wound up getting an education off the reservation for the most part. |
| [3,32] And although my sister, I have two brothers and a sister that's still living that particular community, they survived, they're getting all very, very well because of the values and the level of responsibility were passed onto us. My mother, my father used to tell us stories, my mother always encouraged my father to share his culture experiences coming from Mexico with us. She saw that as a need, obviously, and so, and also I think she saw that as a natural inclination to make sure that he never lost sight of who he was and where he came from, and the he be given the opportunity. She learned his language, he didn't the Indian language, but she learned his language, Spanish language. He constantly, my mother constantly asked him to share the old stories of growing up in Mexico on a ranch and being a farm hand, a ranch hand, and responsibilities he had as a ranch hand and his flight from Mexico, and his coming to Oregon, and his working on the, in the railroads initially, and eventually in the lumber mills, and sharing his cultural, his customs, his songs, his dances. My mother and my father we were, really enjoyed each other and they respected each other and they loved life, they both loved life. |
| [3,33] I can remember the thing that we remember the most, my brothers and I remember the most, my older brother, I have brother just a year younger than I, my others are at least four or five years younger than we are, but my brother who's closest to me in age, we remember their, they loved to dance and they loved to sing, and they loved to have a good time. But at the same time, they did what they had to to make sure that their family ate well and they made sure that their family, and that was of course during the period of depression and the post-depression era when it was tough on everybody across the country, but at the same time, because we had a ranch on the reservation, and we had a father who believed in working and providing for his family, we, we never realized that we were supposed to be a depressed people, that we were supposed to be poor. And we didn't understand what that meant because our family took care of us. |
| [3,34] And our, and our Native community, our Klamath community, we took care of each other; the gathering of wocus, the fishing, the fishing celebrations, all that gathering of food and different kinds of food, that need for community gathering on a regular basis, all of that helped us move through that period of time fairly good, fairly well, and so even other members of my community that are my age, we talk about, we were born in the depression, that we were depression babies but at the same time, we really never knew how, what that meant. Because we, we were, we were a really close community in the Klamath tribe, we had to be, to protect ourselves, and to preserve what it was that we were trying to preserve, we had to work collectively even though we had political factions within our community, between the Modocs and the Paiutes and the Klamath and even inner tribe, inner Klamath Tribe, we had political factions that, that jousted with each other on a regular basis, or political philosophies and goals and objectives and so forth, we, we still were a very close community. And we looked out for each other on a regular basis and my brothers and sisters and I are, I think that's why we've still, we still feel that we're a tribal community and even after all these years and the Termination process, we still feel as ourselves as a very close community. And we still refer to us as Klamath people and are very proud of that. |
| [3,35] And I think that's, I think that was the worst thing about Termination was that it happened to the Klamath people, our people in the '50s for many, the people in the Western tribes it happened long before the '50s, and so when I'm, when I in having the experience, having the opportunity to work as an educational consultant to tribes across the State, I had many opportunities to visit with the young people on this side, on the Western side of the Cascades where Termination had been in, in existence for so much longer than it was for us. And I'm constantly bombarded by requests from young people to, for help in assisting them in finding out who they are and where, from whence they came, and how do I go about finding out what my tribe is and that type of thing. And it's even a greater critical need for those who have visibility, for those who are identified as being Indian, for whatever reason. And being identified in the greater population I found that, and this is true for all kids in general regards, for whether you're black, or Indian, or Hispanic, or poor, or tall, or short, or anything like that, if have a particular visibility, there's a tremendous need for them to find, for children to know who they are and from whence they came. |
| [3,36] And they can be convinced, I think, initially, they can get along fairly well up until a certain point in time, educationally, I think that that point in time starts about the 3rd or 4th grade, that through the 1st, 2nd and 4th grades in many cases beyond that, not too much beyond that 4th grade level students are more interested in just getting along natural inclination to get along with each other and help each other, but about the 4th grade they start recognizing differences, and of course there are many reasons for that, you know, parental, parental belief systems, social belief systems, they become more knowledgeable and more experienced and began looking and seeing things today, it's TV, it's all the news reports and everything else. But anyway, they begin to recognize differences and unfortunately because of their family experiences they're not taught how to deal with that and they begin creating problems for each other. In my experience, I think that's very recognizable, at about the 4th and 5th and 6th grade level, and unless you get help, and help to maintain a balance, a cultural, spiritual balance, cultural balance, political balance, it can get really bad, which, of course, has occurred in our country in the past, but now we're beginning to, now we've go through several cyclical developments of civil rights development that have, that have fostered and greater understanding and greater responsibility to share with each other, be responsible to each other, but it comes and goes. |
| [3,37] But in our tribal communities, I really enjoyed going back to our tribal community because if there are people still around who remember what I, what we remember, my brothers and I, they're good people to be around, the elders in our community. And unfortunately, we're losing that. I really think we're losing that and the people that I got to know, in the 1970's as a result of my involvement as my involvement as Civil Rights Director and Indian Education Specialist for the State, which put me into experiences with the remaining elders of all the communities in the State, so many of those people are gone. And I think that's an important loss to our tribal communities. Unless we're replaced that, unless we're been able to sustain that old traditional belief system, I think it's a critical element in our cultural development, in our social development. And that bothers me, that bothers me somewhat. I still run into a lot of those people who grew up in the same kind of tradition that I did, and it's really nice being around them. But I also run into those same kinds of people in other cultures, as a result of my experience and it's always, I always see that as a real positive experience when I run into those people. |
| [3,38] Linc Kesler: I have a couple of questions. |
| [3,39] Morrie Jimenez: Sure. |
| [3,40] Linc Kesler: Based on things you've said today, one of them just in the terms of what you just talking about. Do you think that the, the kind of elders that you're, you've just been talking about, is, has it been difficult for people to develop that kind of sensibility once the reservation land was lost? |
| [3,41] Morrie Jimenez: I think so, yeah, I don't think there's any question of that. The land, the land base and all that the land supported, the people, which is as spiritual, much of it was so spiritual in context, I believe, has created a problem. It's very difficult to make young people understand who don't remember that part of it, that, that part of their development. It's very difficult to be as responsive to the need for us to protect the environment and it's very difficult to talk to them about responsibility in the same fashion that we used to talk about responsibility, because of that lack of land base and the natural resources and all that, all that it brought to the people as a culture; the spiritual harmony that, I think inherently develops in people who are tied to the land, and all that it has to offer. Yeah, I think it's made, I think it's created a big problem in, in, in survival, in the survival aspects. We survived as a people, I think over the years primarily because we always had a, we always believed that, we always understood that. And during the period of Termination, for many tribes, during the period of relocation of Native American communities and the loss of their original indigenous land, we've moved farther and farther away from that, particularly as the Government made more and more decisions that removed farther and farther away from that base. |
| [3,42] And we've become and we've become more competitive in protecting, in developing our Governments, we've become more protective. The, across the country as I said before, there are over 600 tribes competing for resources with the Federal Government, that's created different situation for us, a political situation. That I don't think is healthy, and in our State we have nine tribal communities now, again competing to survive, and the casinos, the casino I think the development of the casino opportunity, and it is an opportunity for tribes, even though many of us don't see casino in the same light as the majority of our people do, we were, there were a lot of us who were concerned about using casino development as an economic development too. Primarily because we were concerned about, about the ethical, the ethical position; the value of utilizing other people resources to sustain our own development, knowing that the potential for addiction is really very, very high. And how it effects people morally and socially, it was a great concern to a lot of us who grew up in the traditional lifestyle. |
| [3,43] But at the same time, having no other avenues of economic development, the Klamath Tribe, for example, we had to accept it as a viable option to utilize and then, we rationalized that I think, personally, by saying well, but we can, we can, we can operate that casino, we can move into that casino operation and still operate within our traditional belief systems. And protect our people who have, if they need to protected and when they need to be protected and we can also do it a very positive manner. It doesn't have to become a negative experience. And at the same time, we're going to gain those economic resources that we need to develop our communities in other ways and expand our ability to provide for health services and all those other kinds of services that our people so seriously need. Terminated tribes have tremendous need for economic development, because they don't have that land base. At one time, we had 4.5 billion board feet of lumber on our reservation prior to Termination, that's just, that helped sustain our people and the fact that we were able to sell that timber, and lease timber lands and type of thing, and utilize it as a good economic asset, process for us. Ok, yeah, I think it's impacted us and I think it's affected us. |
| [3,44] Linc Kesler: I actually have a couple more questions, I'm wondering if I can pop another tape in here and maybe talk for just another couple of minutes. |
| [3,45] Morrie Jimenez: Sure that's great. |
| [3,46] Linc Kesler: Ok. |
| [3,47] Morrie Jimenez (new segment): I was the youngest member of that group, us sitting with our, the last of our elders, our political elders. |
| [3,48] Linc Kesler: This is in Washington? |
| [3,49] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, I sat with the last of the political elders on our tribal executive community, our claims, claims community then, in negotiating with the Federal Government in Claims Court over those five major issues that we, our claims against the Federal Government. And we still had, we still had remnants of our old tribal council still sitting on that, on that board as well, so that was a real experience 'cause I was the youngest member, I was just a college student, I was just out of college during that period of time. But I enjoyed it. Almost all of those people are gone. |
| [3,50] Linc Kesler: You know, when you were talking earlier you mentioned that right around the time of the Termination, that by the Federal Government standard, you, your tribal organization was kind of a model one, and I know that you mentioned before that, from the tribe's perspective, the relationship with the BIA was hardly a model one, there was a lot of dissatisfaction, but if they, I'm kind of curious about this, thinking about the, the Governments position in this, if they were regarding you as a model tribal organization then what was their justification for the Termination? Or was it because you were a model that . . . |
| [3,51] Morrie Jimenez: No, I don't think it was, I don't think it was something that they believed, I think it was just another, it was just another means for doing what it is that they wanted to do with the tribe at that particular point in time, and in congress we had people, from Klamath County Governments and as well as from State Governments, who were saying also, well the Klamath Tribe is ready. They may be more ready than anybody else. But I don't, I don't think that was an honest assessment. To me, the, my belief is that it was just another means, another way of getting what they wanted, ok? Getting the timber, and getting the water resources although we wound up in, since then in another serious political battle over the senior water rights in the Klamath Basins which the courts again have deemed belonged to the tribes, the senior water rights belonged to the tribes. |
| [3,52] Linc Kesler: Now in the contemporary situation? |
| [3,53] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, they said . . . the latest water rights crisis in Klamath County, which occurred over the last two or three years, the Klamath Tribe again through court decision was deemed to have senior water rights. But what we're talking about a water rights capacity now, that is quite diminished from what it was; senior water rights to what? I mean the, the water, the water has been siphoned off, it's been polluted, so what you giving back to us? Ok, and then, and then the conflict that we have with the water rights users in Klamath County, in Lower Klamath County, who claim water rights as well and the need, it's very similar to the situation in many places, where Indian rights and, and Federal and State rights come into conflict with each other. |
| [3,54] The book that I was just telling you about; that I told you about this last time, that was very interesting to me because, it encompasses a lot of the same kinds of political hassles that have been going on between Indian Tribes and Federal and State Governments over the years. State Governments claiming their rights, Federal Governments claiming, trying to protect Indian rights, Federal Government also protecting environmental issues and the need to negotiate with environment. Now the environmental groups are involved in this, you know, most recently over there, who knows, over the last half century, they've become involved. So now we have a number of factions all fighting for environmental issues and water rights, and land rights and those kinds of things. So, I think the Federal Government again, as far as the Klamath people are concerned, decided that it was time now to move the people into the general population. And of course, they not have any idea what an impact that was going to make on the Klamath people, were more concerned about the economic benefits. |
| [3,55] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,56] Morrie Jimenez: To the local community into the larger community. |
| [3,57] Linc Kesler: So on one hand you had some kind of ideology operating within the BIA that Termination and mainstreaming of the population was kind of an ongoing project that had begun with the relocation process. |
| [3,58] Morrie Jimenez: Right, I think it was a national, well there's no question, it was a national debate going on right now, and that's come, and that's been cyclical in nature. |
| [3,59] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,60] Morrie Jimenez: The general, certain segments of the general population who, who felt it was time, now to do right with the Indian people, the Native people, Indigenous people of the country. And that, that's come, that's come and gone in many ways, as you well know over the years. And I think it was just another phase of that. |
| [3,61] Linc Kesler: And then you had the local pressure coming from the people who were more interested in gaining access to the, to the resources. |
| [3,62] Morrie Jimenez: Right, to the resources, to the economic, potential economic resources that would benefit Klamath County in general, you know. And... |
| [3,63] Linc Kesler: There's so much irony in that, you know, you've spoken on previous occasions about what happened after the Termination, and the kind of whole sale clear-cutting that took place, a lot the timber and that, all of that timber was off-shored so that, in terms of the more general population of the region, the non-Indian population, there wasn't a tremendous economic benefit to most people. |
| [3,64] Morrie Jimenez: No, it, well, what they were saying is that, is that economic, that resource, the timber resource particularly, and the water resources should be available to everybody in Klamath County. And even though, in today's discussions, legal discussions that are going on now, it's still in the Federal courts and in the State courts, you know, the tribes have come up with their own information as to the impacts on the natural resources over the years. The tribes have found it to their benefit to develop their own studies. And so we, as a, as a terminated tribe, we still existed as, as a political entity within the former reservation boundaries in Klamath County because of our, because we were able to protect our natural fishing, gathering rights, hunting, fishing and gathering rights. That allowed us a, a political base that we were allowed to pursue with the help and then the assistance of, environmental groups and those people interested in preserving the environment. And so we got, we got a lot of legal help in putting together reports, whereby we can say to, to the water rights, to the water users in Klamath County and Southern Klamath County, well here, here we've got something to show you here, as a result of Termination this is what you've done with your, with your water resources. |
| [3,65] And this is what's happened to Klamath Lake. And because this has happened to Klamath Lake, because of the pollution involved, because of the fact that water users in the Southern Klamath, have been allowed to draw as much water as they wanted to, regardless of, of the impacts that it's having on fish and wild fowl and everything else, we've wound up with now a Klamath Lake that won't sustain a, a quality that will allow the fish to grow and develop. The water, the wild fowl, the waterfowl are disappearing, they're leaving because there's nothing there for them. And the fact that you've taken so much land and put it into farming area, you've drained natural areas that sustained that system. You've done yourself in, terms of the water rights resources, you've had more, you've had great impact on the usable resources. And what we're saying is that, what the tribe is saying, is that you know, given the opportunity to reclaim that, that water rights and, the water rights to that natural area and be able to establish a land base, we can control that, cause we know how to control that. And prior to Termination, we didn't have that problem in the Upper Klamath Basin, where the reservation was located. But since Termination because of the fact that the, the water, the water, the water rights have been extended to primarily the people in those irrigators and those agriculture people in Lower Klamath, you, your guys draw down on that natural resource is what's creating the problem. And of course you're not going to convince them about that. |
| [3,66] Linc Kesler: Right. Not too much sympathy for that. |
| [3,67] Morrie Jimenez: No. |
| [3,68] Linc Kesler: That point of view. |
| [3,69] Morrie Jimenez: But, a lot of the problems, a lot of the problems today too are internal problems within reservation, within our particular community. We have, real diverse political viewpoint, political perspectives as to what's best for the Klamath people. And I think, a lot of it has to do with the fact that we don't remember how important negotiating with each other was. We don't, we don't remember that, there's always been a place for respect in how we deal with people and how we treat each other. |
| [3,70] Linc Kesler: So, that, back when the reservation with intact, partially, probably this would've been true anyway, but especially because you were a confederation of very different cultural groups, you had a pretty much an ongoing established process of negotiating different view points? |
| [3,71] Morrie Jimenez: And I'm not saying that we didn't have different viewpoints, you know... |
| [3,72] Linc Kesler: But you had a way of dealing with them. |
| [3,73] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, but we had a way of dealing with it. |
| [3,74] Linc Kesler: Right, and that got compromised to some extent as the tribe was broken up by the Termination. |
| [3,75] Morrie Jimenez: Right because of the value that was instilled as a part, an inherent value of the, of the tribal community to respect each other, you know, is we can differ, but we can, but we need to be able to differ, maintaining that level of respect that we have for each other as people. |
| [3,76] Linc Kesler: So that's a set of skills that people are having to redevelop. |
| [3,77] Morrie Jimenez: Right, as a tribal, as a temporary tribal chairman for the Klamath Tribe, it really grieved me that I had to say to young people that they'd forgotten, they need to get back to that, to that level of respect that would allow us to negotiate with each other on a basis that would, that would create a positive situation, as opposed to being so negative to each other. And we were creating our own problems, we lost the ability to communicate at that traditional level in my opinion. |
| [3,78] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,79] Morrie Jimenez: But I think the, but I think what has happened since then, the, the impact of Restoration, since then, are bringing us back the fact that we're beginning to put the tribe back together again. But it's very difficult, given the fact that we only have less than 500 acres that we can call our own at this particular point in time. That we don't have the natural resources that will allow us to develop the economic base to move forward. We're operating, we're operating, we're trying to operate as a political entity, a Governmental entity, without a solid, solid economic base. And but we're, but right now, the, the Federal Government, in trying to negotiate the water rights issues in Klamath Basin, are even beginning to consider the value of . . . six hundred thousand acres of that former eight hundred plus, eight hundred thousand acres was taken over by the Federal Government. The other two hundred and fifty thousand acres and so forth generally were sold to private, private purchasers, mostly logging and lumbering businesses and agricultural units. But six hundred thousand of that acres was preserved, as Federal lands. |
| [3,80] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,81] Morrie Jimenez: And they served as watersheds, and they serve as, as protective areas for wild fowl and that type of thing, and forest lands. Ok, but the Federal Government has even, allowed themselves to think about ceding that six hundred acres back to the Klamath Tribe to serve as the reservation land base. |
| [3,82] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,83] Morrie Jimenez: Which it will then, would allow the Federal Government to fulfill their responsibilities, their commitment to the Restoration Act. |
| [3,84] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,85] Morrie Jimenez: To help tribes, tribes redevelop economically, socially and politically. |
| [3,86] Linc Kesler: And it would give you then the base to rebuild a more coherent social structure. |
| [3,87] Morrie Jimenez: Right, it would allow us to do that. Even given the fact that we don't happen to have that, that economic base, we've still allowed to because we have, we have, because of the Restoration Act, where we've been able to redevelop our Governments in a most elemental form, and produce a governing body and governing unit, and a unit, that again has the ability to provide social services to our people, on a smaller basis than we had in the past. And we're doing that, but it's also allowed us to reach back and begin preserving our cultural and heritage aspects as well. And that's been very important to the Klamath people, even though they're few people who speak the Klamath language, and more the fact that we have a capacity that we've, that we've developed a capacity to preserve as much of the Klamath language as we possibly can, in the form of dictionaries, in the form of teaching manuals and that type of thing, in forms of tapes, in forms of recording the old stories, that still exist today among our, those elders that are still with us today, and there so very few of them. It has helped us a great deal, because we've made that available to our general population in an attempt to, to reignite and restore the old belief systems, the old traditional belief systems and stories. |
| [3,88] Linc Kesler: Are there still a few native speakers of Klamath language? |
| [3,89] Morrie Jimenez: Very, very few. Yeah, just so few people still, still available that can teach that. Those can speak it we have, the majority of those, we're only talking about less than ten people. |
| [3,90] Linc Kesler: Wow. |
| [3,91] Morrie Jimenez: You know, we've hired, the tribe has hired, spent a lot of time in cultural preservation. |
| [3,92] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,93] Morrie Jimenez: Particularly in language, and stories and traditional stories and that type of thing. |
| [3,94] Linc Kesler: Was it the case, did Klamath have a generation of people had that happen, was it a generation that was sort of discouraged from picking up the language because it was thought to be an impediment to their progress in an English speaking world? Or? |
| [3,95] Morrie Jimenez: That, yes, that by a certain percentage of the population, but also it was a decision made by our, many of our elders during the reservation period, that it was an experience that didn't want to put their children through. My mother, and my, my family, nuclear and extended family, were a part of that group. My mother was punished physically on a, on a reservation school ground, for speaking her language. |
| [3,96] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,97] Morrie Jimenez: Ok, there was no way she wanted to put us through those same kinds of experiences. Ok? Many other tribal people on the reservation went through those same kinds of experiences and felt, and felt really that there was no need for the language. And it was a combination of that kind of thinking coupled with the combination of where are you going to use that in the world that we're moving into. That it was an identification, it was an accepted, and their own personal acceptance that the language is dying, that it was missing, that who are you going to talk to, that type of thing. And so it was a combination of factors that contributed to that. And I think it was, to me, Termination, was an unnecessary step, the way it was handled with our people, it was unnecessary. We could've moved forward, as, as the Federal Government wanted us to move forward, we could've become more assimilated in the long run, I think, without the Termination process. All we had to, all we needed was the, the freedom to do that, you know, the freedom that was, that was, that came eventually in the '70s initially and then in the '80s - Self Determination Act, 1982, allowed Federal Governments to determine where it is that they wanted to go and how to get there. But this is in 1982. |
| [3,98] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,99] Morrie Jimenez: And there's so many hundreds of years have gone, Federal intervention within our ability to provide for ourselves. And so it was, to me it was an unnecessary step, we could accomplish the same end, given, given a better understanding and given a better support system. |
| [3,100] Linc Kesler: And they, by, so what you are, you're thinking of and describing that, is people becoming, gaining more education, having the ability to function outside the reservation community and then develop things inside and so forth. |
| [3,101] Morrie Jimenez: That's exactly right. |
| [3,102] Linc Kesler: Yeah, but it's, what that process did allow was, with amazing speed, was the resource extraction, you know? I mean that's just, that's just amazing how fast that, that the time between the Termination and Restoration was not that great, but the transformation to the landscape was . . . |
| [3,103] Morrie Jimenez: Oh, oh yeah, and to me that was, that was the other critical loss. And it was the loss of the landscape, the loss of the land base and the natural resources. All of that were an inherent part of our cultural system. Our beliefs, our, related to what we were taught, how we were taught, it related how we related to each other, I mean it was the basis of how we dealt with each other. And with a loss of that, with the loss of that natural resource, that land base, it was, they take a big piece out of the culture. Really critical piece out of the culture and that's what most people who have not been a part of that experience find it very difficult to understand. |
| [3,104] Linc Kesler: That's... |
| [3,105] Morrie Jimenez: They don't understand this harmony of relationship. |
| [3,106] Linc Kesler: And it must be really difficult to recognize as you have another generation coming forward who has not had that experience, that not only is it hard to describe that process to non-Indian people, now you have the difficulty of having to describe that whole experience to a younger generation who hasn't been able to have it. |
| [3,107] Morrie Jimenez: But it's, but I've been around long enough to know on working with the colleges, since my work with the colleges over the year, particularly, you know at Oregon State and other colleges where I've been given the opportunity to speak with students, what I find refreshing is that because of the environmental issues that have been developed over the past how many years, fifty years seventy-five years, slowly but surely we're getting more people who all of a sudden are bending, getting to realize what we've done to our environment. And now who are gaining sensitivity in a growing number of people, who are gaining sensitivity about that critical relationship that once existed and needs to exist again within our communities. And I talk to students in college campuses that are obviously touched by what I was talking about and have come up to me and, and said how critical that it is the belief, how critical it is that we get back to that same level of thinking about, in thinking about the relationship that needs to exist, and responsibility that we have as human beings in preserving that and restoring. Restoring that system again, and I think it's unfortunate we have to reach a stage of development that we have in terms of pollution. |
| [3,108] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [3,109] Morrie Jimenez: Environmental damage, and that is about, eventually, but I think it's a positive thing that has occurred. But unfortunately what creates problems, of course is just like the, the bicycle in Portland this past weekend, and the environmental people who gather a regular basis that created the negative, the negative perception of environmental issues, and I don't see anything, I don't see much wrong with demonstrating, I'm not opposed to demonstrating, but I am opposed to violence and acts of terrorism and that type of thing. Because that wasn't a part of our, of our belief system. And so I think what, I am encourage by the greater number of people who are beginning the importance of preserving our environment. |
| [3,110] Linc Kesler: Well, what do you think, is that... good for today? |
| [3,111] Morrie Jimenez: That sounds good. |
| [3,112] Linc Kesler: Well thank you. |
| [3,113] Morrie Jimenez: Thank you. |
|
Session 4 |
| [4,1] Linc Kesler: It's September 10, 2002, and I was wondering today, Morrie if, you've talked at points in the past about how influential some of your elders were when you were growing up, your mom, but also your aunt and some other people. And I was wondering if you would feel like talking a little more about what those people were like and why they were so influential for you when you were growing up. |
| [4,2] Morrie Jimenez: Sure, it's, that's easy, that's easy for me, something as, very enjoyable for me to do and reflecting back upon my life at home and my relationships with my nuclear and extended families, and including my father, who's, who as I've already said before, came from the Spanish Mexican culture. And how similar relationships were in dealing with his background, the people from his background and his environment, cultural and human environment, and, and in comparing that my relationships with my mother and my aunt and my grandmother, who were the most influential people in my background. In terms of, in terms of establishing a, life long behavior patterns for me. My mother and my father both were, had high expectations for all of us, my brothers and sisters and I; and some that expectation dealt a lot with our responsibilities, in terms of how we dealt with each other as brothers and sisters, and how we dealt with others outside of the nuclear family. And it was shared with us in such a fashion that it was not a matter of lecturing to us, it's not a matter of laying down the law, or laying down the rules; it was a matter of just everyday relationships that established those behavior patterns. Not only for me, but for my brothers and sisters as well. |
| [4,3] And it's very apparent to me as I, as I visit with my family, even in today's world, my mom's gone, my aunt's gone, my grandfather, my grandmother's gone, my sisters, my brothers and sisters for the most part are still around. And in visiting with them, we spend a lot of time talking about the way it used to be and we tell stories about our mother's and our father's and our relationships with our aunts and uncles and grandparents. And a lot of those stories have to do with those behavior patterns that extended through the years, that affected our development, but also, our children's development, and their children's development, and how that's been passed down. And again it's being passed down simply by the way that you live your life, as opposed to establishing a set of rules and some tablets, some sacred tablets to follow by. That all came to us through stories that they shared with us that came through us, daily relationships, and involving expectations and where, their hopes where we would go and how we would wind up as adult people ourselves. My grandmother was an integral part of the family; she was not somebody that you visited on occasion. |
| [4,4] We grew up, of course, on the reservation. The fact that we were so close as a reservation, the reservation system kept us so close over the years, and we had to pull together; it was a co-operative, collaborative relationship amongst all the tribal members, primarily due to the wardship status that we were having to respond to during the reservation period . . . people constantly telling us how we should lives, how we should live our lives and what we should be doing, how we should be managing business and that type of thing. But the family relationships were something that occurred without mandate or dictate or anything else, it was every day living, every day stories, every day, every day explanations of why we should do what we do, and how we should do that, the reasons behind that, and it all had to do with, with the concern for each other and the need for, a need for an internal security, a community security amongst ourselves. And we've . . . self-reliance, self-reliance was one thing that we were taught, about the need for us to learn lessons that are carry us through life, but at the same time, self-reliance was something that involved also, the need for us, for a community relationship and a sensitivity to community needs, more than anything else. |
| [4,5] And my mother was a strong believer in that; my mother was a very strong, strong person. She was a bright person, that even though she, even though she dropped out, she just gave up on the educational system that she was forced to be involved with on, in the reservation schools, during her particular period in time. About the fifth or sixth grade is about as far that she went. I think the long term lessons that she learned in life, there's no question in my mind, the long term relations that she learned in life that she was successful in passing on to the rest of us, was learned as that, as the result of that day to day experience, living on the reservation, sharing with others and the community, and the daily responsibilities that families have to ensure that, to ensure that they survive, to ensure that everybody winds up sharing on an equal basis. She was not a very tall woman . . . used to give her a bad time about the fact that she wasn't so tall. But she was much taller than her physical appearance, look, and she was huge spirit in our life, huge influence. But primarily because of her strength, primarily because of the level of love that she had for other people and her belief, her personal beliefs regarding how people should treat people. But at the same time, how important it was to not people, not allow other people to disrespect you. |
| [4,6] That was something that nobody deserved to have, that you had to find some way to help other people learn the same lessons that we learned, that we were taught in terms of the need to be so respectful, to our environment, in regarding our environment, and so respectful of human life, so respectful of people's personal feelings and that type of thing. But at the same time, be strong, at the same time be strong, stand up for what you believe in. And those were important lessons for kids growing up on the reservation, for us and for me, particularly when I had, when I was asked to leave the reservation and move into another community. Twenty-six, although it was twenty-six miles away, sometimes felt like a hundred miles, maybe two hundred miles. And when I was asked to leave the community and go to college in Ashland which was sixty-five miles away, they, I know now in retrospect that the reason I was able to do is because I was taught very young about the importance of life lessons about survival, those life lessons about the importance of human relationships, the importance of harmony, internal harmony, spiritual harmony, harmony with your world, harmony that needs to be established with, with your spiritual world, with those people, with the creator who had responsibility for giving, sharing all of this with you. |
| [4,7] And (?) establishing harmonious relationships with, with others, in particular, with people not only with people, but with the four-legged people at the same time, which I found, in my travels across the country, was a very common belief system among Native American peoples: that they viewed all of life as, as requiring individual and collective respect in terms of how we dealt with that, in terms of how we moved within our environment and within the social relationships that we established, respect for yourself, respect for others, respect for your world and so forth. And all of that came from my mom and in, I spent a lot of time living with my Aunt Helen. Aunt Helen was viewed by the family as our spiritual base. Aunt Helen had a very strong spiritual belief system and my mother and my Aunt both wound up in the Christian churches and, of the various denominations that existed then in the early part of our reservation life: the Methodist church had a strong, had established strong base, there's a Catholic church that established a base in the Chiloquin community, and of course, the traveling tent shows involving all of those other people that came through, the different missions that came through our reservation in their attempt ensure that we, that we learned how to practice religion, and what should we believe in and everything else. |
| [4,8] But it was, it offered, it offered the individual members of our community, and back then, an opportunity to practice religion and also to practice religion as a proof that we were truly becoming assimilated. So that we needed to say to the government, "ok here we are, we're doing what you're asking for us." We had to do that with our traditional educational teaching, we had to that with our spiritual belief systems, we had to do, establishing political base systems, economic systems. The whole thrust of assimilation, that, was determined for us by the federal government, was determined to us by people with non-Native theologies and ideologies in mind, and political belief systems. So we were constantly being asked to adjust our traditional belief systems and in many cases we were asked to give up our language. And to me that was one of the really sad things, but not my mom, my mom sustained her belief system even though she practiced within the other belief systems because it was, as long as she did that there was no threat to her or to the rest of my family. |
| [4,9] To practice the old traditional ways, there was a threat; and in many cases, we weren't the only ones. I discovered later, many other Native American tribes, you were outlawed in many cases from practicing your traditional religions, and our, and most tribes were, you know, it was determined that you were going to speak the English language. And many of our people gave up on that as a means of providing security to their children, as a means of providing security that there was less threat of, of having, of developing negative relations with the non-Native populations in our community if you just said "ok," that "we'll do that." But my mother and my aunt and my grandmother and our internal family, nuclear and extended families, they maintained, they sustained their language, they sustained a lot of their belief systems; they sustained a lot of their customary practice and traditional way of doing things. And so, my brothers and I were very fortunate, I believe, because we wound up with that base, with that strong traditional base, although we can't speak, the majority of us, other than a few individual members of us, can speak the traditional, the Klamath language. |
| [4,10] We have, I have a brother, I have a sister who speaks a little bit of Klamath, and understands a little bit of Klamath; ok, she made the effort to do that. But the rest of us in our family, and on my age level or younger, we weren't afforded the opportunity. In many cases it was primarily because they did not want to, us to experience what they went through because, in trying to sustain their traditional ways and belief systems. My mother shared with me the fact that, the reason that she didn't teach us that, the language, was primarily to protect us. She told us this story once about, that was in, on the old reservation school, that she attended, they required, they changed their traditional way of dressing and so that they wound up with the, we wound up with the non-Native traditional way, custom of dressing. And, and wearing skirts and putting up your hair and wearing ribbons and wearing shoes and that type of thing, and not speaking the language on the playground or within the school setting. |
| [4,11] And one day on the playground, she forgot, and in exchange with another student, with another friend, wound up using the Klamath language, and, and one of the teachers brought her into the classroom and in front of the, after the recess period, asked, brought her up to the front of the room, and reminded the class why it is that they're not supposed to speak their language, whatever that reason was. And then to demonstrate how critical that was and how intent they were to enforce that rule, the school system was to enforce that rule, she was asked bare her, to unbutton her dress to her waist and then she turned her back and she was lashed several times with a willow in front of the school. And that kind of thing and many other kinds of behavior patterns on behalf of the non-Native people who were responsible for providing government, were the kinds of things that we had to deal with back then. And so to protect us from that, they just decided on their own that they weren't going to teach us the language, to make sure that we weren't exposed to those kinds of, the really, from our perspective really negative experiences. Public shame was not something was a part of our traditional way of dealing with each other. physical abuse was not the way that we dealt with each other as a, as a indigenous culture. |
| [4,12] And so, and my aunt, my aunt who grew up in the same family as my mother, obviously, they were very, very similar, in fact I had another aunt, Aunt Alameda who was, who was a, near the same age and the three of them were referred to on the reservation as the three musketeers, the three sisters and so forth because they were peas in a pod, in terms of the way that other perceived them, they were strong, they were all perceived as strong, spiritually based people who were community orientated, who did everything that they possibly could towards assisting in the community, in helping the community achieve their ends. Either their self-identified ends, or their self, or imposed ends, to what it is that they were expected to respond to in their life experiences. And because they still maintained a lot of their traditional ways, they were able to pass a lot of that down to us, that's why I can share with you stories, of the chuam ceremony, the sucker ceremony and how important that was to us. In terms of laying those, those traditional lessons down with us about why we did this and how we did this and how we do this. And how important it is that we, that we continually give thanks to our Creator for that, that came from that strong family ties within our particular family. |
| [4,13] And mom was, mom was the always, my mother was always the person who, who was high-energy person, who had a tremendous concern for her community. And was constantly sensitive to the needs of others and found some way to help other people. And her, my Aunt Alameda and my Aunt Helen are much the same way: they served different roles and different functions. My mom was a strong and high-energy, community-oriented person who didn't hesitate to go out and say what needed to be said amongst the people: she was, she was a teacher in her own way. And who volunteered for just about anything, as long as it was community based and community oriented. My Aunt Helen, my Aunt Helen served another role: she was also very strong person with her own family and helping her family grow up. And lot of people used my Aunt Helen as a spiritual resource, because she can sit you down and talk about and listen she was a good listener. I used my Aunt Helen for a long, long time up until her, until we lost her, but, as that spiritual resource. Even when I left the community and went to college and then eventually started my teaching career, which took my farther, and farther away from my home community, on many occasions I found myself having need for her support, to do nothing more . . . |
| [4,14] Because many times when I left the reservation my mom and aunt and my grandmother talked to me about my responsibility and what their expectations were in terms of how important it was for me to get an education; and how important it was for me to find some way to bring that back to help our people on the reservation and to help Indian people in general and how important it was that I learned all about what was out there, you know, and how to negotiate life off the reservation, because they could, they foresaw for a long, long time the fact that our traditional way, was going to be changed. Our traditional way of living, our traditional life was going to change and so, how important that was to help our young people get a sense of what was going to happen and also get a sense of what we need to do as individuals, in order to negotiate that new life experience, again, all centered about the need for us, for our culture to survive. And as, that's always been with me forever, the need to survive, for Indian communities to survive, for our, for my family survive. |
| [4,15] And so, many times Lois and I traveled back to the reservation when I was in Glendale, or I was in Medford and I was in Oakridge, I was in Salem and she was still living. I'd have this tremendous need to go back and have her reinforce for me the reason for my being and how important it was that I be able to deal with the negative experiences in my life, and, which came in different forms, in one fashion or another, in some cases, nothing more than a need to go back, because, to be with your people, you know, to be amongst, amongst your people, and the way, and what they believed in and the way they practiced life on a regular basis. And so invariably I'd wind, I have a tremendous need to go back and do nothing more, to visit with my Aunt Helen so she could reinforce for me again, the reasons for being and why I needed, I why I needed to sustain the effort. The way she put it, you know, "you're, there's a need for you to do what you've been asked to do." You know, and "because eventually it's going to be very helpful to your people and hopefully to other Indian people at the same time. And even though, and even non-Native people, you know, because they need to be exposed to Indian people out there at the same time." |
| [4,16] And so, and my grandmother of course, was the source of all of that, my grandma, my grandmother and my grandparents, and my grandma, their was the source of all that, obviously. I didn't get a chance to know my grandparents very well; my grandmother, Atilda, she was, I got to know, she was still with us. She was still very strong presence among our experience on the reservation, particularly for my family. And she spent time with Aunt Helen. She spent, her family, she spent time with Aunt Alameda and her family. She spent time with us, she came in and lived with us, for a certain number of days. And whenever she came. it was something that we really enjoyed because we got to learn. We got to listen to more stories, and we got, then even though she had a lessons that she shared with us, it was, the lessons she taught us were done in such a fashion that, that they were enjoyable experiences. |
| [4,17] And, but they all three could discipline: they knew and understood. They were the first people I know that, that felt there's a critical need for discipline. It was something that I, that I learned to adopt as well, how discipline is a critical part, personal discipline and discipline and a broader discipline that would allow you to exist within a society. I had to learn the fact that there were, ways to live, there were standards and rules and expectations on the reservation. But when I moved away from the reservation at, that fifteen miles into Klamath Falls, there were more things that I needed to know about responsibilities and how important . . . One of the responsibilities was to find out what it was, what the expectations were, and then find some way to negotiate that. And when I left home and moved farther and farther away . . . And I'd, and I say to teachers today, particularly Native American teachers how important that is, is that, to teach the importance of education, but also to teach about the, the importance of responsibility: personal responsibility, collective responsibility and all designed primarily to ensure that we survive in our new experiences. |
| [4,18] And our survival is going to guarantee the survival of our culture, regardless of how the culture had changes through the years that ultimately those inherent nature and traits and characteristics of our traditional culture will be carried forward, even though they may be, they may come in a revised fashion and so forth; but still the influence of all of that is what's driven and it's what's supported me through the years. And so anything, whenever I get an opportunity to give thanks to our Creator, there's always inclusion of that reference, to our family and particularly to our mothers and our fathers and our aunts and our uncles. I was fortunate, I believe, that I grew up in that kind of milieu, that familiar kind of thing. Because as a teacher and as an educator and a person who's, who's spent a lot of time dealing with numerous other cultures and numerous other populations, that's not always true, and my, I just marvel sometimes at how kids sustain themselves as well as they do without that traditional base, that family base, that we were fortunate to have. |
| [4,19] And I see that sometimes, I see reinforcements of that sometimes when I talk to, I talk to individual students, or, and particularly individual students whose cultural experiences, in the, when I, when we spent time together, I find are very similar to what I grew up with. And Asian American students who grew up in the traditional culture, the traditional environmental setting I find, I find very similar kinds of opportunities to share parallel thought, parallel experiences and that type of thing, and non-Native cultures and the majority populations cultures Eastern European cultures, children of Eastern European cultures. My experience at Algoma, as you recall, was a very diverse experience; the kids who grew up from those Norwegian communities and those Finnish communities and the Japanese communities, even though they were very small numbers of them back then. But Eastern European countries, Polish, I find a lot of those with very similar, similar experiences and expectations that were laid upon them. But we, the older I get, the, I think that I, I long for that, I long for those kinds, that's why when I finally, and I think it's, as something that's missing. I think that's something that we need to pay more attention to as family units. And as cultural groups, we need to reexamine where we are within those traditional belief systems. |
| [4,20] And all those positive things that occurred to us as we grow up and we need to find some way to bring them back in, and to make sure, because I see a lot of, I see a lot of troubled children, I see a lot of children, young people in the teaching business who don't have a sense of who they are and from whence they came. And I think that's really sad. And for us, the Termination process interrupted that, interrupted that. The federal government designating us as releasing us from our ward status which was a good thing, but at the same time, it, the Termination process, we were no longer Indians: our community ceased to exist as a, as a reservation community. Fortunately for us we never bought into that, those of us who remained in the Klamath County area continue to, can have continued to sustain as much of the traditional belief system, but it's difficult. It's been difficult over the years without, without a support, governmental support system to assist us in our efforts to sustain what it was that we thought and we think is most important in life. And in fact many cases created too many barriers for us to accomplish what . . . the loss of our language, the loss of our traditional ways, the loss of land, which was even more critical, and all that went, and all that went with the land base. |
| [4,21] It created, created a situation where we were being identified by others and eventually ourselves as non-entities. We no longer survived as an entity and as personal entity, a collective entity. It really saddened and angered me when I ran into other Indian people after the Termination process, that I met other Native American people who questioned our integrity, who questioned, based upon, and our existence as a native people, primarily because we allowed the government to do that to us. Well it was not a matter of allowing it to happen, it was just another one of those, as I've mentioned before, one of those federal mandates, exercises in authority, their power to utilize their authority. And so I found myself, in many cases explaining to other people and a lot of non-Native, I think that's sad we had to do that. Even other Indian other people that, hey, just because the federal government exercised authority doesn't mean that we're any less Indian than we were back then. And I've a lot of those discussions and I think it's sad. And I think it was a totally unnecessary. So Termination to me was a very negative experience, although I benefited from the fact that it gave me additional money to complete my education and to keep my family intact. And in the long run, in the long run there were a lot of people who were not successful in accomplishing that, because it happened so fast. |
| [4,22] Linc Kesler: When you were, you were talking about your Aunt Helen in particular, giving advice when you would come back, and she must have been aware, and it sounds like it was something that she and your mother really understood early on that the experiences that you would be having when you, particularly when you went off reservation to school and so forth, and then certainly on to college, were very different than the ones that they had had, and yet when you returned, even though you were coming out of this very different set of experiences, it sounds like she had, she still played a very important role in helping you direct what you were doing. And, was it primarily by, sort of reasserting the framework that what you were doing had meaning in terms of the, your family and a group, or, what else did she have to say to you about that? |
| [4,23] Morrie Jimenez: No, I think that's, I think that's very true. She talked to me about the importance . . . I was playing a role, I was fulfilling a mission her view. That was, should be a personal mission, but it should also be a, it's a mission that was a part of the old traditional belief system that what you gain in experience you share with everybody else. And it was very important in her mind because, my mother and my aunt both, Helen both, constantly shared with us stories of the great numbers of young people that we had lost over the years, as the result of personal experiences that developed out of the reservation system, the fact that we were never treated as people with potentials. And the level of expectation was so low for a lot of us and we didn't, we were a part of the Klamath County community but we weren't, ok? |
| [4,24] And that the perception that non-Native people had about us in general was a negative perception and it was a primarily negative because they knew nothing about us. They knew nothing about our history, our backgrounds or that type of thing. And there was tremendous need for us, that my mother did a lot, my aunt did a lot of that, a lot of correcting expectations that were wrong about our people and about our aspirations in life and that type of thing. My mother was, she was gifted; she was a good speaker, she was a good listener, and she had a great reasoning skills, and that she . . . that allowed her negotiate, to do what her job, of advocating, more than anything else for her people. |
| [4,25] Linc Kesler: And was that, was that primarily among other tribal members? |
| [4,26] Morrie Jimenez: Among the tribal members and also she was asked to speak a lot off the reservation in Klamath County because of her verbal skills and because of her sensitivity for people. She was never negative, she was never a finger-pointer. She was also a person who was well versed in the history of the tribe and well versed in the history of federal-Indian relations over the years. And so she was able to, to correct a lot of people's perceptions regarding, internally and externally, regarding where we've been, where we are now, where we want to go into the future. My aunt was the same way; my aunt was a very, was a very smart, intelligent person and also had another quality: she was, she had a spiritual base that was so obvious and when you talked to her, spiritual strength and inner strength that sustained her. And she was a very spiritual related person who saw the need, you know, |
| [4,27] I speak of our God as our Creator now because I, because of my personal experience with the non-Native religion and my need over the last twenty or thirty years to find a more traditional way of thinking about spiritual needs and spiritual practice and that type of thing. I bought into, eventually the non-Native religious system. I found a lot in the Christian religion, I found . . . but I also became a student in college of world cultures. And I also spent a lot of time reading about Asian cultures and Asian belief systems and traditional belief systems, the Hebrew culture and other, other religious belief systems throughout the world, and I found a lot of parallels within all of that study and with that, with that exposure and allowed myself eventually to, my wife and I've found a need, because she also recognized the need to assist our children with developing a spiritual base of belief system. |
| [4,28] And so we both became Protestant, Episcopalians, and members of the Episcopal Church for number of years. And I became so involved that I allowed myself eventually to even think about becoming a part of the clergy in the Episcopal Church, and was within a thumbnail of enrolling at Northwestern University to fulfill that mission to become a member of the clergy in the Episcopal Church. But at the last moment my work in Indian education detoured me from that; and as a result of that detouring thing, action, I wound up back in the tribal communities again doing educational consultant work, and started meeting again people who, of the traditional belief systems in the various communities that were still in existence, and that was my problem at home with the absence of my aunt, there was no, there was nobody that could remember the traditional belief systems that she was able to meld with the, with the existing Protestant belief systems and create a belief system and practice that she was very comfortable with that she shared with us. That's, that's a whole other story, of how people were able to negotiate that and still sustain their belief systems. |
| [4,29] Linc Kesler: I'm really interested in a couple of things you've just said about that. One of them was that, well, first you pointed to the traditional belief system and maybe at some point if you're comfortable doing it, you could describe a little bit what was important to you about that and what that involved, but also that, on one hand you've got your mom and your aunt, and your aunt who you describe as being a very spiritual person finding some kind of a way to amalgamate her, combine the Christian and the traditional system in a way that was fairly functional for them, and, but yet, in your own life you're describing a place where you really saw those as being kind of, it sounds like, as incompatible alternatives, for you, because of what they seem to, what they seem to be connected to in some way. |
| [4,30] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah and the . . . I think you put it very well: the incompatibilities that I saw within this, within this new system that I was practicing that I was stepping into and projecting a future with. I couldn't, I just couldn't live within in it. It all had to do with the way people dealt with people; this is primarily what it had to do. I saw differences between what their scriptures and their holy books and their holy statements said and were projec . . . I didn't have any problems with what they were saying because what they were, their teachings were saying was good and a lot of, I can draw a lot of parallels to what we were, what was shared with us in our learning situations with our grandmothers and grandparents and aunts and uncles, and what they taught us about how you should deal with people and our responsibilities to ourselves and everything else; that was no problem. |
| [4,31] And the need, and the need, the individual needs that we have to sustain our personal growth and development and to sustain our relationships with our communities. The need to be honest, the need to hard workers, the need to treat each other, treat other with respect and those kinds of things. The need to alleviate ourselves of all this hierarchical experiences that too many of the churches established in order for you to be a good Christian, good Episcopalian, a good Catholic and so forth. There was a need for you to accept, unquestioningly, the need for a hierarchical system that, that maintained, that maintained a level of clergy and their responsibilities and then there was another level here, and another level here. And you all had responsibilities and you had to go through this process and everything else. |
| [4,32] I think that's what's created the most problems, very simply put, for me, personally. What they were saying from the pulpit, and what they were preaching from the pulpit was one thing. How people took that in and how they responded was something else. And I saw, I was, I became increasingly disenchanted with what the laity, the way they practiced their religion. And I, in my work, in my efforts to move in that direction, initial efforts to move in that direction, I spent a lot of time working with some really fine clergy, some really, some really fine priest. And of course I ran into some that weren't as neat as the others. But there, I met a lot of really fine clergy, who to me, were saying what needed to be said. But I found a laity, that in many cases, weren't listening as far as I was concerned. And because they were listening, they weren't practicing what it was that they thought they were practicing. And within the, within the Episcopal Church, there's a definite hierarchy of responsibility and each one of those are well protected. There's a ladies group, take care of the altar, there's the clergy, there's the clergy level, there's the Board of Directors, the elders, and then the masses down here. |
| [4,33] And then even within the masses down here, that practice their religion out there in the main part of the church, in the nave, there were different levels of responsibility. And that troubled me. That really, really troubled me because it took me, when I started moving back to the community and started re-establishing contact with a lot of the traditional belief systems and the traditional. And they were simple things, they were simple things and the traditional way of coming into a church . . . it was automatic, you went around the whole church, that's why our church is in our long houses, we constructed the way they were in my opinion, in the fashion that they, everybody seated around the rim, around the edge, so that when you came in the door, as young children with my grandma and my aunts and my mom; the traditional way of, and this still happens at Warm Springs and Umatilla in the Long House, you took the whole family, you move around the perimeter and said hello to everybody and you even touch hands with everybody, saying, and it's just a matter of saying, "hey I'm here." And it's a matter of the other people say, "hey we're glad you're here, glad to see you," and everything else and that type of thing. |
| [4,34] And in the manner in which we, prayers were offered, not only for the people, but also for life in general and for everything that that Creator has shared with us over the years, we give thanks on a regular basis. We recognize the elements, the physical, and we recognize the spiritual, and we recognize the elders, and we recognize those who've gone on before us, laying those foundations for us, that allowed us to achieve our goals, and achieve our ends. And the "hands-on" kind of healing practices that don't exist very much, don't exist much anymore. But when I grew up, the hands-on spiritual, the belief in a spiritual healing, the hands-on experience, those, that kind of thing is what I missed. I really, really missed because I really think it made us, I think it helped to create that bond that I missed. The longer I spent away from my, that experience, the more I missed it. And I think that's what created the need for me to go back on occasion to be reinforced. |
| [4,35] And my aunt was very good at telling me, well yeah, but the world is changing and you need to change with it and you've got to find some way to replace a lot of that, a lot of that need that you have. And it can be done, you don't need a church, you don't need a long house to practice what it is that you believe in. You're sacred landscape goes with you wherever you are. The sacred landscape . . . and that's why I was so interested in the Sacred Landscape Conference, because it took me back to a point in time when my aunt used to imply that your sacred landscape is with you wherever you go. And it's just a matter . . . you sitting down and saying, and in your prayers, in your daily prayers and locating your sacred landscape, cause it's there, or it's here. And it's just a matter of sitting down and letting it come out. You know, and you can immerse yourself in your sacred landscape on the street when you're walking. And she, my aunt, told me that, wherever you go on the street, driving, your sacred landscape never leaves you. |
| [4,36] Linc Kesler: A little interruption there, but... |
| [4,37] Morrie Jimenez: No problem. |
| [4,38] Linc Kesler: The perils of being on batteries. Well you know, the, what you're just describing is so interesting in some ways because she was giving, it sounds like she was giving you really high quality advice in how you could strengthen yourself to work in an environment where you didn't have the supportive community that you grew up with to support your spiritual, your sense, your spiritual sense of yourself, and a practice that would help you with that. And so she was saying that you could carry that within you. On the other hand, you also, in describing that, you've also talked about how important it was to you to go back to where you had that as a place, and as circumstance, and a group of people. And she was, sounds like she was really thinking about how you and people in your position could negotiate a world that was away from that initial circumstance, when you went away from the reservation. But I guess she left with, to some extent with, it sounds like she left you with a problem; which is how do you recreate that for the next generation? Or how do you make, how do you find a way to make that continue because their experiences will not be yours, just as yours were not, you know, were not hers. Because you entered a new circumstance and she had been thinking about that. |
| [4,39] Morrie Jimenez: Well that's an interesting question, interesting perception because you don't know how many times I've thought about that. And, over the years and even most recently, now I've, particularly during the period that I've had time to retire and move away from my really active life. I've had time to think about those kinds of things. One of my other things, as my aunt, and I'll try to answer that So one of the other things that my aunt said, is that there are experiences out there, away from the reservation that you can, that are very similar to what, to what your life experiences here. And she was saying there are people out there, who feel the same way that you do, that have grown up in a different lifestyle and a different cultural belief system and cultural experiences. There are communities out there and there are pieces of communities out there. And don't think so much about those experiences that are creating problems for you and in many cases she implied that's wasted effort really. What you ought to do is deal with the positives in your life and locate those positive experiences. And find some way to share those positive experiences, and in the long run you'll find that there were more similar then different. |
| [4,40] And she's talking about cultures and other peoples and everything else. That she truly believed that there were good people. She truly believed that there were other people out there, away from the Native communities that had good thoughts about Native peoples and were willing to work with Native peoples. And so, really don't waste your time with the negatives, waste your time seeking out the positives . . . and they're there. She truly believed that. And so she really had a positive sense about people in general. She had a positive belief system about the good in people, that inherent good in people. And I think that's helped me a great, great deal because when she shared those kinds of things with me, my mother did the same, same thing. My mother didn't waste time with negatives. She was always moving in a positive fashion and that type of thing. And, and I realized that years later, how influential she was in, influencing other peoples thoughts and garnering other people's support for what she was talking about, what we needed to be done, what, in terms of reservation, internal reservation experiences, and external relationships and that type of thing. |
| [4,41] And so, and so that, that helped me a lot. And so I started doing that, I started seeking out those positive reinforcements that my aunt really believed existed in other cultures. And she, low and behold I found that out. And I found out in my, as a I grew older and older and older, that there were a great number of people and experiences out there that were very, that would support what I was looking for in life. And the church on the one hand, the formal church, the Christian church, on the one hand, offered me bits and parts of that. Because I ran into a lot of good people in the, in that experience, when I moved back into more involved in the communities again, as an educational consultant on my retirement, I rediscovered that. And I found myself, in my own mind, I said to myself, my aunt was right. And then because she said to me also, which is a very traditional belief in a lot of Native American cultures, that your circle of life, if you live it the way it should be, if you're able to, if you're able to get through the ups and the downs in life, and you're able to continue to sustain the good things that you've been taught in life and share that with other people, then eventually you'll fulfill that circle of life. And when you get, and ultimately that's going to lead you to wholeness. |
| [4,42] And I found that in reading in my readings, of course when I finally became an adult and I became, I became reignited again with the desire to fill in the holes in my personal background, in my personal belief systems, and I started reading about other traditional cultures and then eventually, running into more and more material developed by Native American people who were sharing those thoughts and those belief systems with others. And of course that always hasn't been, they haven't always been able to do that, you know, to the degree that they are today, I was just amazed by the similarities and what people, what I was taught and what I grew up and the kind of experience that I grew up and what other Native peoples . . . and that was a really reinforcing feeling for me. But at the same time, in accepting what my aunt was suggesting and I should be able to do, I was beginning, I was then beginning to see that in other people as well, and the people from other cultures and other systems. And so I've learned now to deal with the positive aspects of life. And don't let the negative things throw me so much. But that's not been an easy, it's not been an easy job. |
| [4,43] My life experiences as an educator lead me through a lot of experiences that, that could have ultimately set me back to the reservation, set me out of education. I was fired once in a particular community where I was teaching. And that could have been the end of that piece of my history, and that piece of my life experiences, except for my wife who refused to allow me to do that, and I wound up here in Salem in 1960, still in the teaching business. And ultimate result of that, is that I wound up having a, fulfilling what I think what my mother and aunt's mission, felt, was laid out for me. And because even though I was able to go back and share with my family my experiences out here off the reservation, that was, even though I was able to go back and share with other tribal members, 'cause they've always been interested in what I've been doing and, "where are you now? And who are you involved with? And what are you doing that's a positive good to other people in general." They always want to know that. |
| [4,44] And, but since my retirement from an active career, an active vocation as a classroom teacher, and education specialist, consultant, and being able to move back over the last fifteen years, back with more and more contact with the communities as an educational consultant, I really feel now, I'm beginning to understand why it was they were saying to me, offering the support to me that they were at that particular time. Because ultimately I think they always believed that if I, if I was able to fulfill what they felt my mission was in life. And where that came from for them, I don't know, other than the fact that I think that's, that was an inherent belief system amongst them. Ultimately in the long run I feel very good now about where I've been and what I've accomplished, even with all the downs in between. I feel very good that I've moved closer to fulfilling my circle of life mission. And as a result, in that traditional belief system that I find refreshing to read in other cultures, you achieve, you achieve wholeness. And I think that's the ultimate mission for a lot of us, is that we have to find some way to achieve wholeness. But we've got to be able to define wholeness. And I think that's what my aunt and my mother and my family did for me. They defined wholeness for me. What it's going to take and what it is that, what my goals in life should be. |
| [4,45] And here I am, you know, much, much later in life moving in a new segment of my life system. And I'm very comfortable with what was laid out for me. I'm very comfortable with where I've been and what I've done. There were times in my life when I wasn't. And fortunately for me, I had people that I could rely on to go back to and visit: my mom, my aunts, my brothers, my sisters, who were able to reinforce that for me, that you do have a mission. We all have a mission. And I think that was an important part of what were all taught as children, as young people, my brothers and sisters and the rest. But we, on many occasions, we had that interfered with in one fashion or another. Termination interfered with a lot of our people's perception of who they were and where they needed to go, and that traditional belief system, because it, it implied that we were no longer people. You know, that was the greatest doing away with cultural land base and all that created serious problems for a lot of our students. |
| [4,46] Now that we're a Restored tribe again, I see reinforcement for that belief system, by, when I go back and I see them trying to reestablish our government, restore the land base and fight for their water rights. And I take a look at their new health buildings, and their new facilities there. And I read their educational goals and everything else that. You know, I think they've come a long ways and I think they're back on track again. And I see that happening with the Grand Ronde community over here. They started off with a very small group of people who were trying to have their government restored. Now they're a community again of over three times the number they were at one time, and a very effective, very, community, group of people. |
| [4,47] So, my aunt, and my nuclear family which has to include my father, lay the foundation for all of us, my, I have a brother. I have a brother who's very active in tribal government, right now serves on tribal government. I have another brother whose, whose viewed across the state as a person that you can, you can talk to, a good listener. And wherever I go in this state, that's the first question that's always asked of me, is "how is Allan, where is he now, what's he doing?" And even though he's never completed his educational training. You know, in terms of the traditional thought about what K-12 and college career and everything else, he's never fulfilled that, that much of a life experience. But he's a very influential person in the state, for his community and for the other people in the traditional . . . they know who he is. And they know he's a good listener. And they can, and they know that he will offer counsel, and he's not a young man anymore, as I'm not. I find that hard to believe he's old as he is. |
| [4,48] My sister who, my sister's in the same fashion. I see in my sister so much of my mother and my aunt. And I have another sister, who's no longer with us, but I see across our nieces and our nephews and I see the influence of my mother and my aunt had, and even my father. Because I knew my father and even though he was not perceived as a Native American person, he was perceived as a very good person. And a very strong person, a person who provided for his family, and he was by example, you know, a positive influence on us, obviously and because he always did whatever he had to do to support us. |
| [4,49] Linc Kesler: Maybe this would be a good place to stop for a second so I can change the tape. But I have a couple of questions [OK] to ask you. |
| [4,50] Morrie Jimenez: It's a good place to stop. |
| [4,51] Linc Kesler: You were talking a minute, you've been talking for awhile now about your mom and your aunt and you also made a reference to your wife, Lois, as someone who, when you were experiencing some problems with your teaching work, who sort of kept your nose to the grind stone, and keep you involved in your profession and so forth. And it struck me, again, you referred to your father at the end and acknowledged how important he was as well. And you've talked about him a couple of other times as well . . . but in describing the particular set of values that you've been talking about today, it's kind of interesting that the women figures are so important. And I'm wondering if that was a circumstance that was unique to your family or whether that was something more broadly true in the culture, in the reservation, that women played that kind of a role, or... |
| [4,52] Morrie Jimenez: Well that's interesting that you've come up with that question because my wife and I talk about that quite often, an observation that she makes every once in a while. She says, "why is that you have so many women that you work with?" You know, and you know, we talk about that and we've tried to, we've examined that and say, "jiminy crickets," you know, and you come to think about it, in my lifetime, particularly in working with state agencies and tribal units and everything else, I have found myself over the years working side by side in coordination and collaboration with so many women figures, female figures. And when, in our discussions, you know, "why is that," you know? "Do you not have any" . . . like Lois said . . . "do you have any idea why that's happening?" And I said, the only thing that I can, the only thing that I can access is that, when you examine the individuals, people that I've worked with that are female, in many cases you see traits of my mom or my aunt or my wife. And in many cases, they're the same kind of people in terms of their willingness to collaborate, their willingness to partner, their willingness to take on a job. |
| [4,53] Their willingness, the particular females that I've worked with, their willingness to do that as cohorts. And they're good listeners; they share very well with other people. They're very sensitive people. And so what I'm saying is that maybe those characteristics of those people that I've worked with, females I've worked with, exhibit and demonstrate by their behavior many of the traits that I recognize as, as family traits. And they're strong, they don't hesitate to take on a job. And they don't hesitate to share. But they do that in such a respectful manner. Their respect for the individual, respect for the group, respect for the people that they serve. And when I look back over the years, Lois and I, in beginning examining that, those relationships over the years, we find all of those people so similar in character and trait, and behavior patterns. And we can trace that back to the strong female figures in my past. And they were not just only member of our nuclear family, but our extended families as well as other members, other strong tribal members in our community. |
| [4,54] The old Shaker Indian church that I grew up and spent some time, the old traditional church system, the elders of that particular church, for the most part, 90% female. They were tribal female members, and they were all loving, caring, sensitive people, strong people who were taking care of their own families and so willing and so willing, by natural instinct, to serve the community in any fashion. I can remember one of those elders who was also, who was also seen and identified as a person with leadership capabilities, particularly at social gatherings, and she was, she took care of all the cooking and the cooking crews and feeding the people in the masses because we ate in, during general council sessions, we ate lunch sometimes, we ate dinner there sometimes. And we had a dining hall that was built, added to the general council hall where we did all our meeting work. And Clarice Lotches was, took care of all of that. And you never, you never refused a request to roll up your sleeves and help; that was something was taught, it was an inherent, you know. And if you didn't want to work you stayed away from the kitchen and stayed away from the dining hall because you, once Clarice said, well get busy there and do this and do that, you did that. And that was very common amongst our community. |
| [4,55] We had other elders who did, a lot of them were females who took on those responsibilities. There were people who took care of burials; the burial part of that, the religious ceremonies and lining up the flowering girls, identifying the pallbearers, making sure the pallbearers get their flowers on their lapels, and assigning responsibility, who's going to, who are going to be the pallbearers and who's going to do this at the cemetery plot and who's going to handle the shovels, you know, when we were involved in the process of the internment of the caskets and that type of thing. And once you get the, and, of course, the shovel bearers were anybody who wanted to do that. And you did that regardless of whether you were a family member or not. You know, you did that because that was, that was the traditional part of the way we helped each other. And so at the ceremony, everybody, you had numerous people who volunteered to come in and handle the shovel, mostly males. And then the females for the most part, were flower bearers and they take care of other kinds of business. |
| [4,56] And then when there were people that had, had special responsibility once the internment was completed then you had just a mound of dirt there were finishers, who were assigned people, who were traditional finishers, who squared off and contoured the top of the mound and made places to insert the flowers, and other ladies who helped set the flowers on the burial mound and that type of thing. People who had responsibilities for marking, for working . . . we had individual responsibilities, who had specific responsibility for, as they begin filling in the grave site, for marking the, marking the middle of the grave on this side, the internment side, marking the other side and marking the corners, and then making sure that those people stayed within those boundaries, so that what you wound up with was a symmetrical mound initially and then eventually it's a very symmetrical planed site and that type of thing. And people, people to transport caskets from inside, outside and people who took care of the cooking when we got back and people who took care, who did nothing more than to make sure that everybody came by. They had special people, generally female, who made sure that everybody who was attending the church service would take the opportunity to come by and visit with the family and type of thing. |
| [4,57] And then there was a natural responsibility after the, and I've seen this in other cultures as well, then you had a dinner afterwards. And the dinner's the place to release those emotions. At the dinner is the place to share, and type of thing. And then we had people who made sure people did that type of thing, and encouraged people to, encouraged young people, helped the elder people to get that, to take care of their, their desires and their wishes to meet with the family and that type of thing. And we always had people, young people, who learned that, that we had responsibilities to the elders, the people who were unable to take care of themselves. And so, many times, you know, I can remember being told by the people who were in charge, lot of them female again, "ok now here's a plate, you go fix a plate of food and so and so is out there and they can't come in, sitting in the car out there by that pine tree, so you make sure this meal gets out to them. And ask them, you make sure that you check with them that they get something to drink and make sure that you get their stuff and bring back in when you're through." |
| [4,58] That kind of thing was a common traditional way of living amongst our community. It was so close, it was so sharing and sharing kind of community. And in my line of work here as an educational consultant working with institutions, college institutions, school districts and so forth, I've run into so many people that I've worked with that are willing to do that kind of work, are female. And when you look at the Deborah Cochranes, and look at the Rose Hills and you look at the Marian Merciers, or you look at the Lou Farrows and they're the younger representatives of their particular community. And a lot those people have been doing that for years and years and years are female, are female people. And there's a trust, there's an inherent trust quality that I've developed over the years for, and I've been very fortunate, I've been able to identify, you know people who have similar ilks and characteristics and traits and everything else. And it's been, it's been a real pleasant experience to work with those people over the years. And that doesn't, and that doesn't mean I haven't run into a lot of male figures, cause I have. |
| [4,59] But the female figure, I think, the female character is something that was, that I've, that I've accepted as something that I, that's very important to me. Primarily those who demonstrate and exhibit characteristics and traits and practices that I can trace back to my mother and my aunt. And I haven't done that directly or indirectly over the years, it's just happened, just happens. I have also run into other people that I chose not to be around. And it doesn't take me long to chose those kinds of people, although I still have an inherent, inherent responsibility that was born, that was shared with, by those same people, to not exclude those from my concern at the same time. So I don't know if that's what you're talking about, referring to. |
| [4,60] Linc Kesler: No, thanks very much. It was great. Well do you, anything else you want to add today, or should we . . . |
| [4,61] Morrie Jimenez: There was something that I thought of while we were talking just a moment here. But I don't recall what it, it'll come back to me at a later time. We can do that at a later time. But there was something that popped into my mind just prior. Well, as you were asking the question, you had made a comment regarding another issue. My father, that was it. My father demonstrated those same kind of traits, those same, and he was a very strong male figure, male model for us. And it was, it didn't have anything to do with "macho-ness," being macho, demonstrating your maleness or anything else. It had to do, it was, I remember my father much like my children remember their grandfather. And they don't remember a lot about him, but they remember him very much. And the thing that they remember most about him is his humanness, and his kindness; but yet at the same time, they know that he was a very strong person. It's obvious just by the way he sits and by the, the way he carries, carried himself. |
| [4,62] And we used, we told a lot of stories about what my father had done to support his family and ensure that his family got clothes and that they had food on the table, and the jobs that he had to do, when the lumber business was going out in Klamath County, what other kinds of jobs that he had to take on to ensure that his family . . . and we all talk about as family members the sacrifices that they made. But we don't, we don't see that, none of us see that as, as an apparent need. Or how do I want to say this, we don't see that. We see what they did for us as just as an inherent part of their nature. They did that because of who they were. And my father demonstrated had always demonstrated a lot of that same caring, loving concern for us. We see him as a very loving, caring person, but yet a strong person who did what he needed to make sure we got what we, where we wanted to go. And it was so much sacrifice, that did in fact take place, that we have become and more aware of over years, in terms of making sure that we had clothes, and making sure . . . |
| [4,63] I can remember, I look back on it now, and I think of the amount of money that they spent to make sure I had a suede jacket and that's a small thing to a lot of people. But back then a suede jacket was very expensive. And the reason that I felt there was a need for that because I was Klamath Falls living amongst the different culture and a lot of those kinds of material things were very important to that particular culture. Whereas in my previous experience on the reservation, even at Algoma, it wasn't, it wasn't, that wasn't the important things in life. And I always marvel at how my mother and my father put up with so much of that from us growing up as children. But they understood that children are children. And, but at the same time, they constantly, you know, shared with us our needs to take a look into the future at the same time. That there are other kinds of experiences we were going to have to, where we going to have to accept the fact that we were not going be able to get whatever we wanted in life. And that nothing came easy. And anything that can easy you had to be suspicious, you had to be suspicious of. Because that's not life: life is ups and downs and other kinds of experiences. |
| [4,64] And the key to that, the key to getting through all of that is making sure that you, every time you had a down, you had an up. And if you did that, and then ultimately if you did that successfully, then you could be judged as successful in life. But you won't know that until much, much later in life. So that was, that was another belief system too. That life was an ongoing experience. And by, ultimately at the end, if you keep in mind everything that you've been taught about people and how you deal with people and about your responsibilities in this world as it relates to the world around you, that ultimately you'll fulfill your mission. It was something that we were taught. And I, I hear that from my brothers and sisters, even today. How's that? |
| [4,65] Linc Kesler: It's great. Thanks. |
|
Session 5 |
| [5,1] Linc Kesler Morrie, I was wondering today if you could talk again a little bit about some of your experiences during your childhood, particularly the ones that surrounded the lake and the harvest from the lake, and the way all of that worked, and in sort of a cultural way too. |
| [5,2] Morrie Jimenez I think, as I think about your question, the thing that comes to my mind most frequently is my need to reflect back to those earlier influences in my life that has affected not only my personal development, but also obviously has influenced in some small fashion my children's development and my relationship with my wife and others from the tribal communities. It takes me immediately back to my life as a very young person, because I eventually wound up beginning to leave the reservation at about the age of 14 - 15, and eventually leaving the reservation for greater periods of time after I graduated from high school or during the period I was in high school and my graduation, and that time until I went back to expressly expose my children to whatever was left of that early cultural social lifestyle in an attempt to help them establish a base of identification for themselves as individuals. |
| [5,3] So that period of time that I'm talking about is between the time that I was born in 1933 through today, and through that time, when in the late seventies, when I did take my children back in the hopes that they could recapture and be exposed to some of that. And so being born on the reservation at the Klamath Agency ground, those influences started very early, what with sharing in the daily living experiences of my family, both nuclear and extended family and members of the other tribal families on that reservation at Klamath, which bordered the Klamath Lake. |
| [5,4] The reservation in my recollection is something that has always been with me: the physical characteristics, the cultural experiences, the social experiences and even the political experiences that sometimes we all like to not spend too much time with. If you know anything at all about tribal politics, like other governments, there's the good experiences and the bad experiences and the questionable experiences, the positive experiences, but more often than not I think the cultural experiences are the ones that I spend most time thinking about. I was influenced by the landscape that we grew up in. The Klamath Reservation was bordered on the west side by the Upper and Lower Klamath Lake and the Klamath Agency. The Agency Lake is a huge, huge body of water and of course contributors flowing into those three lakes systems are also a part of that play a big part in our cultural and social development: the Wood River, the Williamson River, the Sprague River, which was a little bit eastern and it joined with Williamson River at Chiloquin, which is the population hub in the reservation. |
| [5,5] The Wood River ran into the Agency Lake which is the upper part of our reservation that was bordered as well by the Cascade Range Mountains, beginning in the north with Mt. Scott, which was the eastern most edge of Crater Lake. It was the highest pinnacle on the Crater Lake area, and then moving west and then south, we were also bordered on the other side of the lake by Diamond Peak, Diamond Lake area by Mt. Thielson, which has history on both sides of the Cascade Range, as I discovered much later in my experiences as a teacher, when I wound up in the community on the other side, and Mt. McLoughlin which is a long history to the Klamath people because it's directly across from the reservation and across the lake, and was so apparent as were all those lands. The other small islands and the lake to the southwest and also Shasta Lake although it was in northern California had history with us where stories were told about us. |
| [5,6] On the eastern side of the reservation, we had the towards the Snake River Canyon towards the state of Idaho extending almost halfway across that basin, and of course we had Mt. Yamsay on the northeast corner of the reservation which served as a cultural base for us. We refer to it historically as the home in the north wind, and so there were stories that were told about that particular . . . Calamus Butte, which was situated just east of the Klamath marsh area, which was in the upper part of our reservation, the natural wildlife refuge at that particular point in time and very important with the Klamath people historically because there was so much history in terms of sustenance, and in terms of spiritual holy place, and in terms of offering, and being a centre of hunting and fishing, hunting for water fowl, ducks and geese and fishing of all kinds, and also a base that offered for us a huge, huge supply of tules, a natural growth in the marshes in the river systems and in the lake systems, a natural vegetation that we refer to cattails, tules and that type of thing, and the tule fronds offer to the Klamath people a tremendous source, resource in the fact that it was harvested and many parts of it were utilized to make baskets, to make mats. |
| [5,7] The fronds on themselves, the cattails themselves, were used to stuff material and, like a down fabric after it was harvested and treated and used it, to stuff animals or to, as ornamentation for dress, for hats, for clothing and that type of thing. But I could remember the baskets that were made out of the tules, tules reeds, and the tule fronds, by my grandmother, my aunt and my mother, that were proficient, that were water tight baskets they all had, they were all made with designs of some sorts and were dyed in many cases, and were really beautiful productions and handcrafted, were baskets and hats and capes, and then of course they also served as mats for the inside of your houses, your early housing, which included a cellar type of huts, or for your spiritual sweat houses many times were covered on the outside with tule mats and also the floors many times had mats on them. So there were a great number of things, the beaver pelts, the otter pelts and that type of thing it was such it provided such a rhythm. The Klamath marsh itself provided so much for the people held a very strong place in their belief and their tradition. |
| [5,8] And then southeast of that region of course, and then you went south to the California border and you moved into a little more high plateau dry area region. We had a lot of Piute people who, that was their centre of population, and then the southeastern portion of our reservation, because it was more for . . . part of it I'm sure had to do with the fact that it was more familiar terrain to them, having, the Modoc people and the Piute people having lived in that type of geographic region, as opposed to the region that we lived in on the western borders. The Yahooskin band of Piute people were traditional high plateau, high mesa region, Snake River country people, bands of the Shoshone Utes, lived in the Columbia basin in high plateau region for thousands and thousands of years. The Modoc people came to us from northern California, lava beds region, Goose Lake region, and it was also a more arid high plateau area, so that the south eastern corner of our reservation had its own history and its own tradition. |
| [5,9] But where we grew up here on the Klamath we grew up on Modoc Point, which is another geographic region, and occupied the south western corner of our reservation, beginning about Chiloquin and extending down to Klamath Falls, lower Klamath Lake. Our boundary line ended at Modoc Point, and Modoc Point had farmland, and that's where we lived on the farmland along the lakeshore of Klamath Lake. It ran into, as you moved northward passed Modoc Point, which is only in an area of about 5 - 7 miles long, then you move back into the timber country, which was the predominant kind of geographic geography in the northern part of the reservation, and that's when you moved into the river systems and you moved into the hill country and mountain country and that type of particular geography. So you can see that the thing that influences me most and the thing that I think about most are those geographic conditions, and of course the natural resources of our particular area. We had such great resources really grand resources. We had, at the time of termination it was determined that we had four and half billion board feet of timber on our reservation with about one and half million board feet of that virgin timber. So we lived in a really pristine wilderness area that had several kinds of geography, predominately being the timber area and the water basins and that type of thing. |
| [5,10] At Modoc Point we were allotted lands, our individual families were allotted lands, and we grew up there, and great numbers of our Klamath people grew up there, as well as, they did in the upper regions, and the southeastern regions, and so forth. We grew up as a diverse community of Klamath, Modoc and the Yahooskin people, and the smallest of those populations were the Yahooskin and Modoc people because many of the Modocs were allowed to move back into the traditional area, but significant numbers of those Modoc people were shipped off to Oklahoma, because of the fact that they went to war against the United States in an effort to get back to their country, and the Yahooskin people were a much smaller band of Piutes, and traditionally, the United States government in setting up those reservations, just picked up those little bands and stuck them on the closest reservation, and so they wound up, both Modoc and Piutes wound up on what was viewed and believed to be traditional Klamath territory. |
| [5,11] We got along because we had to get along. We didn't have any choice, and we got along, but I think a lot about it, because our traditional way of socializing included a tremendous need to coalesce our efforts in an effort to protect what we thought we wanted to protect: our resources, language, customs, traditions, and that type of thing. At Modoc Point, because we were situated on flat farmland, our view and our little ranch house on our little acre, 164 acres, was had an uninterrupted view of the Cascade Range and an uninterrupted view across the lake, although we were back from the lake edge about a mile or two. You knew it was there and you could see the glimmer, the mirage effect of the water across the basin there, and we were a very close community within another close community, the reservation being a close community, because of the political situation that we had to deal with in order to survive. So we had an inherent drive to sustain our culture. So it didn't take long for us to amalgamate, to view ourselves as one people, although internally we identified as either Modoc, Yahooskin Piute, or Klamath. Among the families there on Modoc Point, and this was also true farther up the lake at Agency, on the Agency area, where we had other tribal allotments, and even true on the eastern side of the (?). You relied upon each other. |
| [5,12] We always thought that we should be farmers, at one time, and so we learned to raise hay, we learned to plant crops, we learned to raise cattle, and eventually the majority of our people became cattle people, cattle ranchers, and not so much farmers. It was more amenable to our tradition to raise horses and cattle than it is to plant crops and raise them and take care of them, although we had some fine farms on the, we raised hay, we raised a few cattle, but mostly for our sustenance, for eating, for food. Our horses served a purpose also that we did have, our horses were work class, or we had a few, we had a number of horses we used to ride, and to race with, and to have rodeos with on the reservation. At Modoc Point where we lived, we had access to all the natural resources in that particular area of our particular region; we had rivers and streams and irrigation canals to swim in and to fish in, to boat in, to canoe in, and that type of thing. We had horses to ride, and being on our own reservation it was very common for us that we had a few horses, all the families had horses for the most part, as young people. |
| [5,13] One of our favorite pastimes was to get on horseback, somebody initiated somewhere at Modoc Point or even in Chiloquin, which is only six miles away, and start picking up people as you travel down the road. For example, we had friends across what is now Highway 97 and they had a big ranch. He was a cattle rancher, Jim Johnson, and his family, and they raised, they took in a lot of tribal kids and helped them out, and adopted a lot of them, and helped raise them. So we all learned how to pick up hay out of the field, and how to drive a team of horses, and how to ride a horseback, and that type of thing, and so it was a very common for us when we got our free time to saddle, to, and get on horseback and drive across and pick up some other people, and ride down a little bit further, and pick up some more people, and then go to the store at Modoc Point, where they had the Modoc Lumber Company, lumber town, mill town, which had its own store like it was so typical; I had mentioned before about the Algoma situation. Well, Modoc Point was a very similar kind of situation; another lumber mill brought in by a private enterprise, where it established a huge mill complex at the other end, where we had tribal people who did work with, and a huge majority were non-tribal people around those mills, but they had a company store so that was really good access for us to get our pop and our candy and that type of thing, but it was also good access for us people at Modoc Point to use and utilize as a retail centre for themselves. |
| [5,14] Then you'd ride your horses down to the corner pick up some more people, farther down, pick up some more people. It was very common practice for us, down in our region, and I know it was also true in the eastern part and the northwestern part of the reservation for young people to do this kind of thing. Horseback riding was something that was very natural activity for us. We'd wind up at the, driving north on the old highway along the lake, and visiting people, and picking up more people, and going down the river at Williamson River on the old highway, where we had another store, general, a retail store, that was developed and managed by non-Indian people, and it was very common and they had a little part there, not a large part, a little part, where you could tie up your horses, and it was alright if you swam off the docks there, and that type of thing. |
| [5,15] Swimming in the Williamson River was an experience that all of us remember when we get together, because it was not so much swimming as it was jumping in and get out as quickly as possible, because the natural spring water of the Williamson River was very, very, very cold water. It was a place where we could get a candy bar and a bottle of pop and sit and visit and have a good time, and then begin a reverse trip back to our individual homes, and that was common practice among tribal people. We had a lot of good horsemen on the reservation. But the, and then we also, another spot that influenced our, all of that activity, that communal kind of activity, was a natural part of our tradition. We played together, we worked together, we shared a lot of experiences together. The old Williamson River church down there that I spoke of, was established, we refer to the Williamson River church, it was actually the Williamson River Methodist Church. We had several Methodist missions that were established on our reservations, of course, the intent was to Christianize all of us as quickly as we possibly could, and make sure that we were walking the proper path. |
| [5,16] We utilized those churches, because they were open to us, and they were because of the fact that we couldn't practice our traditional way, our traditional religious ways, we were more or less forced to adopt Christian way and for many of us, for many of our older people it was easier to go ahead and adopt what was given to us than it was to fight the system. Fighting the system, I was not a part of fighting the system. My brothers and sisters we were the beneficiaries of all, beneficiaries if you will, of all that previous activity that went on, the people trying to preserve the traditional way of living, and yet at the same time wanting to survive in the current situation, and so eventually finding some way to adopt what was non-Klamath, non-native in some fashion, and so that we'd still be able to move on and develop as a culture. Language was another example of that. Our traditional land, we got languages being Piute, Modoc or Klamath, for the most part we were discouraged from speaking the language, and we were not only discouraged, it was illegal to speak your own language on the reservation, because the intent was to assimilate and to learn English languages as quickly as you possibly could. |
| [5,17] That kind of practice by the government, the federal government by itself created a learning situation that was both beneficial and negative, in some instances. We learned to speak the English language; we learned to adopt a lot of the non-Indian tradition and custom and belief systems, as a matter of survival. But it also encouraged us in a fashion to preserve what we could in our own way. We did as much of that as we possibly could, in one fashion or another, to preserve as much of our own ways as much as we could, but yet appease the federal government, who had this intent to change our way of life. Moving into the Methodist church was very easy for us because a lot of the early missionaries, we had some negative experiences with missionaries, Christian missionaries, but we also had a lot of positive experiences because they depended upon the individual make up of the people who came in and wanted to reinforce what the government was trying to do, or was more willing to let the people decide how they were going to use that religion, and to just provide the basis of what the Christian belief was. So there was no problem with any changes and any alterations to the traditional Methodist or Christian belief, and we were able to do that at the Williamson River Church. |
| [5,18] That became a favorite meeting place, we moved into the traditional Sunday celebrations, but we also used, it became, that little old church today is still there. A little white Methodist mission building with its parsonage to one side. So that became a place of celebration, because it was open to us and the Methodist church, and the Methodist clergy encouraged us to utilize it as much as we possibly could, and even still today we use that for funeral services, we use it for Christmas celebrations and that type of thing, get together. Part of the experience that I remember that's tied to the natural resources and the geography was part of our major sustenance, along with the hunting, but the hunting provided for us, the fishing provided for us, was the gathering of natural foods. We gathered, and we had an abundance of natural fruits, we had an abundance of other natural fruits like ground nuts, like root systems, that over the years, by the time we came along, the practice of gathering roots had pretty much disappeared, so we didn't see a lot of that, but one of the things that we were still practicing, that my family was still practicing, was the gathering of wocus, and we had profuse amounts of that resources along the lakeshores and in the Klamath marsh area. |
| [5,19] But in the upper Klamath Lake region and we all had our favorite gathering places, and my favorite our favorite gathering place for wocus, which looks like a lily pad, well in fact that's what they refer to as lily pads, on top of the lake, that exist in many parts of the country, in the west here. But, they had a seedpod on top of it, and you gathered those seedpods, and you processed those seedpods in the fashion in which you wound up with, was a meal that you could store, you could preserve in mason jars and then you utilize it as food supplements during the winter years and during, well, all year along, with the dried fish that you took out during the sucker runs that I spoke about, in another session. Epos, which was a ground nut, that's the Klamath name for the ground nut that we gathered at certain times of the year, and harvested them and either roasted them or preserved them whole, and then you brought them out when you wanted to, and they served as a food supplement. |
| [5,20] But the gathering process for the wocus was something that my brother and I, who's just a year younger than I am, still remember very well because we participated with our family. My aunts, my two aunts, my mother, and my grandmother who still had one of the last dugout canoes in the area, and she preserved it, in as I recall, there was a shed in the upper Klamath Lake, towards Klamath Agency, which was our government centre that I've talked to you about this before, but up along that upper Klamath Lake and Agency Lake we had this dugout canoe, there's a little shed there also, as I recall. They used to store that canoe I thought under the shed, but I can't recall where, I can just remember my aunts and grandmother used to, using, utilizing that dugout canoe to go out and harvest off the top of the lake, and, those pods, and then bringing them back into the lakeshore, where we had canvasses laid out, large tarps laid out on the ground there, and we had large tubs and buckets of water that we utilized in the processing process, and once you got those pods brought back in they'd fill the canoe and then they'd bring it back in and dump the canoe, and go out and gather more and bring it in, and we'd work with one of our aunts and our grandmother on shore to help her take the unnecessary covering off those plants, and then we'd wind up with just the raw seeds. |
| [5,21] The raw seeds initially had a cover on them, so you had to lay them out on the tarp and then you'd have to let them sit there for a couple days in the sun or the air and dry out, and then the process, as I remember it, it was so long ago, I was such a young person, that I can remember the processing, the process itself involved bringing them in, de-husking, getting the seeds out on the canvass so that they would dry, and then I can't remember the process too well, the process, somehow there was another pod that we had to get off of that, and the way we did that was by crushing them or something like that. It was not grinding; we found some way to either crush them with mallets or something, and then you wound up with those dry husks, and you take all of that, all those husks, and the meal that you had left, the tiny seeds, and you put them in a large buckets of water, tubs of water, and then all of the stuff that you weren't going to keep would float to the top of the water, and that was just a matter of skimming that extra stuff, that waste off the top of the tubs, and at the bottom of the tubs, and the buckets, you would have the seeds. The seeds were as big as corn, or, oh, I don't know, not sesame, -- what do you call the seeds that you eat? -- sunflower seeds about that size. I've never had a sunflower, but that's what it would look like. |
| [5,22] So you pour off the water and preserve what you had left in there, and dry that as well, back there on the tarps, and to let it dry, and what you wound up with was a dried seed, and then you went on to the grinding. My grandmother, my aunts, and my mother had grinding stones that had been preserved, and that they had to hide on a regular basis under the shed along with the canoe and everything else, and that process, and how that occurred, I don't remember a lot of that. I remember most. But what I remember most was not only bits and parts of that gathering and processing, but all the spiritual kinds of give and take that went on, and the stories that were told by my grandmothers and my aunts, about how long this process has been going on, and the way that it used to be, and how many dugouts there used to be in that part of the lake, and how many people used to gather wocus, and by the time we came along it was limited to very few people, who really knew how to, who really knew the process, and were willing to practice, because it was a time consuming process. |
| [5,23] You stayed there on the lakeside; you didn't stay there, but I mean you were there for a couple three weeks, gathering and processing. What you ultimately wound up with after you ground all of the wocus seeds, and you put them back and you stored them, preserved them in mason jars or jugs basic jars, is more what I remember, and then you left a so it looked like cream of wheat in the bottom of the mason jar, and you always left so much water at the top -- it is a part of the preservation process -- and all that went into your woodsheds or your, a lot of us still had the old cellars. We had a couple of those cellars on our ranches and so all the wocus went into that to keep it cool, for as long as you could. As a food supplement along with your deer meat, bear meat, if you will, elk meat, if you will, potatoes were a common supplement, and rice and corn. We grew a lot of our own vegetables back then and the wild fruit, and the ground nuts, and that type of thing, that's what we lived on. In addition, of course, what we bought at the store. When my brother and were still, we remember, we spent a lot of time eating, supplementing our diet with the traditional foods, and we spent a lot of time gathering it. |
| [5,24] All of that kind of activity, the fish gathering, the wocus gathering, the gathering of the tules, the baskets, all of those were activities that fostered and promoted very close relationships amongst us all. We depended upon each other for that. There was always teaching going on, and how much you took advantage of that was dependent upon you. But there was, it was disappearing by the time my brother and I started growing up. A lot of people didn't want to take the time to do that anymore. But we were very fortunate, the prayer services that went on, with all of those kinds of activities, particularly in our family, influenced both my brother and I, and had an influence also initially on my other brother and sisters, even though they came later on in life. Because you were constantly reminded of the relationship that had existed historically between our Creator, and who had many names, and many nations across the country refer to in many different ways. But between our Creator and ourselves, and the relationship that establishes our responsibilities, a stewardship, if you will, and that we had to accept as a responsibility, one of our responsibilities, not only to ourselves, but for the preservation of our culture. |
| [5,25] Our prayers always gave thanks to our Creator for all of this that they provided for us, and we talked constantly, not only of the food that they provided for us, but the people, thanks for the people, thanks for the protection, just very typical kinds of prayers, but also thanks for the beauty of this earth, thanks for sun, thanks for the moon and all of this type of thing was a traditional part of everything that we did. It was something that was common practice it wasn't something that you did on Sunday or Wednesday or at Easter or anything else it was year round process, system of beliefs, and it influenced us, not only in the gathering activities, but where it was most apparent was, it was a part of our daily life. We started everyday that way and we ended everyday that way. Common practice for us was to sit down at night either around a campfire or with no light at all if the weather was good, and just have our grandparents and our mothers and fathers either tell stories or talk about past experiences, and all of those had lessons. They were, all those experiences had lessons, either lessons to teach us, what could happen to us, or lessons to teach us to share with us what we needed, if in fact we were going to be a part of that, of our future experiences. If we were going to maybe have a positive experience or whether or not we were going to allow ourselves to slip into a lifestyle that would create nothing but negative experiences for us. |
| [5,26] So they were all, all of that was tied into the way that we lived and the way we lived, our lives on the reservation as young people, and I think that there's no question in my mind that it influenced my overall development, and I became more and more, although I loved the reservation at one time, and was far removed from my involvement with those kind of experiences, it eventually reached a point in time when I needed to get back to it. Being offered the opportunity in later life to get back to other communities, when I went to work for the state department, working in a position where I was expected to work with tribal units in an effort to extend state services to the tribal people in the field of education, reminded me all of that and it was very good for me, and it was really very positive experience for me again to re-associate with those traditional experiences. Now the longer I spend in my life I look forward, and I spend as much time as I possibly can with talking with people, or reliving those experiences. What with all the literature that has come out over the years, since our existence: we started growing up, and Native American authors, and people who were very familiar with Native American experiences, it's been much easier to relive those experiences and rediscover those experiences. |
| [5,27] There for a long while it was very difficult to find that kind of information, that kind of material, so we had to rely upon what we could remember for younger people who didn't grow up with that, who were unable to take advantage of that. Those are the youngsters that have created a lot of concern for me, because in my business I run into a lot of Native American youngsters who have no idea, have not had the pleasure of growing up in that traditional kind of existence, and it's sad when you run into them, because they're all searching. Even at the college, that I run, at the college level, students all the time who are searching and are trying to find some way to reconnect with their past. Unless they've had people in their life, or unless they have people who understand their cultural lifestyle, it's very difficult for them to recapture that in books, and what they wind up with is something that appeases them, and helps them out, and assists them with their identification, but at the same time I run into some of the youngsters who are still searching for who they are in terms of their culture, their specific culture, their specific group of people, and that type of thing. I run into many types of students who are far removed from their culture, because they have lived in the central part of the country, or the eastern part of the country, and don't have access to people who have lived those real experiences. I'm slipping away from where we want to be here but . . . |
| [5,28] Linc Kesler It's very interesting thing that you're talking about and what do you tell them? |
| [5,29] Morrie Jimenez Well, all I can do is, I can tell them how the reservation system, and this is my traditional way of doing it, and trying to help them. I can tell them, I can give them a little bit of insight as to what I have learned about people in other segments of the country, and if they're from the Oklahoma territory, I can talk to them about how the Oklahoma territory at one time became Indian territory, in the attempts of the federal government, they really felt that at one time it was possible to put all the Indians in the United States into that one area. The relocation of so many tribal units in the Oklahoma territory, the Trail of Tears story, if you will, the same kind of story with the Navajo people, and then I talk to them about how reservation systems were established, and who had responsibility for that, and that there are archives in some states, there are archives in Washington, D.C. that are preserved, a lot of the personal history of the individual tribes across the country. |
| [5,30] So that their only opportunity is, learn as much as you can about the local history, but at the same time historically with what we have, and it's even easier today than it has been in the past, what with computer technology and the fact that we can we have a growing number of websites, it's becoming a lot easier for us to tap into a website and locate resources for the Kiowa people, or locate resources for the Oneida people, or locate resources for the Navajo people, the Cree, because more and more tribal units now, because of what's happened to us in terms of our freedom now to self-determine and establish governments, and re-establish governments, and that type of thing. We have more and more Native peoples who are taking advantage of that opportunity, and have gotten into the business of rediscovering their cultures, and so that's what I tell them. I try to give them a sense of what happened to Indian people in general, and why it happened that way, and it helps them a lot. But then you've got to find some way, and I have access in my files now to sites across the country where I can say, "well, you know, take a look here, and what you need to do is find some way to contact what's ever left of your community," and in many cases that's almost impossible to do. So you have to give them some ideas about where they can go into libraries to discover some of that information. |
| [5,31] In many cases, if they have a sense of where they came from, and if they have a sense of what nation they were tied to at one time, just going back that far, we discovered just that much, a general overview helps them a lot. Anything that you can do to help them rediscover their roots is very, very important. Even a general overview of that about federal-Indian relations is very helpful to them. If they can understand the situation, then they can begin to rediscover other paths and other sources of information that will help them. In the state of Oregon, it's easy for me to do with people, because our people have been broken up over the years, and nine federally recognized tribes, and within each one of those tribal systems, they were all set up more or less of confederations of tribes, just like our tribe was, and that's true across the country, that I've discovered. Our tribes since the 1970s, with federal legislation that allows us to self-determine where we want to go, and the modifications that have occurred, and the revisions that have occurred since then, whereas tribes have been given more and more control over their own affairs, it's become easier for us. Every one of our tribes in the state of Oregon has websites and you can tap into those and reconnect a lot of those. |
| [5,32] It's more difficult in other states. I know a little bit about the tribes in Washington and in Idaho because they're located closer to where we are right now, and I can resource, I have resources, where I can point those kids. But in many cases it's just a matter of saying "okay do you have any idea where you're from?" and then filling them in with a brief overview of what's happened to tribes over the years, and give them some sense of where the tribes were relocated, and where they possibly might be located today, helps them a great, great deal. It's a difficult, it's really, really difficult situation, because in many cases you find yourself, as much of a loss as they are about what to do. |
| [5,33] Linc Kesler A few minutes earlier today you were talking about, just as part of all of those kind of traditional activities like gathering the wocus and so forth, you were very commonly told stories by your aunts and your Mom about that activity, and about a lot of other messages that would be combined into that, and earlier, in one of our other sessions, you talked about the Shaker Church and how strongly you valued it, seemed to me what you were saying was that you, how you value very strongly the kind of egalitarian nature of that church. That is was not so hierarchical as some of the other religious organizations that you had experience with, and that was one of the reasons that you were sort of drawn back to it. I'm wondering if you could talk any more about the connection between that kind of daily level of spiritual instruction and/or ethical instructions and so forth, that you've given us as part of normal activities, and sort of the gatherings that would take place in something like the Shaker Church, and what the connection how you see the connection between those two kinds of instruction. |
| [5,34] Morrie Jimenez You know it's been a very interesting awareness that I've developed over the years, a combination of information that I picked up as a result of my higher education, experiences, going to college, taking classes on my own, becoming involved with world cultures, and American literature, and world literature, and classes, and all that did was just move me closer to a tremendous need to find out about our people. In my reading about other people and how they live, reading about the Chinese cultures, the Japanese cultures, the traditional way of thinking, and so forth, fostered a real interest in my own personal education regarding our particular culture combined with what I remember about growing up on the reservation and having, and also having the opportunity to move back to work with tribal people again. In my own mind, I figured it out for myself, my personal development, a greater understanding I think of the importance of those activities and the relationships that we developed way back when we were young people on that reservation, particularly as it related to the constant lessons that were shared by our grandparents and other members of our extended family, and my mother and my father. |
| [5,35] My father who was Mexican did grow up in this country and had that same kind of innate, kind of inherent, kind of attitude about life, and then when I found out he being Mexican meant also that he was not only Spanish, had a Spanish background, he also had Native American background from the central part of Mexico, and so he was very familiar with a lot of the things that we practiced and talked about. He had similar stories about his traditional ways, so that, but all of that had, in my own mind that I discovered over the years, was an inter-relationship that existed in what we believed in as people, and the various kinds of exposures to other people's experiences, and the natural need for us to always see the relationship that had existed for thousands and thousands of years between our Creator and what he has afforded us in terms of opportunities and in terms of resources, was a constant in our life. It was something that we didn't practice at certain times of the year; it was something that was every day part of our lives. |
| [5,36] There were lessons to be learned in everything that we did. Our daily relationships internally as a family, what we needed to pay attention to in terms of being thankful for what our Creator has shared with us, but also how we relate to each other, and not as individuals. The responsibility to see ourselves not as individuals but as communities, and that communities, we pay attention to the community as a priority, and we needed to do that to survive as a people, and our negotiations with the federal government, and the process of relocation, and establishing our reservations we really needed to be able to assert ourselves as a community to make sure that everybody understood and develop an understanding that we too had very strong beliefs in where we felt we wanted to be or needed to be. Preservation of community and language went on for a long, long while before the federal government finally succeeded in pretty much preventing us from preserving our language. |
| [5,37] There are so few people today that speak our language anymore. But it wasn't because we didn't try to preserve it. The stories about, like my mother shared with us, about how she and her sisters and our grandparents still spoke the language, and how important, and they would continue. They would never forget that, but at the same time they are very few of us of that generation who wanted to hand that down, as I mentioned before, primarily because they were concerned about the kinds of experiences that they would expose us to by trying to preserve that language. They didn't want us to be punished for speaking our language. But the traditional ways of practicing, preserving food, of gathering as communities and celebrating as communities, all of that I think went a long ways to ensuring that my brothers and sisters, in our family, wound up with that same attitude in the long run, in spite of the education we might have received, in spite of not having, not being able to play a part in the traditional lifestyle to a degree that my mother and her generation, my uncles and their generation, were able to practice. They were practicing a remnant society. They were living in a remnant society and they were trying to preserve it as much as they possibly could and they were fortunate because they were on that border. |
| [5,38] We still had, a lot of their generation still spoke the language. A lot of the generation still knew how to make clothes and to make tools and utensils out deer hides and bones, elk hides and bear pelts, the natural vegetation. They still knew how to utilize the natural vegetation to provide resource in many, many different ways. They could foresee, I really think that they could foresee the change was ultimately going to force the following generations to change the way they would be. And so they encouraged us to learn the English language. They encouraged us to get an education. My aunts, my grandmothers, and my mother's exhortation to me, how important it was that I get an education, and that I find some way to share that education with the rest of my family, and to share those experiences as an educated person with other tribal people in our community, and hopefully other communities at the same time. A part of their, I think a part of their understanding that the world has changed, the world had changed, and that the world is going to continue to change, as long as we remain a part of a system whose intention was to eventually make us like everybody else, and total assimilation. |
| [5,39] So, I think it would be very easy for me to say well I think they were wrong and I think that we should have taken a different track in order to preserve the culture. But I wasn't in their shoes and I have to believe also that what they were doing, they were doing for what they thought would be the betterment of our situation as people growing up in our own generation. All of the cultural experiences, the traditional experiences, that church experience at the Shaker Church was a perfect example. We had responsibilities to each other we came into that church building practicing the traditional, our belief system that it was possible for us as Shaker people, as Indian people, to help each other in feeling better physically and better about each other and that type of thing, was a part of the whole traditional cultural way of living. Our cultural belief system and we were asked to live that as a daily experience and not an on and off experience. This is the way you should treat other people, this is what you should believe in. |
| [5,40] Community, the need to assist the community, to be a part of the community, to make sure that we move forward as a community, because as a community there was a lot of security that we developed. There was a lot of collaborative learning that could go on and had gone on for years and years. All of that together, the cultural experiences, the social experiences, the political experiences with the tribal government, all of those experiences together is what I think made us, allowed us to survive as a culture. We still see ourselves as the Klamath people, Modoc people, the Piute people. We're still trying to preserve as much as we possibly can. Now, we're finally allowed a position whereby we can even go back and attempt to recapture as much of it. Now we have Indian people who are willing to help us extend their resource capabilities to assist us in our efforts to recapture all of that. |
| [5,41] Linc Kesler I'm afraid we're right up on the end of the tape so we can stop there for at least a minute. |
|
Session 6 |
| [6,1] Linc Kesler It's Tuesday, October 8, 2002, and I am here once again with Morrie Jimenez to talk some more about his experiences. And today Morrie, I was wondering if you might talk a little bit about, well, begin to talk about the transition that you went through as you went off the reservation into the school system, and then beyond that, later, when you began experiencing some challenges in your work life and how you dealt with that, or what's involved in that. |
| [6,2] Morrie Jimenez Sure. In making a transition, which I've already discussed, from the reservation experience to the non-reservation experience and then having experience of going through the off reservation school in Klamath County, there were a number of adjustments that I had to make in my personal belief systems and in my ability to negotiate social patterns outside of what I grew up in. It started with very simply by being able to negotiate middle school in the sixth grade and the seventh grade experiences in Klamath Falls. As I mentioned earlier, that was a difficult transition period and I was only able to do that for a half a year in the seventh and eighth grade because I felt a need to be back on the reservation with those people that I grew up with and with the situations the experiences that I was so used to. But I did make it to the seventh and eighth grade primarily because of the strength of my mother and my aunts and my family who constantly encouraged me to fulfill what they felt were key educational goals that were not only individual in nature, but also as my parents thought, communal in nature, that hopefully I'd be able to share that in some small way with the other reservation youngsters that I grew up with. So I made it eventually through the sixth, seventh and eighth grade and then tried to make that difficult transition and in the ninth grade moving into the big high school and the only high school in the city there I was became a part of an athletic fraternity which I also mentioned. |
| [6,3] The athletic fraternity afforded me a number of different experiences that allowed me to begin my overall development as an educated person and also an overall development as an Indian person who unwillingly became a model for other Indian children, and also a model for non-Indian people in the terms that it was their hopes, it was my family's hopes that I could get through and get a high school diploma at that Klamath school in Klamath Falls. With the athletic participation and becoming a part of a protected fraternity it allowed me to accomplish that, and I realized that over the long run, over the years, that the fact that I was afforded the same level of expectations in terms of academic accomplishment, even though the social involvements were still denied directly and indirectly because of my cultural background. I understand that more now, and it was difficult at times to understand that back when I was in high school as a ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grader, but in retrospect I understand why the social, my personal social aspirations were unfulfilled because of the climate that was still non-conducive to my, allowing my involvement in many of the social activities. |
| [6,4] But I was very happy with the fact that I was able to work and become that, primarily because of my involvement with the athletic experiences. I became fairly successful as a high school athlete and particularly in the area of football. I also participated in other athletic endeavors, swimming team, track team, and then became I was minimally allowed to share in certain social experiences that made me feel that I belonged that I was a part of that. So I left high school with a pretty good feeling you know a lot of it had to do with my personal relationships with non-Indian people in Klamath Falls, the friends that still, the long term friendships which still exist today, although I see very few of those my really close friends. The participation with the elitist group was something that I didn't even think about primarily because I was so accepted. I had a level of acceptance in other areas of the social activities. The high school instructors contributed a lot I think to my ability to get through the process because our coaches required that we meet the academic requirements. Simply because of the fact that athletes had to be able to play and participate if in fact they were going to fulfill their mission in regards to the competitive nature of athletics in the area, southern Oregon area. |
| [6,5] We were very competitive with Medford, we were very competitive with Ashland and Grant's Pass high schools. We competed regularly with out of state high schools that were large school systems, and Klamath, the high school that I went to school at that particular time in that area was, had goals to compete at that level. So the competition was really very, very good, and because of that the expectations laid on athletes was greater than most of the regular students. We were expected to respond to the disciplinary expectations that were made upon us in terms of no smoking and no drinking, no late hours, but more than that to pass your classes so that they never had to worry about losing you for a game or for a season. And that was very helpful to me although I didn't realize that until much later how helpful that was to me, because it allowed me to do something that I really enjoyed, participating in football. |
| [6,6] It allowed me also to receive the benefit of the same level of academic expectation from my instructors, and it allowed for an opportunity for my instructors and for my fellow classmates to see an Indian person, as there were so few Indian students, if any, going to school in that district at that particular point in time, so I realized now that it may have contributed to somewhat their level of expectation in terms of being involved with Indian people and also may have contributed to their level of expectation and understanding about Indian people in general, in the fact that I was able to compete academically and compete socially, and to compete athletically and that type of thing. I think may have altered, may have changed, may have influenced I guess more than anything else their perception of Indian people. That was very critical to that was a part of my mission as described to me by my parents and my members of my extended family how critical it was to show people that given the opportunity we can perform at the same level as anybody else, and that was very good for me, because it allowed me to get through four years of high school, graduate with a diploma and then even seriously consider extending my education beyond high school education. |
| [6,7] In fact, I was encouraged again at the completion of my, and I was proficient enough in athletics at that point in time to be seriously considered as a potential athlete at the college level, and so I was I had an opportunity to interview at the University of Oregon, and then I was also visited by one of their former graduates and football players when he took over the head football coach jobs at Southern Oregon, and so I was, I had developed enough proficiency and athletic ability, and my academic potential was also evident at that particular point in time, that I had the grades to do that. So I went on to Southern Oregon College, I again was able to develop long term proficiency level in my athletic ability, particularly in football, but also participated in other sports at the college level, and even though the academic expectations were not at the same as the high school level for me, you still had the expectation that if you wanted to play, you made sure that you were academically eligible to do that. |
| [6,8] So I had developed a good base at the high school level and carried over to the college level, and so I never had any problems, well I had a few problems that I wouldn't get straight A's, but I remained academically eligible so that I could participate in the athletic portion of it. While in college I again ran into a number of instructors who were not as interested in athletic ability, but were interested in my ability to accomplish educationally and get a degree, and I wound up in a situation where I was forced to make a choice, like we all were, in choosing a major, and that was not a decision that took a lot, that I spent a lot of time with, trying to make that decision, but I chose education at that particular point in time, and I ran into a one teacher, in fact, the coordinator of the teacher education program was a person who, like several of my high school instructors, took a tremendous interest in me and took every opportunity to encourage me, and took every opportunity of offer assistance in meeting my academic requirements and in college. There were others at the college campus, at the college experience level, that did exactly the same thing, because I was what's the term, an anomaly. I can only think of two other Native American students that were in college when I was in college. |
| [6,9] We were a small college, 350 students a term, and only one or two other Native students, Indian students who were on campus at that particular point in time. In high school, I can't remember another Native American or Indian student that was you know had tenancy there and enrolled. But I look back on those experiences now and know that it may have been a different story for me and a different conclusion to my story had it not been for individual instructors at the high school level and in college level, who took the time to encourage me, to convince me that I had a potential to become someone. So I look back on those experiences, I look back on those personal contacts, those individual educators who took the time to help me learn those lessons, and helped me develop that base of confidence in myself and confidence in my abilities. The college experience, I was very fortunate in high school experience, that I ran into a social studies instructor, I can see him still today, and who really developed for me, a tremendous interest in social studies academics and social studies classes, particularly in history, particularly in literatures, and particularly in world cultures, that it helped me begin exploring the experiences of world cultures in general, both at the high school level and then carrying over into the college level. |
| [6,10] I developed tremendous interest in studying the Asian cultures, the Chinese cultures, the Japanese culture, and then other cultures outside of the Asian cultures and I was very interested in their histories. I was very interested in their belief systems and Confucius, Confucianism, and Daoism, and that type of thing. All that coupled with my, and there was so much information that was available to me there, it allowed me to draw parallels between their belief systems and their cultural backgrounds, and the Native American background that I grew up in. There were similarities, and so that was the beginning point for me in establishing a tremendous interest in taking in how other people lived over the years, and what were the factors that allowed them to survive for as long as they have. |
| [6,11] It initiated with me an interest then to find out more about not only our people and our culture but within the state and our community in Klamath, but also to the cultures of other Native Indigenous groups across the country, and so that's, I started looking at and started reading more about other cultures, the Kiowa culture, the Great Lakes cultures, the North Atlantic coastal plains, the southwest cultures and Alaskan culture. What it did it generated a tremendous interest in me to find out more and more about why they, and I think the thing that most interested me were the survival stories. How did they manage to get through this period of colonialism? How did they manage to get through all of the periods of dislocation, of relocation, of reservation life, how were they able to manage their relationships with the various political entities that and their never-ending intent to manage tribal populations. |
| [6,12] I started spending more time learning about what had happened to many communities in this country, and I started learning about what reservation, the influences of reservation based on governments, and how they influenced the people. So from that point during high school it was initiated and carried forward through my college education, I developed more and more interest over finding more about our people, the Indigenous people of this country, and the fact that I was able to take a look at those cultures outside of the United States helped me also to develop focal points for me to address in developing my interest in many Indigenous groups here in this country. |
| [6,13] So I came out with a college degree, and because of my athletic ability I was able also to develop a proficiency level that allowed me to step into coaching ranks although it took me a couple of years to do that. I started off in the elementary school level in the southern Oregon region in Medford, and then moved northward after two years because I wanted to get into the high school coaching, and then took a job in a small high school just north of Grant's Pass, which gave me, which provided for me another experience, another learning experience, in terms of a populated group here in the United States. |
| [6,14] The majority of those students in that small community had come out of, their parents and their families had come out of the southeast United States culture, the southeast Louisiana country area, and I became very interested and very involved and engrossed in sharing with them, in seeking out opportunities, shared experiences, and I learned more about their culture, and it was, they were such a pleasant group of students to work with, and their families were such a pleasant group of people, and many of their characteristics were very similar with what I grew up with on the reservation, in terms of how you relate to people and in terms of responsibility, internal responsibility, that exists within the nuclear, the dependency that they had upon each other, the concern that they had upon each other, that was a really fine, positive experience, so I really appreciated those two years working with that particular community and I still have, my wife and I still go back occasionally, we went back to a reunion that was 19 . . . well it was in the early '60s when we were there. |
| [6,15] In fact, it was even before that, it was in the late '50's when we were there, because I started my teaching in '55 and then I moved to the Glendale area, so it must have been '57-'58 when I was there. We went back to a reunion here about five or six, time flies so fast, five to ten years ago, and, of course, they're all grown up, they're adult people and they have children, and they even have grandchildren at this particular point in time. But it reminded me of that experience, that I went back and met with them, and had lunch with them, and visited. It took me back a long ways and reminded me of why I enjoyed that community so much. A lot of it had to do with parallels that existed between the way they grew up and what they believed in and the way I grew up and what we believed in on the reservation. They were not a Native culture, they were students in Anglo culture, but who had come out of a unique cultural experiences in the southeastern part of the country. |
| [6,16] I went to another community for another coaching job primarily to enhance my coaching position, and spent another two years in the middle part of the state, and that was experience I can't remember because I don't want to remember, okay, because it was such a negative experience. My first two experiences at the elementary school in Medford, and my next two years of experience at that small school just north of Medford, a rural school, a rural community, were so different from that one that third experience in central Oregon, western central Oregon, because the community was such a biased community. The community harbored so many biases and prejudices. There were still acts of discrimination took place, very common place as it relates to people who were coming through, or who were wanting to take advantage of the services, the restaurant services, the motel services, that were available. There were not many. There were so many experiences that we viewed, and so many experiences that we heard of, that really were bad experiences. We don't like to remember that we were our treatment as individuals, my wife and I and eventually our families were so negative that we got out after two years and came to Salem in 1965. |
| [6,17] Linc Kesler Was it hard to be accepted in a work environment? |
| [6,18] Morrie Jimenez Oh yeah, the work environment wasn't bad. In my first two teaching experiences I never I was never exposed to the kind of experiences that we were exposed to with that third experience. We never had to worry about discriminatory behavior, biased behavior. It existed because it existed in that part of southern Oregon for a long, long while. But we became accepted in the Medford experience, and the Glendale experience we became accepted members of the community we were treated with respect. Those were really enjoyable experiences and it was just the opposite in the other community. So, we decided not to stay there in fact I was so unhappy with the experience there that I decided to get out of the teaching business. I explored the opportunity of going into sales work of some type, or another selling insurance, I think at one time. I was looking for something else. That experience was so negative it I had developed a misperception that that's the way it was going to be from that time forward. |
| [6,19] So, fortunately for me my wife wouldn't allow me do that. She felt very strongly about my potential as a teacher. So she applied for jobs for me around the state, and I wound up on several interviews at different parts of the state, and I wound up in Medford, and it was good move. It was a really good move for us because I moved back into a situation that was a very positive experience at the middle school level in Salem, and it really enforced for me that there are far greater number of positive thinking people and positive behaving people than there are negative, which I needed at that particular point in time. So I spent the next fifteen years in the Salem school district eventually moving from a teaching experience, and including a coaching experience that were really where my kids grew up in the Salem community. |
| [6,20] Linc Kesler How did you deal with that the effects of that time you spent. You were in that one job for what . . . |
| [6,21] Morrie Jimenez Two years. |
| [6,22] Linc Kesler In the difficult one? |
| [6,23] Morrie Jimenez Yeah. |
| [6,24] Linc Kesler Wow. You lasted for two years. |
| [6,25] Morrie Jimenez For two years. |
| [6,26] Linc Kesler That's pretty remarkable. |
| [6,27] Morrie Jimenez Yeah, it got so bad because then they started making, ah, wound up making aspersions about my wife and my family. That was the final thing for me. We just decided that we didn't want to deal with that anymore. But, the thing that saved me, of course, was the fact that my wife refused to let me. It had a lot to do with my wife refused to let me do away with what she thought my career, my current experiences, the teaching experience, and the fact that I was able to step back in again immediately to a really positive situation helped me a great deal. |
| [6,28] Linc Kesler Sorry, how did you end up thinking about that situation once you were able to leave? How did it affect your thinking? |
| [6,29] Morrie Jimenez Oh, well initially I didn't respond very positively. I was ready to give up, and ready to move off into a different career area. But the fact that I was able to step back into a situation, the junior high situation for four years in my first job in the Salem school district in the middle school, where again I was exposed to a great number of positive influences, including the staff. The perception, in fact, when I was hired, I initially turned the job down primarily because I was still responding to my feelings that resulted from the previous job. The administrator, the head administrator of this big junior high school in Salem, he had detected my negative attitude, and he detected the fact that I was probably ready to give up, and was really not interested in the job, and that I had only come there because my wife had applied, and I had responded to that, which was more or less true in that particular case. |
| [6,30] But he also sensed, in looking through my evaluation, because one of the things that did come up, I had positive evaluations from my first two experiences, I had a negative evaluation only in one part of my paperwork from my third experience, but there was also a portion of that evaluation that was very positive, because I was able to put together a P.E. program for them that they complimented me upon, the board took the time to compliment me on what I had done on the P.E. program, and how happy they were. In the third situation, looking back on it, I know the problem. The problem, in my mind, was that I was hired as the head basketball coach and we had a 4 and 16 season. We won 4 games and lost 16, and that was, in that community, that was, you're not supposed to have those kinds of seasons. I think that had a lot to do with it. It was just they were unhappy with what I was able to achieve as a basketball coach. But, in any event, going back and stepping into the next experience, which was just a complete reversal of the experiences that we had. |
| [6,31] Also, the social attitudes in that community, even without the school experience, we were, we didn't want to participate in, we didn't even want to share in that because it was an attitude problem more than anything else. The fact that I stepped in for four years, the next four years were a very positive situation and I was handed responsibility to direct the department. I was handed responsibilities to assist with mentoring practice teachers. I had a responsibility to work with administration and that type of thing reinforced for me again my personal assessment of my capacities and my abilities, and that was supported by the people that I work with did a lot for that, really positive and strong people with good backgrounds and good strength. Then my desire to get back into high school coaching again drove me to apply for a job in one of the new high schools that were being, that was being built down in Salem, so I applied for a job there and got the job to coach and teach at the new high school. |
| [6,32] It was a good experience although, it was a positive experience for the most part. It was a very structured experience. There was not so much interaction between the staff as there was in the previous experiences. I really enjoyed the interaction that went on between the staff and the reliance that they had upon each other and the social relationships that existed. Strong staff, good administration and a really nice student body. The high school experience, the new experience, in that, following that middle school experience, was much more structured than that, and I had a little problem adjusting to that all that structure, but I managed that, I learned how to manage that. I started learning lessons, at that particular point in time, about how critical it was to adapt and adjust, and then I started learning lessons about how you can do that successfully and still sustain your belief systems. By then, after about, well this was now two, four, six, I had now had a dozen years of experience behind me, and by the time I reached that set stage of development, I had learned the importance of adapting and adjusting, coupled with my growing awareness of why Indian tribes have succeeded in surviving over the years, because I had in my own mind defined the reasons that occurred as involving the ability of tribes to adapt and adjust and protect and preserve what they thought was most critical to them. |
| [6,33] So I began, in my mind, I began tying those two philosophies together, and so I was able to adjust to that more structured situation and enjoy that experience also very well. But then I, at the same time, I was learning these lessons that also involved learning more about tribal communities across the country and what happened to them, I decided to come back to the reservation, or former reservation. By then it was no longer a reservation. The termination had occurred in 1955. Now I'm in the mid-60's in Salem, and so I decided that it was time, we had our children, we had six children, and it was time for me to, I was very concerned that my children develop an awareness of their cultural base, and so because they had grown up primarily in non-reservation and non-Indian communities, and I wasn't so concerned by the level of acceptance they had developed for themselves, I wasn't concerned with their educational level of development, I most concerned with their cultural development. |
| [6,34] My wife and I talked about that, Louis and I talked about that, and I told her that I was concerned that they develop a stronger understanding for where we came from, where the Native American part of their background came from, so we applied for and I took a job back in Chiloquin, which used to be the hub of the reservation, still is even though it's not the same community, but I took a job back there primarily but the, so I went back and taught and coached and served a pseudo administrator, a head administrator, and had administrative responsibilities, and the problem was that I wasn't hired by the building administrator, I was hired by the district superintendent, who was a person that whose life experiences had gone back, all the way back, to my life experiences growing up as a youngster on the reservation, because his family lived on the reservation at one time and he eventually became the superintendent of the county school district, and interviewed for the job. I didn't interview with the head administrator of the high school until I had interviewed with him, and he was so excited about me wanting to come back to teach that he just outright hired me. |
| [6,35] I realize now that that created a problem that lasted for two years during my initial exposure back onto the reservation although we did accomplish exposing our children to their family and bringing them closer to their cultural base, and they were able to experience some of the cultural activity that still existed at that particular point in time. But this was 10 or 15 years past the point of termination, so there was not the level of cultural experience that I would hope that they would be able to achieve. But even that experience, so after two years we left that experience, because again it had to do with my inability to negotiate what I thought needed to be negotiated for Indian students in that school district, and in that building with an administrator who had no desire to talk about cultural needs, social needs, and that type of thing, and was very content with what he had put into place in that building, and so I determined at the end of that two years that there was no hope there. |
| [6,36] Linc Kesler So he was running just the same curriculum he would have done any where? |
| [6,37] Morrie Jimenez Yeah and there was little sensitivity to what they were doing in that school to tribal needs. |
| [6,38] Linc Kesler That must have been disheartening. |
| [6,39] Morrie Jimenez It was disheartening. It was disheartening as being so excited about taking my children back, and then taking them out on the reservation for the first time with this tremendous excitement about showing them places that I had grown up, the traditional places with great meaning to me and my family, giving them a tour of the former reservation area and that was that really turned out to be a very sad experience for me. Because it was new to my children, they were glad for me to take them out into the wild, what was left of the original pristine wilderness that I grew up in. The agency grounds that had so much meaning to me, that I had described to you previously, had become a private hunting lodge and enclave. The perimeter of the Cascade region that I described before that had so much meaning to me, didn't have as much meaning to my children because all those people that were, that created that, are, were disappearing, I mean, were gone. |
| [6,40] People of our family members, the elders of our particular community, the tribe, was dispersed pretty much at that particular time. The land holdings that were gone. I could show them the farm that I grew up on and the acreage that I grew up on, but it was not the same. It re-allotted again. We dealt with while I was on the reservation when it was a reservation, we, most reservations across the county, we dealt with land allotment process even with the Indian land allotment processes where Indian tribal members were allotted lands. But even so, many of those disappeared very, very quickly because they lost our land in one fashion or another, for not paying taxes and that type of thing. But what I was taking them back to was a long ways from the experience that I experienced growing up. |
| [6,41] Linc Kesler So how did you deal with that? |
| [6,42] Morrie Jimenez Well I, what I wound up doing, was that I took the opportunity to share as much of what was left of the cultural experiences that I was used to, was minimal and I took them to spend time with family, where they could hear stories about the way that it used to be on the reservation. We attended what celebrations that were still in existence at that particular point in time. We, and that's basically all we could do, was to share what was left of the former cultural experiences, but even that was very, turned out to be very good, because it gave them a perception that they didn't have, at that particular point in time. The family ties were the most critical part of that, to re-establish ties with family, to let the family find out who they are, and let them find out who their family involved and the fact that they were able to hear some of the stories about the way it used to be, really helped them a lot. |
| [6,43] A couple of my children didn't want to go back. But they managed to get through those two years that we were back there, and then we moved back into the Salem area and when I moved back to the Salem area, oh, the thing, one of the really depressing experiences was my eagerness to expose them to the geographical layout of the reservation. I put them into a station wagon as soon as we got down there, almost, Sun Mountain area, we drove over to the Yamsay Mountain area. We didn't have the access that we did because there had been so much of that land that had been re-allotted. There was so much of that land that had become federal government and so there were many parts there that we couldn't get to because of fences or because of signs that prevented us from getting back in those areas again. In the areas that we were able to get back into particularly in the pristine areas where we had virgin timber stands, and we had marsh area and that type of thing, we had stream systems and river systems; so much of that area had been clear cut. Many of the actual stands of timber that made up our cultural heritage were gone. |
| [6,44] The fact that we couldn't access them much of it was a depressing kind of experience, particularly in the view that my intent was to show them what it used to be like, and there was no way I was going to be able to do that at that particular point in time. So all I could do was continue to share with them my story. So we again, that turned out to be not a very pleasant experience in terms of what I was able to accomplish with the local school systems, because I went back there with grand ideas about what we could do to help the situation, because they were still, the education system in that community was still not a very positive experience for Indian kids, primarily because there was such a lack of sensitivity to their needs as Indian students, let alone students. There was no consideration for making the educational experiences relevant to their experiences, and so there was little room for them to share who they were with the educational system. There was still a lot of lack of respect for Indian children, and the level of perception of Indian kids was still not where it should be, and the level of expectations for Indian students was still so terribly low that we, even at that particular point in time, they were never expected to achieve very far. As you recall, that was one of the reasons my mother didn't want me to go to school, in the public school system, and it was still there. |
| [6,45] Linc Kesler So you found that in the school system things hadn't changed for the better. |
| [6,46] Morrie Jimenez No. |
| [6,47] Linc Kesler At least very much and then in terms of the surrounding area and of course the tribe as a land based organization no longer existed because of the termination. |
| [6,48] Morrie Jimenez The cultural environment had changed so significantly it was like it was not the, for me it was not the same thing having grown up in the previous experience. |
| [6,49] Linc Kesler And the landscape as you were describing it was had really undergone a substantial change. |
| [6,50] Morrie Jimenez Yeah. In fact while we were there we observed a logging practice that was so evident to me as creating a lot of the problems, not only for the Indian people in that region, but also for the basic economy. We used to sit on the road between Fort Klamath and Chiloquin area in the Klamath County region and watch truckload after truckload after truckload of logs take the back road on the upper part of the former reservation and then back on the highway that took them back into Medford, and it also took them into Coos Bay, and then we learned, I learned that the majority of all the timber that was being cut in the Klamath basin was going to Coos Bay for processing and eventually sail overseas, and that was also happening at Coos Bay. They were shipping a lot of that timber resource overseas. Eventually the Klamath basin still today suffers from a lack of a lumber economy, and it just didn't make sense to me, at that particular time, why they were allowing that to happen. |
| [6,51] Linc Kesler So it was just pure extraction, no jobs even in the processing. |
| [6,52] Morrie Jimenez Yeah, that's right and where there used to be, that area of the county used to have so many lumber mills that provided so much employment opportunity for everybody. They disappeared slowly but surely, after a point when their lumber economy was almost nothing in comparison. There used to be a mill at Modoc Point on the reservation where we lived, mill at Algoma, a mill at Pelican City, several mills in Klamath Falls, a mill at Pine Ridge just north of Chiloquin, a mill on the Spring River, and by the time termination had come around so much of those, so many of those particular places on the reservation were gone and disappeared. |
| [6,53] So they have been struggling with the economy for a long, long time at that basin and while we were still a tribal unit, and we still had our reservation. With the federal government's help, we were able to develop a sustained management of our timber resources and so we were able to protect the natural resources and we were able to protect the ecological environment of the reservation lands. But with the termination process it took all that away from us it took all that responsibility away from us, even though we had little to say about how it was managed through tribal council action, we could influence what we wanted to happen to the reservation, how much timber to sell, how much water to lease out to farmers and that type of thing. We had that much control, but with termination, we lost all of that control, and I read about the water crisis issues in Klamath County today and I, we saw that coming a long, long time ago. |
| [6,54] Linc Kesler And even now this year, after last year, of course, the big crisis, but now this year there's major problems with the salmon. |
| [6,55] Morrie Jimenez With the fish grounds. But anyway through this process of getting an education and moving from one educational experience to another and learning one lesson after another lesson through the years, I eventually got an opportunity to go to work for the state department as the Indian education specialist. During my first years with them, and then the second two years with them, I was able to spend time with the civil rights specialist. Well those two opportunities did two things for me. They put me back into the community as the Indian education specialist, they put me back into the communities that had not been terminated, but they also exposed me to those communities that had been terminated long before we were. |
| [6,56] So, I developed a knowledge base that allowed me to begin putting together some answers to all the questions that I had developed internally a lot about why things were happening in Indian communities. That knowledge base allowed me then to develop new strategies, personal strategies, as to how I was going to deal with that as an individual, and how I needed to find some way to help other communities in understanding the history of termination and its impacts on the Klamath reservation. I had to become a student again and spent a lot of time as an Indian education specialist. I was, my initial responsibility was to establish what we referred to as Title 9 Indian education programs because of federal legislation that began providing Indian education funds for tribal communities. |
| [6,57] Linc Kesler We're almost at the end of our tape. We'll start another one. But that's sort of getting us off to another phase and before we leave what you've been talking about today, I'm struck by the story of your return to the Klamath basin with your family. At that point you had a lot of experiences. You had some really positive work experiences that have come out of the whole process of your education, and you know really given you a way to have pretty positive effect in doing work that you enjoyed. You've had a couple of very negative experiences, it sounds like, in both work and living environments. And then on your return you saw that the, you had the opportunity to work in the school system back in what had been the reservation community, but you found that the school system hadn't changed very much. The social structure of the tribe was not what it had been because of termination. |
| [6,58] And then you've seen the transformation of a landscape that followed the termination with sort of extraction of resources and all of that. That's, you know you've seen a lot of changes in the situation and you've been through a lot of changes yourself. Where did that leave you, sort of, in how you were thinking of yourself and your relationship to society in a general sense, to the process that the tribe had been through, to the tribe as it now existed in those circumstances, and how did it, where was it leaving you in your thinking about of all of those things? |
| [6,59] Morrie Jimenez Well, what happened initially is that I slipped back as a result of that experience, moving back there then and realizing all those things. I slipped back into a what would you call it, I slipped back into a kind of a negative attitude again, that all dealt with a sense of having no power to change what I was observing, as situations that needed to be changed, that needed to be addressed, a powerlessness, if you will. The thing that sustained me through that, and even periods of depression, was being amongst my family, who took the time to recognize my feelings, and then took the time also to begin doing what they had always done, encouraging me to fight through it, encouraging me and reminding me, like my Aunt Helen did before that, and my Mother had done for a long time, and others had done, and encouraging me to sustain a positive attitude, and the importance of sustaining a positive attitude, that would benefit me as an individual, but also would hopefully benefit others in the tribal community. But the encouragement was still there, and then there was a need to sustain in a positive attitude, that I couldn't allow myself to slip back into a "do nothing" kind of attitude. |
| [6,60] Linc Kesler But they were, it sounds like they were quite aware that these experiences were taking a toll on you. |
| [6,61] Morrie Jimenez Oh yeah. They were very aware of the kinds of experiences I was being exposed to and trying to negotiate a more positive working relationship within that school system, and they knew the frustrations. They were very sensitive to the frustrations that I was feeling for not being able to negotiate with my chief administrator, with the school board activities and actions that I thought would benefit the tribal communities as a whole. They sensed that and so they took every opportunity to try to convince me that there was a need for me to stay positive and stay strong if things were going to change, because, at that particular point in time, I was the only Native American professional on staff. |
| [6,62] We had non-certified staff who were working with the local school district as custodians, as librarians and aids and that kind of thing. But I was the only Native American in, particularly Klamath, Native American person who had ever been hired and working in the local school district. So through their efforts, I was able to sustain myself enough to maintain a positive force on their behalf, through the two years of, what I really saw a need to begin extending my efforts somewhere else. The way the situation was, the political situation was, at that particular point in time, I had now become convinced that was not going to be able to do that there. |
| [6,63] So that's when I took the opportunity because I ran into a couple of specialists with the state department of education who came down to evaluate federal programs, Title 1 programs, Title 4 programs, and so forth, who recognized my abilities and my capacities, who offered me a job at the state department as the Indian education specialist. And then evaluating where they wanted, sitting down with them, two individuals, who came down and shared with me what it was that they hoped that they could do at the state department education for Indian communities across the state. I took that on as another mission that, I took that on as well as another opportunity to expand my service to communities and expand my capacities to deal with situations like this, because I, what they shared with me was that my situation at Chiloquin was not unique. That many communities were having those same problems. Particularly as they related to the ability to provide a more pluralistic approach to education for Indian students, and so I stepped into that role which proved to be a tremendous move to me in my overall development as a professional educator and also my overall development, to begin articulating Indian education needs across the state. |
| [6,64] Linc Kesler Well it sounds as if one of the really fortunate things about your career path was that you were both that you were able to move, and sensitive to the opportunities, in recognizing that by moving around you had a higher probability of accomplishing something than if you had stayed in situations which, for the time, just didn't have much promise in them. |
| [6,65] Morrie Jimenez Right, and I think, also I can't understate the importance of those community members who came to me and encouraged me to sustain a positive attitude, encouraged me, the need for, not me, for Indian educators to negotiate school systems who traditionally didn't have a sensitivity or understanding of the history of Indian and non-Indian relations. The history of what's happening to Indian tribes across the state, and how educational systems had contributed a lot to that, and the fact that, because they were reluctance to examine the educational systems, the methodologies, the philosophies of education, that would allow for more involvement of the trial communities in their personal education, and so I can't understate the influence that my relatives and my, which also includes my nuclear family, my extended family, in our culture when you talk about your relatives you talk about all the people in the community. You just can't imagine the number of people who took the time to come by during my periods of frustration and anger, to remind me that there's a bigger picture ahead, and it was their perception that I had a role to play in altering that big picture. |
| [6,66] Linc Kesler I'm afraid we're going to have to stop there at least for a minute because we are at the end of our tape. |
|
Session 7 |
| [7,1] Linc Kesler It's October 15, 2002 and I'm back again with Morrie Jimenez, and today . . . when we finished talking last time we had been talking about some of circumstances, Morrie, when you moved through your education, moved out of the reservation community and on to high school and then college with the intention of gaining the skills necessary to negotiate the world off the reservation. Then you described as well some of your early experiences teaching and your return to the reservation and some of those experiences had been, sounds like they had been fairly difficult, and they had presented you with the some of the changes that happened historically with the tribe and then also some of the bumps in the road of working in the broader community. I know that you have described before a period a little later than that when you began doing work that was much more directed towards a kind of an activism and things like civil rights and Indian education. So, I was wondering if you might want to talk a little bit about that period and what pushed you in that direction and how that unfolded for you. |
| [7,2] Morrie Jimenez Okay, we talked previously about my initial teaching experiences at, in several communities up through about 1969, between 1961 and 1969. I had moved into the Salem public schools and started the middle school level and eventually wound up in the high schools primarily because of my desire to get back into high school coaching. I had really had good years at the middle school level about four years and another five years at one of the big high schools here in the city of Salem. But at the, near the end of my, that experience at the high school situation where I decided that it was time, as I had shared with you before, to expose my kids to their cultural base. I wanted them to share an experience whereby they would get to know their family, the reservation family, and the reservation ties. |
| [7,3] They had already established ties with their mother's side of the family because of circumstances involving her health, whereby our kids wound up staying with her parents for, off and on, or visiting her parents off and on during that period of time that I was in Salem between 1961 and 1969. So they had pretty good experience, learning experience, and had developed very good relations with my mother's parents, but they still had not much experience with other than an occasional visitation back to my home community, where they had short and brief experiences of sitting with my aunt, sitting with my mother and father, and they had very little experience of knowledge of the reservation experience that I had grown up in. |
| [7,4] So at the end of '69 I also decided that it was possible for us to, if it was possible for us to go back into Klamath County in an effort to expose our children to as much of the reservation experience as it was then, at that particular time, because it was a number of years after termination had occurred for the Klamath tribe. We knew it was going to be, it could not be the same experience that I grew up in, but we knew that there were enough people and enough of the cultural experiences left around that hopefully they would gain some benefit from being exposed to the kind of experience that I had gone through. So we went back to Klamath County and, I shared this previously with you, because I was able to get a position with Klamath County schools in 1971, and we stayed for two years working, and I've already explained my frustrations with working in that particular system, and I dealt with my primary inability to develop a sensitivity and an understanding of what the public school were doing in dealing with Indian students and sharing with them my perception. |
| [7,5] My perception was based on a number of good years and with good administrators with good teachers and in fairly good school systems with the exception of that one or two years that we spent in Whatcom community. But even that had some kind of benefit to it, but after two years back in the Klamath County school system working at the high school level at Chiloquin, I had reached a point of frustration and disenchantment with what was going on with the way that they were operating in their educational process, that I decided to come back to the Salem area into a system again that I was very comfortable working with and had very positive experiences, and so I came back into the Salem public school systems, but I really didn't expect another couple of years back in the system before I was approached by a specialist, a director of a program in the state department of education who offered me a position. |
| [7,6] I had met him as a result of my experience in Chiloquin, being back in Chiloquin, and had worked with him in his efforts to review title programs, federal programs, funding projects that, whereby Chiloquin had received some of those federal fundings, and so I had occasion to meet with him and talk with him, and he remembered the experiences and offered me a job at, ah, when he found out I was going to leave Chiloquin he had offered me a job, but I had to decided to go back to the Salem public school system because I needed a reprieve and a rest from the experiences that I had while I was down in that county. But the next year in 1972, I did accept a position with the state department of education as a coordinator of a civil rights programs, and we in a period of time where in history in the state when local school districts, as a result of the civil rights movement that occurred across the country in the 50's and the 60's, we were still feeling the impacts of desegregation efforts and refined civil rights programs in school systems across the country. |
| [7,7] The state department of education was still involved with local school districts ensuring that they were meeting civil rights mandates regarding desegregation efforts and the effort to provide equal education opportunities for all students in the States. So I took that job with the department of education and worked in the area of civil rights and that experience exposed me to a number of other experiences that eventually reinforced my belief that there was a great deal that school systems needed to do if in fact we were going to meet the needs, specific needs and unique needs of kids who for one reason or another were not being provided any equal educational opportunity. I wound up monitoring and assisting local school districts in ensuring that they had put together their equal educational opportunities and plans, and that they coincided with and met requirements of the office of rights out of Washington, D.C. and our state at that time had made a commitment to assist school districts and ensuring that they were meeting civil rights and mandates. |
| [7,8] So as a specialist in civil rights I worked with school districts but I also was made available, as a result of my job description, to other states who were working in that same area, to do nothing more than share the state of Oregon was doing. I made several trips in other states to do nothing more than to share progress in Oregon was making in ensuring that local school districts were meeting our civil demands and our civil rights and in areas of responsibility. It also afforded me opportunities to initiate contact with tribal communities at the same time, because their tribal enrollments in the local public school systems, and at this particular point in time in history, tribal needs were being identified nationally as well as regionally and state-wide. Prior to that particular point in time, because tribes had always been perceived as not having the same needs as other ethnic minority interests because the federal, they were perceived as being wards of the federal government and that there was a federal government responsibility, and you didn't have to worry about those kinds of things with the tribe for tribal children. |
| [7,9] That began changing with the civil rights impacts and tribal enrollments across the country we were now in tribal communities and we were being included in civil rights efforts to ensure equal rights educational opportunity for young people. So that was my initial contact back into the communities and those initial contacts took me into the Pendleton area, and it took me into the Warm Springs, and it took me back to my community, and it took me back into other communities, tribal communities that I was not familiar with at that particular point in time. So I began meeting people in the tribal communities to discuss tribal education needs, and the more knowledgeable I became about what had happened, what was happening to tribal youth in the area of K-12 (kindergarten to grade 12) education, the more interested I became and the more time I began developing a stronger base, and a more stronger knowledge base, but the history of education as our rights to providing for the needs of Indian children and it took me back to, it took my experiences back into learning more about the early reservation schools that developed, boarding school systems that developed at that particular point in time. |
| [7,10] The on-reservation boarding schools had been developed at that particular time, the development of post-secondary education development opportunities Haskell Institute. So those experiences just kindled my interest in learning more about what the educational process as it was, and I began developing spending time with people, learned people, who had spent significant time in civil rights issues, but I also started running into Indian people who developed their own ideas of what had to happen in the educational systems if, in fact, we were going to change the patterns that were not providing much in terms of positive impacts where we wanted our Indian children to be. |
| [7,11] So, I stayed with them for two years as the civil rights specialist and then I was offered a job in 1973 by the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs, who had in the midst of all this civil rights activity across the country and also within the state, had identified a need relating to the need for more pluralistic oriented teachers to serve in their district. They identified a need within their own school district a number of different needs relating to what happened and what had to happen in their local school districts, if, in fact, the needs, of their own educational needs of their children would be met. |
| [7,12] One of those impact areas along with the curriculum, along with more reciprocal community and interaction, meaning reciprocal community participation, was the teacher education. They really felt they didn't have enough teachers to help them meet the needs of their children who were sensitive to the cultural experiences that impacted their ability to learn, and also the existing school district policies, procedures and methodologies that were not creating a kind of situation that they would like to have, and, of course, the reason for that they were concerned with the numbers that were not getting through the education process the number of kids who were entering and involved in the school systems and yet were not completing their education within that K through 12 system. |
| [7,13] They were concerned also with their growing need for people post-secondary education experiences that would allow them to meet their individual tribal needs to move forward in an attempt to become self-governing units. What had occurred by that time was congressional legislation that finally allowed tribes to move into self-determining, self-governing process as opposed to what they had been exposed to in the past where being wards of the federal government where most of the decisions were being made for them politically, economically and socially. The result was impacted by Bureau of Indian Affairs' responsibilities for providing for tribes, monitoring what tribes were doing and that type of thing. |
| [7,14] So, the educational process and what was occurring to their children in the school system was a tremendous, tremendous interest to them. So they had somebody write up a proposal that spoke to the teacher education aspect of that, and the proposal very simply to identify Native American professionals already in the post-secondary institutions, and proposed to bring five of those people in a year over a five year period, Native American, they're professionals who were ready to come within, in fact, who were within thirty hours I think is what they called, within thirty hours of completing a four or five year program leading them to a degree, and then bring them in and have them complete their final year in the education field to get the certificated and to get them accredited by the teaching education systems in the individual states, and then create a pool of Native American educators that they would have access to initially and they could take any number of the graduates they wanted and offer them a position within the Jefferson County school system and began putting pluralistically oriented teachers into the system that would have the potential to assist their children in getting through the process at a higher success ratio than they had in the past. |
| [7,15] So that was the intent. It was called the Warm Springs Teacher Intern Project. So they approached me primarily because through my civil rights effort at the state level and my initial contact with the Warm Springs community, I had worked with a number of their council members. I had worked with a number of their program, tribal program people directors and managers. One of them was a person I developed very positive relationship with and had worked with him on state educational efforts to improve education for Indian students in the state, and had sat on a number of advisory boards with that person. So he was at that particular time was one of the guiding officials of the tribe and had remembered our past experiences, and so he came to me and offered me a position to direct, to be the on-site director of that federally funded teacher education project. |
| [7,16] So I went and met with him, he and representees of the tribe and talked about the proposal they had submitted to get funded for to the tune of several million dollars, five year project. His intent was to bring five Native American educators in within that thirty hour parameter that they had established who were near ready to graduate but had to spend that final year. I met with them, and we worked and went to Oregon State University and asked, the tribe had already done that initially, because they had already developed relationships with Oregon State University, and had developed a comfort level with them and their education program enough to go and say, "would you be willing to be the institution to provide the official training and the official accreditation for the students, and also would you be willing to set up a program within your institution that would allow us to fulfill the goals and the objectives and the mission of this proposal?" |
| [7,17] Oregon State University at that particular time said yes, and would do that. So then they went back to their local school district, and they had already done considerable work with the local school districts, and were successful enough at that particular point in time to negotiate with the local school district wanting to become the third partner in that proposal and that process. So we had Oregon State University and Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs and the local school districts of the county who agreed to be to enter this collaborative effort to prepare more pluralistically attuned educators in an effort to get the hired in the local school districts. I spent three years on that project as the on-site director of that project, and that experience of being on-site director and working in cohorts with educational representative. Oregon State had assigned one of their education staff to be the campus based partner in getting that program developed and implemented. I was fortunate that the man assigned to work in that became a true cohort a true partner and very willing to explore what needed to be done with the curriculum, the existing curriculum at that particular point in time. |
| [7,18] So I developed another opportunity to expand my growing knowledge base regarding educational processes and methodologies that were atypical of what was going on in most teacher education institutions and would allow for a complimentary curriculum to be included and inserted into their package of teacher education and so together with Carvell Woods and I we put together a curriculum that we thought would better prepare teachers who were going to work in Indian communities that included not only what was traditional at the college educational program, but also insert other objectives and learning methodologies that we thought would produce a better trained teacher that would be more sensitive to the needs of Indian children. |
| [7,19] So that program even after I left existed for another two years but in that process again as I said it did nothing more than what with the civil rights experience and that project just increased my desire to find out more about what we could do for not only Indian youngsters but ethnic minority youngsters, what we needed to do for any child brought to the school system with a unique need that for one reason or another was not being met. So I got into the whole area of equal education opportunity. I became, the desegregation effort as civil rights of the student, desegregation activity as a result of my civil rights activity with the state department and education experience with the state department was the initial stage in that development at the Warm Springs Intern Project expanded that effort, and then after three years because of personal needs of my family we moved back into the same school district, Carvell Woods finished that program there then they ran out of money. But that project was deemed successful and became, brought high credibility to Oregon State University and the State of Oregon for allowing that type of venture. It also had national credibility and recognition for its effort. |
| [7,20] We wound up certifying, training and certifying twenty-two of the twenty-five people that we brought in for that five year period. Warm Springs hired several graduates out of that program and the rest of the graduates, I know one of those guys went back to his own community and became a part of the teacher educational force back in his own community in the State of Washington. I was one of those, Warm Springs hired initially I think three or four of that initial batch, over the first two years and hired a couple more before the project was over. Umatilla benefited from that. Portland School District benefited, they hired a couple of those people. Klamath County School District hired one or two of those people as a result of that. I moved from that back to the Salem public schools and spent another two years and then I went, I decided at that time to go back to Klamath County because I was approached, I retired in 1988, and as I retired I was approached by the existing people who were working for the tribe at that particular point in time, because the Klamath tribe had been restored in 1986. They were, the Restoration Act was passed in 1986 by the United States Congress that allowed the Klamath tribe to reclaim its recognition as a tribe within the federal system. |
| [7,21] By 1988, they were in the process of putting the government back together and upon my retirement the existing chairman of the tribal council and the general manager approached me and asked if I'd be willing to come down to work with them in reference to redesign their tribal government and get it moving again, because there was a lot of work that had to be accomplished by the Klamath tribe. One of the initial priorities that they had on their agenda was to put together a government and then to meet a federal obligation to put together an economic self-sufficiency plan that they had submitted back to Congress as proof that they were working on getting back to where they were prior to the period of termination. So I went back to the Klamath tribe and spent almost a year with them doing nothing more than serving initially as a consultant to their efforts, a writer, I met with the tribal council on a regular basis and began putting together in paper form their government. |
| [7,22] Then near the end of the first year, they lost their general manager so I served a half a year as the leader of general manager till such time as they...so that not only expanded my knowledge and my experience level in terms of Indian education in the state-wide level and on a national level, but also in terms of Klamath tribal level. It took me back to a community where I had left, gone back to, and had left, and I was back in a different capacity offering advice again to local governments particularly in the area of developing positive community relationships at the local and county levels and state levels. After I left at the end of that year serving as a consultant and general manager I served another year as their, much later on, as their chairman of their general council that was about ten years later. |
| [7,23] I was asked to come back in the interim between 1988 and at that period of time I went back to serving as an educational consultant initially to the state coalition on higher education which was a coalition of tribal representatives and higher institutional representatives who met primarily for the purpose of doing what they can to enhance and expand educational opportunities for Indian youngsters in our state at higher educational levels and that was a very positive experience, and a very good experience, and it took me into another realm where I had worked initially in K through 12 areas. It took me into the higher education areas and I was to develop again and expand my knowledge and expertise in the area of improving educational opportunity for youngsters at that level, and during that same period of time between 1988 and 1989, my year of retirement, my year of working with the tribe and 1990 an 1995, I served not only the coalition, but I served also I got back into the business of serving as a consultant of the tribes, and the state educational agency to expanding some educational opportunities with the state for our youngsters through the state educational institutions and including now at the higher education level. |
| [7,24] That took me back into the communities again and put me back into spending more time in local areas and expanding my relationships and my contacts with people who I had initiated contact back at that point in time in the 70's, when I served as civil rights in Indian education specialist and so that whole experience did nothing more than expand my personal knowledge and experience in the whole area of assessing where school districts are, and determining areas that school districts needed to bolster their educational practices and procedures and methodologies, with an ultimate aim of improving educational opportunity for Indian youngsters in the State of Oregon. I participated as the, my involvement back with tribes and educational representatives of the different tribes placed into position, and eventually particularly when I was working with the state department as an Indian education specialist, of being asked by tribal representatives to serve as a coordinating director of an effort to take what we had learned in the state and education and educational needs of children to a National White House conference in that period of time. |
| [7,25] So, I was able to work very successfully with tribal representatives across the state in meetings and in designing recommendations for that National White House conference on Indian education that was another experience, and did nothing more than to enhance my knowledge and my experiential knowledge in terms of who we were in Indian education and what we needed to be, particularly as it related to Indian children, but at the same time my civil rights experience had also expanded my knowledge and experiential levels to include eventually what we needed to do in the public school systems, if, in fact, all children were going to be afforded educational opportunity. |
| [7,26] Linc Kesler Could you talk a little bit more about the, it sounds like that period between the time that you were working primarily as a classroom teacher and then the later period where you were more the kind of design educational design, that area, sounds like that civil rights period was kind of a critical bridge between those two periods, and I'm wondering what that, what the civil rights work brought to your experience and understanding. |
| [7,27] Morrie Jimenez Well I think the combination of my responsibility to the state department of education as title civil rights coordinator, as I shared with ... before, was to ensure that local school districts were had plans in place that would be responsive to the OCR, Office of Civil Rights, mandates, speaking to plans to that needed to developed and implemented to ensure that all students within the school systems, and in particular the minority children needs would be met. So that required some additional perspective involving what we could do with, not only children, but what we needed to do with developing reciprocal arrangements between communities, because communities at that particular point in time, there was not a lot of effort to ensure that communities would be involved in this whole process. |
| [7,28] The mandates of the civil rights mandates that occurred as a result of desegregation efforts across the country, beginning back in the 60's, became more and more sophisticated. The more the years that passed between those early years in the 60's and the beginning of the 70's and 80's, those plans, those recommendations that were coming out of our communities that eventually allowed for more community involvement, became more and more sophisticated, became more and more involved in terms of what has to happen at the local school districts if in fact we were Black children, Asian children and Hispanic children, Native American children, blind children, handicapped children, female students, if that, what needed to happen, if, in fact, we were going to be able to do that so in working in that area and assisting the state in developing plans to meet those mandates and those recommendations. I wound up spending a lot of time with people who had a great deal of knowledge and expertise in this area in this state. But also I wound up sitting on a national desegregation council for five years. |
| [7,29] The national desegregation council had a specific mission to, through the eyes of high school students, assess where we were in this whole desegregation effort and in an effort to get that assessment, the assessment of where we were. The ultimate aim was to take those recommendations from that particular group and those students, and expand our efforts in the whole area of providing a more integrated, a more pluralistic educational process as opposed to where we had been. Where we had been involved desegregation that had occurred for a long period of time, the desegregation efforts, and then we were moving in a new direction in a more pluralistic approach and more integrated and pluralistic approach to education that would guarantee an equal education opportunity for the majority of the youngsters as opposed to just a select few. |
| [7,30] So the experiences of working with tribal units were working basically along the same path same lines same lines of thinking educational opportunity, quality education, but different educational approach combined with my efforts in the area of civil rights and my involvement with the National Desegregation Council. That was a heck of an experience, it was something that really, really pushed me forward in terms of my identified need to become more knowledgeable of what had occurred in the past in the area of segregation and desegregation, and how that reflects upon where we were going in the future. |
| [7,31] I sat for five years with nationally known figures we met in Chicago television station, Channel 11, WTTW I think, was assigned responsibility for promoting this project was given a great deal of money to promote this. What it involved was very simply putting together national advisory council who would develop a plan for procuring the insights and from high school students and so the advisory council identified specific high schools across the country that they felt needed to be included in this project, and in many cases the recommendations involved sights that they were very familiar with, that they represented, that they were represented well. So we went, we selected in that initial attempt 25 sites across the country in places like Chicago and Detroit, places like New York City and places like Macon, Georgia and Atlantic, and in the Native American sites it was like in Arizona, Rapid City, South Dakota and Navajo, there's a site on the Navajo reservation and Gallop, New Mexico. There was a site here on the Pacific Coast that we selected also I think it was in the State of Washington it's been so many years ago. |
| [7,32] The project called for very simply identifying sites and going in and try to sell the project to particular school districts and school system, but in the schools more than anything else, and then training high school youngsters to serve as television cameramen and train them to become script writers, train them to be grips, nothing more than grips setting up and taking down and identifying filming sites, and taking trained production crews and developing production crews within the high school population and also developing a community relations to establish community relations we needed that very simply. We wanted their permission to come in there and do those kinds of things at that particular high school. |
| [7,33] So, sitting on that council allowed me the opportunity to visit a lot of those sites and sit down with those national leaders people who had a great vast of experience in areas, in desegregation and the development of the new civil rights pluralistic education at that particular point in time. So, coupled with my experience of going through that same kind of experience in Indian education, it did nothing more than to enhance my ability to begin articulating needs of Indian children and, of course, the needs of children in general, particularly those children whose needs were not currently being met, and, as you recall, we went through several phases of civil rights efforts, beginning with the needs of black children, and we expanded the needs of all ethnic minority children. We developed laws in congress, passed laws to ensure that we moved very strongly in that direction, and then we really identified the needs of handicapped children. We developed laws to ensure that handicapped children's needs were being met. |
| [7,34] We moved into the sex equity issues and we developed laws that began addressing the needs of female students in the public school system, and then it became identified as a national need to take a look beyond just the school systems. We began looking at national issues, and we began looking at national needs in areas such as sex equity needs, sex discrimination, and those kinds of things. So, all of that helped me to become developing initially a knowledge base, it allowed me to share with, my state, in-state, experience, and those people that became involved in the in-state experience, I began a career in becoming a consultant at educational institutions of higher education in terms of equity issues as related to educational needs of young people. My involvement with post secondary as executive director of Indian coalition of post secondary education expanded almost nine, ten years. It did a great deal for me in being able to articulate eventually needs of Native American youngsters in the post secondary area. |
| [7,35] That experience with that coalition provided me with opportunities to sit down with college staffs and deans instead of professionals of education, who were with special services staffing and administrative staff, and talk about what currently was going on in their areas to that would enhance educational opportunities for Native American youngsters, and it allowed me an opportunity to share with them my experiences that I had developed in working in other areas, and again in identifying, help them identify other avenues that might be open to us to expand educational opportunities for Native American youngsters, and that was supplemented by my experience with tribal units in the State of Oregon. It allowed me to sit down and my experiences allowed me to sit down with tribal education leaders across the state and also on a national scale. |
| [7,36] I sat down with national leaders in other states in education, and so it allowed me to go in and sit down and with specific group of institution representatives at a college or university or community college and say, "okay here's what we'd like to, here's the kind of arrangement we'd like to establish for you." So it was always like, "why do we need to do that?" and so I had enough experience at that particular point and say, "well, listen, this is what the tribes have identified as needs this is what my experience has taken me," and I was also able to articulate examples and models of what was occurring at other states and other regions and other locales that were proving to be a tremendous benefit to why I identified the need to expand up for Indian youngsters in the post secondary institutions. |
| [7,37] When you put all that together of course I wasn't doing that while this was occurring, but initially since my retirement I've been able to sit down and reflect upon all that, and I can identify all those things that occurred in my past that allowed me to become an advocate for primary school aged children, but also for people interested in post secondary educational opportunities. |
| [7,38] So when I think of, I don't think it happened as an accident, I think it happened as a result that I can trace back to my time back on the reservation as a youngster. Back to that period of time when my grandmother, aunt and my mother sat me down and said, "we want you to get a good education and here's why we want you to get a good education," and it was all aimed at a mission that would hopefully allow me to come back and share not only with my people but also with other Indian people, and of course it expanded into a much bigger needs I would end up representing, people's needs in a number of different areas. It all evolved directly and indirectly with the education and so at this point in my life I feel very good, and I've said this before I feel very good about what was initiated back there almost 60 years ago with my initial, the initial charge relayed to me, informal charge of getting a good education in the hopes that you can utilize that education to benefit others. |
| [7,39] Linc Kesler When you were talking once again about that civil rights period, one of the things that seemed to provide for you was the opportunity to work with other groups of people outside of Indian education in sort of a broader arena of civil rights across the country, and then that enabled you to bring back some of those experiences and work with them in Indian communities. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what it was like coming out of your background in Indian education, to work in that kind of, in most broader coalitions, you must have encountered many different attitudes and approaches to the projects you were involved in. |
| [7,40] Morrie Jimenez That's a really good question, and that a...you're right I wound up moving to the area of civil rights and moving outside of the focus I had initially of Indian education willing to work with the national desegregation council and being responsible for post civil rights planning here in the State of Oregon and development. I wound up working with representatives in the Black community in northeast Portland. I wound up working with Asian representatives out of the State of Washington and in California, and sitting with them and listening to them identify their needs and recommendations of where the school system can go. I also sat down with representatives with Hispanic communities that existed in our state and across the Pacific Northwest. I sat down with Hawaiian representatives and listened to their very similar kinds of needs identified for their students in their own communities in the Hawaiian Islands. |
| [7,41] I sat down in groups that include representatives of a number of different faiths of a number of different ethnic representations, Muslims; I really wound up with many opportunities to listen to educational needs identified in a number of different communities. So I gained a lot of perspective with them but it was interesting to me that there was so little information I think the thing that I felt was that there was a tremendous need for me is making sure that I understood what the educational needs of Indian children are because I was asked to articulate that. Being asked to articulate that to all these other groups this diverse array of people that I was working with I found out that it was critical that I develop a stronger base of understanding about what the needs the specific needs of Indian children are in the public school systems, and that forced me to go back to school and in my work with the state department my work with Oregon State University it offered me opportunities to get a college education at that particular point in time. |
| [7,42] I only picked up a BS and a BA degree initially and had started working on my master's degree but I never finished it. My work at the state department at Oregon State University had forced me to go back and take classes that were made available, and I could do that because I was able to do that at no cost or minimal cost to my efforts, which initially had because of the size of our family and our efforts to provide for our own children, the economic situation for us created a situation where I wasn't able to get back to school on a regular basis to complete that extended training. My experience with the state department and all the other experiences I described, brought me experiences, brought me knowledge that I questioned whether I could have got within the formal institutional offerings at that particular point in time. |
| [7,43] But I was able to go back and take classes to reinforce what it was I was learning at Western Oregon or Oregon State I took classes at Western Oregon that were a part of their master's education curriculum, coupled with the experiences that the on site experiences with community peoples from a diverse array, a diverse population, I really felt that, I didn't realize this until later, I really thought, I had pretty much fulfilled where I wanted to go with my personal goals. |
| [7,44] But the experiences I had with working with this diverse array of people, in most cases were, taught me so much and it helped me focus in on the needs of children, the unique needs of a lot of the children in our school systems, that for one reason or another were not being met by locals. It gave me a broader base of understanding about the needs of Indian children but also the needs of all kinds of children and what the school systems, so it also prepared me better to serve my consultant function and advisory function to state educational agencies, and the state systems of higher education and that type of thing. I was so fortunate that I ran into so many people, but at the same time there was a lot of teaching I had to do even working with those people who were experts in their own field, because there were so many misperceptions about the needs of Indian children. There were so many misperceptions about tribal communities and how and what had happened to tribal communities and the history of federal Indian relations and the impacts it had on tribal communities on their ability to self-determine where they wanted to go. |
| [7,45] I wound up becoming a student of federal Indian relations and I wound up being a student of Indian education and the needs of Indian education. So wherever I had to go I had to articulate that need to the people that I was working with, and what they did for me I also wound up having to do for them. The fact that everybody perceived us as federal wards of the federal government having all the money in the world that we needed, and never having to worry about making major decisions because we had all the federal government backing us up was one of the biggest misperceptions that I had to deal with. And what was happening to Indian children, the history of the Indian communities through the years I wound up having to become a student advocate eventually asked to be a teacher of federal Indian state relations and where Indian tribes wanted to go and needed to go in fact if they were going to be able to meet their goals and their mission. |
| [7,46] It was difficult at times because I also discovered in that whole area of civil rights there were unintentional hierarchies that developed relative to where the priority monies and where the priority efforts should be made, should be established. Initially if you know anything at all about the civil rights movement, initially began with the Black rights movement in this country, and eventually expanded as I've already articulated and I've already showed you, it expanded into the needs of other ethnic minority groups across the country, and the sex equity issues and so forth. There, for example, the unintentional hierarchy priority developing system in the higher education system, when we established the state coalition in higher education...my first recommended actions to the board of directors, was that I should start meeting with institutional representatives and ask them very simply, "what are you doing for Indian children. What are you doing to enhance educational opportunity on your campus for Native American students?" |
| [7,47] The initial response I would get in most cases where colleges felt they were doing something was that you need to go talk to our people of the office of multicultural affairs. I found out very quickly that was their intent, their prior initiatives of very simply to establish an office of multicultural affairs and hire a staff to run that office and establish some initial procedures and then leave it in their hands. |
| [7,48] Well...in too many situations I found that if you were in a particular part of the state that the people who staffed the office of multicultural affairs were people who represented the majority ethnic community in that particular area. In another part of the state that was occurring also in another part of the state, you had no ethnic representation in their office of multicultural affairs, who were trying without any training, without any strong support system, to meet the needs articulated through the office of civil rights mandates that were being handed down and effecting K through 12 and colleges at that particular point in time. So I found out very simply that in most cases it was a particular group, staffing of a particular office or meeting of a particular groups' needs, and then an unintentional hierarchy established. They were supposed to represent all of minority students' needs, but there was an unintentional hierarchy the majority group community was number one. The second group was number two in terms of priority needs and there was a third group and a fourth group. In most cases I found Native American needs down at the bottom and that was in too many cases. |
| [7,49] So it was my responsibility to share with the institutional representatives that I was meeting with our perception that, of course, I couldn't say to them that this is what was happening, I had to say to them, "well for whatever reason we're here to say to you that we feel our needs haven't been met adequately. What we would like to do is offer some assistance to your staff in identifying our specific needs, and then begin developing strategies as to how we can help bring more students on campus, bring more of our students on campus." |
| [7,50] Also what needed to happen within the school process that would ensure and garner more involvement, and that we would have more students involved in through the process, if we were to increase our graduation rates and decrease the attrition and that type of thing, and we were able successfully to put together a number of programs in a number of different institutions that eventually helped us fulfill our mission to get more of our students in school and to get them in the program and get them out with certificates and diplomas and so forth, because we needed those people not only within our own communities to come back to us and better prepared, trained and educated to assist us in our efforts to move towards our goal of self-determination and self-government, but we also wanted to ensure that they would have the opportunities to the individual people to move where they wanted to participate and whatever venture they wanted to set forward to. |
| [7,51] That all resulted, all that ability to articulate needs, all the ability to help and work with communities in a reciprocal fashion, all my experiences that allowed me to fulfill what was identified as a mission a long, long time ago, occurred as a result of those kinds of experiences. The whole civil rights movement proved a boon to us ultimately because it called attention to needs fulfilling civil rights mandates on a broader scale. It's taken us a long time to get there, but we're still not where we need to be. There's still room for us to grow in this whole area of ensuring educational opportunity for all our young people and ensuring a social equality for ethnic minority groups and people/groups with unique needs across the country. We're getting there slowly but surely, but as you well know that whole civil rights effort comes and goes. I refer to it as being cyclical in nature, but at the same time we seem to be gathering and gaining momentum, of where we need to be and where we need to get. |
| [7,52] Linc Kesler Well thank you...we're at the end of our tape. |
|
Session 8 |
| [8,1] Linc Kesler: An incredibly beautiful location and now standing up here we can hear some traffic noise in the background, but when you were growing up there was no traffic noise here, I would imagine. |
| [8,2] Modesto Jimenez: No there wasn't, there was a very peaceful, quiet up here and like, give you a little description, where we're at now, is beginning of the former reservation, the Klamath reservation. Down underneath there, there's a spring called Barkley Springs, and that's the beginning of the reservation. As you look back over, we used to own, well, the former Reservation was worth about 880 acres, 880,000 acres of land that we had. And before that, when we signed the treaties, we signed the treaties for over 2 million acres, but due to erroneous surveys, we cut it down, first one it was down to a little over a million acres, and then the next one was 880, that we've never gotten. . . . through the surveys, we never, we lost. And before that, we had, through this area, we had, the Klamath Tribe owned, inhabited about 20 million acres. Through the treaties, that's what we ended up with, and then through Termination, I say that, that was all taken away from us. Through Congress and legislative. |
| [8,3] Linc Kesler: So, you went from having all of that land under tribal control to seeing it all pass into other hands. |
| [8,4] Modesto Jimenez: Yes we did. Most of it went to federal forest; Freemont, Winema National Forest, and, like, you look around here where's there's not very many trees, but further up on the Reservation we had one of the richest Ponderosa pine stands in whole United States, worth millions. And we earned a living off the revenues from the timber. And once we lost that, which we did vote on, but I'd say that it was taken from us, that we lost millions and millions of revenue for our tribe. |
| [8,5] Linc Kesler: Right, and when, when that timberland was still under the tribe's control, how . . . was the harvesting done on a pretty selective basis? |
| [8,6] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, it was. We keep very good track yield management plans. We had all kinds of plans. And we could just cut so much a year. And we took the revenue and supported all our tribal members. And that's what we lived on and upgraded our life styles. And once that was gone, we just . . . we did get a payment, settlement out of it, but that didn't last forever and we weren't, tribal members weren't educated and trained on how to spend that money. They, we would just say, ok here it is. And that was it. And our, we didn't know how to manage money. |
| [8,7] Linc Kesler: And in terms of the timber practices after the timber passed out of tribal hands, did the harvesting methods change very much? |
| [8,8] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, it did, very much. We got, we can go up and show you land up, further up, where there's a lot of clear cutting and through the clear cutting, they sold it, most of the timber wasn't sold to our local mills neither at the time. It was sold to the highest bidder, which was outside our area. So it ruined economically, not only in our reservation but in the Klamath County, 'cause we didn't get all that, resources. So a lot of our mills . . . pardon? |
| [8,9] Linc Kesler: It hurt everybody. |
| [8,10] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, everybody in the Klamath Basin got hurt on that. |
| [8,11] Linc Kesler: You're . . . Behind you of course, is this incredibly, still incredibly beautiful Upper Klamath Lake. It's just magnificent to look at. Was it much different when you were growing up? |
| [8,12] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, it was. It was cleaner, and there was more water in the lake at the time. As you know, the shorelines, it's really low now because of the irrigators south. Most of the water from this lake comes from about 60-70 miles up the road here, from our springs; it comes out of the mountains. We have the Williamson River, the Sprague River. we call it the "Head of the River", about 60 miles up the road here. That's where it starts gathering and forms. And then all the other springs and creeks and rivers blend into it, which forms this lake. And it goes down, and it, use it for irrigation further, the lower parts, and it goes all the way to the Klamath, California into the ocean, which, the lower tribes use for water, for their fish, salmon and everything too. |
| [8,13] Linc Kesler: Yeah. The last couple of years the water has been so controversial. Last year, it was the irrigation issue and this year, the fish dying in the lower reaches of the river. So all of that's new since . . . |
| [8,14] Modesto Jimenez: Well, it's not new to the tribes. We've been working on water quality and quantity. We got a lot good scientists, facts and everything that we've been showing, telling about for 20 years. But nobody has listened to us. And now we reached this catastrophe and they still call us poor scientists. |
| [8,15] Linc Kesler: Right. Finding excuses for the, keep going with it . . . |
| [8,16] Modesto Jimenez: Right, yes. So we hope to, we can settle that. We need more wet lands up here. And we're, there's only so much water up here. And we have to support our fishing. We don't really want to do it, have it for all us; we want to help everybody, agricultural people, the fish down streams, but there's no way we can. The state's supposed to be adjudicating the water, give so much water to each place, and they've been just not doing it. And the Federal Government had it at first, to get adjudication, but then they passed it on to the state. And we just worked with the state, and they just can't seem to come up with a plan. And they left, the Department of Reclamation, and they, I think they did a very poor planning job. 'Cause we have a lot of, our tribal fish is a sucker, chuam, we call, and they've been, they're listed on the Extinct List, but we haven't fished 'em for fifteen years, because we knew we was losing them. And have a hatchery, scientific hatchery up on the reservation, and we've been trying to get it built up and everything. It's just really tore us down. |
| [8,17] Linc Kesler: Yeah, you mentioned a bit earlier, when we talking, as a kid you used to go swimming in this lake and it was beautiful, and it was you know, a clear springs in the area and so forth. |
| [8,18] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, a lot of clear water springs were all through this area. Further up the lake, on the reservation land, we had property on the lake, cousins did, we used to go out on there and fish and swim. Used to go ice skating during the winter time, and then we got the rivers coming into it, used to go fishing there all the time, catch all kinds of fish. |
| [8,19] Linc Kesler: You were saying a minute ago, that the water quality in the lake is not as good as it used to be, what kinds of things affected that? |
| [8,20] Modesto Jimenez: Well, the biggest issue, I see is, up the basin, up the water basin, they have a lot of cattle up there, and we figure there's about a hundred thousand head of cattle, that, the waste material and everything else, pesticides and everything it goes into our streams and it comes into the lake. And like I said, we've been working on quality, but we can't do anything about it, unless we get help from the federal government. |
| [8,21] Linc Kesler: Right, you've got so many players involved. |
| [8,22] Modesto Jimenez: There's a lot of resources that we've got to follow up on, and if they would find out what the true scientific information is, we could something about helping the whole basin, not only our tribes. |
| [8,23] Linc Kesler: Yeah, so you've got a lot of run off problems, and then you've got just the decrease in the water level. |
| [8,24] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah. Lots of decrease. |
| [8,25] Linc Kesler: And I imagine, with the dropping in the water levels, you lose a lot of the marshlands too, because they would be . . . |
| [8,26] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, a lot of the marsh lands and the, our, well, we subsisted on way back, well, even when I was a kid, we had a, what we call a wocus plant, it's a water lily plant, that we harvested and dried 'em out, and there's a wocus seed in it that's very delicious. And it was, it was one of our main staples. And the tule plant. And we made, back then, they made, that's how we made our baskets and everything that we could make out of, spoons and everything. And also, the tule, when you pull it out, it has a real light, sweet meat in it. |
| [8,27] Linc Kesler: No kidding, I didn't know that. |
| [8,28] Modesto Jimenez: And that was staple that we ate. As kids, even the irrigation ditch, we'd pull 'em out and we got hungry we would just pull 'em out and eat the tule meat. |
| [8,29] Linc Kesler: Snacks on the run. |
| [8,30] Modesto Jimenez: Yep, with the fish, the salmon, our farms . . . The ranch I grew up on is about 15 miles from here. And when we went, there's mountain ranges like this back there too, and when we went up in the hills, rode horses or anywhere, we'd just go up and we'd dry the sucker fish, and we just tear strips off it, and off we'd go, and that'd be our meals for all day long, a whole group of us too, there was about fifteen or twenty of us that ran around together up a, the Modoc Point area. |
| [8,31] Linc Kesler: Yeah, well maybe, we'll have a chance to go up and look at that area. |
| [8,32] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, we'll go there from here. |
| [8,33] Linc Kesler: OK. Well before we leave here, we're over looking an area here, and just going to stop the camera for a second and relocate so we can see. Ok, we're looking now, this is to the south from this hill that we're standing on, and we're looking at this flat plain area, and we were just down there a few minutes ago, this was the site of, the town of Algoma, which was a big mill when you were growing up? |
| [8,34] Modesto Jimenez: Yes it was, my dad worked here in the late 40's, early 50's, and it was a great big mill on the far side of the agriculture part of it. And that mill covered a maybe, a mile circumference and it was mostly the, well our family, my dad worked there, and we, that's there's a little school that my brothers went to. And during the timber, when the timber went down, that closed out, and just all the buildings, and everything was gone. We had grocery stores, just everything there for that, this little village needed. |
| [8,35] Linc Kesler: And how many people do you figure were living there at that time? |
| [8,36] Modesto Jimenez: Oh I'd figure about 250, 300 members. Along that far hill there, there was homes, about half, oh, quarter of the ways up that hill there. And they're all gone now. |
| [8,37] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,38] Modesto Jimenez: That's due to timber; we had our own schools, school there. And all different races: Hispanics, Italians, Germans, we just a community for everybody. |
| [8,39] Linc Kesler: And how did everybody get along, that kind of situation? |
| [8,40] Modesto Jimenez: Oh we had a terrific time, we got along with everybody. Everybody met together, enjoyed each other, and had our little picnics together, company picnics and stuff. |
| [8,41] Linc Kesler: Morrie mentioned that, during, I don't know if you remember this, but there were some Japanese Americans living in there too. |
| [8,42] Modesto Jimenez: Oh yes, yeah Gabby, and Mary and Willy, I don't remember the last name. |
| [8,43] Linc Kesler: And he said that during the war, they were among the people who were interned in the internment camps and they pretty much just kind of disappeared over night. |
| [8,44] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, they went into the Tule Lake area, an internment camp down there. They took 'em away from us, sent them down there, and we never seen 'em, never seen them again. I think they were just embarrassed that they had to go through that situation. |
| [8,45] Linc Kesler: Yeah, well I can imagine it was a tough one for them. |
| [8,46] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah. |
| [8,47] Linc Kesler: Do you remember, when they, when they went away? |
| [8,48] Modesto Jimenez: Not exactly when they got picked up, but we were goods friends of 'em. We fished and hunted with them. And I remember one incident, when they were . . . we'd moved from here, different mills, in fourth grade, I had to move to Klamath Falls because of my dad's work situation. And I went to this little school in Klamath . . . first day of school I ran into Mary there, and she was a little Japanese girl, very pretty girl. Anyway, these two Caucasian boys started picking on her, during the war, calling her a "Jap" and squinty eyed and everything. So I, my first taste of prejudice, I guess you could call it, was I took up for the little Japanese girl Mary, so I got into a fight with these two boys. |
| [8,49] Linc Kesler: Oh boy. |
| [8,50] Modesto Jimenez: And the teacher came up, and guess who had to go stand in the corner of the building? They put me in the corner of the building, and then the two boys that caused the trouble they were standing there yelling at me, making fun of me, and I couldn't do anything about it. |
| [8,51] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,52] Modesto Jimenez: So that was my first taste of prejudice; that was in the fourth grade. |
| [8,53] Linc Kesler: Wow. |
| [8,54] Modesto Jimenez: And after that I, that's the last time I remember Mary. 'Cause after that I moved back to go to school Chiloquin. |
| [8,55] Linc Kesler: Well that's quite a story. |
| [8,56] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, but then I moved back to Klamath later and I lived in Klamath Falls, for, since '51 until now. And I didn't, myself, I didn't go through a lot of that prejudice. Later in life, when I first went back there I ran into a lot of prejudice. But then, after meeting people and growing up with people and just gradually, they accepted me, I guess. |
| [8,57] Linc Kesler: Right, when they got to know you. |
| [8,58] Modesto Jimenez: Once they got to know me, yeah. And that, pretty good lifestyle in Klamath, lots and lots of people in Klamath; not prejudice, but you, since the water situation, it's starting to come out again. It's always been prejudice against Indians. But I, myself I've never seen that much of it. |
| [8,59] Linc Kesler: But this water issue's bringing it back because there's something at stake again. |
| [8,60] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, and I, one big issue, I'd like to say is I don't think the Klamath County resident realizes what Termination did to everybody, and the tribe. And I think that's part of the prejudice, 'cause we got paid some money. |
| [8,61] Linc Kesler: Right, right, so they all figure you're rich. |
| [8,62] Modesto Jimenez: Right. |
| [8,63] Linc Kesler: Yeah, it's just like the casinos: every, because people know about Indian casinos, they assume everybody's just got all kinds of money. And it's, you know, it's not that many tribes that are really, making it with casinos. |
| [8,64] Modesto Jimenez: No, no, that's not a big economical business for us right now. We're working at it. |
| [8,65] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,66] Modesto Jimenez: With not having a land base, or anything, we had a tough time. |
| [8,67] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,68] Modesto Jimenez: . . . getting a loan on the casino, but we finally got the loan. Once we get that paid off we're going to start making money for the tribes. |
| [8,69] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,70] Modesto Jimenez: And most of our money . . . misconception is the money's going to go to individual tribal members, but we got a plan set up where it's going to go into education, health, dental, economic development. We want to build our reservation back into what we were at one time. |
| [8,71] Linc Kesler: Yeah. Well do you think it be good to move and check out some of these other locations? |
| [8,72] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, I do. Yeah, I'd like to show you some of the rest of the property we have up here, and meet with some of the other tribal members. |
| [8,73] Linc Kesler: Ok well let's go. [break] So this the old Shaker Church here. Well, can you tell us about this building a little bit? |
| [8,74] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, this building here is the Old Klamath Tribe Shaker Church. That was, as far back as I can remember has been here, since '45 we used to come to have meetings here. And lot of the tribal members, came to practice their religion here. And as you know, the Shaker Church came from back East, originated back East and came out to our country. We were primarily a Methodist community, and then the Shaker Church came back in and we had a lot of tribal members, that did their religious ceremonies here. And like I said, I was here in 1945, and we used to have the church here, we used to have a dining hall over here that they had. And we, a family came here Saturdays and Sundays; they practiced their religion for eight, nine hours a day. We ate here, night times they went. And it was very interesting, for me, religious ceremonies we had here. And one time, this was a beautiful area we have, it was out here all by itself. We didn't have all the traffic noise here. And I was a kid when were here, but the kids would go in and sit. |
| [8,75] Linc Kesler: Earlier we were, we had stopped at the Shaker Church, and you were telling me a little bit about your recollections about that, but it was so noisy there that, couldn't really, couldn't really hear what you were saying so much, so. You used to go there when you were a kid? |
| [8,76] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, it was way back in '45, '46 there was a Shaker Church and as you know it came from back East, and we were mainly Methodist at the time. My mother and aunt and grandma got interested in the Shaker Church, so they used to take us there and usually it lasted the full weekend. There services Saturday and Sunday and that was all day and most of the night. And it was just religious and religion they had at the time, that they believed in, and we spent a lot of time there. There was a lot of other tribal members, I bet you there was, oh forty to fifty in that little church, you seen back there. And it was a, I don't know how to explain that, religion: they sort of spoke in tongues and they worked over people, sort of driving the spirits out. And they had all sets of, all kinds of bells and big bells, little bells, that was part of the ceremony. They would ring these bells, to get the evil spirits out of you and the good spirits back into you. It was really interesting, it sort of scared me at first when I first went there as a young fellow. But I got used to that, and I, it was very, very interesting, watch, just watching them do the ceremonies. And I said, we used to spend a lot of time there, we had a little dining hall next door that seated forty, fifty people. We'd eat lunch there or stay for services and eat dinner and then stay until, oh twelve, one-o-clock in the morning. |
| [8,77] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,78] Modesto Jimenez: And we'd go home, then go back the next morning, Sunday. But it was really, I guess you, awesome experience, remembering back on there, 'cause I've been to quite a few churches in my life time, Methodist, Lutheran church. My wife belong to the Lutheran; I went to Catholic school for a year. And all the different religions I would, we used to live next to a Negro church. And I'd sit out there and listen to 'em, doing their singing, their singing and everything. But the Shaker Church would just experience it, I think you'd have to see it to get the experience out of it. |
| [8,79] Linc Kesler: Right, so that's one that really sticks with you from growing up? |
| [8,80] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, yes. And my mother and, the whole family, ten, eleven years we went to it, and then we moved to Klamath and sort of got out of it. |
| [8,81] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,82] Modesto Jimenez: But my mother and aunt always belonged to it. And when the church closed here, they, the Warm Springs Tribe, they came down, they took it over. And they had the deeds to the building and everything. And about six years ago, the Warm Springs came down and presented the deed to that building to the Klamath Tribes. |
| [8,83] Linc Kesler: Did they? |
| [8,84] Modesto Jimenez: Yes, the Klamath Tribes owned it again. It needs a lot of fixing up. If we can, when we can afford it, we'll fix it up again. |
| [8,85] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,86] Modesto Jimenez: Still people interested in that. Not too many elders in there right now in this day and age, but I think there's a lot of people that just really, really like to get back into that, 'cause there's so much that's been said about it. |
| [8,87] Linc Kesler: Right. Well, it seemed from what Morrie said that it really was something that had a big effect on him when he was young and then he's kind of returned to having a strong interest in it too. |
| [8,88] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, it's just an experience, well you have to see it to understand it. Like I said, it's not your usual church services and like you go in and sit in and sing . . . |
| [8,89] Linc Kesler: That's that. |
| [8,90] Modesto Jimenez: I don't know how to put it. |
| [8,91] Linc Kesler: Yeah. |
| [8,92] Modesto Jimenez: But it just, and they, Tribal members really, really believed in it hard. I think it was friendship and getting togetherness for the two days that, that everybody really enjoyed, more of a tribal family, I guess you could call it. |
| [8,93] Linc Kesler: So the social contact was the really important part of it. |
| [8,94] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, that's as much as I can say about that, because the good feeling. And if it did come back, I'd like go to services again. Brings back a lot of memories. |
| [8,95] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,96] Modesto Jimenez: I would sit up by the hours watching it. In fact, we'd sit up and watch it, we'd got so tired, the kids fall asleep. They had benches along the outside, or in the inside the building that's the only seating they had. They did the ceremony |
| [8,97] Linc Kesler: In the centre? |
| [8,98] Modesto Jimenez: In the centre. |
| [8,99] Linc Kesler: So you . . . |
| [8,100] Modesto Jimenez: We'd stay there until we'd fall asleep on the sidelines. There's quite a experience and I guess that's about all I can say about that now. |
| [8,101] Linc Kesler: Did that kind of feeling of really, you know, being part of a tightly knit community like that, was, is that something you look back to as a feature of your childhood? or just |
| [8,102] Modesto Jimenez: Yes I did. The tribes are a big family in a way, and we always, like, in living on a ranch, we always did everything together with the families; haying season we all got together and helped each other hay, as I said before, then they'd feed us all. We'd move from one ranch together. I just, I don't know, Shaker Church, it was just you had the same feeling, a big family get together. |
| [8,103] Linc Kesler: A lot of that must have changed for you because you moved into Klamath Falls at a certain point, but do you think, do you think that after Termination, did much of those, did that affect those traditions? Was it harder? |
| [8,104] Modesto Jimenez: Oh yes, definitely, because it, a lot of families had to move away because of, like I said, the job situations. And tribes, tribal members did get a bunch of money and they went and did their own thing. And it sort of broke up that family lifestyle that we always enjoyed. |
| [8,105] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,106] Modesto Jimenez: So, this is, I enjoy the families, holidays we used to have big, our family used to all get together, thirty five, forty, for holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving. Seems like, just to get together it was, always. Bring back the memories of when I was a child, going to the situation, I think Termination really took that away from us for a long time. |
| [8,107] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,108] Modesto Jimenez: And now we're starting to get it back together, starting to work together and do things together again. |
| [8,109] Linc Kesler: Right. Yeah, well, I was wondering if you felt like talking a little bit more about your move into Klamath Falls, 'cause Morrie's talked a little bit about what that was like for him, and you mentioning earlier, and it was on our way down from that lookout, that, you know, it was a real effort for you at first to fit in with the school, but that you were pretty successful making friends with people after awhile. |
| [8,110] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, like I said, I had a tough time at first, and I moved around to quite a few schools in Klamath too cause we moved. We went from, I think I attended four different schools from the fourth grade to seventh grade. And seventh and eighth grade I went to Freemont Junior High school, that's where things started settling down. For me, making a lot of friends and going to Klamath Union High school was really a change but I, I think I adjusted to the lifestyle. |
| [8,111] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,112] Modesto Jimenez: And it was easier for me 'cause I lived in Klamath, with non-tribal members for quite a few years. |
| [8,113] Linc Kesler: Must have required learning a whole new set of skills and how to get along in that world. |
| [8,114] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, it was, you had to adapt, I guess you could say, to your living environment and the different friends you made. And they weren't all non, wasn't all non-tribal, well there were non-tribal and there was Mexicans and there were Black Americans and everything, all different. One of my best friends was a German, German-Irish man, her mother, his mother was an Irishman from the old country, and she was second mother. So I got to enjoy meeting the other side, I guess you could say. |
| [8,115] Linc Kesler: You know, it's really an interesting feature of what you'd just said, and also a lot of things that Morrie said, that you can be in a situation in which, in a sort of general sense, you're encountering a lot difficulty or opposition from people for, you know one thing, the racism, or one thing or another, that in spite of that, you have a lot of, form a lot of relationships with all kinds of different kinds of people that are really positive, have a real positive role in your life. |
| [8,116] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, there's friendships I gained in Klamath Falls, and like I said, I played a lot of sports like my other brothers did, and that helped me to get along with other people. Teamwork, family, you know, you have that teamwork and family working together, are able to accomplish anything. So that camaraderie and teamwork, playing sports, that helped me an awful lot to get along with other people. And I was quite successful in sports. |
| [8,117] Linc Kesler: When you're, when you moved into town, your, your mom and the rest of the, a lot of the family stayed on the reservation? |
| [8,118] Modesto Jimenez: No. |
| [8,119] Linc Kesler: You moved in all together. |
| [8,120] Modesto Jimenez: We all moved in together. |
| [8,121] Linc Kesler: Ok. |
| [8,122] Modesto Jimenez: Morris and my dad moved in first, and he started schooling first, 'cause my dad worked, saving up to get a home, then I moved in, while like I said, the fourth grade. |
| [8,123] Linc Kesler: Right, ok. |
| [8,124] Modesto Jimenez: Then we just |
| [8,125] Linc Kesler: So you had the whole family there at that point? |
| [8,126] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, we had the whole family there together, and there was three brothers at the time, two sisters and, well, mom and pop first moved into town. And another brother came along later. |
| [8,127] Linc Kesler: And what was your, what was the neighborhood like where you lived? |
| [8,128] Modesto Jimenez: When we first moved in, it was in the Pelican City area, which is on this side of Klamath. And we rented a old home there, and it was in the lumber industry section, an old grocery store, lot of Italians living in that area. And we had a great time there. Then we moved downtown, right downtown and we just, it was just a small place, but that's when I went to Freemont School. And I met a lot of friends, we had lights and athletics again. There was six grade schools in the Klamath area and we played sports against each one of them. |
| [8,129] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,130] Modesto Jimenez: And developed friendship with everybody on the other teams. We went from school to school playing, which . . . made a lot of friends. |
| [8,131] Linc Kesler: Yeah. |
| [8,132] Modesto Jimenez: Then I moved onto the other side of town, and went to the school out at the airbase, and then to Altamont Junior High. Like I said, when I was, we moved out there, we bought our home out there, first home out there on Howard Street. And I enjoyed the Altamont Junior High School, but I enjoyed the people at Freemont School where I went two years. So I'd walk from Linda Street up to Freemont School every morning go to school there. And so I lived in the Altamond district, competed from the Freemont District, the people I lived next too. Made a lot of friends from both districts, but I just, like I said, my parents wanted me to go to Altamont and I said, well I got all my friends, so they allowed me to go to Freemont, I had to walk about three miles, three and half miles to go to school. |
| [8,133] Linc Kesler: Wow, you must have wanted it. |
| [8,134] Modesto Jimenez: I enjoyed it. And it had nothing to do with this great big beautiful blonde girl neither. But then I went to KU and I still lived out there in the same district. I just, like I said, just adapted to the lifestyle. One thing I would say, I kept all my friends at Chiloquin though, the kids I knew in Chiloquin. |
| [8,135] Linc Kesler: So you made it back. |
| [8,136] Modesto Jimenez: Maintained the friendship. My grandma and aunty and all of them lived right there in Chiloquin and we came to visit them on weekends. So I could go out and visit my tribal member friends. |
| [8,137] Linc Kesler: And, you know, Morrie has said that he had Aunt Helen and it was a pretty big influence for him. Which, did she have that role for you too? |
| [8,138] Modesto Jimenez: Not as much as Morris: very respectful lady, very smart. Gave me a lot of advice, good advice, but like I said, my mother was the same way. So between my mother and father and Aunty Helen and Grandma we had a pretty good upbringing. And they didn't spare the rod neither: we got in trouble we heard from all three of them. |
| [8,139] Linc Kesler: They gang up on you? |
| [8,140] Modesto Jimenez: If we got in trouble at school, and we'd got punished in school. We came home and we told our parents about it, we got punished again. 'Cause they told us to respect authority, and just respect the older person, the elders. And then the tribal members and anybody, law enforcement, we had to respect the law enforcement. And they give us some good values, living values, which I think we still stick to this day. We respect, we respect everybody. But we don't back away from anybody neither, another thing they taught us. So don't go looking for trouble, but don't back off when it comes to you. Which is very strong for me, and a lot of things that I did in the past. |
| [8,141] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [8,142] Modesto Jimenez: I guess you could say, we're sort of proud people, our family, we're proud. We'll all take a look out for somebody, after a certain point then we protect ourselves, protect our families. Nobody says anything against our family, anybody in our family; not only family, good friends of yours, if you see somebody, picking or doing something to somebody that you know, and you don't you don't think it's right, then you protect that person. So it's a very valuable lesson for me, or some . . . I see that need to be done, and really helped me in the long run. Help us all in the long run, so I just, just to value that, what our parents and Aunty and Grandma instilled in us. |
| [8,143] Linc Kesler: Well that seems like they, they gave you a lot to work with. |
| [8,144] Modesto Jimenez: Yeah, like I said, we respected them, very, very much. If they showed us the right way to go, then we respected them, said ok, then this is the way I'm going to live my life. So, I think we had a great family, togetherness, and I don't think there's anything I could say. |
| [8,145] Linc Kesler: Well, maybe I'll just take a break here, turn the tape off. |
|
Session 9 |
| [9,1] Ivan Jackson: I'm a member of the Klamath Tribes: the Klamath, the Yahooskin the band of the Snake Indians. What I'm here for today is to show very a unique culture, aculture that was here hundreds of years ago in the same spot right here. I'm building what they call a earth lodge; it'd be a winter, winter house for the Klamath and the Modocs. Right in this same area right here was a, a big gathering area for the fish; it was fish camps. So what I'm doing is reconstructing a earth lodge right in this same area where there was probably about a half a dozen earth lodges right in this same area. And what I'm actually, my main reason here today is protect and preserve the old ways, bring back what you call "live culture." I'm trying to get most of my people involved in it, whoever wants to be involved with it, to learn the old ways. We have such a fast world today that we have a hardly any time to do these projects anymore. So I figured if I got busy and got involved and helped my people by bringing this back like this, that maybe they can find some, some days, you know like on the weekend or whatnot to come out here and be involved in this. |
| [9,2] Linc Kesler: What would this lodge have been used for? |
| [9,3] Ivan Jackson: This was actually a, a winter house. This was to lodge two or three families, to make it through a real hard harsh winter. |
| [9,4] Linc Kesler: Ok. |
| [9,5] Ivan Jackson: And the reason why it was built this way, it's built about three feet in the ground, about six feet up above with the frame and rafters, and it was well insulated. The way these rafters were put on there we'd put tule mats on the, on this, the next layer, then on top the tule mats we'd put cedar bark. lay 'em diagonally, same way the poles were going and that would make the water run down off of the bark instead of going down into those mats. The mats was insulation, the cedar bark was way to waterproof it. |
| [9,6] Linc Kesler: Then later when you got snow on there, you got insulation from the snow, I bet. |
| [9,7] Ivan Jackson: Well actually, yes. but we weren't finished, then after we'd put the cedar bark on there. Then we'd put sod. we'd lay sod, all the way, start from the bottom and lay it all the way up to the top. and after we'd put the sod on, then we'd take this dirt that I've dug out to make the pit, and lay on the top the sod. and that made it heavy enough to compact and keep it real insulated. |
| [9,8] Linc Kesler: So that's why you need such a strong framework then. |
| [9,9] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, it'd have to be real heavy-duty framework to put all that weight on there. |
| [9,10] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [9,11] Ivan Jackson: And then I had, and then I have to build a ladder, which always faced towards where the sun come up, and that'll be on this far right here. and that's your entrance. You walked up into a ladder, and then another latter down inside, right next to the fire hole, the fire entrance. |
| [9,12] Linc Kesler: You said a minute ago, that you got another project that you're going to be working on this winter which is building a boat. You've got a log over here. |
| [9,13] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, we have yellow pine over here. It's just the right size, and it's got the bow in it. and it's twisted, it's gotta have the grain kinda twisted. And what I'll do, is I'll put it in the tribal paper, and whoever wants to be involved with it, just as soon as we get a blanket of snow here, I'll start that project. |
| [9,14] Linc Kesler: Why is the twist important in the log? |
| [9,15] Ivan Jackson: That keeps it from, actually, from checking and if it does get a crack, it won't most of the time your boats in the water, so it stops it. if it was straight, it would actually crack. |
| [9,16] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [9,17] Ivan Jackson: The twist in it, is actually keeps it tough. |
| [9,18] Linc Kesler: That's so interesting, 'cause most of the time, twists like that in timber makes it harder to split if you're going to . . . |
| [9,19] Ivan Jackson: Yeah you don't want twists in other projects, but this you do want it in your boat. |
| [9,20] Linc Kesler: Well there you go. |
| [9,21] Ivan Jackson: But that'll be all burnt. that'll be, we're going to do it with traditional elk horn wedges that we keep sharp with sharpening rocks and make mallets out of mountain mahogany and what we'll do is, we'll take poles the size of these rafters here, and get four or five men. We can just roll that over. I'll have a hit right in the centre of it, and we'll roll it upside down and block it up and then I'll start burning it. and once I get that fire going, that snow will help me control the, the fire. |
| [9,22] Linc Kesler: Ok, so that's . . . |
| [9,23] Ivan Jackson: That's why you want that snow around you. |
| [9,24] Linc Kesler: Ok. |
| [9,25] Ivan Jackson: And then after I get it to where I think it's, where we can start working on it, then we'll roll it back upright and take the tools and start chipping it out. We'll just keep doing that till we form the boat. It'll start getting lighter as we go. Soon as we get almost to the very end, we'll keep it upright again, and I'll build fires on both ends, and then we'll burn it to a "hog nose." That's what we call our, our boats, hog nose dug-outs. |
| [9,26] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [9,27] Ivan Jackson: So, that's how you do it. |
| [9,28] Linc Kesler: It sounds like a lot of hours. |
| [9,29] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, a lot of hours. all winter. |
| [9,30] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [9,31] Ivan Jackson: Hope to have it done by spring. but we have lots of projects. I also do tule boats and the regalia. I do twining: our whole culture was actually twined together with, all the materials around the lakes and the marshes and the rivers. so we're kind of like, lake people, river people. We lived off the, whatever we could find around the lakes and the rivers, we utilized. But getting back, what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying protect and preserve our, what I call our "old culture," before anybody else was involved with us. I'm doing that by coming in here and reconstructing everything I know. That's about it. |
| [9,32] Linc Kesler: Well thank you very much for telling us about it. we'll look forward to seeing the results of the canoe and this project too, as it moves along. |
| [9,33] Ivan Jackson: Thank you. |
| [9,34] Linc Kesler: Thanks. |
| [9,35] [break] Ivan Jackson: I don't know if you . . . The way you entered this house is, when I get it all put together and insulated and everything together, there'll be a ladder outside coming all the way up to here, and then another ladder will be coming down and be locked right here. I'll have it buried in the ground, and this is how you come down. And then the smoke hole, the fireplace will be right here, and that's what this is right here, is the smoke hole. and how keep the rain out, we'll have real fine twine tule mats that, one will go over the top of this fire hole and then another one will go over to the entrance. |
| [9,36] Linc Kesler: Uh huh. |
| [9,37] Ivan Jackson: And that'll keep all the bad weather out. |
| [9,38] Linc Kesler: Right, right, so they're kind of staggered a little bit? |
| [9,39] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, they'll be linked, they'll kind of toe up, in between these two poles here, and the rest of it. it'll be a five foot one here, five by five, and a four foot one here and you'll be able to control it with, with a forked stick, |
| [9,40] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [9,41] Ivan Jackson: Where you can move it from one side to the other. and then of course, here you'll have the ladder so you can go ahead and do that by hand. but those mats were twined so tight that our baskets actually hold water. So that's what you do up there, for, to keep the rain out, the bad weather. |
| [9,42] Linc Kesler: And there's still people around who know how to do that? Do the mats? You, yeah, well that's good, and you're teaching other people too, I'll bet. |
| [9,43] Ivan Jackson: There's elders that know how to do it. |
|
Session 10 |
| [10,1] Linc Kesler: It's October 19, 2002 and I'm here in Klamath, well actually in Chiloquin, what used to be, I think the centre of the Klamath Reservation before the Termination. And I'm here with Porky Jimenez, and Porky I was just wondering if we could start by maybe, you telling anything that comes to mind about what it was like being a kid growing up here in this place. |
| [10,2] Porky Jimenez: Oh it was fun, lot of horses around here and we lived in Modoc Point and used to come up here to Chiloquin on horseback, spend a day in Chiloquin on horse back with friends and then go on back home in the evening. And I grew up picking potatoes in the potato fields when I was, oh before I went to our grade school I think. And then from a teenagers, I worked in the hay fields bucking bails. And I used to live like that. |
| [10,3] Linc Kesler: Wow. You must have been pretty strong throwing those hay bails around all the time. |
| [10,4] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, I was known as a good worker all my life. Then I went into the Marine Corps in 1953, got out in '55 and then I started working at sawmills. And I worked in sawmills about 36 years. And then I finally, I worked in Chiloquin for 27 years and that was the last mill I worked in. and they, they sold out then I've just been going around from job to job until I retired in '54, I think it was. I'm retired now, just staying home help the wife. |
| [10,5] Linc Kesler: How do you like being retired? |
| [10,6] Porky Jimenez: Oh, I like it. Staying home and, not getting up so early. |
| [10,7] Linc Kesler: Yeah, right, right. |
| [10,8] Porky Jimenez: I had, my last job was at TVVS in Klamath Falls, I had to leave here by six and get there, down there by seven and every morning and winter time, and winter time it bad, the highways were bad. |
| [10,9] Linc Kesler: Oh, I bet. |
| [10,10] Porky Jimenez: But I worked 46 years and I finally retired. Enjoying myself now. |
| [10,11] Linc Kesler: Well good. |
| [10,12] Porky Jimenez: Let my wife do the work. |
| [10,13] Linc Kesler: Oh, is that right? |
| [10,14] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, she's an aide at the Grade School. |
| [10,15] Linc Kesler: So you've been living in this area, except for the time in the Marines, pretty much all your life then? |
| [10,16] Porky Jimenez: No, I lived in Klamath Falls for a few years. |
| [10,17] Linc Kesler: Oh right, ok. |
| [10,18] Porky Jimenez: But most of my life, I lived, I've always been around Chiloquin. And I stayed with my grandmother for a while when I was a teenager and my wife lived here all her life next door over here. |
| [10,19] Linc Kesler: Oh yeah? Yeah, when you were growing up, would, what do you remember about your grandmother? |
| [10,20] Porky Jimenez: My grandma? Well, my grandmother, we used to take her, she was, we used to take over to the lake and, she'd camp there for a week or two. She'd have her tent and all her water and food and stuff. And she'd have her canoe, her homemade canoe. And she'd go out in the lake, spend a week over there or two, picking up, picking wocus. and then she'd come, we'd bring her home when she was through and she'd prepare it for the winter. |
| [10,21] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [10,22] Porky Jimenez: And then, sometimes we'd get mullet, fish for sucker fish for, get a couple buckets, tubs full. And her and my mother be out there all day long, cleaning 'em and hanging 'em up to dry. And they'd dry. We lived on sucker fish dried, dried fried and boiled and baked. |
| [10,23] Linc Kesler: Every way. |
| [10,24] Porky Jimenez: Every way, yeah. |
| [10,25] Linc Kesler: When you, when you dry them, you just hang them up on racks? |
| [10,26] Porky Jimenez: Hang 'em up on racks, yeah, and sun dry. |
| [10,27] Linc Kesler: Yeah, so in the summer time, you must, it must stay nice and dry when it gets hot. |
| [10,28] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, they'd summer, summertime, they'd put 'em in a gunnysack and hang 'em on a tree or something. But then we used to ride horses, we would go out to the gunny sack and grab one, stick it in our shirt and take off on horse back, when we was hungry and wanted a snack we'd just drag, drag it out and jerk pieces off. |
| [10,29] Linc Kesler: Yeah, so good portable food? |
| [10,30] Porky Jimenez: Just like candy. |
| [10,31] Linc Kesler: So when you were riding around as kid, were there fences or was it all open? |
| [10,32] Porky Jimenez: No, it was all mostly open. I remember there was, did you sho him where ranch was at? Well, we'll show you where the ranch is at, that big trailer house sitting up on the hillside, there was an old man up there and his wife, and they were just like grandparents to us. We was always up there and, always up there. We'd darn there grew up there on their ranch, hay, haying, they had a big ol'hay slide, (?) of hay up there and build hay stacks, build hay stacks. And we was having supper one time, and this old man Jim Johnson, he said, "one of these days when you boys grow up, all, all this land that you're riding around is going to be all fenced in, white man's going to say get it all, and just fence it all in," and that just what it is, all around Steiger Butte this way. All the, all that land's all fenced in. |
| [10,33] Linc Kesler: Yeah, when you were a kid, you could just ride. |
| [10,34] Porky Jimenez: Ride anywhere, yeah. And there was no houses, there was no houses over in these hills, it was all open, open land. But now there's homes over them hills over there. Along the lake, it's really changed. |
| [10,35] Linc Kesler: Yeah. When, did you used to go swimming in the lake? |
| [10,36] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, in the lake at the Lotches ranch, Williamson River, down by the Williamson River Resort and Williamson River here in Chiloquin and Sprague River. And then at the old mill site down here, there was man made dam going across, across the river, made out of logs and rock. And at the bottom of that dam the water was only a foot or two or so deep and the mullet used to just look like a pot of beans. We used to go on there and just throw 'em out, walk on there, walk in there and throw 'em out, get, fill our tubs, or gunny sacks and bring 'em home. |
| [10,37] Linc Kesler: Right, so there was just a whole lot of fish in there. |
| [10,38] Porky Jimenez: A whole lot of suckers just like, like a pot of beans, and then the ones that made up the river, they'd be at the dam, and it'd be the same way. They were just thick. |
| [10,39] Linc Kesler: When did that, you know, now, I think now the sucker's even on the endangered species list; there aren't so many of them left anymore. |
| [10,40] Porky Jimenez: No, not like it used to be, not when I was a little kid growing up. |
| [10,41] Linc Kesler: When did it start to change? |
| [10,42] Porky Jimenez: Oh I imagine back in early '50's I believe. |
| [10,43] Linc Kesler: And any idea what, what seemed to affect that? |
| [10,44] Porky Jimenez: No, I'm not sure but I, from what I heard Tulana Farm used to have a big shovel, and they'd fill their dump trucks up with the suckers from the river, the mouth of the river, and take 'em out and fertilize their fields. I'm not sure, it's just what I heard. |
| [10,45] Linc Kesler: So they were just, they were just harvesting too many of them, maybe? Let's see, you said you were in the Marines right around... |
| [10,46] Porky Jimenez: '53 I went in January '53 and got out about May of '55. |
| [10,47] Linc Kesler: Right. So that was right around the same time that all the Termination stuff was happening back here. Did it, when you came back, did, had it seemed like things had changed very much or was it pretty, pretty much the same as the way it was when you left? |
| [10,48] Porky Jimenez: I think it was pretty much the same; it wasn't that much of a change. |
| [10,49] Linc Kesler: Right, more of a change later on or . . . |
| [10,50] Porky Jimenez: Later on, yeah, 'cause the Agency was, we still had the Agency over here. |
| [10,51] Linc Kesler: Right. Morrie, when I've talked to him, he's talked a lot about your Aunt and he said that she was a real strong influence on him when he was growing up. Did you, do you remember much about her? |
| [10,52] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, she's, well he's, she was a Christian, she went to church all the time, and he used to go church with her too, and he had his own Bible and he knew, knew a lot about God. But she, she had lot of influence on him; he used to stay with her quite a bit too, and we used to go visit her every now and then, during the day, weeks. We all loved her. |
| [10,53] Linc Kesler: What about your mom and dad? What do you remember about them? |
| [10,54] Porky Jimenez: They were good people. My mother was a Christian too, darn near all our life and my dad he worked, all of our, well over 50 year, he worked fifty years in the saw mills and he taught us. He taught us to work. My brothers worked in the mill when they were in high school, worked their way through high school in the saw mills and he used, he taught us how to work and that's what, where I got my working experience 'cause people, I'd work for some people and they'd tell my folks, Porky's a good worker, he's gonna be just like his dad when he grows up. And every place I've worked, all my 'employers, supervisors always said, Porky's a good worker. Even now, I meet guys I used to work with, and they say you was a good worker. |
| [10,55] Linc Kesler: And you feel like you got that from your dad? |
| [10,56] Porky Jimenez: I got that from my dad, yes, 'cause he's worked all his life. And when we used to pick spuds when we was little, we were little kids growing up, he used to, him and my mom used to take us to the potato fields in Merrill and here Wolf Ranch, pick potatoes, and Tule Lake and he's be out there picking with all the rest of 'em, rest of the men and he had his belt on and us boys, we'd have buckets, and my mother'd order so many, sacks from the boss, so many sacks, and she's sit at the end of the row with the sacks and us boys get the bucket and fill them up, go down the row picking potatoes up and taking them back and she'd fill them up, and that's how we'd just worked like that. |
| [10,57] Linc Kesler: So you guys would all be running out there with your buckets? |
| [10,58] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, in the row, we'd have certain rows to pick potatoes in, we'd full our bucket, run back to my mother and 'empty our sacks there and.. |
| [10,59] Linc Kesler: And then she would be the one who'd tie up the sack when it was finished? |
| [10,60] Porky Jimenez: No, we just, got 'em half full and just left them there, and the that's how they'd pay you by how many sacks you ordered, you'd tell the boss how many sacks you wanted, and they'd give you so many sacks, I think it was nine or ten cents a sack, half a sack, they paid you back then. |
| [10,61] Linc Kesler: So was that pretty hard work? |
| [10,62] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, it was, it was hard, running picking buckets up full of potatoes, bending over. |
| [10,63] Linc Kesler: Right, right. |
| [10,64] Porky Jimenez: It was a good life, we learned, we learned to work. |
| [10,65] Linc Kesler: And it's such a, the potato area was down by the lake was it? Or... |
| [10,66] Porky Jimenez: Right down there, Williams River Resort, Williams River store, just down, down the road there's Wolf, used to be the Wolf Ranch. And . . . |
| [10,67] Linc Kesler: So you're down there with the lake on one side and the hills on the other side, in that field of potatoes . . . |
| [10,68] Porky Jimenez: No, just past the store on the highway, going, on the highway. It's on the left side, there's a old Wolf Ranch, back then, back in the '40's when we was picking, late '30's and '40's there was just that one place that I know of, Wolf Ranch. But like I say, we worked in potato fields, hay fields growing up. |
| [10,69] Linc Kesler: Right, and did you go to the, the school here in Chiloquin, or . . |
| [10,70] Porky Jimenez: I went to school here in Chiloquin till fourth grade, then Klamath Falls, and high school I went to Chemawa Indian School in Salem. |
| [10,71] Linc Kesler: Oh did you? What was it like being in the grade school here, what are your memories of the school? |
| [10,72] Porky Jimenez: It was just, school, just school. |
| [10,73] Linc Kesler: Nothing special? |
| [10,74] Porky Jimenez: No. |
| [10,75] Linc Kesler: Was it a big change when you went to Klamath Falls? |
| [10,76] Porky Jimenez: No, it was the same, just kids. Kids getting together. Nothing different. |
| [10,77] Linc Kesler: What about Chemawa? |
| [10,78] Porky Jimenez: Chemawa, that was good, that's where I met my wife, up there. |
| [10,79] Linc Kesler: Oh is that right? |
| [10,80] Porky Jimenez: I've know her, we've know each other most of our lives, but we didn't get acquainted. Me and her brother was friends up there, then when she came the next year, we got acquainted then. Got together after that. |
| [10,81] Linc Kesler: Oh ok, any particular memories about Chemawa? |
| [10,82] Porky Jimenez: Just football and sports and going to Salem every other week, every other weekend. |
| [10,83] Linc Kesler: Right, right, so you were another one in the family, sounds like a lot of you in the family were pretty good athletes, played sports. |
| [10,84] Porky Jimenez: Well, yeah, we all played sports; I'm not, I don't know how true it is, but my, I was a good runner in, with football, and I don't know how true this is, but my brother-in-law told me when I left, I went back up there to Salem to visit him when I was back on leave, and they said I was picked to go play in . . . was it Marian County All-stars? He said I was picked. But I don't really know for sure. He said, 'cause another friend of ours, he was picked to go, Joe Coburn, he played in the All Star, but they said I was, but a lot of guys, one time, there was bunch of schools, they brought their ball players to watch me run, sometimes I would run the whole length of the football field without being, being hit; well, I'd get hit, but couldn't get knocked down. |
| [10,85] Linc Kesler: So you're pretty good at weaving, through the crowd? |
| [10,86] Porky Jimenez: That was, that was strategy, weaving. Like I say, I don't know for true or not, but just what my brother in law told me. |
| [10,87] Linc Kesler: What was it like when you went to the Marines? Was that much of, I mean it must have been some kind of change, 'cause you were in the Military. |
| [10,88] Porky Jimenez: Well, a lot of Military training, but one thing, one thing my mother, my grandmother and my aunt prayed for me, 'cause when I went, when I went in, when I got out of boot camp, I signed up to go to Korea. I went to Korea in October but they signed the armistice in July, so I missed the battle. I missed the fighting, no fighting. And then I come home. Well when I was in Korea, the French Foreign Legion was fighting Vietnam, and I come back from Korea. And I come home, and I went back, I come back for a leave, third day leave, and I went to China Lake California and I got discharged from there. And right after I got discharged, that's when they sending, the US over to Vietnam. So I missed out Korea, battle in Korea, and but I claim it was for prayer from my mother, grandmother and aunt, probably thousands of other young men that went over, that they didn't, they missed same time I did, 'cause I think there was little over three thousand of us went over on a ship, when I went over. |
| [10,89] Linc Kesler: Yeah, all those who were, both Korea and Vietnam were pretty, pretty tough wars. |
| [10,90] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, from what I hear. |
| [10,91] Linc Kesler: I think that they wanted you back here; that's good that you made it. |
| [10,92] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, but then, but since then, I got out and I just went, went to work, got married and went to work. And just been working since. I raised, I had five daughters, they're all forty years old, in their forties now. I got six grand kids and two, two great grand kids. And my kids, my daughters, my grandchildren they've all got good lives, they're all working and they've, none of them have been trouble with the law. |
| [10,93] Linc Kesler: Well that's great. When you, did you, when you got out of the Marines did you come directly back to Chiloquin then? Or did you . . . |
| [10,94] Porky Jimenez: Yes, yeah I was in love, so I came back. |
| [10,95] Linc Kesler: Oh so that's it. That's what did it? And, when you came back, when you came back then it sounded like it was at the time when you started working in the mills? |
| [10,96] Porky Jimenez: Well, about a year after. I got out in May, then September we got married, then that following winter, through the winter, then that following spring my dad got me a job at, where he worked, at Linx Lumber Company. |
| [10,97] Linc Kesler: Right. And did . . . What was it like working in the mills? Did it change? |
| [10,98] Porky Jimenez: Well, that was good. That was good, I enjoyed, I enjoy handling lumber. I like green, handling green lumber, dry lumber and I enjoyed it. I made a good living at it. Raised my family. |
| [10,99] Linc Kesler: Right, so when, when you first starting working in the mills, they must have been working with some pretty big logs at that time. |
| [10,100] Porky Jimenez: Oh yeah, big logs. Sometimes there was two or three logs to a, to a truckload. I think couple times, there was, I seen one log to a truck and now, now you see 'em coming by the highway, there's about thirty to a load. |
| [10,101] Linc Kesler: Yeah, that's really changed hasn't it? |
| [10,102] Porky Jimenez: Yeah they go by everyday, and there's just a whole mess of logs on the trucks. |
| [10,103] Linc Kesler: Was it mainly ponderosa pines that you work on? |
| [10,104] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, all ponderosa. Once and awhile sugar pine or white fir, but mostly pine. I know when I worked in Chiloquin, down here for one summer, we would, working twelve hours a day 'cause they were selling lumber to, that pine, to Japan. And we, we'd put out a lot of pine there for Japan. |
| [10,105] Linc Kesler: And did they, did they cut it up into boards or did they . . |
| [10,106] Porky Jimenez: They made lumber, into lumber, surfaced lumber, finished lumber. Come from the sawmill into the plainer, and we'd get it all ready for boxcars and truckloads. |
| [10,107] Linc Kesler: This is kind of a picky question, but I'm curious, what kind of saws did they use in that mill? Were they circular saws, or big band saws? |
| [10,108] Porky Jimenez: Band saws and gang saws. |
| [10,109] Linc Kesler: Oh ok, the gang reciprocating saw. |
| [10,110] Porky Jimenez: Cut twelve boards, at a, they'd, one saw would make 'em, cut the edges of 'em make 'em square, then you'd run 'em through the gang saw and it'd cut 'em into maybe twelve pieces of lumber. |
| [10,111] Linc Kesler: Wow, that must have been pretty impressive to watch. |
| [10,112] Porky Jimenez: They were. And then for, at, toward the end here in Chiloquin, they put me on automatic stacker and I just, when that lumber come out, I just push buttons and drop them lumber down into different slots and they'd go down, down then hit it. Wherever you hit that button, it'd go, there was an arm that'd come out and knock that lumber off it. There was stackers that would stack 'em. |
| [10,113] Linc Kesler: Oh ok, and that was grading purposes mainly? |
| [10,114] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, there was a grader up ahead of me, he'd grade it and I'd see the grade mark and I'd know where to send it. |
| [10,115] Linc Kesler: Ok, so they, then they must, in that kind of a operation, they must run a lot of logs through that mill on a . . . |
| [10,116] Porky Jimenez: Oh they did, over a hundred thousand feet. |
| [10,117] Linc Kesler: And is that mill still operating or? |
| [10,118] Porky Jimenez: No, it shut down, they closed down. I worked there twenty-seven years, and then they went bankrupt or something and they just torn the, whole thing is gone now. They just tore everything out. |
| [10,119] Linc Kesler: Right, what, what happened to most of the people that were working in the mill, did they stay in the area? Or did they, a lot of them leave? |
| [10,120] Porky Jimenez: There was a few, a few stayed here, found different jobs. But most of 'em, most of 'em were from Klamath Falls anyway, they just went someplace else. Some were farmers and they went to farming. |
| [10,121] Linc Kesler: Do you, I'm thinking back to when you were a little kid, you know actually, one of the things Morrie's told me is that you guys used to wrestle and all that kind of stuff a lot. Did you, do all your brothers . . . |
| [10,122] Porky Jimenez: We used to wrestle and fight and cry and just like brothers. |
| [10,123] Linc Kesler: Right, just kind of roaming around the neighborhood in a little ball of dust, probably. With each other. |
| [10,124] Porky Jimenez: Got our, got our beatings from our parents for fighting. |
| [10,125] Linc Kesler: Did it work, did you stop? |
| [10,126] Porky Jimenez: For a while, till next day. |
| [10,127] Linc Kesler: Anything else you remember in particular about that time when you were a child? |
| [10,128] Porky Jimenez: Not really, I don't think. Just I, I've always loved living in Chiloquin. I've always loved Chiloquin, even when we were living in Klamath Falls. |
| [10,129] Linc Kesler: Ok. What was it about Chiloquin that you liked so much? |
| [10,130] Porky Jimenez: I just, just being around Indian friends, and then in, when we lived in Klamath Falls I was twelve years old, I started fighting professional. I was twelve. Then my brother, my older brother, half brother, he was a professional fighter and he got me started, 'cause I, we started fighting here in grade school, in school smokers. Our school here in Chiloquin, had a boxing team. And we'd, I started boxing then, and then just going on. Then I got high school, through grade school and my freshman, no, I was twelve years old, so I was about twelve then fight promoter, Klamath falls, he needed, he wanted me to go to Medford and fight. So I went over there and fought that's when I started out professional, started getting paid for it. |
| [10,131] Linc Kesler: So was like, were there big crowds for those fights? |
| [10,132] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, good crowds at the Klamath Armory down here, boy that was good. That was packed every, I think boxing was on Tuesday night, then they had professional wrestling on Thursday, Wednesday or Thursday, and they were always packed. Then every once in awhile they had professional western bands used to come. Baldy Evans used to bring 'em, western bands in from Nashville, I guess. And they, they were, they were always full too. |
| [10,133] Linc Kesler: Yeah, I imagine that was some good music. |
| [10,134] Porky Jimenez: Music, good western music, yeah. From famous western stars: Hank Thompson, Lefty Frizell. Hank Snow. |
| [10,135] Linc Kesler: In, when you were fighting how many rounds did you go? |
| [10,136] Porky Jimenez: Three, I started three rounds, but then when I started fighting pro, it went four. And then I think, once or twice I had six rounders. |
| [10,137] Linc Kesler: And they, most of those fights must have done, been decided on points I would think. |
| [10,138] Porky Jimenez: Yeah. |
| [10,139] Linc Kesler: That must have been pretty exciting. |
| [10,140] Porky Jimenez: They would judge us, judge would pick a winner. |
| [10,141] Linc Kesler: And how long did you do that, how many years? |
| [10,142] Porky Jimenez: Oh, till I was about twenty-one, or twenty-two. Twenty-two, I think. |
| [10,143] Linc Kesler: That was, that was well before you were married, right? |
| [10,144] Porky Jimenez: No, I was married then. |
| [10,145] Linc Kesler: You were married then? Oh, ok. |
| [10,146] Porky Jimenez: My wife was packing her first baby when we, went to Medford. |
| [10,147] Linc Kesler: Oh ok, did she, did she used to come, maybe she'll tell us herself, but did she used to come to the, to watch you fight? |
| [10,148] Porky Jimenez: Oh yeah, she was there all the time. We've always been together. |
| [10,149] Linc Kesler: That's nice. |
| [10,150] Porky Jimenez: Oh then I "rodeoed" for thirty, thirty some years. |
| [10,151] Linc Kesler: That long? |
| [10,152] Porky Jimenez: Thirty-seven years, yeah. |
| [10,153] Linc Kesler: Wow, then do all the parts of your body still work? |
| [10,154] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, it bothers me sometimes. |
| [10,155] Linc Kesler: Yeah, that's, that's rough stuff, that rodeo, I mean boxing's no joke, but I think that horses can be pretty tough on you too. |
| [10,156] Porky Jimenez: But I, but I praise, I praise God, 'cause he, a lot of times I should've broke my neck or my leg, couple times it felt like I did break my neck. But I, thank God, he got me, got me through it. I just wake up sore, once I got, hurt and my wife had to drive me to work down here in Chiloquin and help me out of the car. And I started pulling, pulling green chain and after I worked awhile I'd loosen up and I could the rest of the day. It just took, she had to help me out of the car and I'd make it up the chain, start pull working. But God got me through everything. |
| [10,157] Linc Kesler: That's pretty good though, doing something like that and going to work. You must have been pretty tough. |
| [10,158] Porky Jimenez: But I give all the credit to God. We're Christian me and my wife; we go to church all the time. |
| [10,159] Linc Kesler: And has, you're faith been pretty important to you all your life? |
| [10,160] Porky Jimenez: Oh yes, yeah, it's, I ask God to help for, help me to retire and they wanted to change my hours down at work. They wanted me to work every Saturday 'cause, they quit paying overtime and I, I said "I'll think about it." They said, "well you think about it and let us know. We'll find somebody else." So I went out got my time card punched, handed it in, and I went outside and my wife just drove up just then, and she said, "Porky," said "your dad said you're going to have to quit, they raised the price, the gas price again." 'Cause they, we was paying about $400 a month on gassing up. Paying $400 a month on gas, and now that $400 is in our pocket. |
| [10,161] Linc Kesler: Yeah, that makes a big difference, doesn't it? That's a lot of money. |
| [10,162] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, plus my social security, so that helps us. And her pay, her paychecks. So we're making out. [looks to Mrs. Jimenez] Can you think of anything else? Oh yeah, when I got out of service, I was, we used to go hunting and we could go out here any road and, and get any size buck we wanted. And now, now, now you, now you can't. You go out there you gotta drive all night and not see nothing. |
| [10,163] Linc Kesler: Right. Well how come? |
| [10,164] Porky Jimenez: Too many, too many hunters, poachers and . . . |
| [10,165] Linc Kesler: Oh, ok, so it's just that too many people. |
| [10,166] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, too many people. But I've had a good life. In our, how many, forty-seven years we've been married. |
| [10,167] Linc Kesler: Wow, forty-seven years! So you're coming up on the big golden anniversary before long. Yeah, you think you'll have a little celebration when you get to that? |
| [10,168] Mrs. Jimenez: Yeah. We have our kids, they gather with us all the time. |
| [10,169] Linc Kesler: Oh that's great. |
| [10,170] Porky Jimenez: Our kids always come, come down. Have a celebration together. |
| [10,171] Linc Kesler: Do a lot of them live nearby? |
| [10,172] Porky Jimenez: Well, we've got one in Washington, and two in Warm Springs and two here. One Klamath and one lives at home. |
| [10,173] Linc Kesler: Oh, ok. You said that, you know thinking about your anniversary coming up, that you met when you were at Chemawa. Yeah, and I'm just, anything else you remember about going to Chemawa? How did you feel when you went there the first time, it must have seemed pretty far from home. |
| [10,174] Porky Jimenez: Oh, no, I didn't mind it, I've always, I've always heard Chemawa and all these other Indian schools in Nevada and Riverside California; I've always heard and I always wanted to go to one. But I never did until I got, went to Chemawa, started at Chemawa. |
| [10,175] Linc Kesler: So that was something, you'd, you'd sort of wanted to do, for sometime. |
| [10,176] Porky Jimenez: I've always heard there was Indian schools and I wanted to go. And I had two cousins that went to Haskell in Haskell in Kansas. |
| [10,177] Linc Kesler: Yeah my mom went to Haskell and I know that, Lynn's son went there too. I think it's changed quite a bit. But yeah. |
| [10,178] Porky Jimenez: But I had fun up there. Made the basketball team when I first got up there, and then we came home, finished up that year. Then next year I went up, played football. I got the, made the football team. I've always made the team whenever, wherever I went. Boxing, I was popular in boxing. But like I said, I've had a good interesting life, and enjoyed it, and enjoyed being a grandpa now. |
| [10,179] Linc Kesler: Yeah, so how many grandchildren is there? |
| [10,180] Porky Jimenez: Six grand kids, three boys and three girls. And a boy and girl and a great grand kids. |
| [10,181] Linc Kesler: Incredible. It must be a real joy to see them. [to Mrs. Jimenez] So I'm wondering is there anything that you'd like to add, do you, you're voice I think is, will be picked up by the microphone, we don't have to turn the camera. |
| [10,182] Mrs Jimenez: Well I was thinking back the deer you know, when we, when we'd even ride to Klamath Falls we'd see deer, you know. Off the side of the road, right at the Sprague River, there was deer everywhere. And, you'd go out now and you don't see deer and it's very sad. And cause so many greedy people just, just destroyed them. Oh and another too, about the mullet, you know, we'd go down cross the river, down there and what we'd be doing down there, yanking them up? |
| [10,183] Porky Jimenez: Oh that was the mullet, between, between Hazelsteen Park and Modoc Point. That was a, that was back in the late 40's and 50's. Fisherman, the white fisherman, they'd be set along the banks there and they'd have stacks of, stacks of mullet, suckers, three and four feet high, and they'd just pile 'em up and leave 'em. They get, they didn't . . . |
| [10,184] Linc Kesler: They leave them? |
| [10,185] Porky Jimenez: They just, they just catch 'em and pull 'em up and just leave 'em in piles. And I think a lot of, a lot of people remember that, could tell you if you ask Indians if they seen that, or even white people you could probably ask that they, if they could remember that. |
| [10,186] Linc Kesler: So they were just into the sport? |
| [10,187] Porky Jimenez: Just for sport yeah, they'd just pull 'em out and stack 'em up and leave them, leave them there. |
| [10,188] Linc Kesler: Wow, that's always amazing what people will do, you know? It's, that's incredible. |
| [10,189] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, cause we used to come back from Falls when we were young, and we'd see all them fisherman along the banks, along the banks they were big ol' piles of fish there. And that today, the fish would still be there. |
| [10,190] Mrs Jimenez: Yeah, what about when you used to can them? With James, you guys would go out to the Marsh. Didn't you? Weren't you on the cattle run with James up in the marsh? |
| [10,191] Porky Jimenez: No that, that was before my time. But going back to the cattle days, there was a old fellow that used to be like my grandfather. He'd have, he had a big ranch on Modoc Point, and he'd heard cattle from Modoc Point clear up to the Klamath Marsh and he had buckaroos around his, at his place all the time, young Indian boys that wanted to be cowboys. He'd take 'em in and they'd stay with him all summer and he'd feed 'em and pay 'em and but they'd, he had hundreds of cattle and horses, just, he was just a big rancher down there. And then around here, down here, there used to be, they used to have a stock yard down there at the corral and the ranchers from Fort Klamath and all around this area, Fort Klamath and up Highway 97, they'd bring cattle herd through here, through Chiloquin, and take out through the stock yards and send 'em off to market. My wife, she was a little girl and her mother'd send her out there to keep them cattle, with her towel or something and chase them out of the yard, keep out the yard. |
| [10,192] Linc Kesler: Well, I imagine those herds coming through must have been pretty impressive sight. |
| [10,193] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, they were. |
| [10,194] Linc Kesler: Must have done a little bit of damage on the way through too, I would think. |
| [10,195] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, then one year, they were cross the track down here and a train got 'em. There was cattle all over up and down that track. |
| [10,196] Linc Kesler: Oh no, oh boy. Yup. Well that's those old trains had those cattle catchers on the front. I guess that those cattle drives, that all stopped of course when people put fences up. |
| [10,197] Porky Jimenez: Yeah, they got stock trucks now and they haul 'em off on stock trucks. Lot of them going through here too, everyday. |
| [10,198] Linc Kesler: Yeah, that's quite a busy highway, isn't it? [to Mrs. Jimenez] Are there other things that you're thinking about? |
| [10,199] Porky Jimenez: All I can think of, I'll probably think of something else tonight, laying in bed. I should have said that. |
| [10,200] Linc Kesler: Well if you think of . . . |
| [10,201] Mrs. Jimenez: Any more questions to ask him? |
| [10,202] Linc Kesler: Well I, you know, I think we've covered a lot of different times in your life and I'm seeing you've got a lot of pictures up here on the wall, some of them are family pictures and I think I recognize Chief Joseph over there. |
| [10,203] Porky Jimenez: That big one there is from my dad's funeral, my mother in middle then my brothers and sisters and one girl, the one girl at the end with the black pants on, my mother adopted her. |
| [10,204] Mrs. Jimenez: The other one is some of our grand kids and kids in that one with all the middle pictures. |
| [10,205] Porky Jimenez: Oh yeah. That's my Aunt Helen here. She's a Christian. |
| [10,206] Linc Kesler: That's her right there, ok. So I've certainly heard a lot about her from Morrie. Well, is there anything else that you'd like to . . . |
| [10,207] Porky Jimenez: That's all my grand kids up there. |
| [10,208] Linc Kesler: Oh more grand kids over there. |
| [10,209] Porky Jimenez: That's all of 'em there. I got my oldest grandson, he's married now. |
| [10,210] Linc Kesler: Your oldest grandson is married, huh? Wow. |
| [10,211] Porky Jimenez: Twenty-seven, he'll be twenty-eight next month. |
| [10,212] Mrs. Jimenez: Yes I've lived in this area all my life, right here, in this area. Except we went to Klamath falls. |
| [10,213] Porky Jimenez: For five or six years. Five and half I think. |
| [10,214] Mrs Jimenez: Then we came back here, and my mom gave me this lot over here. And then we bought this lot here and we've been here all, all these years. |
| [10,215] Porky Jimenez; Thirty-two years. |
| [10,216] Mrs. Jimenez: Thirty-two years. Praise the Lord for . . . |
| [10,217] Linc Kesler: Well you must really like it. Yeah. Great. Well I really, I want to thank you for taking the time to . . . |
| [10,218] Porky Jimenez: Glad I could share something. |
| [10,219] Linc Kesler: Yeah, it's, it's really, I really appreciate it. And it was great to hear, hear your recollections. |
| [10,220] Porky Jimenez: Yeah and this is a good street we live on, 'cause there's nobody bothers us. There ain't no drunks, nobody riding through all the time. Once in a while a car go through, but not too much. |
| [10,221] Linc Kesler: Right, well that's a good quiet spot. |
| [10,222] Porky Jimenez: Before that road used to go clear around to the next street there and cars used to go through all the time, before they closed . . . somebody bought this place and fenced it off. |
| [10,223] Linc Kesler: Oh, ok. So that really helped things. |
| [10,224] Mrs. Jimenez: Dead end. |
| [10,225] Linc Kesler: Well, ok, thank you very much. |
|
Session 11 |
| [11,1] Linc Kesler: It's October 19, 2002 and I'm here at Chiloquin with Lynn Schonchin and I'm really happy with you talking pretty much about anything you'd to talk about, Lynn. A place, if you wanted to start might be, what things were like for you when you were growing up. What you remember about that time. |
| [11,2] Lynn Schonchin: A lot of stuff about that point in time, I grew up in the upper end of the reservation which is the Sprague River - Beatty area. My grandparents raised me and had a ranch just outside of Sprague River, and grew up there raising, granddad raised cattle and hay and those kinds of things, growing up and it was a whole community up there that worked together. I guess that one of things that stands out in my mind is that when it came time to hay, it wasn't just one family haying; it was all the families haying together and helping each other. And those kinds of things, same thing with branding cattle, there were great big gatherings, people get together and brand and eat and help one another out and stuff. Those are probably the kind of experiences and that, at that point in time, they really impacted me, you know, the idea of helping out all the time: help who you could ever help. And then, growing up on horse back at the ranch and doing those kinds of things and hunting and fishing and, whenever we could every summer when school was out. |
| [11,3] 'Course that time, during the reservation period, there was free grazing for tribal members, so we could turn the cattle out, turn the horses out and, and we'd go up north to a little place called Jackson Creek and camp and dry deer meat and fish and have little brook trout up there, little bitty ones, and we'd fish for brook trout and catch them, eat them up there, and we'd camp most of the summer up there drying meat. And that time that you get done drying meat, the wild grass hay on the Klamath marsh is ready to harvest and my granddad always had a permit from the Klamath agency and he'd take so much hay off that marsh and we'd go down there and camp on the marsh and hay. And, by the time we got the hay done and put up, it was kind of time to go home and get the cattle in and start school. And so you know, those were ideal summers for a kid, out running around camp and then hunting and fishing and doing all those kinds of things. You learn that stuff early, I know my mother gave me a rifle when I was 8 years old, I knew how to handle a rifle at that age, you know, and a fishing pole, and so it was kind of a different lifestyle than what you live today. The openness of the reservation when there weren't fences and houses and all that that's out there now. |
| [11,4] And you could just go and you know, ride the old road system and drive and drive and drive and never run into a gate or anything. It was just, you know, kind a of like a carefree time for a kid growing up, but I think in that amount of time also, my mother was with a gentleman by the name of Junior Shadley and his mother Flavey Yates (?) knew a lot of those old tribal legends and she'd tell them to us at camp. And, you know, of course my great-grandmother told us them, and grandparents and, sitting around the camp fire listening to those, and Carol and Junior singing and playing their guitar around the campfire at night and, but learning those kinds of things. And then, Junior had two good friends, they're still alive Pory Wright and Skip Moore and they hunted and fished together and that's how I learned how to fish, was from those guys. And we, I've always kind of joked with my sons that if you see Skip Moore on the river you know fish are running. You know, otherwise there's no sense in going down the river, because, you know I've always thought he was probably one of the best fisherman ever came out of this country. And hunter, and (?) the same way. |
| [11,5] But those guys also taught us a whole lot on their own: how to take care of deer, what, you know, you didn't waste anything. You didn't kill to just kill a deer; you kill for meat and subsistence only. And never wasted anything. It's all of those kinds of lessons were taught with that freedom of running around as a kid camping and everything. So I think those kinds of things, when I look back now, probably didn't think about it then, but when I look back now are pretty important teachings and learnings that I got from those guys and my grandparents and my great-grandma, 'cause I got to spend time around her. So that was kind of like growing up. |
| [11,6] 'Course riding the bus from Sprague River to Chiloquin school, that was trip in itself. We did that for, well I did that for nine years. And, and then that's when my family, that's when Termination happened and that's kind of when everything just flip-flopped and changed; everything, started changing anyway. We left the ranch, moved into Chiloquin, stayed in Chiloquin for about a year. And then my grandparents bought a tavern in, over apartment complex over on the Oregon Coast in Lincoln City, and we went over there and they were ran for about three years and built a good business out of it. And then they sold it and went to Canada. And I went to Canada with them. I was a senior in high school and when I got to Canada, they were going to put me back into my sophomore year and pick up Canadian required courses. And I had nothing to do with that and I came home. And stayed with my aunt over in Lincoln City for little while and then moved back here in Chiloquin. |
| [11,7] And, you know, then you felt that whole part of Termination. And nothing was here. The agency was gone, the, and like I said, my grandparents moved to Canada. I know one point in time, early in the 70's when were dealing with hunting and fishing rights here we thought that we had tribal members in every state of the union and four foreign countries: that's how it dispersed we had become after that Termination era. And, but anyway, I moved home and I knew my wife, we knew each other all the time when I was growing up here, and came home and we started dating and got married, and not too long after I got married, I was drafted in '66. And spent two years in the army and got out in '68 and came home and logged a little bit until, well . . . I love logging, I loved it, I set chokers and bumped knots and drove skid cat and had all of those kind of good things out in the woods and then decided, |
| [11,8] I always wanted to work with kids, so, and I think that came from my background. When we were growing up, my granddad had coached basketball teams and they coached us in baseball, we had little league before there was little league going on around here, and we had teams in Sprague River and we'd go and play in Beatty. They had a team up there, and then they got a team going on out here Klamath Agency. And then Fort Klamath got a team, it was kind of funny Chiloquin was the last town to have a team that we'd start playing. So I grew up doing those things and watching people volunteer and helping us do that and working with us kids and doing anything they could for us kids. I was pretty kid oriented, and so I think that's were some my wanting to work kids came from, the examples I had in my life. And so finally I went to school and graduated and was able to come back here and get a job. I, Chiloquin high school didn't recruit me, I recruited them. And came back here, I taught for 23 years and then retired from it, so but I think that all those kinds of things in my life prepared me, the folks teaching me, spending time with me, taking me off; I lived in a time period that I was in the right place at the right time. |
| [11,9] I got involved in tribal politics kind of young but the people, that there were to teach me. My mother-in-law Mrs. Jimenez, I call, that's my mom, she had a strong hand in teaching me, and people like Freedman Kirk and Joe Ball and Nathan Davis, and Aunt Helen, and that whole realm of elders that was alive then took me in their wing and taught me, and it was kind of like when we were a kid: they took us under wing and had baseball for us and basketball and all those kinds of things, and it was the same thing when I was younger in my life, they stepped in and taught me. And luckily enough, I listened, and I learned a whole lot about tribal history and our form of government and how to work within that and so those kinds of things, probably the most important things in my life. |
| [11,10] Linc Kesler: It's, it's really interesting to hear you just briefly describing that as you started talking and then coming back to it because I know you spent your professional life working as a classroom teacher and, in what we think of as the formal education system, with you know, class rooms and set hours and classes and so forth, but you're also talking about those people who were so influential to you in the summers and so forth as you were growing up and it sounds like they were teaching you all the time, all kinds of things, and that that was a really important influence on your thinking and on your approach to everything. |
| [11,11] Lynn Schonchin: It was, you know, the kinds of things that that informal process teaches you, you know, is basically life. You know, and I know when I say this, it's a generalized statement, but most of my education was theory. My formal education was theory. My informal education was life, and like I said, lucky enough I was around the right people, my grandparents. And at the at point in time, the people that I grew up around with prior to Termination they were the same in Beatty as they were in Sprague as they were in Chiloquin. Like I said everything was for kids. |
| [11,12] Linc Kesler: Right, so it was pretty consistent across, 'cause those were different communities, with different tribal histories, but they all shared that. |
| [11,13] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, they all shared the same value systems. And the only difference was location. They were up at that end and I used to tell a story about how, I was about oh, about ten years old and three of my buddies was chasing me down here in Chiloquin when it was my birthday and they were going to whip me. |
| [11,14] Linc Kesler: Your birthday present? |
| [11,15] Lynn Schonchin: They were going to give me a birthday spanking, and I was running away from them and we were playing, you know. I was running away from them and I came running out of an alley and turned the corner and I run smack into a gentleman by the name of Horace Summers. And Horace was one of the tribal elders. He was a cattleman famous for raising bucking horses and all of that, and I run smack into him and kind of boom went backwards, you know, and he looked down and said, "What's going on?" you know, and helping me get back up and I told him, "Those guys are going to spank me." And he thought, you know it was a serious, for real thing, and I said, "No it's my birthday." "Oh ok, well come on," and we went kind of in front of, there was a Golden Rule store, Norvel's Golden Rule: he sold dried goods. Horrie took me in there and bought me a shirt for my birthday. I'm not a member of his family or, but that's the way those folks were with us kids. And they spoiled us. But yet they taught us, and so like I said, I was in the right place at the right time and those folks really had an impact on my life. |
| [11,16] So, and, you know, they told us about how they grew up, they shared those things with us. And I think you go back, you spent time with Morris; he's probably told some of the same kind of things. We go back through the years of what those folks went through, the kind of lives that were, you know changed over the years; from the time the reservation was started to where we were now, and how many doors that they had to knock down to become a functioning member of mainstream society, they had to knock all of those doors down. And they did it. You know, they did it. And then each generation knocked another door down, kind of opened some more. We kind of laugh, my brother-in-law Morrie, he went to school in Southern Oregon College, and then knocked a few doors down. I went to school at Southern Oregon State College and hopefully I opened a couple of doors in my experience there. And my son graduated from Southern Oregon University; there was three of us in this household that graduated from the same school with different names. But, the whole thing of it was doors were knocked down for us, opened for us. And how lucky we are for that. And to think of the strength, character of those people before us, and what they had to do to knock those doors down and open them up so we could, you know, teach, so we could do those kinds of things. |
| [11,17] Linc Kesler: How did you, Morrie talks about his Aunt, Helen and his Mom both saying to him, you know, this is what we want you to do: we want to go get this education. You know, so forth and so on, how was it that you continued in your education? |
| [11,18] Lynn Schonchin: It's like I said, I always wanted to teach. |
| [11,19] Linc Kesler: Ok, so you had . . . |
| [11,20] Lynn Schonchin: I had an idea to work with kids, and through my wife and Aunt Helen and Mom and my family members and stuff I was really encouraged to go to school. And it's kind of funny we used to have Williamson River Church which is also known and as an Indian Mission Church. It was built by our people back in 1876, and my wife's family has a history that goes to the start of that church. Down here, and after church down there, they used to have potluck and all of those old folks were there, you know, and we'd come home sometimes on weekends from school and go to the church and I'd have to give a report on how well I was doing in school. But it was total encouragement, total support and you know, whatever they could do to help, anything. And that's the way they were. We see some things going on today and you talk about elders and there's a high degree of respect for elders, but when I was growing up and around those elders came time to eat somebody would say feed the elders. And they elders would say feed the kids first, feed the little ones first. They wanted to make sure the little ones were taken care of and they could wait. And that always amazed me, that here's their thought processes aren't on themselves, on the younger ones, making sure they're cared for first. And that's the way they took care of us. |
| [11,21] Linc Kesler: How did the, you know when you were describing these different communities and the way in which they all shared this kind of a concern, they were in different places but, but it sounds like they were very similar in a lot of respects and, what happened to those communities after the Termination process, when they're relationship to the, legal relation at least to the land base changed so much? |
| [11,22] Lynn Schonchin: In Sprague River here, for example, most of the Indians moved out of Sprague. |
| [11,23] Linc Kesler: Right, and they just dispersed? |
| [11,24] Lynn Schonchin: Well, Sprague today's (?) town still has people. There's still not a city sewer system in that town; it's not that developed yet, as far infrastructure et cetera, Beatty's the same way. People kind of left Beatty and moved away, moved into Klamath Falls, and so those communities kind of broke down. Everybody is moving away and our; it was much easier to move Klamath Falls and live than to live that far out. And the funny thing now, is we're starting to see the populations kind of move back. Kind of, more and more people are moving home that left. Since tribe's been restored and the kinds of programs that are helping, help build housing and education and those kinds of things, so more people are starting to move and those communities are starting to grow back a little bit. So I think you're going to see a revival of that community, probably. |
| [11,25] Linc Kesler: Ah, ok. |
| [11,26] Lynn Schonchin: I'm hoping for it anyway. |
| [11,27] Linc Kesler: Right. Yeah it seems like with the, when a community spreads out like that and it goes to different locations that maintaining that same kind of relationship between the generations and so forth would be pretty challenging and hard to do in a lot of areas. |
| [11,28] Lynn Schonchin: I think, maybe. But on the other hand, there's always stories left. And the families sharing those stories and stuff and so the real fabric for it is there. And just getting people back there and back together again and doing the kinds of things that they did and so I think the fabric's there. |
| [11,29] Linc Kesler: When you were describing being out in the summers and people telling some of the traditional stories around the camps so forth, how did you react to that as a kid? And what did you, what do you feel you took away from that experience? |
| [11,30] Lynn Schonchin: Right now, to be honest with you, surprised myself that I remembered, because kind of kids playing and don't have time to sit down and listen. And so, you know, I talked with other folks, and one of our general comments is that I wish they'd sit down and listen more and I wished they'd listened more. And so there's, there's real fragments of what I remember, but the ones that really impressed me, I guess, is the ones that I really remember. I think they stuck and, but, kind of like all kids, too busy being kids and allowed to be that, especially. |
| [11,31] Linc Kesler: Right, well it's an important job. |
| [11,32] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, and we were allowed to do that. We were, you know, encouraged to be kids. And so is some respects, we didn't sit and listen maybe when we should have. So, but there are good memories and those . . . |
| [11,33] Linc Kesler: I guess if that system had continued and you'd grown up in it when you got to be older, people would still telling those stories and you'd, you know, you'd have the opportunity, maybe if you, you know, when you got to "the should have sat and listened" point you could still do it, because somebody would still be doing . . . |
| [11,34] Lynn Schonchin: They'd still be repeating them. And I think that's one of the drastic things that happened in Termination, that my beliefs and, I think you talk to a lot of other folks, because of all of the social ills that came with Termination: we lost a whole generation. And that generation's my mother's generation. And that was the grandparents to be handing down to this generation, and so that's had an effect on us too. We were lucky we got to grow up with grandparents. And you know, grandma's and grandpa's were, they were ones that kind of spoiled you a little bit, while mom and dad weren't you know, and shared and taught you things and did things, not that your parents didn't, but grandparents did it in a different way. And we lost a whole generation to Termination, that died early when we look at demographics of the tribe today, our elder population is like 3%, where it probably should be like 14, 16, 18% somewhere in there. And so, we've, you know, that's one thing that hurt the tribe. |
| [11,35] Linc Kesler: And that had a lot to do with just the negative social effects, people moving out of the community and the strange surroundings or . . . |
| [11,36] Lynn Schonchin: Well that, and, you know, alcoholism became a problem at that point in time and those kinds of things and it took that whole generation. |
| [11,37] Linc Kesler: I think I remember hearing that there was a pretty marked increase in the suicide rate after Termination and so forth too. |
| [11,38] Lynn Schonchin: Well, you know a lot of things when you pick up a law from the federal government and read it and that says you know you are no longer an Indian, then "who am I?" Everybody thought $43,000 was a lot of money. You take $43,000 back then, it was. By the time you bought a home, got a car, furnished your home, it was time to go to work. There wasn't . . . |
| [11,39] Linc Kesler: No jobs. |
| [11,40] Lynn Schonchin: And so there wasn't that, and then there was some really heavy duty structural discrimination within the employment market and our people would apply for jobs, try to go to work and no, you're a rich Indian, you don't need a job. And we went through all of that, and, well, in fact in 1989, we did a needs assessment, comprehensive needs assessment of the tribe. It showed 45, 55, 65% unemployment rates, at that point in time. So think what it was back in '64, '65. I know in the school system when I walked in the Klamath County School District in 1976, 42% drop out rate of Indian kids. And through grass roots, all of those kinds of things, we've able to get that down to about 10% on an average here, and that's good. But at the same point in time we're still running, 40, 45, 50% unemployment. So, what, and then the kids got the education, but . . . |
| [11,41] Linc Kesler: Now what? |
| [11,42] Lynn Schonchin: Now, they still can't get jobs. And so, the outside community sees it as the tribe's responsibility for jobs. And you have the state employment office, put in for work and they say you're tribal, rather than try to help you find a job. So you, we've got all of those factors in here. And of course, we've only been restored since 1986. If we look at that, 16 years, kind of snot nosed teenager; we're still learning. We're still learning and getting processes in place and also the community is still learning as to what we're about. What we really have to offer and what we don't have to offer. And so it's a community education project that really has to be started, and the tribe go out, and this what we can and can't do. So, that's the good and the good thing is, it's an encouragement for our younger folks to go to school. And come back and work for the tribe. And so, you know, I think our job is to battle for those kinds of things again it'll open those doors again. |
| [11,43] Now we're in the processes of working on getting our land back. And that's going to happen, it's definitely going to happen. I know, I can feel that. And so when that comes back, then we, you know see how much we can revive of prior to 1960, when they took it. So. |
| [11,44] Linc Kesler: When you came back as a schoolteacher, what, what kind of challenges did you face in the school system? |
| [11,45] Lynn Schonchin: 1975, 76, a group of Indian parents here, contacted, at that point in time, federal government's health, education welfare office, HEW and had them come in and look at the school system here, in terms of discriminatory practices. HEW came in and leveled out a five part suit against the Klamath County School District for its treatment of Indian students. I graduated in 1977 from Southern Oregon. One of the issues that HEW left with School District you need to hire some Native American teachers. So I wasn't really, I wasn't really hired because they wanted to hire me as a teacher: I was the token Indian and to the point that when they hired me, they hired me to run the Federal Indian Education Program that the district had. I wasn't hard money district; I was the token Indian run the Federal Indian Program. But it was fun, I got, I came, we developed some courses in Indian history and Indian literature. We had some home school liaison programs in helping the kids with some counseling and stuff. And it was fun and it was grass roots, total community grass roots. |
| [11,46] Linc Kesler: Right, so you had some autonomy with that position. |
| [11,47] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, a parent committee was there, the parent committee made up of the Indian parents, we had some things going, opening up the gyms and playing ball and just we had some youth basketball leagues going. On Saturdays, sometime we go down and open the gym. We didn't have a drum group here and so took records down from other drum groups and go down and dance in the gym, and those kinds of things. Help each other make outfits to dance with. And so there was a whole lot going on and it was just a lot of fun. And like I said it was total grass roots community stuff. And I did that for 7 years. And then we'd seen the need to change the program, to go more of a home school liaison type of a program, full time, and luckily there was a social studies position open. And so they put me on, on hard money. I guess I'd proved myself, but it was really tough in the beginning because you're walking into a discriminatory lawsuit, and some tribal members were seen as a sell-out for going to work for that school district because of what they did. And a lot of the co-workers that I had in the building seen me as a spy for Indian community. |
| [11,48] And so, the first couple, three years it was kind of, you know, but after it got settled legally and everything, god, I wouldn't trade it for nothing, I just . . . There was no way they could get me out of that school, I loved those kids and what I was doing, I enjoyed myself, you know. I guess that's kind of a sin in today's society, to go to work and enjoy it, you know. But I really, teaching, coaching . . . |
| [11,49] Linc Kesler: I think that's what everybody would like to do, you know, but it's . . . |
| [11,50] Lynn Schonchin: Well when I quit, I'd already dealt with second generation. And was getting close to dealing with third generation and that was the neat thing because I knew what parent to call and who to talk to, and the kids knew I knew it. |
| [11,51] Linc Kesler: And the parents you knew you too, which I'm sure made a big difference. |
| [11,52] Lynn Schonchin: And that really helped. |
| [11,53] Linc Kesler: Sure. |
| [11,54] Lynn Schonchin: It was, it was, to me probably, it was a quality experience. |
| [11,55] Linc Kesler: You know, thinking about that kind of, how something like works is kind of interesting to me, because on one hand you've got the system that you described when you were growing up when you had a lot of people, you know, like the guy who bought you the shirt, you know, who was just there as part of the community and was there to have that positive interaction with you as a kid who just came around the corner, you know. But after Termination, because of what happened to the communities, that kind of structure may not have been there to the same degree. On the other hand, by sticking in that school for a long time and going through a couple of generations, in a sense you're, you know, even though it's more narrowly restricted, a couple of people maybe, you're still providing something. It's a different environment, structured a different way, but it's performing some of the same function of giving those kids kind of an anchor point where they can rely on having an encounter that's helpful instead of punitive or useless, you know. |
| [11,56] Lynn Schonchin: I was given some advice, by, you know when you walk into a room and it's a group of kids, that you want to try to impact every one of those kids. You want to try and help every one of those kids. And I was told by an older person that, you know, if you don't, how are you going to feel? And to be realistic, if you set a goal to touch one child a year, if you could make a little bit of difference in one child a year, you could be successful because, if you impacted that child, you've impacted a family. And so and I thought that was good advice, that if I could really, if I can help one kid somewhere along the line, then I could call it a successful school year. And because if I, you know, if I looked at it the other way, you know, trying to help all 108 that went through my room or 120 that went through my room, a day, you know . . . |
| [11,57] Linc Kesler: It's pretty overwhelming. |
| [11,58] Lynn Schonchin: It's overwhelming, but kids as far as I'm concerned in this community, that I worked with for, they were great kids. They taught me, how to teach. The kids taught, I think that any teacher will tell you that, the kids teach you how to teach. |
| [11,59] Linc Kesler: Well only the teacher's who are open enough to listen to the kids. The other ones just never learn. |
| [11,60] Lynn Schonchin: I learned as much from those kids as I hope they learned from me. It's a good experience in my life. |
| [11,61] Linc Kesler: Yeah well it sounds like, you know, going back to some of your early comments about the people who worked with you when you were a small kid, you had some pretty good models to work with. |
| [11,62] Lynn Schonchin: Definitely. |
| [11,63] Linc Kesler: The interaction between them as an adult and you as a child was such a, there was so much going on in that interaction that, and so positively, so that you know, you have, you had a lot to work with, and what they gave you, that you could pass on. |
| [11,64] Lynn Schonchin: And I think the other thing that was with me, at a point in time in my life, that when I started that professional career a lot of us folks were still here, really available, that I could turn to and ask for help and, you know and you knew they were there supporting you. Especially you know, that first couple for years was a little rough, but they were there and encouraging and supporting and always were. |
| [11,65] Linc Kesler: Yeah, you didn't feel isolated in your efforts that way. |
| [11,66] Lynn Schonchin: No. A good friend of mine that's passed away, made a comment to me one time, and he said you know, he said our elders never gave up on us no matter what we did. They never ever gave up on us. They were always there and that's probably one of the truest statements I ever heard. Didn't make any difference who you were in this community, or what was going on, they didn't give up on you. Always seen green pastures ahead for us, you know. And to have that kind of encouragement and support is, I think, you know, I wouldn't be where I'm at today without it. |
| [11,67] Linc Kesler: We, one of things that Morrie has talked about is, you know, we've thought through some of these issues that, he made and I made as a teacher, a lot of students who are coming out urban environments or they're coming out of rural environments, but where that kind of social cohesion has broken down for one reason or another, and really the question is, is there a way to supply to people under those circumstances who may be looking for things, you know, later on, that same kind of support system, or something like it, that can give them a hand? |
| [11,68] Lynn Schonchin: I think in rural communities it's probably a whole lot easier to try to pull some things and community and projects together. You know, you can do it with some things, and the inner city kids in the big cities, I really feel for those people. |
| [11,69] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [11,70] Lynn Schonchin: You know, we've lost a lot of stuff, you know, trust in each other. You know, you can't, you don't know what your neighbors are going to do anymore. And that's sad, because when I grew up, there wasn't a key to our house. There wasn't a key, it was open, and grandparents said, you know, if someone needed what's in there more we did, they took, they needed it more than we did. It was open. And there was a whole trust in community and I think that's the thing we've gotten away from it so much. Fast paced society and this and that and the communities just don't, don't function together anymore. |
| [11,71] And that small communities like this one, yeah we pull that back together. Went to a football game last night, you know this town supposedly population is 700. There was probably 300 people down there watching the ball game. You know, the athletics here is 90% of our entertainment, so it's easier to happen I think in a rural community, to pull those things. And the more we work together, the better off we are. You know, some of our issues around here is, it's not the relationships between the old families that have always been here, tribal and non-tribal: they've always been here. It's the new ones moving in and they want to bring, you know it's always amazed me, they want to come out of LA and move up here in this beautiful timber and stuff, and the first thing they do, is they get a piece of property and cut all the trees off of it. |
| [11,72] Linc Kesler: Right, right, yeah, I see that they've been in the neighborhood we've been living in. People move out to the gravel road and then pretty soon, they want to pave it, 'cause their pants are getting dirty. You know, why did you come out here? |
| [11,73] Lynn Schonchin: That's the thing, is you know, they bring the values that they have, or wherever it was, with them and those values are fine for that community, but come and check out these values here, where we're sitting right here. Haven't heard them out there yet, and that's kind of unusual, should be making noise pretty quick: two raccoons that come up on the deck, and get two skunks that'll come up on the deck, and skunks never spray or anything, and they'll check out, and they want the cat's food. Quail all over this mountain and deer walk back and forth. We've seen elk up here, you know. Move out of this community and you know, I couldn't. And we know that up here: we don't shoot that wild life, we don't mess with it. This is their home too. Share it with them. And so, you know, and it's like one of my grandchildren here, and they can see those out there, and they get all excited. You know, so I think the rural communities probably have a better opportunity. And again, it's sitting down and discussing and sharing. |
| [11,74] Linc Kesler: Yeah, and I think, you know, the other thing that sometimes people, again this is one of things that's been really interesting about, you know, hearing Morrie work with some of my classes or whatever, is that, you can see people beginning to understand that, that one, for instance, with that Termination process and the kind of experiences you were talking about, growing up with it as a child, which are similar, different casts characters in some respects, but very similar to things Morrie has said, is that, I think, people had no idea what that really meant, and what the value of that is, you know. They, everybody seems to understand what the value of a new car is or a television, but they don't understand what the value of the social cohesion is, until it's gone. And then it's hard for people to even understand what it was. |
| [11,75] Lynn Schonchin: One of the things, you know, that, I do some cross cultural trainings, and I have an exercise when we get Termination, and I'll generally ask someone in the audience to come down wherever I'm talking from and ask them for their drivers license, and they'll give it to me and I'll give them a couple of dollars, and they, well, you know, they'll say it's worth a whole lot more than that to me. That's what it's worth to me now, it's mine, I give you your two dollars. |
| [11,76] Linc Kesler: We're done here. |
| [11,77] Lynn Schonchin: We're done, and then talk with participants in the workshop. "What did I just take from that individual?" And they start talking about identity. I took his identity I took his ability to get to work, I took ability to get to medical services. You know, here's all of these things are tied to that little bitty driver's license that I took, and I says, "now, put that in terms of, you took my whole society when they took the land. You know, everything. Our people are buried on that land. They were cremated and their ashes are blown all over this land. You took all of that, and without asking, without asking." I've heard said, that what they paid us wasn't even close to the back rent that was owed, all those kinds of factors, but you know, I can remember going to Klamath Agency and (?) and treated . . . You know, we didn't worry about property taxes and federal income taxes. You know, none of those things were a part of our society. And then [snaps fingers] now you're, have to do all of these things and it's all gone, it's all different. How do you function in it? Especially, you know, they said they wanted to mainstream the Klamath but mainstream didn't want us. They not only, they never asked us, they never even asked themselves. |
| [11,78] Linc Kesler: Right, well in, you know, what do they care? |
| [11,79] Lynn Schonchin: Well, the thing with us, and I think people need to realize is, when they took the final step in 1960, we were paid on April 1, 1960. Isn't that ironic? April fool's day, we got the . . . but if you go back and you look at it, virgin pine ponderosa forest, just massive pine trees. |
| [11,80] Linc Kesler: How long did it take them to get those? |
| [11,81] Lynn Schonchin: Not long. But when they, and that's what it was all about. It wasn't about removal of federal services, it was about the timber. |
| [11,82] Linc Kesler: Right, and it wasn't about mainstreaming the population, it was about getting them out of the way. |
| [11,83] Lynn Schonchin: Well, when I go back and I look at it all, in '54 they put the Termination Act together, it was to terminate federal supervision, but also in '54 they put together Public Law 280. Public Law 280 and I think it's unconstitutional law, the Feds gave the state civil and criminal jurisdiction over certain reservations throughout the nation and we were one of them. But the spiel behind 280, was "we're gonna allow the state to go in and do criminal civil jurisdiction on those reservations because they're not capable of providing law enforcement." They're not able to, ok? 280 was applied to us and we were supposed to be the most advanced tribe in the United States, that's why were being terminated first; we were the most advanced tribe. |
| [11,84] Linc Kesler: The most ready for Termination. |
| [11,85] Lynn Schonchin: The most ready for Termination. |
| [11,86] Linc Kesler: And you happened to have that timber too. |
| [11,87] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, and so 280 comes in and says a different thing. 1700 and some members of the tribe withdrew and 400 and some remained; no choice really. We didn't have a choice, the land was going to be sold no matter what. So you had a choice that way. 70% that withdrew were automatically under trusts, and were supposed to be the most advanced tribe. We were supposed to handle our own affairs and enter into mainstream. But they stuck 70% under trust: either declared incompetent or you were minors. Our parents weren't allowed to be our guardians, see, we had our trust officers were judges, judges' attorneys, attorneys, banks. We had to, we were place under them, when we were supposed to be the most advanced tribe. Here's, so it says, and then if you look back to 1954, '53, '54 when all of that started, the most powerful lobby in congress was timber. And of course the second tribe to go through it was the Menominee, back in Wisconsin, and same thing, a timber rich tribe. So, that's what that was really about. |
| [11,88] Linc Kesler: Well, it must be, given that perspective of that past history, it must be, a pretty interesting experience to be sitting here now watching the water rights issue of last summer and then the fish runs on the Klamath river this summer and see all the different rhetoric that's coming out every side of these debates. How do you feel about all of that? |
| [11,89] Lynn Schonchin: There's enough water for everybody if you share. And last year we were in a drought, and people wouldn't, the politicians didn't recognize it, to put it bluntly. The boys at the DC, the Gordon Smiths, etc., were out here too, Widen, they were out here, they were going to make a name, they were going to stick up for this group. One of them even referred to Klamath Lake as a, "you got that huge reservoir out there full of water, why don't you use that?" They referred to it, you know, there's a whole ecosystem . . . |
| [11,90] Linc Kesler: Right, it's not a bathtub. |
| [11,91] Lynn Schonchin: And that's what they looked at it as. And they start stirring the pot and local media, Herald News, probably one of the most biased newspapers there is . . . |
| [11,92] Linc Kesler: Yeah I actually followed some of those articles . . . |
| [11,93] Lynn Schonchin: They blew it totally out of proportion. Was it drought? I was told, "you don't have a right to the fish that took care of your people since time immemorial, I have a right to let that fish die so I can grow surplus potatoes. And I can't sell my surplus potatoes." |
| [11,94] Linc Kesler: And not only that, but they're going to tell you that, that this is their "traditional farming way of life." You know, when I heard that, I have to say, I just couldn't believe it, because "traditional" for how many years has this been? You know compared too . . .. |
| [11,95] Lynn Schonchin: Compared to the tribe being here. But when I say that, you know and I don't begrudge anybody, everyman has a right to make a living, but here's these guys growing surplus potatoes: I've worked all my life, paid income taxes all of my life, so the government can buy their surplus potatoes. And then they're telling me I'm not supporting the farmer. Man, we've been paying farmer subsidies since 1920's, and if these guys really want to do it, and I can't speak for anybody, but I'd throw this out: I'll give you all the water you want, any farmer, I'll give you all the water you want, if you're willing to go free market system, and there ain't one of them that would take me on. |
| [11,96] Linc Kesler: I don't think that you'd get many takers on that one. |
| [11,97] Lynn Schonchin: No, and so it's a community that broke all of that. There's enough water, if we do it right, if these streams were maintained at minimum stream flow from the heads of the rivers and all of the streams, if we maintained a minimum stream flow in everyone of these streams, nobody'd have a need for water. But they're pulling that up there, and they're pulling that up, you know, flood irrigate on the upper ends, and that's one thing that wasn't brought into the issue, was the farmers south of Klamath Lake trying to drain Klamath Lake. They never come up here and see who was draining the rivers that were reaching Klamath Lake. And that, and then the other issue is, when you look at the land, if you really consider it, water starts at the top of the mountain. One of our tribal members said that to me one day, and that really struck, struck home, is that (?), that is that where the snow pack is, on top of the mountain. |
| [11,98] But the Forest Service cut off the top of the mountain. There's no trees to shade the snow pack to hold it. And so you got a quick melt, and not that slow melt through the whole spring. And so, and that's another equation that's never been brought into this, is look what we've done to the forest, and removal of brush and everything that holds moisture: we've removed it all. And so, we know we don't have that, that canopy out there anymore, the big trees to kind of give that snow shade. We even had a Forest Service technician tell us that you need to cut those big trees down so the snow can get to the ground. [laughs] You mean the snow can't . . . that trees going to hold a whole winters worth of snow. |
| [11,99] Linc Kesler: You think it's going to go back up again? |
| [11,100] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, it's going go back up. To listen to all of that, and the sad thing is to listen to rhetoric of uninformed people that have no clue. And the, that chuam that we call a sucker: he's fed our people from time immemorial, goes back to our legend base. All of that, is an indicator species of the Lake. If the fish dies, the Lake's dead. If the Lake's dead . . . we're, where are you? It's an ecological system, hydrology of our, the whole Klamath basin is based on that Lake. And I don't think people see it in a big picture. |
| [11,101] Lynn Schonchin: So, and people from outside of here, of course, oh there's a few Indians to a hundred trying to save an endangered fish. |
| [11,102] Linc Kesler: Right, right, it's the Indians and the eco-terrorists. |
| [11,103] Lynn Schonchin: And it's not about a fish, |
| [11,104] Linc Kesler: It's about the whole system. |
| [11,105] Lynn Schonchin: It's about the whole system, it's about life. You know it's kind of that fish, you talk about that fish, is kind of like life. Our first sucker ceremony up here on the river, you took the first one and they would cremate it, and throw its ashes back in. And by doing that it was releasing its spirit to the rest of those fish, so they could come up. In doing that, that brought us life. So see that fish is all about life. It isn't just about the lake and the water: it's about life. And, wish people could look at it in those terms and gain the respect for that, instead of a disrespect. All of the signs you see and you know, "some suckers stole my water" and all, you know, it's ridiculous. And then it seems to me that, we trace the water rights back through legal documentation. Wwe have an 1864 water right according to the treaty. The treaty talks about our water right. But nobody wants to uphold the treaty. Then nobody wants to uphold all of the laws after that that say the same comment. The Termination documents said nothing would abrogate those hunting and fishing rights and the water right, and they were talked about abrogating tribal water right. They talked about individual water right, not the tribal water right and then the Restoration document said the water right was still there. And nobody wants to pay attention to those documents, so . . . |
| [11,106] Linc Kesler: There'll be a little struggle to get that recognized. |
| [11,107] Lynn Schonchin: Well, I think it's probably one of the strongest strengths the Indian Community has today is, we were told, old folks were told when they, when the treaty was signed that they'd agreed to back the United States and follow its law, so we would become law abiding citizens. We are law-abiding citizens: we're using the law to protect our resources and everybody wants to change the law now. We didn't write the law. So that's kind of where we're at with all of this. |
| [11,108] Linc Kesler: Well, we've only got a couple of minutes left here on the tape, and I've been, as you've been talking, I've been noticing behind your head is this cane of this beadwork on it, and I'm wondering, is that your handiwork on that? |
| [11,109] Lynn Schonchin: No, that's my wife's. |
| [11,110] Linc Kesler: Is it? Wow . . . |
| [11,111] Lynn Schonchin: Yeah, she made that for her mother. |
| [11,112] Linc Kesler: I'm going to just move the camera here and get a little piece of that, there's a light in the way, so I can't get too much. But it's really, really beautiful. |
| [11,113] Lynn Schonchin: She does, as far as I'm concerned, and of course I'm biased, I've been married to the lady for 37 years, I think she does probably the best beadwork that I've ever seen. |
| [11,114] Linc Kesler: Well that's really beautiful. |
| [11,115] Lynn Schonchin: And of course too that, got to say that she's the smartest woman in the world: look who she married. |
| [11,116] Linc Kesler: Exactly. |
| [11,117] Lynn Schonchin: No she's quite good at that, and I respect her work. |
| [11,118] Linc Kesler: Well thank you so much for talking with me. It's been a real pleasure listening to you talk about all of these things. |
| [11,119] Lynn Schonchin: Appreciate you coming down and talking with us. |
|
Session 12 |
| [12,1] Linc Kesler: October 22, 2002 and we're here with Morrie Jimenez. And what will we be talking about today, Morrie? |
| [12,2] Morrie Jimenez: Well today I think there's a need of us to insert a perspective on the various activities that the tribe has been involved in over the years since the Treaty of 1864, up to present time. And I think we need, I think I'd like to talk to you a little bit about the Termination process that occurred, which pretty much did away with our land base and created a series of problems for us socially economically and politically, between that period of time that we were terminated and that time in 1986 when we were allowed to be a restored tribe. And I'll start with the Treaty of 1864 because it was treaty between the federal government and the Klamath, Modoc and Yahooskin Band of Piute Indians, and it established the Klamath Reservation at that period in time, it established also a wardship status for the Klamath tribal members, which included those three tribal units that I began, and that, our initial tribal boundaries, the indigenous tribal boundaries prior to the treaty area included, encompassed about 23 million acres. |
| [12,3] And it extended initially, that was our hunting, fishing trading areas and so forth, it extended from just south of Bend in the north to as far as Alturas California, across the California border in the south, and then from the crest of the Cascades to what was then established as the Malheur Indian Reservation that no longer exists, in the eastern part of the state, which takes you almost to the Snake River country in the southeastern part of the state. And before they, before the treaty was actually signed and confirmed by the United States Congress that 23 million dollars, that 23 million acres was pared down to the existing figure of less than a million acres through federal cessions, through the federal government, the initial session, has 17.3 million acres cession, and eventual cessions in that era of negotiating final boundary areas, for the Klamath tribal area. It went from 23 million to 17.5 to 2.5 million and eventually, when the treaty was confirmed, we wound up with less than a million acres, to around 860,000 acres. And we existed as a reservation in a treaty community between that time, 1864 until 1954 when the Termination Act was enacted. |
| [12,4] So that was a period of 90 years, we existed as a reservation group. And as a reservation group, even in the light of what the federal government was trying accomplish for us in terms, in terms of assimilation, we existed pretty much as a traditional community, traditional tribal community. What with who is asked to respond to Bureau of Indian Affairs mandates, and eventually Indian Health Services mandates, in terms of how we should be living our life, and also how effective we could utilize their service to us as government agencies who had responsibility for monitoring our activities and monitoring the development of that reservation over that 90 year period. And so in that 90 years we were able to pretty much of our traditional way of life because we still existed as a tribal community located in our home area. But at the same time, the federal government, who had intent of moving us forward into a more assimilated lifestyle, educationally, politically and socially, there were a lot of adjustments that we had to negotiate with the federal government. And ultimately what we wound up with is a diminishing of so many of the traditional cultural ways of life that existed prior to the Treaty of 1864. |
| [12,5] But still at the same time, because of the fact that we still had our land, at least a million acres, nearly a million acres of our original land base, we were still able to practice a lot of the traditional ways of doing things, in face of governmental intervention and intention to move us forward in assimilation. And that was not, in many cases that created a lot of difficult situations for us as tribal people trying to maintain our culture, and at the same time trying to meet government intent to move us where they wanted to move us. And that's the way we existed and that's a period of time in, in that period, that 90 years, that I would refer to in the previous taping sessions, the other taping sessions, or I was able to come up, I was able to live a lifestyle that allowed me to be exposed to a lot of those cultural traditional customary ways of doing things: the celebrations and so forth. |
| [12,6] And we existed in that situation until 1954, when the Congressional, when Congress decided again it was time to come up with a new way to move tribes, specified tribes forward to more assimilated way of life, and this was occurring, of course, primarily because of internal pressure by tribes to acquire more resource, effective resource that they could make available to their communities, but also because of public pressure by non-Indian people. And, as you well know, historically, we've always had that segment of our total population who came forward at times to, in an effort to make life easier and make life more equitable for tribes, primarily because of the social, the social belief systems of the non-Indian people, we had religious groups we had political groups, who came forward on a cyclical basis to push for moving Indian tribes into more assimilated social situation here in the United States. |
| [12,7] In 1954 with the intent of moving some of those tribes into a more assimilated lifestyle, Public Law 587 was enacted by the Congress of the United States. And the intent of Public Law 587 was very simply, to end, in their opinion, to create a situation that would create an ending to a segregated race. They, the political and social pressures had indicated that the government was being involved in promoting a segregated race situation for tribal communities across the county. A secondary intent, was of course was assimilation which had been there for quite a while, to move tribes forward so that they became a more accepted, assimilated part. Assimilation to us, by this period in history meant very simply that, it meant there was potential greater loss of the traditions, customs and traditional ways of doing things. And that concerned, that concerned a great number of us within those units who were in, were affected by the intent to move us forward into total assimilation. A third intent was of course was to end the wardship status of federal government, to allow Indians to become self-determining groups of people, Indian tribes to become self-determining political entities. And it would also, the end of the wardship status would also hopefully would create a situation whereby the congress wouldn't have to set aside so much funding to support Indian communities across the state in their reservation status. |
| [12,8] And then of course of fourth intent was to move tribal members forward into a situation where they would be able to enjoy all the duties, obligations and privileges of the rest of the citizens of the United States, 'cause there were a lot of things that Native Americans were not allowed to do. We didn't become citizens of the United States officially until 1924, by a congressional enactment. The fact that we were wards of the federal government also, also created great number of situations that made us ineligible for a consideration for local services, for state services, for regional services, social, political and otherwise. So, that was another intent to move us forward, is so that we could enjoy those privileges and obligations and duties. And, and a part of that, a part of that Termination act also required, or recommended that all of this be accomplished to, with the ultimate end of making sure that the rights of Indians would receive a priority consideration in all of this congressional legislation, in all of this, in all of this Termination process. |
| [12,9] Completion of the, so it was, came to the forefront in 1954, was passed in 1954. The original date that was projected for completion of the Termination process was 1958, so then in six we were going to, we were going to be moved into a more assimilated process. Even though we had spent so many years, 10,000 years before 1864, ninety years since of Treaty of 1864; we were going to, we were going to move the Indians forward into a more assimilative process and state. That was the extent. In 1958 date, when we started nearing 1958, the completion date, the projected completion date for the Termination process. The people who were assigned responsibility for setting up the management process to implement the Termination process went back to congress and said there's no way it was going to happen by 1958 so it was extended congressionally by congressional mandate to 1960. So the, the total Termination process covered a period of time from 1954 through 1960. |
| [12,10] And again, our, the management specialists who had responsibility for overseeing this process of Termination, not only made that recommendation. But again, we had, we had the general population across the United States, who again became involved with what was happening in the Termination process because stories coming out of the Klamath county region and being picked up by newspaper, about how the process was moving along and what was happening within the county situation that was impacting our tribal intent to accomplish what it was that was guaranteed in the basic intent, and particularly in, as it relates to Klamath tribal members being asked to move into a situation whereby they would be, they would be asked to assume all of the duties, obligation and privileges of free citizens. And all of sudden people began to realize that wasn't going to happen over night, that what we were looking at was a process that was going to take many more years then the period between 1954 and 1960 when Termination, the Termination process itself was ended. |
| [12,11] The, there was a management team, a specialist who was assigned responsibility for overseeing, as I had said initially, and that included also tribal representatives from our still existing tribal executive committee, and they, that combination of people, the management team specialists had responsibility for overseeing and monitoring, implementing the process, the Termination process. And they existed, and they existed all during this period of time that I mentioned here, the Termination process. And they, their primarily responsibility is to come up with some process that would allow for disposition of all the tribal property. What we're talking about, what we're talking about are the forest lands, the Klamath Marsh area, the open range areas, the farm lands, the water and mineral resources and the tribally owned buildings and equipment. And so they had to come up with some way to, to allow for a disposition of that tribal property. |
| [12,12] And they, so they, their principal responsibility was to appraise all those tribal assets, showing, coming up with a fair market value, because the secondary responsibility is that they were to conduct an election among tribal members for the purpose of determining individual choices that were made available to them in the Termination Bill. And your choices were very simply, there was no choice about the fact that we were going to be Terminated that's a misperception that's been going on for so many years, that the choice given to us was the choice to terminate or not to terminate. The decision, that decision was made by congress, involved not only us but numerous other tribes in the country. The choices that, the choices that we had was to remain, we could make a choice regarding whether we wanted to withdraw from that, that suggested process, withdraw from the tribe or to remain, not as a tribe, but as a trust unit: that was the only option that they had. Wardship status, the tribal status was not an option, we couldn't elect. We either elected to withdraw from the tribe at that particular point in time or we elected to remain as a member of a potential trust unit that would be developed for that purpose. |
| [12,13] And those who, the 77, there were 77% of our tribe who elected to withdraw. And so they elected to take their share of assets and cash as a result of that. So there was appraisal process that had to be developed to determine what that amount would be. And then the remaining members represented the other 23% of our total tribal enrollment, approximately 2100 at that particular point in time, 2100 tribal members. And so 23% of those elected to remain, not as a tribal unit, but as a trust cooperative. And the US Bank eventually was assigned responsibility for being the trust unit for that particular group. And so, the initial appraisal and the initial assessment of the value of the resources that belonged to the Klamath Tribe that resulted from that was approximately a hundred, over a hundred and twenty million dollars. So that meant that the withdrawing members would receive the initial projection was $58,000 a piece. And with that $58,000 then they would be released into the general population, to fend their way, as they were projecting, in the assimilation process. |
| [12,14] There was a reappraisal that was required, that was brought about the factualism that began, the very strong factualism, the internal factualism that developed within the tribe, whereby certain groups of our tribal members decided that what was going on was unfair, was not right, and all of that pressure brought about a reappraisal of that original figure, so that that figure was reduced to the proportion figure, that was reduced for the withdrawing members, was reduced to $43 000 and that was what was distributed to the individual members when the Termination process was completed around 1960. So each of them received a check for $43 000. The other, the remaining members, their $43 000 checks were placed into a trust cooperative managed by the US Bank at that particular point in time and then even they decided to terminate that relationship ten years later, after 1960, around in 1970, 1971. And by then the values had risen significantly as money was growing, as the economic system in the country had improved considerably since, during that period of time. And they, they realized eventually around $173 000 per individual when they terminated that trust. But it all had to do with the natural growth of the trust funds during that period of time. |
| [12,15] The reservation at the end of Termination, what we wound up with is that were great number, in order to raise the money to reach the appraised valuation fair value they had, they wound up selling a lot of the tribe's natural resources, the forest lands and so forth. And they wound up with a situation where there was, the lots were so large that they were trying to sell of tribal, that the federal government stepped in and bought up the approximately six hundred thousand acres of the prime timberland. And they also bought up the Klamath Marsh area and that became a national wildlife fish and wildlife refuge. And then they also, so they bought up the forest lands and then they took the rest of the, approximately two hundred thousand acres plus, and they sold it to private entrepreneurs, private entities and most of that were lumbering companies who came in and bought up significant units. And there were also significant numbers of people who came in and bought up the former lot of the open range and grazing lands, because the open range and the grazing lands that we had were valuable pieces of property to those who wanted to get involved in the cattle raising business, the ranching business and so there's, they a lot of that was purchased by those particular kinds of people. |
| [12,16] And so we wound up eventually with six hundred thousand acres plus going back to the federal government and we received "fair compensation" value from the federal government for that. And then we also received the fair compensation, and of course this was all determined by the management specialists who had responsibilities for accessing the valuation, the total valuation of the tribes. And so by 1961 the Termination process had been completed but at the last you, at the last meeting of our executive committee, which was in other tribes referred to as Tribal Councils, it was decided by the people in attendance at that last meeting that, there were further, potential further claims against the government that existed out there. So at that meeting a resolution was passed by tribal governments to establish an ongoing executive committee who would, who would exist as a claims committee against the federal government. And the all of the members, withdrawing and remaining members contributed a certain amount of their share, of what was paid to them as a result of Termination, into a general fund to support a general litigation claim against the federal government. And we hired a law firm out of Washington DC, very large well known law firm with a great deal of experience in terms of litigating on behalf of tribal concerns and tribal issues. |
| [12,17] And that claims committee, that was established at that particular point in time, 1961, existed as a litigating group, tribal litigating group, from 1961 through 1977. And then, I think, it's, that's a general projection, and the purpose was primarily to represent the Klamath Tribe in litigating in Federal Court claims against the US Government. And those claims primarily dealt with claims of mismanagement of tribal properties, mismanagement of accounting, fiscal affairs, and they were, there were approximately five claims against the federal government, dealt with mismanagement, misappropriation of tribal resources in that period of time that the reservation was established in 1864: it went back that far. And up to the point in time of Termination in 1961, the, there was a grazing claim, there was a rights of way claim for all the rights of way that were, that were driven across the reservation by electrical utility companies, by the transportation department and by the forest service itself. |
| [12,18] Therw were disallowed; there were claims for disallowed expenditures by the Bureau of Indian Affairs including the, and also, a loss of interest in how they managed that money, the potential loss of interest. There was a harvest claim regarding forest resources that involved an undercutting of the timber resources and the subsequent loss of potential monies and finances that could have resulted from the way they managed the forest at that particular. |
| [12,19] Those claims were settled in the late 1970's to the financial benefit of the tribes. And of course, we had to negotiate what financial benefit to the tribes, we were asked to finally determine whether in fact we wanted to accept the government's offer, or reject the government's offer and continue with litigation. By this time, we had tremendous needs that developed within the Klamath County unit, for all our tribal members wherever they existed who were having a great deal of difficulty establishing that economic subsistence that would, that would allow them to fulfill the intent of the Termination process. And so there was a great deal of pressure and of course we reported back. And I was a member of that claims committee in that period of time; and we had responsibility for reporting back all potential decisions that we were going to have to make to the tribal unit, to the tribe. And we had, we had to constantly request their review of what our attorneys were doing, and they, we took to the general council all final potential settlement figures to the tribe. And as I recall, it was well over a hundred and thirty, hundred and forty million dollars that we were allowed to bring back to the tribe as a result of those, of the successful litigation on those claims in federal court systems. |
| [12,20] And at the end, at the end of that period of time, then the claims committee no longer existed and we, and we were a tribe who were attempting to fulfill the intent of the Termination process and so many of our, so many of our people left the community because there was no possible way for them economically and politically and socially, to accomplish what it was. And so they, in other words, make a living because of the way the situation was still in Klamath County, so a lot of our people left the area. And then of course there were people like myself who got an education, entered into another vocational area and like me, started, relocated to other parts of the state and other parts of the country, in fact. And the community members in the original area of the former Klamath Reservation were very busy trying to make a living and trying to establish a place for themselves within the social situation in Klamath County. |
| [12,21] The Termination, I'm often asked, how were the tribes impacted and in between 1953 and 1980, and the 1980's, during, 1980's being that period of time when there was a lot of congressional movement to move tribes back to a self determining status. And there was even discussions initiated in the early 1980's that tribes, those tribes that had been terminated in the 50's and 60's be returned to, to tribal, to tribal recognition. And in 1953, prior to the initiation of the Termination process in Klamath County, we were judged to be at our near parity with Klamath County populations in terms of our ability to survive economically, politically and socially. In 1957, four years later, we still, that was just a period of four years, we only had five Klamath tribal members that were on welfare in Klamath County. So, we were still in, not in bad shape in that period of time, but that's only four years removed, or three years removed from the Termination process being initiated. And of those four or five tribal members that were on welfare, four of them were elders, ok? And one of those people were, was a disabled, handicapped person. |
| [12,22] But between 1966 and 1980, when we started getting more, acquiring more valid information about what was happening to the Klamath people, these kinds of statistics became available to us: 28% of our community died by age 25, 52% of our community members were dying by age 40, and in fact, I can remember very simply reading those statistics back when I was a much younger person. And the mortality rate was being, in Native American mortality rate in the country was being tallied as age 40. That created a lot of concerns for me, personal concern for me. Being a young person who had a few years to go to age 40; and that has always stayed with me over the years. And when I got passed age 40, and the farther I moved past age 40, I felt myself luckier every year that I got past age 40. But it was interesting how it affected me. And I'm sure it must have impacted other of the tribal members, not only in our community but other tribal communities across the country to read statistics like that. Also, 40% of all deaths in this period of time, between 1960 and 1980, and this was true in our community, were alcohol related deaths. |
| [12,23] And most of us in our community had relatives; we had family members, nuclear family members who were a part of that really terrible statistic. And of course, the alcoholism, even like today was a result of loss of faith in a system of non-participation in the ongoing process. And we had a pretty good idea, would create such situation for people who'd become involved in that. Infant mortality rate in that period of time for us, in our area, was two and half times the state average at that particular point in time. 70% of our adults had less than a high school education. In preparing for this talk, I've had occasion to go back and look a lot of the documentation that I was able to keep over the years, and dust it off, and be, start reviewing that. And in the back of this a part of the management process, the management team process also required that an educational program be developed at the adult level and for kids and for K-12, and also for those people eligible for post-secondary education. So the management teams handed the responsibility to create an educational process that would prepare the Klamath tribal members for assimilation into the general population. So the Klamath Indian Education was developed in 1955, shortly after the Termination was initiated and lasted until 1961. |
| [12,24] And their responsibility was to do everything that they possibly could to prepare all of the adult people for the, for the Termination process, and to prepare them to move into an assimilated existence within the county, within the state. The education process for that education program involved adult education programs, involved adult vocational education programs, involved post-secondary education programs. And of course, they worked very closely with the school districts; in fact, the state department of education, back in 1955, was given responsibility oversee the development of that education process for the tribes, particularly as it related to what was being done in K-12 schools in Klamath County. And in reviewing that material I was, I became a part of the statistics. In, and the report that they finally made available to the federal government is proof positive that they were doing their job. And in the back of this document is a list of all those people that were involved in that, in what they were providing in that particular point in time. And the Klamath Education students were being identified individually, the name of the school that they were attending in this period of time was designated, the courses that they were specializing the number of months they had been in the program, and whether they, and then comments being made relative to, "did they complete the program," "did they drop the program," and so forth. |
| [12,25] And it was really interesting, as I began going through this representation, the number of our people who took advantage of that education program, the number of those people who had dropped the program, and as compared to the number of the people who completed the program who were on a continuing involvement with their program. And my brother and I's names appeared in this document. I had forgotten all about that. And I was, and there are very few of the people that had been listed in this, being participants in this program, who completed, who completed their program, But 70% of Klamath tribal rolls had less than a high school education at this point. Poverty levels of Klamath tribal members was three times that of non-Indians in the county. 56% of tribal people over 40 had no health insurance. 56% of those over 40, no health, 30% of those over 65 had no health insurance. Of course there was no Medicare, no Medicaid provision for them also. |
| [12,26] And so, two other really critical impacts that I've mentioned up to this point in time, I'd like to mention again. One of them, of course was the negative perception and rejection of Klamath peoples because of their part in the Termination process by other tribal communities across the state and across the nation. You can't believe the number of times that I was subjected to criticism, once I was identified as a Klamath tribal member. And the message by that time, it's very clear across the country, I can remember being criticized as being a member of a unit who were "turn coats", who were identified as "turn coats," as "give aways, your culture kinds of people" that type of thing, and in Seattle, in southwest part of the country and other parts of the country, once they found out I was a member of terminated community. So that was a critical. And that was hard thing for us to overcome over the years. As being identified by other tribal units as not being strong enough politically, socially, culturally, economic to sustain our former reservation status. |
| [12,27] And of course, the other impact involved misperceptions by non-Indian people. And so, a particularly those involved with social service agencies, which were to be serving all people in their communities at the local, state and national levels and regional levels. So, that in many cases, that create barriers to Klamath peoples in getting and acquiring the necessary assistance that they need to be part of the general population. And this occurred in social service agency, big number of social service agencies, number one, well "you're an Indian," there was still the perception that the federal government took care of all of us, and we didn't have need for social, you needed, go to the BIA and they'd, you needed to go to the health services. But being terminated tribes we were not allowed to participate in that program: we were not a part of that process anymore. In education, it created a lot of problems of us because there were, again the misperception that because we were members of an Indian tribe, although we were a terminated tribe, nobody understood the Termination, there were very few people who understood what happened in the Termination process, so there was still those perceptions, that being Indian people we were eligible for funding that would allow us to go on into post-secondary education experiences. And that wasn't true: we lost that access. |
| [12,28] And of course, the financial agencies who were in the business of lending money also had that same misperception; that because we were still Indian people, we still had access to federal resources. And so that created a lot of problems for us in terms of being able to access the services, the economic, political and social services that other people in the general population had, which was guaranteed to us as a part of the assimilation process, that once we were assimilated, we would be eligible for all of these kinds of services. And so, those were, those were the major impacts that I thought of, upon. The loss of culture, I've already talked about what happened to us as cultural entity. |
| [12,29] And so that brings us up to the present time, so we've started with the Treaty of 1864, we've moved to the Termination process, we talked about the impacts and where we are now. In 1986 through political and social pressure again, congress decided that it was time to restore those tribes that terminated, and we were one of those tribes. So the Klamath Restoration Act was passed in 1986, after thirty-two years of Termination. And after thirty-two years of dealing with the economics, social economic impacts that I just addressed, and we were restored as a, the, government, relationship with the federal government was restored, which made us eligible again for the financial resources of the federal government, that other tribes enjoyed, restored tribal recognition and eligibility for all those federal sources that were available to the five hundred plus, six hundred plus tribes in the country. And it was initiated, and a new policy of self-determination, we're not only restored as tribes but we were moved into a new era of tribal self-determination, because of what happened in the 70's and 80's that moved the other tribes into the self-determination process. The, so we were allowed reorganize our tribal government. We were required by mandate of that particular act to come up with a "Economic Self Sufficiency Plan." |
| [12,30] And that's where we are now. We're in the, we've developed our economic self-sufficiency, we've initiated activity in that, in fulfilling the goals of that economic self sufficiency, we've established tribal government. We've re-established tribal base to support litigation that guarantees our hunting, fishing and gathering rights. We've never lost that, even with the treaty of 1864, we never lost our hunting, fishing and gathering rights. That was, we didn't realize that, of course, until they started, the state started, in 19, between that period of time that we were terminated and the Restoration act, we still practiced hunting, fishing and gathering on the reservation. And many times, we did that without buying state hunting licenses or we did that just as we traditionally did. And in many cases we started paying the penalty for it. Local authorities began arresting our people, state authorities began reinforcing state guidelines and local guidelines in the area of hunting and fishing and gathering. |
| [12,31] So a segment of our population went to court over the issue and in 1974 there was a court decision handed down. It's called "Kimball versus Callahan, Kimball being one of our tribal members, who, by the way, served as tribal chairman for a period of time, and he took that case to court. He and his group took that case to court. And the courts upheld treaty rights for hunting, fishing and gathering. So in 1979, the state of Oregon went back to federal court and asked to the federal court to rebuff the initial decision in that regard. And the courts again reinforced our, the treaty rights of hunting, fishing and gathering. And at the same time, there were, in 1984, due to situations that were occurring with the water resources in the Klamath County, a few cases came to bear on right tribal water, tribal hunting, fishing and water rights, which we began claiming also because of what was happening to the wildlife resources on the former reservation. We were claiming harvest rights that were directly related to water rights. "Is that how," what we were saying to the federal courts, "how can we, how you can guarantee us hunting, fishing and gathering rights when the water rights issue needs to be settled at the same time, because the water rights issue directly affect the, the resources that we need in order to subsist." |
| [12,32] So the water shortage in, that eventually developed, well had been developing for a long time, but it was brought to bear in 1990 and 2000, between 1990 and 2002, water shortage in the Klamath Basin, brought not only our tribe, but also California tribes into conflict with the water users, both up stream and down stream of the former reservation area. And regarding over-appropriation of water, regarding uncoordinated federal state policies. There was the Department of the Interior, there's Bureau of Land Management, there was a Bureau of Indian Affairs, there was a Bureau of Reclamation, all with their own particular set of rules and regulations governing how the water would be used. And in, so we really felt there was a need for the federal government to take a very serious look at what was happening in Klamath County, in terms of the appropriation of water and all these federal and state policies that currently existed, and of course the obvious pollution and the drought. And then the endangered species acts brought in another piece of that concern for what was happening to our natural resources. |
| [12,33] Tribal recommendations that we made and we produced to the governing agencies and to congress, in trying to Klamath Basin compact users, is recommendation based on identified need, we think for all the parties involved: tribal units, for the water users association, to accept the fact, and agree on the fact that there were two, there was a, there were two major issues that had to be addressed. Number one, we had to agree that the ecosystems in the Klamath Basin had reached a point of degradation, that was very, very, that was very, very (?), very, very serious, problem was a major cause of the water issues, the water rights issues. And that secondly, if we were going to solve this problem, that it's going to require a restored ecosystem. And along with that we've also adopted as a part of our tribal goals a process that will hopefully bring us back land re-acquisition of, as much of the former reservation lands as we possibly can. Our goal at this particular point in time is approximately 600,000 acres, which means that we've targeted basically, the federal lands that were acquired during the Termination process, the forest lands and the Klamath Marsh lands. And so I'm hoping that what we've done is laid a little bit of foundation for understanding the Termination processes that impact upon the tribal people over the years. Because it's impacted our cultural, our cultural belief systems, our cultural practices. |
| [12,34] Linc Kesler: One of the things that people I was talking to on the weekend were stressing was how the severe the impact, economic impact was, that Termination, just in creating a sort of a diaspora of people off of the reservation. And what that seemed to affect most directly was the close knit social continuity that had existed in those communities up until that point, a lot of which was organized, a lot of which was organized around specific economic activates, harvests of one sort or another; and that with the loss of land base, not only did those practices stop, but then there was no way for people to remain in the area. So, pretty serious impact in those ways. |
| [12,35] Morrie Jimenez: Land, yeah, the loss of the land base, created so many problems for us, as you just described. And the fact that there was a natural, there was a belief system among those people who had responsibility for implementing and Termination, that assimilation; total assimilation was going to take place overnight. And because, because the situation that previously existed between the reservation based tribe and the Klamath County community in that period of time, in that ninety years prior to Termination, and I, I've mentioned this before, assimilation, total assimilation was something that, that just didn't happen. There was, there was an obvious need for the tribe to remain very close integral unit and rely upon themselves to survive. We had to negotiate what could negotiate with the economic institutions, the educational institutions and it was something that was ongoing, very difficult process, for example, to get the education community to, to agree with us as to what had to occur in the educational process, if in fact they were going to be successful in helping us move forward in the assimilation process. |
| [12,36] The report that I mentioned that was developed by the Klamath Indian Education Program in this period of Termination, points that out very definitely, and they speak of specific things that have to occur within the K-12 educational systems, if in fact we were going to be successful in meeting our goals for assimilation, let alone their goals, and then, of course, there were two perspectives of what that meant and what that was supposed to mean, involve. That's very, very true and the diaspora that you, and I think is a very good term, that you mentioned, a lot of people just plain gave up, and moved out of the community. They moved west into the Rogue valley area for jobs, which is very interesting also. They moved northward into Eugene, a lot of, we had a significant number of our people moved into Medford area, into the Eugene area, the Cottage Grove area, further north into the Salem area; we had a significant number of people in the Salem area, into the Portland community, a number of our people who moved forward into the Warm Springs community, because of its close proximity to the Klamath tribe, who'd, who had long term relations already with many members of the Warm Springs community and eventually became inter-married in the Warm Springs community, eventually gained employment in the Warm Springs community and that type of thing. |
| [12,37] So there was significant numbers of our people who chose that as an option, just moving out of the county, into areas that they, that there was less misperception about who they are and from whence they came, and more eager to work with other peoples. My situation was such that my educational goals created that natural migration away from them, but since Restoration, it's, we, I've been informed there's significant number of our, so many of them are gone now, of the original people who left. So many of their descendants have moved back into the community because of what's available in returns of potential assistance. Of course, that particular group, the descendants of those people who went through this process, were not provided for in the Termination process; they were not, they didn't share in what was dispersed to the Klamath people as a result of the Termination process. So, they've been surviving on their own, in a number of different ways. But a lot of them have suffered over the years because of the loss of that land base and the loss of the culture and what was made available to them as a reservation, as a reservation unit. |
| [12,38] Linc Kesler: Given the way that the landscape of the reservation changed after the Termination, and, you know, it's evident now in the last couple of years, and what's come to the public's attention as a long process of environmental degradation with the condition of the lake and so forth and the water issues and the wildlife issues that have followed that; what, how closely do you believe that the Termination, the momentum for the Termination process in congress as a federal policy was tied to resource issues and desire to gain access to those resources? |
| [12,39] Morrie Jimenez: That's, of course, you're going to hear a very biased opinion at this particular point in time, but my opinion is based not only what happened at the Klamath Tribe, but what's happened historically to Native American communities across the country. It goes clear back to the original settlement of this country, exploration and settlement of this country. And being a student, being a long time student about that relationship between Native American communities and the federal government and state governments over the years, I've developed my own perception about the causes of concern among Native American communities, what's happened to them over the years. I used to have, I prepared a presentation once for my students in an attempt to explain that to them, 'cause they came up with those same kinds of questions in their own fashion: what happened to the Indian people? You know, and where are they now? And why did that happen? |
| [12,40] And so trying to describe that federal Indian, tribal relationship over the years, I've, I'd developed (?) in the process, and a structure and teaching structure that goes something like this: in order, in trying to explain this to students, we explain the exploration process and what naturally occurred in the exploration process in terms of initial contacts with tribal people and native, indigenous peoples in the country and the taking of, the taking of furs and the taking of their initial taking of natural resources and the sharing that went on back then. And then the settlement of the country beginning back on the North Atlantic coastal plane, and in North and South America and various parts of North and South America as more and more people began exploring and began settling in the new country. And then after settling and then the development of the new frontier of entrepreneurs came in and were looking for gold and silver and additional natural resources they could utilize back in their own country, in their home areas. And, of course, the development of the business entrepreneurships that came in their established business and stores and trading companies. |
| [12,41] And then eventually following that, the development of those (?) people interested in established new land bases and new world and the political development of this country and the economic development of this country, social development of this country, and as the country grew, and then shifted from the East Coast to the West Coast and then eventually into the South and Central America at the same time, those frontiers as they moved it across the country, began creating reactions and responses by the Indigenous communities that were, and those reactions and responses, I have, I've given them, I've given those movements names also. You think of the relocation, the natural relocation that had to occur. And the conflicts that developed as a result of those relocation efforts. Not in every cases, but in too many cases, eventually the dislocation, in many cases, that went along with the relocation of tribes that were asked to leave their indigenous areas and or to move into more concentrated areas. And they eventual development of national attitude, congressional attitude, the best way to take care of it, was to establish the reservation systems. And then eventually, and eventually all of those, and then eventually we reached the Termination process. And now we've moved into the Restoration process. |
| [12,42] But every one of those processes had great impacts, that was best explained to me, I was sharing this in a much more simplified manner and I had some overheads and some overlays, whereby I was able to, I had developed a process where I was able with overlays to put colored sheets that represented the various frontiers as, and I was talking to a group of fourth of fifth grade students, could have been a little older than that, but it was grade students. And one of the young ladies raised her hand while I was in the process of laying these overlays showing the development of those various frontiers; and she raised her hand and said, "Mr. Jimenez?" And I said, "yes?" And she said, "what's happened to the people? What's happening to the Indian people during all of this process? Where are they going?" And it was, she had determined that they were being squeezed closer and closer and closer together. And as, when the various frontiers met, that was her question: where are they going to be? You know, are they going to disappear? And so, you moved, it moved you, moved me very quickly into explaining what happened to the tribes also as, in terms of the reservation process, and the negotiations with the federal government, the establishment of the Bureau of Indian Affairs as overseers and monitors of the tribes, and so forth. |
| [12,43] But I thought that was very, very, very, very interesting reaction by a grade school person, and trying, in trying to get others, older than that child to understand that, it was puzzling to me that sometimes older students couldn't see what was happening. Because once they saw that it developed a better understanding in my mind of what happened to the tribes. And that, it was interesting as a part of my educational process: I ran into that thesis, which talked about the various frontiers that developed, by the historian by the name of Fredrick Jackson Turner, wrote a thesis in that regard and I've always remembered that, and I've utilized that every since. And what was your question? Did I answer your question? |
| [12,44] Linc Kesler: I think it was just the relation of all those policies to resource issues, and you know economic motivations and so forth. |
| [12,45] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, and there's no question in my mind, and that's right, I remember what your question was now, there's no question in my mind, as I mentioned to you before, and I gave you that little quote out of that book: ultimately, the federal, we've never shared in what, in to any strong, in any strong way to determining what's best for Indian people. We've had federal, the federal and state governments and local governments who've always made those decisions for us because they've always had access to our goals to our mission. They were always the determining thing. The federal government, what did they want? They wanted land, they wanted resources, which included water, they wanted timber, they wanted all of those things, and they found, they have found ways to gain all of that. And the water users in Klamath county right now are trying to utilize that same process to gain what it is that they want. |
| [12,46] Linc Kesler: Well, thank you. We're at the end of our tape. |
| [12,47] Morrie Jimenez: All right. |
|
Session 13 |
| [13,1] Linc Kesler: Well it's October 31, 2002 and I'm here with Morrie Jimenez once again, and what are your thoughts for us on this Halloween, Morrie? |
| [13,2] Morrie Jimenez: Well, based upon previous discussion that we had and, regarding some stories that I had shared with various classes at Oregon State University, and your interest as well, I thought I would try to recall some of the really educating experiences that I had in my effort to become a better educated person, particularly in the area of multi-cultural education. And most of my education, the majority of my education, of course, came from a great number of sources, but a key critical part of that came from the elders of my community and the elders of other communities that have helped me grow, professionally, and personally, and socially. And so, in looking back through some materials, in, that I had developed regarding the history of the Indian people, I recall this little poem that I ran across, and the poem was accompanied by just a terribly beautiful picture of an elderly male Indian person. And I don't even recall who wrote this poem, but I, it's always, I stuck it into my papers over the years, and it's entitled "The Last Warrior", and I have another picture in my bedroom of an elderly male person, and when I read this, I think of my grandfather, my great-grandfather, as he sat on the porch in Chiloquin, at my grandmother's home. |
| [13,3] And he was quite elderly at that particular point in time, but I can see him so clearly, and, in his grey felt hat and with the brim on it and with his plaid wool shirt and his heavy duck, pants and big wide, dark suspenders, and his boots, and his grizzled old face etched by, of course, so many years experience, growing up as an individual in his age. And so, when I think of this poem, I think of him and think about also of many other people that I've met, elders that I've met, not only males, but females, elders that I've met in the various Indian communities that I've served. And the poem goes like this: "How long, should you not look grim, Old Chief? How long, how well have you outlasted hunger? And how many days have you outlived starvation? And how long, and how many ways have you endured history's inhumanities? How surely have you shamed despair? But there you sit tall, erect, proud, turn toward darkness, unmoved, unterrified facing down the fear of death. What power flows to you, Old and Ancient One? Real member of the true Ones, from that dim abyss of old belief, which is beginning to recede, beyond that time, which was yours." |
| [13,4] And that poem has stuck with me through the years. And I think of that poem, when I read that poem, I think of all the elders that I've met in my lifetime who've affected me and impacted me in the same way, not only with how they look, how they appear physically, but also the words that they've shared with me over the years and the thoughts that they've shared with me over the years, that reflected a system, in, for many cultures has disappeared or is in the process of disappearing. I think there's a, you know, I've often said regarding the environmental factors and the ecological factors that we're currently, that we currently find in discussions involving land acquisitions, regarding preservation of water rights, I've thought quite often, and I've said this to students, one of the biggest problems we have in trying to convince people of our position regarding the need to preserve and restore our systems, is it's very difficult to share that in a meaningful way with people who've not grown up in those kinds of experiences. And in many cases, people have been very polite to me, but as one who's has spent so many years in front of students, of all ages, it's very easy to, to measure sometimes, and sometimes you make mistakes in trying to access the impacts on your audience. |
| [13,5] But I find that in many cases, I can move students with the stories of former reservation life, the loss of the land base, the current issues involving water rights issues, and ecological and environmental issues. I can move students because our natural inclinations, inherent in young people, in most people, in general, but without the, without that real experience of having grown up in our kind of environment, growing up on reservation, with the Klamath marsh and with the lakes systems and the river systems and the wilderness systems, involving both vegetation and wild life that was a natural part of our environment, and the lessons that you gain from being a part of that environment, came to you in many, many different ways. Most of them came to you, came, most of those lessons were given to you by elders, who took the time to share with you their existence and their existence with an environmental setting. And always, there were lessons to be taught, regarding stewardship responsibilities, stewardship regarding sharing, regarding protection of your, of those things that have sustained through the life, through your life, while we were on the reservation, our responsibility that you had to share with others, which you gained from the environment from "Mother Earth," if you will. |
| [13,6] And so I was, I recall one particular experience that reinforced that for me, is that back in the early 70's I as a part of my duties involving my relationship with the State Department of Education, and also extending in later years, to my involvement with Oregon State University and Jefferson County Schools and the Confederate Tribes in the Warm Springs, I spent about seven years sitting on a National Council of Desegregation, which I had mentioned before, as a consultant in education, in the project. The project had enough money built into it, resources built into it, so that we were able to set up about twenty, twenty-five sites across the country, whereby we would go in and with the aid of students and parents, and staffs of school districts, be able to tell a story about the history of desegregation, and more than that, our intent was to see what impacts have been made. But we didn't want that from the people who were responsible for managing the programs; we wanted that input to come from the students who were most directly affected the intents of the Desegregation effort. |
| [13,7] And by that time, although the Desegregation had been focused on the needs in the Black Community, by, the time we had reached the early 70's, we had reached a point where in this particular project, we began wanting to develop parallels between the experiences and impacts on black people in seeing how it was also, how similar the patterns with other populations, the Hispanic population, the Asian population and eventually the Native American population, so we were very, the Native American experience was built into that project, and so that's why I was there, to serve as a consultant, in Indian education, to sit on that advisory board and offer advice as to where we think those sites should be, and then to train and assist in the training of the staffs, the crews, that would be sent into these individual sites across the country. And so we spent a lot of time discussing modes of operation, personality differences, historical differences, and then that created the need for our crews to be aware of and sensitive to, as they moved into these areas, because in order for us to get these films. Then there were going to be about thirty segment films, in these various sites across the country. It was critical that we get the involvement and the cooperation of the communities that we were in. |
| [13,8] And one of the communities that we selected was Sels Arizona with Hopi people in that area. And so we, we trained our staffs and then we sent them out with the strategies on how to negotiate a position with the various tribal units, relative to: "Can we come in and film? Would you be willing? Would you share with us what any concerns that you have about things that we may want, questions that we may want to ask, or segments that we may want to film, and then we will give you also" -- we had to go in and say to them -- "we will give you final say, as to what comes out of your community in the final product." And I can remember sitting down with this, with the crew that was assigned responsibility for going into three or four tribal communities across the country, one in Rapid City South Dakota, one in Sels Arizona, and talking to them about strategies as to how, that would hopefully help them fulfill their mission. And then we sat back and allowed the crews to do their work across the country. |
| [13,9] And we we were on call to our national director of this project, which was a person who was based with television station, WWTW [ed: WTTW] in Chicago I think it was, who was in Chicago, I think it was WWTW, Channel 11. And I got a phone call one evening from that director saying that they had some problems down at Sels Arizona and the crew was running into some difficulty getting material released, and in fact, had reached a point where the community had decided that maybe they didn't want to be a part of the project after all. "Would I . . . " the director then asked me if I would be willing to fly down there and sit with the members of the tribal government and that they had already made an arrangement, selected a time and date, site, which was on that reservation, and it was going to be, the meeting was going to be held in their tribal council hall. |
| [13,10] And so never having been involved in that part of the country and having no idea, I said "OK I'll do what I can," but I also, because of my previous experience, with school systems and negotiating needs of students and my previous, my growing experience in the area of Indian education, knew that there were some assurances that I needed if I was going to operate in the mode that they were asking me to operate. So I asked the director flat out, "OK, now if, if I go down there and do this for the group, I'd be glad to do that, but I need to be able to be given the, be given the power to make some decisions that may or may not satisfy the crew or you. But if you're intent is to get the segments out, so that we can show them on national television, then I think, I might be able to do that, but I need to be given the freedom to make decisions that I know I might have to make." And he said, "No problem. You do what you need to do." We had already viewed segments, film clips of what was being produced at that particular point in time and it was very good. It was a very good script and was turning out very, very well. |
| [13,11] And so I never met this crew chief, other than in a training session, but we didn't spend a lot of time getting to know each other in those training sessions, and so I said "OK, have him pick me up at the airport on such a such a date." And so I flew down. He picked me up, and soon as I got into the van, with two or three other members of his production crew, he started sharing with me, what was wrong, what was wrong with the, in the situation. He was focusing primarily what was wrong with "those people" out there that he was trying to work with. And he was also sharing with me, you know, his experiences in terms of trying to negotiate. But I found that he wasn't talking about negotiating: he was in a more, kind of "tell 'em what to do" kind of mode. And it was obvious to me, almost, what the problem was before I talked to anybody at the tribal council. And so I listened and we got the tribal council hall. |
| [13,12] And we walked in of the front door of this beautiful old tribal council and there was, the tribal council had, oh maybe fifteen, twenty members on it, representing the various groups that they represented on their reservation. And a lady got up from the table and she came back and she saw us come in, and she came back and asked if I was Mr. Jimenez, and I said yes I was, representing WWTW, and I was here to fulfill the tribal council's request for an audience with representatives from the agency. And so she said to me, "Well they're they've got just one more bit of business that they need to take care of, and then I'll come back and get you, take you up there." And the publishing, the production crew chief, who was constantly haranguing me with his concerns about the situation with the tribe, got very irate and he was so impatient. And wanted to say something to secretary about the fact that we're on a short schedule and we really need to get on their agenda as quickly as we possibly can. And I asked him, and I turned around and just said to him, "I'll take care of it, don't worry about it, that's my job." |
| [13,13] And so, he was terribly, terribly exasperated and so impatient, but I finally got him calmed down and we sat and waited and I listened to him some more, his assessment of what the problem was. And it all focused on it was those people who had the problem, not them. And the rest of the members of the production crew, they just listened, they just didn't say anything. We did have a couple of Native American staff on that production crew at that particular point in time, and just watching them react to this person, I could, just enforced for me what the problem was. And so I, we waited and the gal, the secretary came back, she was secretary to the tribal council, well actually she was an administrative assistant, she came back and said, "Ok, Mr. Jimenez they're ready for you now." So she took me up to the table. And the guy started to follow me, and she turned around and very politely said, "No, they would just, excuse me sir, they just want to talk to Mr. Jimenez at this particular point in time." And I could see the look of exasperation on his, but he did turn around and told, I told him I would, I asked him if he would go out to the van and wait with the production crew, and I would come out and let him know what happened. And so he said ok, very reluctantly. |
| [13,14] And I went up and sat down at the table and in so typical fashion, the first thing they did after I was introduced, they wanted to know my background. Said, "You're Native Amercian?" "Yes, I'm Native American and Hispanic." Well that's very familiar territory in the South West, to have a person who's of two cultures, mixed blood. But anyway, in fact I was very comfortable with that because it was no big issue with them. I've been in other tribal communities where it was an issue, ok? And then that's not being atypical, that's just very, very typical. But anyway, the chairman said, 'Well, we'd like to, we'd like to come up and just meet you personally." So, and again this is so typical to what I grew up, and experience that I grew up; they all stood up and the chairman walked me around the table and each of the members introduced themselves and I introduced myself. And they welcomed me and was glad to see me there, and we got back, we got through with that, welcoming part of it. And then he said, "Now before we get to the issues that you've been sent down here for he said, we have a number of the tribal members, including myself, who would like to know a little bit about your family, and about your tribal affiliation." |
| [13,15] And so, because they had heard, by then they had heard, were very aware of the fact that we were one of the tribes that was selected for Termination and had already passed through the process by then. And so they were very interested in the Termination process, but even more interested in my family, and my experiences growing up on that reservation. And I again, that's so typical, you know even today, the meetings that we attend where we have significant numbers of tribal representatives, that's a very typical process, take the time first to say, "Welcome. Here we are. We're glad to see you all, and even offer a prayer before we start every meeting." And that occurred there as well. And then finally, when they got, then they asked, and so I spent most of my time, just talking with them about my life experiences on the reservation. And they all also were also very interested in my educational background, and how I came to be on this national council, on how I came to part of the state department of education, and my teaching experiences and they were very interested in my experience going back to reservation to teach as well. So there were a number of very good questions that were asked about that experience, how I, and then they finally said "ok." |
| [13,16] They thanked me very, very much and then he said, "Now, the business at hand," and he says, "We need to know what you've been told by your people in Chicago, what the problem is." And so I said to them, that "very simply it appears that there were segments in the film that the production crew chief wanted to include, but that, where you had some questions about whether in fact you wanted to release those. And I'm here to reinforce for you again, the agreement that we had with you to begin with. You have the final say." And he said, "Well we've had difficulty explaining that to your production crew chief." And so, I said, "Well I kind of got a hint of that as we were driving in," I said. "But I'm here to, to share with you, that I have . . ." They asked me, in fact, "Are you going to be able to resolve this situation while you're here? Are we going, you have to report back? Is there a process that we're going to go through?" and that type of thing. I said, "Well," I said, "I have report back what the result of this meeting, but I've been given the authority to do what needs to be done in order to get the film, that's our biggest concern. And so, I'm here to tell you that, if you'll share with me specifically what it is that you're opposed to as far as what's going on to point in time, the activities that have taken place, then I can tell you what we can do." |
| [13,17] And so they shared with me, it all boiled down very simply to the fact that they had met with the production crew staff, they were very, the person who was assigned responsibility down to their tribes, I had to work with the production crew, had shared with the production crew, and had reminded them what was in that agreement. And the production crew chief, at that particular point in time, had elected to make his own decision as to how that would operate. And so he went ahead and filmed some segments and some material that he, he should not have. And so after I heard this story and, I was able to say right to the, to the tribal council, "There is no problem, from my perspective." And I said, "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to live by the agreement, and if there's, and again, which means very simply that if there are segments that we filmed that you don't want in that, that's your prerogative, it always has been. And so I'm here to tell you, we're going to live up to that agreement." And so they were just tickled to death to hear that. And they said, "Well what about the production crew?" And I said, "Well, that's my responsibility, and my director's responsibility." I said, "We'll take care of that part of it," I said. "But there shouldn't be any problems," I said. "I can't guarantee it, but there shouldn't be any problems after I meet with the production crew chief." |
| [13,18] And I also had time to visit with the director of the project in Chicago. And I said, "I'll share with those people what I just shared with you, that we're going to live by the agreement and we'll do. We'll take your recommendation and fulfill your recommendations. If we, I said if we do that, can we get the segment, 'cause we think that this is a very good film. And it's a story that needs to be told, regarding the impacts of Desegregation on a tribal community and a tribal school system." And he said, "Oh that's fine." He said, "We're very comfortable, we're very comfortable with that. Which means very simply, that if the station doesn't live up to it's agreement, then you probably won't get the film" (laughs). And I said that "I understand that." And so again, they took the time to, to thank me personally, individually and walked the table again, walked around the table again. And they thanked me, shook my hand, wished me a good trip on the way back and then also, wanted me share the production crew chief, the production staff, not so much the chief, as the staff, that they, they were very pleased with the manner which they were doing their work down there, at that particular . . . It seemed, appeared to boil down to just one person, at that particular point in time. |
| [13,19] So I left, and went out. On the way back to the airport - I had a flight out of there just almost that same day - I informed the production crew chief of the agreement that I had made with the tribal council. And of course, I listened to, to a haranguing tirade all the way (laughs), about my power, what power I had, or didn't have, in his perception. And I told him, I said, "You know, on second thought, instead of going to the airport, let's go to your office." And so we went to the office, and I said, "Now you need to call Mr. So and So in Chicago and share your concerns with him right now, and hopefully we'll catch him in his office." Well I knew we would be able to catch him in his office, 'cause he always told my other director that he would be in the office all day just to hear about the decisions that were made down there and this was the National Advisory Board, was a group of about twenty-five national renowned educators, professional educators, community leaders from the various multi-ethnic communities, and so they carry, you know, they were people well known in the area of Desegregation, and they were powerful people in the area of Desegregation, and, they were, they were very adamant about the process - how the process was developed in order to protect the community, but at the same time, hope to come up with something to support what we all did find as a very critical presentation for the national audience, in this particular area. |
| [13,20] And so, we went back to the office, and he called and he immediately started telling his side of the story, which was his typical mode of operation, over the phone. And then all of sudden, he just stopped. And all I could hear from him, was, "Yes, sir. I understand completely sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, yes I will do that. Yes sir." And I don't know what was said to him, but anyway, he said, he now, that "He would like to talk to you Mr. Jimenez." And so I got on the phone and he said, "Did, were you able to resolve the situation? Are we going to be able to get that film out of there?" And I said, at this particular point in time, this is what I promised, and he said "That's no problem." and he said, "And I just informed the production crew chief, that any decision that you make, we're going to live by at the television station within the Advisory Council." And so that was that. But the point, the point I was trying to make, as it relates to my, to my reading of that little poem: these were people I had never met before. I had no idea of the way that they lived, their personal experience. I had a general idea, but really no specific idea. But what I found most interesting, was something that has stayed with me over the years, is that I felt completely at home within that setting, because I was dealing with people who were dealing with me in the level, at a level that I had always been dealt with while I was living within my own community. |
| [13,21] And had to do with respect, respect for who you are and what, who you represent and where you come from, and you can't find that out unless you take the time, like they did, to say "Who are you?" And, not so much, "Why are you here?" but you know, because they had a pretty good idea why I was there, but they wanted to know who I was. And they, I think that's very typical, the need for us to share with each other, in an attempt to set an atmosphere of cooperation, of sensitivity to each other, respect for our particular view point. And over the years, I've, it took me back many, many years, that experience which occurred in the early '70's took me back many, many years, to my early years on the reservation, growing up with elders, and my own particular point in community. That was reinforced again after I left that situation. I stayed with that National Advisory Council for about seven years. It was a good group, I learned so much, not only Native American needs in other spaces, but also the needs of other communities, who were suffering a dislocation from the school systems, from the teaching processes and procedures and methodologies. And so it was an experience that I'll never, never forget. |
| [13,22] I had another similar experience like that, as, when I was a part of that experience, that education Department of Education experience when I was asked to go to Rapid City, South Dakota, and that was a completely different situation on the Navajo, at Sells, Arizona, on the reservation there, it was very comfortable for me to be within that reservation setting again, to be within that, that, that atmosphere, social gathering atmosphere that was so typical to my personal experiences. Rapid City was a little different area, was in a metropolitan area. We met in the school district office. And there was delegation of about six tribal people out of the Pine Ridge Reservation, and they were trying to negotiate equal educational opportunities for their Native American youngsters, which was the predominant theme in education across the country, that, which resulted all the civil rights activity, and now we were in the equal educational opportunity phase. And we were trying to provide equal educational opportunity for ethnic minority children initially during that particular phase. And so the tribal community had, was trying to work with the local school district and I, they were not having much success. They were, they were struggling with the, with the collaborative effort that they were trying, that they were trying to become involved in in order to resolve some of the issues within the Rapid City School District. |
| [13,23] So my agency sent me back there and I don't even recall, I don't remember where they, who they got the call from. But anyway, I wound up back there in Rapid City South Dakota, meeting in the public school room. And the superintendent of the local school district and his staff was seated on one side of the table and the tribal representatives were seated on the other side of the table, and there were media that were involved in crowd, sitting there in the crowd also. And the superintendent, of course, started off the meeting describing what the problems were from their perspective, again. And so, when he finished, he asked if there was any questions, well of course, I had a question, so I turned to the, I said, "I would really like to hear the tribal perspective as to, not only what they see as their concern, but also what they see as how we might resolve this situation." And so the super said, "Oh, that's a good idea." So, so the tribal representative, the chief tribal representative, I think it was a member of the council, got up and shared, you know, the efforts that they had made, in trying to resolve their concerns and how unsuccessful they had been. And he also shared why he thought they were unsuccessful, it had a lot to do with, the lack of understanding of what meaningful participation meant. |
| [13,24] The school district wanted to collaborate but they didn't understand the collaboration process, particularly as it related to, and this is my assessment, particularly as it related to meaningful participation, meaningful collaboration, and how that occurs. And so, I, fortunately, I had with me a little, a little overhead, a little overhead transparencies that I used in trying to share with them what I had learned about meaningful participation, and how that has to be reflected in a school process that would provide for meaningful participation of the communities and their students. And so I asked if there was an overhead, well, I knew there was one, and I can see it. And asked if I would, if I could use that, and so I just shared with the school district people and tribal people my perspective in terms of what we had to do in our state in order to bring the communities into a really true collaborative effort in trying to resolve our concerns. It was a very simple presentation, but the, not quite sure yet whether I could see, I could see within the, within the school staff's individuals who understood what I was saying, but I also could see some individuals who were in an attitude, in an attitudinal level that would allow them to consider what I was saying. |
| [13,25] But the tribal people reinforced what I was saying, "Yes, this is what we're talking about, if you really want us to participate, you know, there are things that have to occur before we're going to feel comfortable enough to respond to your efforts to help us out." And it struck me also, that there obviously was a long discourse, had been a long discourse over the years, the weeks, the months before this particular meeting, that led to this meeting. But I was, again, I was not surprised, but at the same time, it was reinforcing to see the tribal representatives so intent on preserving the integrity of the public school officials. And, but, and because not a lot of the tribal, not a lot of the school board representatives of the school district people were given an opportunity to share their feelings, I had to assume that there some of those people that understood what the tribal people were saying. And I could just tell by the look on their faces and the way they responded to what the tribal people were saying. But in any event, we left that meeting with an agreement that there, there was critical need for the school district people to sit down with the tribal people. And I also made a recommendation that they take the time also, on occasion to go out to the tribal council area, to the reservation area and meet with them there. |
| [13,26] And the tribal people, when we were all through again, thanked me, very similar to the Sells, Arizona, got up and personally come up, shook my hand, and thanked me, taking the opportunity to come out there. Before they left, they said, "Do you have time to meet with us for just a little while?" I said, "Yeah I do." I said, "I'm not leaving until tomorrow morning." And they said, "Well, can we invite you out for coffee and the, if you want to eat something, we'll buy you some dinner." And I said, "Sure." So we broke up and I, the school district personnel thanked me for coming out, and then the, and I also shared with the school district what we trying to do in the state of Oregon with the setting up this more meaningful relationship with the tribes in our state, and how we were going about that, the development of a State Indian Education Association. And the, willingness of some of the school district in the state to begin the development of mutual memorandums of agreement, whereby tribal concerns would be identified, within the school process, the methodologies, practices, teaching practices, and review those and come up with some new ideas as to how those might be modified, to better in, in a matter that would encourage, and assist tribal people, getting their kids in school and keeping them there and getting them graduated, out of the public school systems, and, in preparation for post-secondary experiences. |
| [13,27] All of the post-secondary effort in our state, came maybe ten years later than that, 'cause initially there, we were, tribal people were concerned with getting things started at K-12, and then, about ten years, maybe fifteen years later, there was, although there were spotted efforts, individual efforts to initiate post-secondary interest among their students, the really strong effort didn't come, in our state, until fifteen years later, with the exception of those individual tribes that, that were involved, at that particular point in time. But anyway, so I went out and sat down with the Rapid City, with the parents from their, from the reservation community, Pine Ridge Reservation community. and had the same similar experience I had in Sells, Arizona, them sharing, wanting to know about my family, wanting to know about my experiences, and they wanted to know if I was married, if I had any children, and what was happening and that type of thing, and the Termination, they were also interested in Termination experience. I sat down for them, I bet you, about two or three hours, I don't even remember where we were, in town at that particular point in time. and then I, and then they thanked me, and then I flew back the next morning. |
| [13,28] So, again, it all had to do with, again it all had to do with personal relationships and the way people deal with people, and it was, again I found it very easy to be amongst those people there, as I did in Sells, Arizona. And then, you know we look at, we, Indian people for the most part, are great kidders, they're great teasers. and it was a long, because I had been away from my home, I had forgotten that. and it was nice to amongst people who could kid you, and who, and it was kidding, it was not criticizing, but in some cases you had to make sure you were hearing what they were saying to you, because in some cases they were trying to tell you something. and in order for you to see, you need to be very sensitive. and that was the kind of thing that we grew up with, you know. my mom, kidded with us a lot, my aunt kidded with us a lot, but the same time, there was something that they were trying to tell you. sometimes it was nothing more than just having fun, ok? But sometimes in teaching situations, the, there was generally a teaching process going on at the same time, but Indian people are just great kidders. They're just great teasers, and . . . Bob Tom is one of the best that I know in that particular area: he's a great kidder and a great teaser, and he, but you need to listen to what he's trying to tell you, and you need to take out, he has a lot of little stories. You need to listen to those stories, because somewhere in there, more often than not, there's a little, there's something that he's trying to tell you. |
| [13,29] And there was a lot that I had relearn, having left the reservation and been away from Indian people for so long. and then eventually moving back to serving the communities across the state. There was a lot that I had to relearn. and that was, that was something. that was an example of that type of thing, is that, they won't right, come right out; there are very few Indian people that I know that will come right out and criticize you and point their finger at you and swear at you, call you a name, or so forth. It happens occasionally, but the majority of the people that I've worked with, that doesn't happen, you know. They're always so sensitive to the need to respect each other, ok?, to accept you for who you are, and what you bring, and there's always a need amongst those people to find out who you are. |
| [13,30] They'll . . . and this is something that I've always told teachers: in your assessment of your students' needs, there's another part of the assessment, that's even more critical that I learned from a couple of key administrators that I worked with, who said, who taught us that lesson very simply . . . I can remember, this one junior high administrator saying that, there's a, and the other administrator that I knew was an elementary school, my first elementary school principal who said, basically the same kind of thing: there's so much to be learned by getting to know your students away from the classroom. And the junior high administrator even went so far as to say, "I expect, I am in the halls regularly, particularly in between classes, I except to see you at your door, you know, in between classes. I expect you to be in your room at least thirty minutes before your class starts in the morning, I expect to see you in your room for at least thirty minutes at the end of the school day, in your room, available with your door open for students." And that's the kind of thing, that I learned from those kind, from those people, is that there's so much to learn. You can't, you really can't complete your assessment, your educational assessment, you academic assessment, without including that portion of it, finding out who your students are, who really are. and you can't do that unless you take the time to be with them, and amongst them, and then give them an opportunity to come in. |
| [13,31] That's why, hence, the open door, you know? Be available to them, because there a lot of students that, for one reason or another won't take the time to come in to your classroom, but if you stop them outside of the classroom as they came into the door, or if you spoke to them in the hallway, they might choose that point to share their needs with you. and it's, and it was something that I had forgotten. I had to relearn that because that was very typical of growing up in a tribal community, is that, I have remind people that sometimes, well teachers in particularly, but I also have to remind parents of that. you really need to take the time to know who your child, what your child, who your child is. and what it is that your child's expectations are. And you also need to afford them the opportunity to share things with you on a regular basis, 'cause if you can't develop that sharing, that sharing period for them, then there a lot of things that are going to go unsaid, a lot of critical things that you probably need to know about. But you haven't taken the time to offer that opportunity for them, and teachers are . . . And I so I spent a lot of time talking to teachers about how critical that particular kind of assessment plays. And then . . . |
| [13,32] So those are two specific experiences that I'm talking about really where, that forced me into a relearning situation about what we believed in as Native Peoples growing up on the reservation. Of course, the reservation experiences, you will know, has created, a lot of adjustment on our part, being forced on reservations, being dislocated from our natural environment, being relocated, being placed on our reserves over the years with all the expectations that were so non-traditional that we were asked to respond to, unquestionably, and then eventual loss of those critical parts of our culture, that were responsible for our makeup, responsible for assisting us in growing up and becoming whole people. Dislocations that involved, you know, the forcing, forcing the loss of language, the Native language. And now, I just get, I'm just amazed by all the efforts that we're currently making to preserve languages, bilingual languages, multilingual languages. It's alright now, to, the roots approach to education, you know, it's alright now for people to go back and find out who they are, and that type of thing. |
| [13,33] And most people who have not been around Indian people, or most people, and there are so many that haven't been made aware and sensitive to the experience of tribal communities, in that process, of dislocation, relocation, reservation and so forth, they have so many misperceptions about tribal people, and it's, I can't point my fingers and criticize teachers for not knowing that; it's just a part of the way the process has developed over the years. It's just been within the last, well since the 60's when the civil rights movement began, that we've, that we're beginning to spend more and more time learning about the best avenues of approach in preparing our youngsters to live the kind of life, in fact, we're to the point now where it's alright now for us to chose the kind of life that we live, that the melting pot assimilation theory, you know, isn't the necessarily the way to go, for a lot of us, that there are alternative means to reach the same end. And that's the most refreshing thing that I've seen. But it comes and goes, you know. It's always been cyclical in nature but when you get through with the cycle, in my experience we can look back now and see that great changes have been made and some really positive things have occurred as it relates to Indian education. |
| [13,34] I see that in our state, because of my involvement that started back in the '70's, working with the State Department of Education and, and I've been able to spend a lot of time with people who helped in the development of that movement, in our state. I talk about the Sells, Arizona, and the Rapid City experience and I, as the director of the Title, as the director of the Title Four Indian education programming at the State Department of Education which came two years later, after the civil rights experience, because we weren't, the needs of Native youngsters, hadn't been brought into focus, two years earlier, all of sudden with the expanding involvement of educational, in the area providing multicultural and equal educational opportunity, the Native American youngsters were, needs of Native American communities were finally brought to the forefront. And so, and then the federal government made money available in the form, of what they refer to as Federal Forefront Title Four Funding, Indian Education Funds, and states were eligible, and school districts were eligible to apply for those funds and to develop supplementary programs to support their existing programs that would hopefully assist tribal communities in meeting, in identifying and meeting their needs as it relates to education of their youngsters. |
| [13,35] And they were minimal programs to begin with, they were short focused programs, but it was a start. And that reinforces what I just shared with you in terms of it's been a long road, but, cyclical. But at the same time when you take a look at when we started back in 1973, 1974, '72, and where we are now, we've come a long ways, although, I'm sure that there are a number of tribal people that would disagree with me, depending upon where you live in the state. One of my first jobs as a state department specialist, Indian Education, and of course that was new experience for me, I had no, I was an Indian person who was an educated Indian person who grew up on the reservation, but really had, who developed some ideas of his own as it relates to multicultural education. I was able to identify that by then, that the needs of Indian children were very similar to what we were saying about the needs of Black children, Asian children and Hispanic children. And so I had a sense of where the systems had to go, and the school districts had to go, so, my job was to assess the needs of the state. And so that meant in order for me, to follow even my own advice, I had to go out to, and listen. |
| [13,36] And that's another characteristic of tribal communities, that I had relearn, is that you, when you enter in a learning situation or a collaborative effort, or community meetings and so forth, I was taught very, very early and had to relearn that the first thing that you had to do was you had to sit and you had to listen, very, very closely. And if you want to say something, you had to wait until such point in time that you clearly understood what was going on, ok? And so that, when you asked a question, the question would have more meaning to it, at that particular point in time. And the only way you could do was to sit and listen and take in everything that you've heard and, of course, I was always encouraged to do that by my mother and my aunt and my grandmother and my, and so forth, and in general council hall for example. |
| [13,37] This occurred even after I was married and I took Lois back and the general council meetings were going on and 'cause I was serving as, on one of the committees for the tribal council there during their last years. but we sat, Lois sat in between my aunt, and my mother and I sat on the other side. and they interpreted for us what was going on, particularly at those points in time in general council sessions when those few people that could still speak the language and get to the mike, and start, and start haranguing tribal leaders at the general council hall in their native language, or they just get up to try to make a point, that they wanted to make a point in their own language. And so, we relied upon my mother and my aunt to tell us what was going on, and every so often, this was serious business but every so often, everybody would break up and laugh and have a good, have a good laugh, and we'd ask what was happening and my mother and my aunt would say, well you don't need to hear that (laughs). And the speaker's obviously were lapsing into telling jokes or calling people by names . . . But anyway, so I had relearn a lot of that, you know. |
| [13,38] So in accessing the needs of the tribal communities in this state, I had to spend a lot of time with the tribal leaders on this side of the mountain, that meant with tribal leaders who was back in their tribal government, was a new experience for them, because they had been terminated. So, I learned at that particular point in time, that the majority of the tribes on this side of the mountain, over a hundred of them, tribes and triblets, at one time, I had learn their history, understand why they were only two reservations on this side of the mountain, the Grand Ronde and the Siletz. And so it behooved me to become an extremely good listener and harken back to those days when I was counseled to do that. And so in those trips into those communities I can remember, at Siletz, a couple of individuals, two or three individuals who were the elders of their community and who were speaking on behalf of their community and field of education that I met with, and they had a Title Four grant in their local school district, and so I went down and sat with them. I have to laugh now when I go to the Siletz community, 'cause the little building that we sat in, was a little A-frame shed, and that they were conducting tribal business in it at that particular point in time, and I look at their brand new tribal administration buildings and I, their tribal council hall, and I just have to kind of smile about that, but yet it's refreshing, it's a real refreshing to see that. Like the Grand Ronde: I go now to see their brand new education facility, and it's really something to see. |
| [13,39] But anyway, so here I was at Siletz and there I was, I went to Coos Bay and sat down with the Coquille tribal representatives and Umqua, Lower Umqua and Siuslaw representatives and their community, the Grand Ronde community people, they also were similar experience, they used to meet in a little tiny building that's since been revised, or modified and restructured and it was a little tiny building also, where they were conducting their tribal business. And then, I had to meet with, Portland community representatives 'cause they had a Title Four grant also, and that, of course, back on this side of the mountain I met with people, a lot of my own community, at Klamath, I met with people at Pendleton, the Umatilla Reservation, Warm Springs community, the Burns Piute Reservation. And I was so fortunate that I ran into people, who were still demonstrating characteristics of that old tradition, traditional way of dealing with people. and it's always, and the thing that always comes, sticks out most in my mind, it all had to respect, again, and respecting who you are, from whence you come. |
| [13,40] And it's interesting today talking to college representatives in my, tenure with the Oregon Indian Coalition on Post Secondary Education, that I had to learn, I had to learn that same thing, and develop a style, that was based upon the traditional way of doing things in order to convince the people within the institutions of where we wanted it to go, what we wanted to do. But any event, most of those people, that I met with back in the early '70's in these various communities, were so unique and so, it was so easy for me to meet with them because they were, they reminded me, took me back so many years to the people that I grew up with: our leaders, our elders. And unfortunately, I wish I could say that's carried forward, but being no different than most other cultural units, I think the thing that's created the most promise for us, and there's a difference between this side of the mountain and the west, the east side of the mountain, and the west side of the mountain, is that those communities, that have never had to deal with a loss of their reservation, the loss of their sacred landscape, even the Burns Piute people, with their little tiny (?) over there, I still run into that, I still run into that, and it's really refreshing, and they're very successful in negotiating. |
| [13,41] These people on this side of the mountain, who had that dislocated for one reason or another, had to relearn it themselves, like I did, have come so far, have come so far, and it's really pleasant to be back and see them operating now. And it's almost, we've gone back a lot of years, and at one time, it was illegal for us to do, now it's ok for us to do that, to practice our old ways, those things that we relied on to grow as Indian people. |
| [13,42] Linc Kesler: Thank you. |
| [13,43] Morrie Jimenez: You bet. |
|
Session 14 |
| [14,1] Linc Kesler: . . . Morrie Jimenez again, and what's it going to be today, Morrie? |
| [14,2] Morrie Jimenez: Well, I think what I'd like to do is talk about is all those factors and influences in my life that brought me to where I am today. And I want to talk about the cultural influences, the social influences, and the spiritual influence that helped in my overall growth and development through the years. Because all of that directly relates to what it is that we're talking about, because it involves the experiences of one Klamath tribal person in the growth process, from reservation based individual to an assimilated individual, and a long trek back to a more cultural, social base, where I recapture a lot of those things that I grew up with, that were responsible for my personal development. And so, I'm going to be talking today, I want to talk today about those factors, those influencing factors. And I'll start by talking about, of course, obviously the fact that I came off the reservation and was born in 1933 on the Klamath Indian Reservation, located in south central Oregon, and which had been in existence since the Treaty of 1864 with the federal government. |
| [14,3] And 1933 was also significant in the fact that, as so many people already realized, this was an era of tough economic times in the United States, what with the Depression and then the movement from the Depression back to positive economic growth and social development. And so I want to talk a little about the impacts of that particular era on us as a family. And growing up on that reservation and being born on that reservation, my initial influences involved my nuclear family, my extended family, and the traditions and customs and activities and experiences of being, growing up in a reservation culture, a reservation community, and, which impacted us in all the various phases of cultural development. It impacted our diet, it impacted our dress to a certain extent, although by the time that I came along, there was so little left of the traditional dress style, of the former reservation community. It affected our language capacities, it affected our values, and our, affected our beliefs. And of course, the base influence, the foundational influence involved our nuclear family. |
| [14,4] My mother grew up on the reservation even before I did, in another generation. In a completely different environmental setting, because there was, there were so much of the cultural base of the Native American cultural base, the Klamath cultural base that she grew up in, and that they still practice as much as they possibly could, even in face of government attempts to move us towards a more assimilated base. There were still so much of the culture. By the time we came along, and I came along, a lot of that had already begun disappearing significantly, and so that there were just remnants of our traditional culture that we still practiced. And because cultures related to social development at the same time, it affected also our social development, because where we grew up, where my mother grew up, with an educational base and an educational foundation that included teachings from the elders, and also included boarding school experience and eventually public school experience. When we came along, and I came along, of course, most, I had no exposure to that traditional teaching that went on previous to that. Other than what was the remnants of cultural practice and cultural tradition. |
| [14,5] I'm talking about hunting skills. I'm talking about preservation skills of deer meat and elk meat and fish. And gathering and preservation of former natural foods in our community that we relied on for our survival. I'm talking what were the remnants of a spiritual belief system: the old Indian Shaker Church that still existed on the reservation when I grew up. It was being slowly replaced by a Christian dogma. And initially the Methodist Christian dogma, eventually other dogmas that came: the Catholic dogma, the Protestant, the other Protestant churches who slowly but surely moved onto the reservation system. And then of course, coupled with the fact that the traditional religious belief and practices system, we were being discouraged from participating in that as a means primarily of moving us quicker into a more assimilated state. And so that's what I grew up, that's the milieu that I grew up in: a disappearing traditional way of living, a Native American way of living and a transfer a more assimilated cultural lifestyle. And that created, that was, so there was a lot of learning that we went through and there was a lot of movement away from the old traditional beliefs and, which provided our cultural foundation. |
| [14,6] But still, being on the reservation, being isolated, more or less isolated, from the rest of the state, and the rest of the county, we still continued to practice as much of those cultural lifestyles as we . . . And the, we had reached a state eventually where the tribal government had almost given, the Bureau of Indian Affairs had almost given up on their attempts to make us more non-Indian, than we were Indian at one time. At one time, there was a great effort to make us farmers. And then eventually they kind of gave up on that. There was more, there were more attempts to make us better educated. And there were more attempts by non-Indian populations and the federal government to move toward an adoption of a Christian belief system. And but eventually we had reached a point where they were content to let us practice as much of what was left, and as long as we, in their estimation, appeared to be making progress towards the assimilation focus and assimilation goals. |
| [14,7] But, so on the reservation, as long as I was on the reservation, I was exposed to what was left of our traditional way of doing things, involving hunting, involving fishing, involving gathering, involving spiritual practice. The old Indian Shaker Church was still in existence then and it was still fairly strong in the community. But it was slowly, the Methodist Church was slowly making a place in the community. The Catholic had established a base in the community. The various Pentecostal and Apostolic churches began making, having influence on our reservation. And so because there was no support from the government for the, very little support for us sustaining the old traditional beliefs, the tribal populations eventually moving into those sects, into those other dogmas. But my family, and my mother and my aunt and my grandmother were still practicing the, a combination of both Christian dogma and also the old Indian Shaker Church. And me and my brothers and my sisters still had exposure to that old belief system. It influenced me, and in talking to my brothers and sisters, it had long-term influence on them also, because we remembered a lot of what went on in that old belief system. |
| [14,8] And it was a very close spiritual experience that we practiced within that old Shaker religion. We had a large church that was built like a Long House, and in fact it was a Long House. And the interior of the church was a very simple structure on the inside, and was a, very simply appointed with benches. We had one, we had a bench that circled the perimeter of the inside of the church. There was no central seating system, like you'll find in most of the traditional churches today. The seating occurred around the perimeter of the church on a bench. And then under the bench, under that major bench, of course, were constructed several small, individual benches that fit underneath that bench. And then later on in the, during the healing part of the ceremony and rites, those little benches would be pulled out into the middle of the floor so that those who were asking for help, spiritual help, then would be, occupy the center part of the floor, where most of the faith healing practice took place, by the elders of the church. |
| [14,9] And so, the when you came into the church, there was an altar at the front of the church, and on the altar there was a Bible, there was a cross on the wall behind the altar. And the sconces alongside of the, we had tall, long church windows around the perimeter also of that church. And then with the, between each of those window frames, there were sconces, candle sconces, that were constructed with a small white cross background and a platform to support that candles. And they were lit during the service. And I found out later, that the Bible and altar and the crucifix on the wall and the crucifix sconces were all developed primarily to meet the federal government need to ensure that, that we were slowly but surely moving into a more assimilated religious belief system. And but the practice itself, the traditional practice itself, was traditional based. Very similar to what I've observed since then in other communities: at Warm Springs, and at Umatilla, in other communities where I've been, in terms, of how they practiced their traditional belief system and where bells and drums and sticks were utilized in producing a beat. What we had moved into, the utilization of hand bells. |
| [14,10] And so, the elders, the people responsible for conducting the services, were divided into two groups of elders. Generally males were responsible for handling the bells, and they all had a pair of bells about the same size. Individual, they both, the individual bell ringers had two bells. And generally were the same size, and they varied from very small bells, to middle size bells, to very large bells. And I can remember that I was always impressed by those people who handled the biggest hand bells, 'cause they were large bells. I was always impressed because of the duration of the service that went on and the amount of time that they spent on the floor dancing in unison to peel of the bells. I was just amazed at their stamina as how they were able to do that, because I had picked up those bells as a youngster, and of course as a youngster they were much heavier than I imagined. |
| [14,11] And then the service always opened with prayers at the front of the church with the male and of course, the other half of the group were female tribal members, tribal elders. And you worked yourself into becoming a part of that elder, spiritual leadership basis. And so my mother was an elder within that, my aunt was also an elder who participated as one of that leadership group, my grandmother previously had been a part, been one of those. But she had, when, by the time that we came along, she had reached an age where it was, she couldn't do that as much as she used to; she just didn't have the stamina or the strength to do that, but she still participated in that system. |
| [14,12] And they started at the front of the church, and with prayers, facing the altar. They had a little practice of saying their prayers and with their bells turning in unison, which again reflects that circle belief system about acknowledging an individual's presence, or the community's presence in front of their Creator in, and also acknowledge the community who was in there. And so that, all the prayers went to The Creator and went out away from that building across the land, across the reservation. And so that, they were communicating with their, not only with the people in that church, but they were communicating with the others across that church. Typical prayers of blessing for the people. And then once they had their opening prayers and they sang their opening songs, then the next step in that process was to go around and welcome all of the people into the building. And the elders did that with the women and their candles; they carried candles, individual candles. It would then progress in unison, with the bell ringing and the singing that went on, and old traditional chanting that went on in the native language. |
| [14,13] And they, with the ladies in the lead and the men following single file behind them, then they would circle the perimeter. And at that time, everybody stood up, all the children got down on the floor and everybody paid attention as they came around. And the elders would, the women would take their hands like this, as a part of the blessing process. And the significance of the candle, of course, was that it was their tie; it was their tie to The Creator. And that, everything that they did was transmitted from the inside of the building through that candle flame, and to The Creator. So that they would bless everybody around there. And you stood up and you held up one hand, like this, and for the smaller children you held them in place and you held up their hand as they came around also. And each of the elders, even including the bell ringers would do it with the tips of their fingers, 'cause they were ringing bells. When the circle, the inside of the church and the ladies would warm their hands with the light and then touch everybody's hand as they went around. And then the men would touch everybody's hands when they went around. And they, that was the opening, that was the welcome. That was the inclusionary process that said we're all hear together doing exactly the same thing, offering our thanks and offering our blessing to our Creators. |
| [14,14] And they would get to the front, and there was, there was another tradition that they and practice that they went through up there again, involving prayers in place, still singing and dancing and ringing of the bells and finally stopping of the bell ringing. And then one of the elder ladies then would offer final prayers and opening prayers for everybody. And they would, after every portion of prayers, then they would, the bells would ring once or twice or three times. And they would turn in unison and again it was a traditional practice. Again, a welcoming and opening ceremony, and making sure that everybody understood that this was an inclusionary process. That wasn't, this wasn't just our elders up there, it was the whole, it was everybody that was in there, and outside of that church building, and the church building too, 'cause we were always reminded that we needed to be constantly aware of the presence, the spiritual ties that existed between us as Indian people and as people practicing our religion. |
| [14,15] And so after that opening then there would be comments would be made. There would, an individual elder would get up, or somebody from the community could get up from the people in the church, would get up and offer some thanks. And a lot of people get up and say, "I want to thank you for this," and "I want to thank you for that," and "I think we should be thankful for this," and offer blessings for family members that are ill, or offer blessings, other kinds of blessings for the community, for the tribe. And then eventually they would get to the portion where the faith healing portion would begin. And then at that point, an elder would make a call and open the floor to anybody who felt that they would like to be, to be treated, spiritually treated. |
| [14,16] And so, the people who, who decided they wanted to do that, would take their bench and if, or a family member would help them with the bench to get out in the middle of the floor. They would align themselves in rows in the middle of the floor. And then from that point on to the end of the service it was just a matter of the elders, with the, with bell ringers on the perimeter in that front part of the church where this process was going on. The women elders, the female elders would take their candles, and singing and dancing, and then go through into each individual who decided that they wanted to be helped. They wanted some, they wanted to be treated, and with their candles and their singing and their dancing, and their incantations in their traditional language, would treat each individual, very simply by taking their hands and taking the healing part of the flame, like this, and then not touching the body, more often than not, but just barely touching the body in the areas where the people felt they had the greatest need: they had a sore shoulder, bad back, a sore arm, a leg, headaches, that type of thing. |
| [14,17] And so, the people they, the faith healers, the ladies then would ah . . . and they would do this for hours at a time; or until such time as an individual felt better and felt that they had gained something from the experience. And they would take their chair, they would take their bench and move off back to the side, back to the perimeter. And eventually the floor would be cleared. And once the floor would be cleared and everybody would be treated, then it was a matter to go back, again, to the front of the church and offer closing prayers on behalf of the people. And announcements would then be made, including the one that, that food had been prepared, food was ready in the cookhouse, 'cause we had an adjourning cookhouse in the, just across the parking lot. And that, everybody was, everybody was invited and it wasn't going to cost you anything; it was just a traditional part. |
| [14,18] And then that still goes on today with the Powwows; when you go to Powwows, sponsored by tribal groups, it's, the feeding of the population is a responsibility. Making sure that somebody gets something to eat, and I don't know of a single Powwow situation where I've gone to where you bought your own, other than the hawkers that are on the side, selling their wares behind the Powwow area. Which had become a traditional part of Powwows now too, is to open it up to hawkers, of either bead work, or blankets, or food, or anything else. But in the traditional spiritual celebrations or other kinds of celebrations on the reservation, all guests were always invited, and all guests you didn't charge them for that service: it was a part of our ways, the giving part of our belief system. And so they would close the service with final prayers. And then they would make one final trip around the perimeter and saying something like, "thank you very much for coming," "don't forget to come back," "don't forget to go out and eat something," and that type of thing. And then they would have, they'd make their, touch everybody's hands again, go back to the front of the church. And then say final prayers; and then the candles would extinguished on the sconces and on the altar. |
| [14,19] And then it would just a matter then of just visiting. And that went on for a long, long while: just staying in the church and visiting and talking, walking across the hall, seeing people, seeing family, and telling stories, and then eventually an announcement would come in the doorway that the dinner was now ready, or lunch was now ready. And you would go, 'cause sometimes they would have morning services. And then they would have lunch and they'd go back for afternoon services. Then they would have dinner. And then a real long day included all of those things, and then you would sometimes, then they might hold another service, another healing service at night, because of the people who were working, who couldn't make it during the daytime. And this happened generally on Sundays; we had a reached a point where we were acknowledging the non-Indian attempt to make sure we were moving in, to assimilated fashion. And so, sometimes with that all-day services and we'd go late into the night, and even after mid-night, depending upon how many people required treatment. |
| [14,20] And so, that had a great deal of influence on my brothers and sisters and I, and I was surprised in visiting with my other brother, my younger brother, one of my younger brothers, that he remembered that, he still remembered that, 'cause I was under the impression, because I was gone for so long, that he may not have remembered that. But I finally had to recall myself, that the, there was still remnants of that old religious belief system and practice that still existed after I left, because I left the reservation and there was so much that was still going on, that I had assumed because Termination also occurred while I was gone, that I had assumed had disappeared, and in my re-learning process was surprised to find out a lot of that went on for a long, long time. A lot of it no longer exists today, but during that period of time that I had left, and my brothers and sisters were still growing up, there was still a lot that, a lot of that was being practiced. And what was taught in that old Shaker Church was very common in terms of what was being taught on a daily basis, while you were working in the fields and helping with harvesting, when you were hunting together, when you were gathering together. |
| [14,21] It was just an extension of everyday lessons that were taught to us, but they had a great deal more meaning, and for me individually, I know other people as well, most of us who participated in that old traditional belief system remembered that, and how, what an influence it had, what an impact it had on us, in terms of what a close experience that was, in terms of communal, communal experience that was. And the fact that you were together, you were practicing a religion together, you were visiting, you were talking, you were sharing stories, and at the same time, you were learning lessons, at the same time, and very important lessons, because we all practice responsibility to each other. And there was a, it was all done in a respectful manner, but the responsibility, of the responsibility aspects of teaching responsibility, began at a very early age. Everybody had a role to play and that. And of course, since then I've learned that's, that's, has one been of the keys to Native American survival over the years, is they all, they were all relying on each other, they all share. They all had accepted the responsibility for themselves and for their family and for their community. |
| [14,22] And so, an example of that within that experience, that church experience, was that there was wood to be brought in to make sure that the old hundred gallon barrel at the back, which served as our stove, had been manufactured as a stove, that we always had wood there. So there was a responsibility that was assigned, for young people to make sure that wood was there. There was responsibility for people to go out and help with the cooking, to make sure that the cooking was done and that the meal would be ready by the time that the service . . . There was a lot of need, and so there was a lot of acceptance. You walked in and depending upon what your mother shared with you, your grandmother, your aunt shared with you, they'd say, "ok they're going to need some help out there in the kitchen, you'd better go out there and help and get the table set." And so we'd go out, and that was the same way in our general council sessions. On the old Agency grounds, there was always responsibilities that had to be met. And responsibilities were to be shared by everybody: adult and children alike. And with the old gathering practices, that was even more critical - everybody had a role to play. I shared with you the old Sucker, the old chuam ceremony, where there was so much responsibility that was shared. And that goes back a lot of years, you know. |
| [14,23] And a lot, a lot of cultures, that was a part of their survival, the survival process, that reliance upon the community, that reliance upon each other to make sure things get done as a collective group. And so, we did, we grew up as individuals, but we also grew up as individuals who understood the responsibility to the collective group, to the community, and it was practiced on a daily basis. So, that's the kind of experience, along with those other experiences that I had mentioned already, the gathering experiences, the communal experiences of governing and that type of thing, helped us grow up and, because a lot of that traditional teaching that went on included beliefs and value systems that went back thousands and thousands of years, that allowed to reach the point that we had reached, in terms of survival, in our particular survival. |
| [14,24] And so, my experience on that old Klamath Agency ground, that old Klamath Indian Reservation, beginning with my birth on that Klamath Agency, had a lot to do with where I am today, and that old Klamath Agency ground. The church practice was one, the old traditional Indian Shaker practice's one. Just going to the Klamath Agency: the Klamath Agency was the centre of our government. And it had a hospital, obviously where I was born and my brothers were, my brother was born. It had a tribal administration building. It had a natural resources building, nurses quarters, had quarters and residences for the BIA personnel who were responsible for running that agency. It had a council hall. It had a general commissary. It had a cookhouse, and a cafeteria, and eating site. It had stockyards. It had, was just the centre of all our government operations. And so there, we went there to conduct tribal business. And a lot of the business had to do with how the government was managing our assets, because that was a part of the process being placed on reservation, and that, the BIA was handed the responsibility for managing our assets, and managing our resources and assisting in our efforts in their efforts to move us into a more assimilated role - preparing us to step out into the general population. |
| [14,25] And so, the, that old agency complex had a lot of history to it, a lot of influence on us, and the, 'cause it was a gathering place for tribal people, either for business or for recreation. There was a tribal store there that was a very popular gathering places for people to meet, and buy food and buy candy during business meetings, General Council sessions. And that old tribal store was a favorite place for all the young people during General Council sessions, 'cause those General Council sessions went on for a long, long time during the, could take all day and into the evening before tribal business was completed. And so the younger people who, who didn't feel they had any benefit from listening to all those people talking all day, would go swimming in the creek below, behind the General Council Hall. Wasn't really a swimming experience; it was jumping in and jumping out because that creek was very, very cold. |
| [14,26] It would be a matter of playing in the barn; and playing in the stockyards, and looking at the horses, and looking at the cows, going to the store, or just meeting and playing games at the basketball court, there was an open basketball court there. And we were, tribal people have been involved with basketball for a very, very long time: very common practice on most reservations. So there was always basketballs games to be played. Or just sitting and visiting and playing games on that, on, during our periods on that. |
| [14,27] That was also true about central community, our core community on the reservation. Chiloquin, which was located in the center of our, pretty much in south center, central part of our reservation. It was the hub of our, it was the biggest community on our reservation. There were other communities as well that existed: a log, a lumber company at Pine Ridge, which was populated mostly with lumber company people, but there were a few of our people who worked there also. There was the mills in Chiloquin, there was the retail stores, there was a gas station. There was Chevrolet garage there. And there was of course, residential, there were allotments and lots that were held by lumber mill employees, most of which were non-Indian people during that period at the time. But there were also tribal allotments, individual residential allotments that occupied, that made up a lot of the Chiloquin community. So we had tribal people living in, significant number of tribal people living in the Chiloquin community in those tribal allotments. There was the community at Modoc Point where we lived; which was mostly a farming area. Flat landscape, sitting on the edge of the Klamath Lake. |
| [14,28] There was the community at Modoc Point, again another lumber complex. We had so much timber on our reservation, four and half million board feet of timber, with approximately during my period of time one and half billion board of identified virgin timber, mostly pine and fir, then sugar pine, which offered a great deal of economic potential for the tribe, but that was always managed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And we benefited from what they sold in timber and harvested in timber. We benefited from land allotments which eventually moved into rental allotments to non-Indian people on the reservation. And all of that was poured into a central fund for the tribal people. And then the Klamath Agency, the tribal administration, people at, on the Klamath Agency, would disperse those on a regular basis to the tribal members. And those dispersements were referred to as per-capita payments. So for the most part, that worked against our best interest in the long run, because most of the lumber complexes and the timber complexes were managed and manned by non-Indian people. The economic benefit that we could have derived as being full participants in that process, we never, we never enjoyed as much as we might have. |
| [14,29] And so, the government got the return from all that, from all that sale of timber and lease of lands, and put into a tribal fund and that was dispersed to the tribal members on a monthly basis, sometimes a, bi-monthly basis. And then with a bonus checks at some time during the year, generally at Christmas which was larger. And so the, that was the function of that tribal administration site at Klamath Agency. But we considered that very important site to us too, because our tribal government, that's where they operated. And then we had a, we had what most tribes call Tribal Council; we referred to ours as an Executive Committee, who had tribal representatives who sat and worked with the BIA, Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the Indian Health Services in assuring that the tribal people were getting their fair share of what was, which was a part of their return from the natural resources that were being sold off the reservation. But in the long run, that tribal government existed always under the control of the Bureau of Indian Affairs people who managed that tribal government for us. We had other cultural centers, I refer to them as cultural centers because of their location across the reservation, had, offered cultural opportunities for sharing of other cultures. |
| [14,30] We were a confederation of tribes, and that involved our community, the Klamath community, there around Klamath Lake, and, but we also had the Modoc people assigned to sit our reservation and share in our reservation and experience, and the Modoc people came from another unique community, cultural community out of Northern California and Southern Oregon, a Piute band of people if you will, high plateau community, high plateau culture, who grew up in a completely different cultural environment and physical environment. And so, they brought to us, on the reservation a a different way of doing things, a different mode of thinking, a different cultural experience to us. And we also had another band of Piute Indians that were assigned to our reservation, the Yahooskin Band of Piute Indians, which formally, well in fact, they were just a band of a huge, huge cultural group, the Shoshone-Ute out of the Shoshone-Ute tradition, out of the, which was one of the largest tribal nations, I found out later, that existed in tribelets, from the central Mexico and running through California, Nevada into Washington and Idaho and into Canada. They were tribelets made up of the Shoshone-Ute Nation, and that Yahooskin Band was assigned also and they made up, they made up the minority population on, within our reservation population, with the Modoc making the second largest group. And then the Klamath being the largest number of people on that reservation. |
| [14,31] And so, we were a diverse community of tribes that were placed into a confederation to exist as a tribe, as a result of the treaty with the federal government. And so we, they lived, they chose to live in a different part of the reservation than we grew up in, although we had Klamaths dispersed across, 'cause it was the Klamath Reservation. But the Yahooskin Band of Piute Indians and the Modoc people elected to stay as close to the geographic environment as they possibly could. And so they lived, in the Eastern part of our reservation, where it wasn't as timber orientated. where there was a different environment that was more similar to where they came from, high plateau region, little more arid, a little more arid climate. And so we had communities at Chiloquin, at Modoc Point, at Klamath Agency. And then as we moved eastward away from Chiloquin, we moved, there was a Sprague River community which was a smaller community. Then the Chiloquin community. There was a Beatty community, which traditionally was viewed as a Piute community. Although there were, there was a, it was a diverse community also. There was a Bonanza community, there was a Bly community. And all of those communities were a part of the Klamath Reservation system. |
| [14,32] So we had, there was constant exposure of all of us to each other's cultures. We grew up with becoming well acquainted with the Modoc culture and the Piute culture at the same time. And there was a lot of similarities, but there were also unique differences in the way they practiced their customs, the way they maintained their traditions and practices. And so it was always nice to go celebrations in those other communities. Beatty used to have a big rodeo that they held every year. That was a very popular rodeo that we attended from all over the reservation. It was a big rodeo. And during the rodeo there were still, there were games that were played, traditional hand games, that most, that was slowly disappearing, the elders of the community, and the near elders of the community, still practiced the old Indian hand games, where they gambled: it was a gambling exercise and practice. And they sang and they beat drums. If they didn't have drums, they placed boards in front of the competing teams, because it was a team game. And you had teams that were made up of individual members, sometimes they were broke up into Klamath versus Modoc versus Piute teams, anywhere up to ten to twelve people. |
| [14,33] And they would sit in front of the boards; or kneel in front of the boards, and they would have sticks of one type or another and they would sing, and sing songs, old traditional songs, and keep cadence with their sticks, with their sticks, like this, and singing at the same. And they had captains, and the captain's responsible for the gambling part of it, and each of the captains, and sometimes they would have two, two leaders up in the front of the group, in between the two competing groups, like this, and they had a set of bones, and the bones, they were made out of steer or antler, antlers, or steer horns or something to that effort. or even sometimes polished stick. And they were designated with either once, one band of different color, or two different colors, or tri-colored, and then they had handkerchiefs or they had cloths, scarves, and they would take turns trying to hid the, these bones in their hands, they referred to as bones, underneath their handkerchiefs, and they would sing, and then finally they would stop. And then the team, the opposing team, then would some spokesperson for the opposing team would attempt to identify where the, where the marked bone was in their hands. |
| [14,34] And it could be anywhere: it could be in the left hand, it could be in right hand, it could be between their legs, it could be under their armpits, be somewhere, and if they were successful in identifying where the marked bone was, then they would, they would get a stick, and each of those sticks were designated beforehand as having certain value. And so they would go on for, you know, while people were enjoying the rodeo, or people were eating, these guys, these people would be playing these hand games. They could go on all day, and people would get up and go off to eat, people would get up and then somebody else would step in. And these games would, I used to be just amazed at the stamina of those people as they played their games all day. And at the end of the, then they would take a break for lunch, or they would take a break for dinner, then they would go back to the hand games. After each break, they would count up the number of sticks that each team had. Then, of course, if they're worth five dollar a piece, then five dollars a piece, and then you had, you had fifty sticks or twenty-five sticks, then they would take, then the other team had responsibility for coming up with the money. And then that money would be shared with the team members on this side. And so there sometimes, there was a great deal of money that was exchanged during one of those sessions. |
| [14,35] So each one of the communities had something that was unique to their particular community. And because we shared on a regular basis, and we were such a close communities across the reservation, and we participated in a lot of those celebrations, there was a lot of uniqueness that was shared, so that we grew up learning about each other's cultures. we learned, and their traditions and belief systems, and even though it involved just three, three tribal units there was still a lot to be shared and a lot to be learned. And so that was a kind of situation that grew up, that influenced my overall growth and development, 'cause I remember all that. And the thing that I remember most, of course, was the close community, the close community relationships that existed, and then within those close community relationships, those lessons that were taught in terms of responsibility, those lessons that were taught in terms of respect, those, and those lessons that were taught, that were related to other practices and customs and traditions like gathering, and hunting and fishing and the stewardship. |
| [14,36] And one of those lessons, of course, was a thing that went on all of the time, the teaching of our responsibility as stewards of our natural resources,which is directly tied to our religious beliefs, our spiritual belief systems: to protect what Mother Earth has given us, to make sure that what Mother Earth, that everybody will have an opportunity to share in. And so, that involved also, responsibility to make sure that the elders who no longer had the stamina, or the strength to do on their own and provide for themselves, that families learned the responsibility to take care of Grandma and Grandpa, and our great grandparents at the council sessions. If you were working in the kitchen chances are that if you allowed yourself to be, to play around the kitchen or to be caught running through the kitchen, for any reason, that the head of the kitchen, and we always had matriarchs generally who took care of different parts of daily life, and the matriarch who had responsibility for that old General Council meal system, if you allowed yourself to be caught in that, you know, running through there, or us sitting there, or playing around, there was a pretty good chance -- you want to stop? Ok -- There was a pretty good chance that, you were going to be assigned some responsibility. |
| [14,37] And so, if you're smart you stayed away if you didn't want to work, if you don't want to work there. So, and so, that's how those kinds of experiences and those cultural landscapes influenced our personal growth and development as young people growing up on the reservation. And so that's where my, that's where my social, my cultural, my spiritual development began. and then, and then I was, and then my formal education was initiated at the old Algoma schools because my parents were living there; my father was working there. And that Algoma experience was another experience in self that accomplished basically the same kind of thing, but in a different perspective, because of the exposures to other peoples, and other cultures. But the, a lot of the lessons were very, very similar in character. So it was initiated at Algoma and extended into another community closer to Klamath Falls, and eventually Klamath Falls. And again, at the insistence of my mother and my aunt and my grandmother for their own personal reasons, I was asked to go into that public school system, because of their experiences with what had happened with their educational experiences on the former reservation. And so I graduated eventually out of the Klamath Falls schools in 1951, went on then and left the reservation. |
| [14,38] And each one of these experiences of moving from the reservation to the non-reservation schools, and the non-reservation experience, both in Klamath Falls and eventually into Ashland, where I went to school at Southern Oregon College of Education, were critical experiences for me. Because, it exposed me to new ways of thinking and new ideas. It moved me farther and farther away from a very secure, comfortable living experiences. There was so much out there. Going to Klamath Falls was a significant experience for me because there were a lot of misperceptions, well, a lot of perceptions and misperceptions, true perceptions that I had about moving into the non-Indian community. Particularly the Klamath Falls community, 'cause we grew up in a period of time where there was a still a lot of bias and discrimination that existed involving Indian, non-Indian relations. And the same thing happened to me when I left Klamath Falls and eventually went into Southern Oregon, and lived in the Ashland. And that was always reinforced, my personal misperceptions and expectations were reinforced also by stories that I heard after I moved into the Jackson County community, where there was still remnants of an old discriminatory society that were still left then. A lot of bias, discriminatory practice, that was still being practiced then. |
| [14,39] I was married in college, in 1953; the result of that, we wound up with six children of our own. And we going to be, we've been together for fifty years, and my wife's influence over those fifty years has had a tremendous impact on me as well, because of what we shared together, as a married couple, and the support that she's, reinforcement that she's provided me all along the ways for me and my children. She was responsible for actually raising our children. Because after I left college and began my teaching career, I was also involved in coaching experiences. So I was, I spent a lot of time away from home in meeting, teaching and coaching responsibilities. And so she bore total, primary responsibility, and the fact that she went through several illnesses that created some problems for her in meeting her goals towards being a mother and a wife and so forth, created also additional experiences for me and my children. And fortunately for me I grew up in a cultural, social condition, that, whereby we learned those lessons very, very early about the responsibilities we had for each other. So my kids began learning that experience, in terms of assisting their mother in helping her meet, meet her goals. |
| [14,40] And I went from, so I spent the next thirty years, teaching K-12 with some experience within that next thirty years of teaching in the college, at the college level at the same time, as director of the Warm Springs internship project at Warm Springs. And then after I graduated, and I graduated, and within that period of time, within that same thirty year period of time, I also, I also allowed myself to share other opportunities to move into other areas in the education field. And so I spent four years with the State Department of Education as Director of Civil Rights, first time, and then Director of Indian Education during the second period; I guess it was five years, I spent at, with them. And then I finally retired in 1988 from that career, educational career. And then I went from a class experience, to an educational consultant experience. And that happened primarily because of my tribe's request to come back and help them in restoring their government which they were able to do because of Restoration Act of 1986. And in 1988 I was approached by tribal leaders with an opportunity to go back and assist them with their efforts in restoring their government. |
| [14,41] So I went back and served as a consultant to them. And then eventually assumed a responsibility as Tribal Operations General Manager on an interim basis, until they found somebody. And then eventually served as Tribal Chair for a couple of years with Tribal Government back then. And all during that period of time, and so there was a, since the time that I graduated in 1955, between 1955 and 1988 a period of 88 years, I also had a parallel development, a personal growth and development that allowed me to take a serious look and study and experience other Native American cultures and experiences that they had gone through in that particular point in time. I also, I had opportunity to go back to school, and initiate a master's program, which I never completed but I initiated then. And I spent a lot of time studying federal Indian relations. So it opened my educational experience in, towards a better and a more comprehensive understanding of federal-Indian relations across the county, and then within the state of Oregon. And it also allowed me, moving back to those, working with those Native American communities to, to rekindle my spiritual relationship with those traditional religions. Because at Warm Springs and at Umatilla, I ran into people who were still practicing, in their fashion, those traditional means of spiritual development. |
| [14,42] My, it took me into working on college campuses, where I, I established contact with traditional Native American people. Like on your campus, I ran into a couple of key people who really assisted me in developing a broader understanding of the old spiritual, the old spiritual religions of the Native American populations, and this, the Washut Religion at Warm Springs and at Umatilla, the Seven Feathers practice of religion. One of the gentlemen that I met on your campus, who came out of the Idaho, Northern Idaho, tradition. And so, in my travels across the country, which resulted from my involvement with the State Department of Education, and my educational consultant work, exposed me and put me again, with other populations, other Native American populations, who were still practicing that very, very closely. And so I've had a parallel development of, I had my initial development within my own tribal community; my initial growth and development as a professional educator, and then this parallel development which allowed me to incorporate the belief systems and the practices and the customs of other tribal communities across the country, and then across the state. And I became also, parallel development, as a part of my educational consultant work, that allowed me to become a consultant in tribal operations, program management, program development, specialist. |
| [14,43] And so, I've had experiences of working with various tribes in the state, and in other states in educational program development, tribal operations program development, and that type of thing. So the, I didn't spend as much time as I wanted to with the Algoma experience but we, I think we've got that down on another piece already. So we can, we can incorporate that. And so, to, ok, the all of that experiences is what I think of when I think about my personal growth and development. And all of that has been very beneficial to me over the long run in assisting my community, and assisting other communities in developing programs and assisting them in their efforts to move forward into self-determining communities. And that's very important, that's very important to my community, now that we have the opportunity as a Restored tribe to move in new directions. The only, the missing piece in our experience is of course, the Termination process which I discussed in another segment. |
| [14,44] And I think I said that, as well, the most critical impact, that we had with the Termination process, was the loss of the land base, and all that went with the land base: the water resources, the hunting, the fishing, the gathering resources, the cultural experiences that were afforded to us as a result of having a land base. That's been the most difficult hurdle for us as a, one tribal unit in dealing with, because without those, without that natural resource, without an, that former environment that we had, right now, it's very difficult to continue to sustain our cultural belief systems, our cultural traditions and customs. And so, we find ourselves right now, starting from base one, and fortunately for us, we've had people within our community that we've been able to rely on to sustain a lot of what was formally part of our culture. We still have elders who speak the language: the number of those people are diminishing at a rapid, rapid rate. But fortunately we've established, with our restored government, we've established a language program where we're, we've developed an opportunity to preserve as much of that that is left right now. And that's also true for the belief systems and the cultures and the traditions. We're doing more and more in that area. But without that sacred, without that landscape, that provided such a base for us, it's been a very, very difficult road. And I envy those tribes who've been able to sustain that landscape as a cultural base for themselves. |
| [14,45] Linc Kesler: I'm afraid we've hit the end of the tape. |
| [14,46] Morrie Jimenez: That's good. |
| [14,47] Linc Kesler: Thank you. |
|
Session 15 |
| [15,1] Linc Kesler: It's the twentieth of November 2002 and here with Morrie Jimenez again. We're filming today on the campus of Oregon State University. And we had just begun talking, a minute ago, while we were setting up the camera about the situation which has sometimes faced by Indian people who come to university and become expert in some field and then return to work with tribal organizations. And encounter a variety of attitudes when they do that, from other people. So you were talking a little bit about that. |
| [15,2] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, and your comment regarding the young man who picked up his professional education here, went back to his home community and was experiencing some difficulties with his, within his community, within his tribal government, and in many cases the frustrations that can develop for a young Indian person who finds himself doing what he was asked, procuring a professional education, getting certified, graduating with degrees and then going back. I was faced with that same kind of situation, so I was very familiar with what you were saying, and then I just met, before I came over here, I just met with one of your students who's gone through the, one of the Native, one of the classes with the Native American focus, in the ecosystems area. And I've known the young man and his family for a number of years. And the question that I faced in sitting down with him, and my original intention was just to get a status of how things were going with him, was where was he in his program. And now that he's graduated, and picked up his undergraduate degree, and he was saying that he was in quandary about where he was going to go and what he was going to do. And he wondered if I had ever had that same problem in my experience. |
| [15,3] And so, the quandary that he's finding himself in deals with, and many students greater than just Native American students wind up in that same position: you pick up, you spend four or five years on a campus, and you're ready to get out, and then you're faced with an option to pick your graduate degree program before you go off into the real world. So a lot of students face that. Native American students, it becomes very, very significant because in their undergraduate work in many cases, particularly if they've focused on a discovery program that allows them to learn, expand their knowledge and experience in Native American cultures, Native American history development, cultural development, like that, become more and more aware of their culture. And it becomes significant particularly for those, extremely significant, particularly for those who for one reason or another, have been removed from their former cultural experience, and we have a lot of those students, Native American students in that situation, have rediscovered a great deal of information about their, their cultural, historical background, their cultural roots, and then developed a new avenue of thinking that focuses or centers around the need to get out and the assist with the future development of their culture and their communities. |
| [15,4] And that's where I assessed this young man as being at that particular point in time: "do I go on? And spend the next three or four years picking up my master's degree? Or do I go out and get some experience, in real life situations and hopefully with tribal communities whereby I can better hone my skills and knowledge and experiences about where tribes are now, tribal communities are now?" And spent a lot of time discovering of what they're doing now; what they're involved with now. And determine a better knowledge base regarding where tribes think they want to go into the future. And then also, at the same time, develop a broader base of understanding about how tribes have moved from a ward status-ship type of government, one dependant upon the Bureau of Indian Affairs, to a more self-determining status, and what with the passage of a number of Federal Acts, which allows now for tribes to enter in more self-determining activity. And tribes have taken off with that. And as a result of that, their finding themselves with greater need for professionals. Particularly professionals who have knowledge and experience in working in that other world, non-reservation world, the non-tribal community world. They need those people, and are currently spending a lot of money and a lot of effort in trying to find those people to come in and assist them, Indian and non-Indian alike, ok? |
| [15,5] And in the past, in early years of the self-determining status, they were very content, and in fact, we're very appreciative of the expertise, the professional expertise they could bring to the system, and redevelopment of government in reestablishment of economic development plans, in reestablishment of education system, and what they needed were people who had the professional training in those areas to help to assist them in their planning their future, relative to their intent to become self, not only sovereign, but self-determining nations. And so, I was, so that's where he was. And that was very interesting to me. I immediately when he started sharing this with me, was able to say to him, "I'm very familiar with this situation." Because that's, that situation, I found myself in a number of different times. Initially, it was easy to fulfill an initial purpose in life, which was influenced a great deal by my parents, and my, and members of my extended family, to get an education, high school education, college education, and get out there and utilize that education to develop a broader expertise and knowledge about the world in general, the non-reservation world, in the hopes that someday I would be able to bring that knowledge back to our former reservation community, in an effort to assist our younger people in establishing goals, and establishing paths. |
| [15,6] And so, I had to take that a step at a time. I wound up, as I said, shared with you previously, I wound up getting the, going through the really scary proposition of moving from a reservation based educational experience to a non-reservation based, although it was only twenty-six miles away, and then getting through that, and making it eventually through that process into high school in that same non-reservation community in my county, and then winding up getting a high school education, and then having to make another decision regarding extending my education by going to college, and then eventually getting the college degree. And then spending my first two years, in a teaching school at the elementary school level before I decided to go back, that wanted to experience, because of my coaching interest at the same time, I decided that I wanted also to move on into the coaching ranks, which I could only attain success with at the high school level. And so with that intent in mind, I went back to school, picked up a graduate degree that would allow me to pick up a secondary teaching certificate. And then from there I started my trek, in my career life experiences, by moving from one high school, to another high school to a middle school, eventually to the college level. |
| [15,7] And then eventually, over the next thirty years, thirty-three years or so, and being able to pick up . . . Well during the initial fifteen years, that was fine. I was growing and developing all the time as a professional educator. But I finally reached a point where, after about the first fifteen years of my experience, which included also an exposures I shared with you before, a short term with the State Department of Education twice, one as the Indian Education Specialist, and one as the Civil Rights Specialist at the State Department of Education, those opportunities really ignited, or re-ignited my interest in fulfilling that complementary intent to not only become a professional educator, one with professional credibility that my parents, or my relatives, could point to with pride, but also with the intent of fulfilling what I refer to as my circle of life journey, and that circle of life journey being all those life experiences that allow, if successfully completed, would allow to me to achieve wholeness, which is a part of our philosophy in the Native American culture. And that wholeness can only be achieved through success, through a successful experience in our life, in our life experience, regardless of whether it's in a professional area, or the non-professional area. That, that's a responsibility that's constantly taught to us. But not always successfully met in reservation communities in those early historical periods of time. |
| [15,8] In fact, that's much more, it's much more appropriate now to discuss that aspect in today's non-Indian, ah, Native American world than it was back, thirty, forty, fifty years ago, when we were part of system who's sole intent was for us to give up our culture in an effort that we might become totally assimilated as the typical American citizen. And so, in sharing that with this, in sharing that with this young man I was able to share with him that those opportunities that arrived in my teaching experience, going to work for the State Department and eventually taking some time to go to work as a Director with Special Teacher Education Project at Warm Springs, allowed me to decide I needed to expand that, I needed to expand my knowledge and experiential level professionally, as I did in my undergraduate programs, again the intent to hopefully strengthen my availability and my, and my personal value to anybody who wanted me to share that with them. |
| [15,9] And so, I, in that period of time between, I started teaching in 1955, that period of time that I went back to the reservation to work with my community fifteen years later, and then the period of time that elapsed between that point in time and the experience of going to work for the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs as a teacher education facilitator, and then the two experiences with the State Department of Education, and then the two roles that I fulfilled there, I was able to ascertain, in my own mind, that what would have happened if I had decided, like he was trying to decide, to go on and complete the master's program, ok? And in my own mind, at this particular point in time, what I gained in those other experiences, outside of the classroom teaching experiences with the various educational agencies and tribal agencies, and the roles that I was fulfilling, there were no classes that I could have taken in the institution that would allow me to pick up the experience and the knowledge and the expertise in the area of Indian Education, and civil rights, needs, the needs in the civil rights area. And so, when I look back on that, up until about five to six years ago, that used to bother me, that I had never fulfilled that mission to pick up that master's degree and possibly that doctor's degree, because that was also a part of thinking back then. |
| [15,10] But when I look back on, when I look back now and think about the experiences I had working for my own tribe, eventually, and then working on behalf of the nine tribes in the state of Oregon, and then being able to share that nationally, on a national scale with individual tribal unities, I don't regret the path my life experiences have taken up to this particular point in time, because there was so much that I gained from my exposure to those real life situations. There was a lot of learning that had to go on. And a lot of frustrations that developed primarily like the young man that you told me, from the northeastern part of the state, that you shared with me, his story, his concern. There's a lot that has to be learned in renegotiating an ability to become a facilitator for tribes. The tribes, in their own fashion have learned how to manipulate and how to utilize their experiences in negotiating their relationships with the federal government, initially. And now they've been, they're in a situation now where, they now have to negotiate on a regional basis. They have negotiate with states in addition to the federal government. And the skills and the expertise, they utilize in negotiating over the years, over the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years with the federal government have had to be reevaluated and reviewed. New strategies, they've had to develop in their attempts to negotiate their present position, their current position with tribes. |
| [15,11] And I think in the water rights issue in my community, that's developed since 1990, we not only negotiate with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, but of course, in that interim period of time, the Indian Health Services has also become a force that we have to reckon with and establish a negotiation strategy for, in terms of human and health services for our tribal communities. But in that water rights issue, that was reinforced for me even more so, in our county and in our situation, even though I played a consulting role, and an observer in situation, that's developed since 1990. I've met with tribal members and of course I have a brother that still sits, works with tribal government as a member of Tribal Council. And he constantly fills me in about the kinds of negotiations that they're faced with now. And we're talking about numerous independent federal agencies now, Indian and non-Indian alike, Indian focused and non-Indian focused alike, that we have, the Bureau of Reclamation, one of those, the water policy boards, fish and wildlife department, whereas at one time, the BIA took care of all of those negotiations, and were the key forces in negotiating what tribes wanted to do. |
| [15,12] Linc Kesler: I was wondering if you could talk a little about that transition that you experienced, it sounds like, a couple of times, and then this other fellow was dealing with just recently, of having gone off somewhere to some, and gotten a higher education, say, and then returning to work with the tribal organizations, or, going to a different tribal organization. What kind of challenges do you face, or did you face in your experience, as someone who had become expert in the education system of the state or whatever, and then going back into the, into a community? How were regarded? And what kind of challenges did that pose for you? |
| [15,13] Morrie Jimenez: I was regarded in a number of different ways, with suspicion, and I had, I had a problem with credibility. But that's true for anybody in any community that you go to. But that's particularly true in tribal communities. You have to establish a credibility for the people in the community. And there's a credibility that you have to establish with tribal governments. And then there's a credibility that you have to establish with the community members. And in order for you to reestablish, in order for you to establish that credibility, I had to relearn a lot of the social mores, a lot of the things that you can do and probably shouldn't do if in fact you're going to be able to accomplish the goals that you were hired, when I went back, you were hired to accomplish. When I went back to work for my own tribe, so many of the tribal members that I grew up with were still on that former reservation area. So many of the people that were currently involved in tribal government by the time I went back, had very little idea who I was. They knew who my family was, and they knew the members of my family much better than they . . . I was only somebody that they heard about. |
| [15,14] And so, I was still dealing with the perception, really, because of the number of people that we, had not completed a professional education until I came along. But who, when I did go back, fifteen years later, we wound up with more of our youngsters getting, going through, procuring a high school education, even going into college. There were so many more than my generation. But so that was a big part of the problem. And that credibility, and lead to a natural suspicion about where I was, where my head was. Was I going to be more into . . . I served community when I went back as, in a consultant role, so I wasn't a real threat to tribal government or to tribal community members as a consultant. They were glad to see me and there's no question about that, and they were glad to see somebody from their community come back and serve in the capacity that I was asked to come back. The tribe was in the process of reestablishing their government. Due to the fact that, Congress had granted Restoration of the Klamath Tribe, restoration of their former status as a tribal unit in the total process, in the total federal process. |
| [15,15] And so, their mission was restore their government and establish operations that will allow them to get back to where they were previous to Termination, in, as a provider of services to their people, in all, in the political, economic and social areas. And so, my initial job was to do nothing more than to sit and listen to what was going in tribal operations at those planning sessions, as they attempted to restore their government, and then replicate that on paper, and assist them in putting together in a format that would meet federal guidelines, and would also be acceptable to the tribe. And that was not, that was no easy task, because having worked for the State Department of Education, state, state government agencies, and having been responsible for mentoring teachers in the educational institutions, I had developed a personal commitment to the importance of organization and structure in order to attain what it was that you wanted to attain. And so, and of course, I spent a lot of time mentoring teachers and helping teachers plan, and put together, and put together structures that allow them to move through a calendar year. |
| [15,16] So that's basically what I was asked to do for the Klamath Tribes, but the Klamath Tribes, having very little experience in organizational structure, primarily because most of that done by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and their staffs. And in most cases, the Bureau, they were very willing to provide input as to what, the tribal members were willing, able to provide input to, as to what it was that they wanted to do, and how they wanted it to operate, but it fell ultimately to the Bureau of Indian Affairs to decide whether that was the proper procedure and the proper path to take. So by the time I came back, after Restoration and with the advent of the Self-Determination Act, tribes with the first part, were for the first time given the leeway to develop governments as they saw fit to meet their needs, as they were, as they identified those needs. And so, I was hampered initially by all my learning, to begin with, because the process that I had adopted by that particular point in time, was one where we tried to get things done by, through utilization of, development of goals, objectives, and projected outcomes, and time lines and that type of thing. |
| [15,17] I made a big mistake by assuming that they understood how that operated and, as a restored government who had never been given the opportunity to do a lot of their own work, I found that I had to go back and teach that, not only had to go back and teach that, but I also had to go back and explain to them, the value of a approaching planning from that perspective. And just my vocabulary, just my use of concepts and ideas I picked up in the non-reservation world, I assumed too much. My expectations were really too high and what I had forgotten, that, what I had in front of me was students, who were very intent, who had a goal in mind, they knew what they wanted to do, but were hampered by somebody who wasn't willing to take the time to explain the whys and wherefores of how things needed to be put together, and how they would benefit ultimately from this, and . . . |
| [15,18] Linc Kesler: So that's, that's the strategy you developed then? |
| [15,19] Morrie Jimenez: That's the strategy. |
| [15,20] Linc Kesler: Leaving space to . . . |
| [15,21] Morrie Jimenez: Right. |
| [15,22] Linc Kesler: To give them a chance understand what it was you were trying to do. |
| [15,23] Morrie Jimenez: Right. I had to go back and do what I currently preach to the State Department of Education and other educational entities: how to deal with the tribal communities. And I had to go back, that was a lesson that I had to relearn; is that, because of the experience that tribal governments have had with government entities over the years, there was a great deal of a suspicious, suspicion about people who came in, as, with the kinds of expertise that I had, kinds of abilities that I had. And I had made the mistake of assuming that, which I didn't do with students, because I always never, I never made that mistake with students in the classroom at any level. I always started from the base that I don't know where they want to go. I don't know what they want to do. So it's my responsibility to develop a process, as to where it is that they wanted to go with their education, and what it is that was to most interest to them. |
| [15,24] And so, that's what I was not doing with the tribal government. My intent as a consulter, professional consultant, and a writer, was to get the thing done and get it back to them so they could review it for analysis. And I had to go back and begin spending more time in breaking down my work units into smaller units so that we could progress in a fashion that would allow them to be completely involved in the total planning and development, and even project their roles, in terms of how we're going to implement this. And we also, I also needed to go back and teach about the importance of, management employee relations, and then how you achieve a successful management employee relationship that would allow us to move forward without too much trouble. |
| [15,25] Linc Kesler: You, you're, so far it seems to me you're describing part of this, just in terms of speed. You know, slowing down and giving them a chance to absorb, and giving yourself a chance to explain more, in more detail, what it was you were trying to do. I'm also curious as to whether you, whether what you were trying to accomplish, the way you had envisioned trying to accomplish, aside from the speed issues, just in terms of what it actually was, whether that changed as well as you began hearing what they were saying, or . . . |
| [15,26] Morrie Jimenez: Yes, and that, yeah in, aside from the speed issue, there was also a content issue, because I had developed in my own mind ideas about where they ought to be and where they ought to go. And I had to learn that that was something that I could share, but with no expectation that they were going to accept that, ok? And then I had to learn how to deal with that, at an attitudinal level, how to deal with that, and how to, and to search new ways of inserting that idea in a different fashion so that it might have greater acceptance potential, you know, because it, in many cases, it was something that I think that really needed to be included, but it was a matter of negotiating that with, not only with the council and with tribal program management staff, but also, I had to, I had to remind that, I remind myself that I had to go, make sure that the community, even though that was not my role, I had to make sure that when I was asked questions about, "how are you doing?" and "what are you accomplishing?" that I would share with the community laity. You know, give them information that would allow them to understand where the tribal, where the tribe wanted to go. And quite often I was asked to advocate on, on behalf of community members because of, because of my, the familiarity with me and my family, and among the tribal members. |
| [15,27] Linc Kesler: To advocate back to the council? |
| [15,28] Morrie Jimenez: To advocate on their behalf to the tribal council and with tribal operations. And in many cases I served as a, I served as a backboard for concerns that needed to expressed about tribal council, or a sounding board is what I wanted to say, a sounding board for lay members of the community and tribal operations staff and even individual Tribal Council members, who wanted me, who wanted to share those with me on a regular basis, and then ask me either informally, or indirectly to, if I would be willing to advocate on their behalf regarding their concern. And I had to learn that I couldn't do that. I could express my concerns individually, to answers, but I always had to make sure that they understood that my role was simply to replicate the desires of the policy making body for the tribe, but that I could share that, you know, with individual members of the tribal council. And I could bring those up in, in, as a part, when I asked for input "is there something better that we could do," by the tribal council members and tribal operations, that I might insert that at some point. So I had to become very skilled, I found out very quickly. I made major mistakes, several mistakes initially, by attempting to be an advocate and going directly to the tribal council or individual council members, and number of, it didn't take me long, being put down a number of times. |
| [15,29] Linc Kesler: Did they just regard that as interference? |
| [15,30] Morrie Jimenez: They regarded that as interference, and in many cases they regarded that as helpful, and in most cases, the majority of the cases, they would be very polite and listen, but eventually they would remind, in their own fashion, what my role was, back there as a consultant to the tribe. When I assumed, and of course, and so there was a lot of learning that I had to go and do for tribe that would allow me to become as effective as they hoped I could be for them. And so, what I did was, I resigned myself, I resigned myself to becoming just a writer. And responding to questions with information that I hoped might assist them in their efforts to put together what they wanted to put together. And I was very comfortable with that, being a writer. When I was in another situation with another tribal community, I wound up with that same problem, but there I wound up with factionalism, a problem with factionalism that persists on many tribal communities. The factionalism exists because in most cases you're dealing with confederations of tribes, or bands, and what, where a majority of the population in our community, the majority population was the Klamath people, with the minority communities of the Modoc and Piute, the Yahooskin Piute Band. |
| [15,31] That's true of the other tribes that I've worked with in this state. And you have to be very sensitive to that factionalism that exists. It's a, it can be a, an obvious factionalism or it can be a very subtle factionalism. But one of the biggest mistakes that I made initially moving to another community was a willingness to share my feelings about other factions and a willingness to share my personal feelings. And so, I had to learn, I had to learn again to focus on my role. And respond to queries and requests for advocacy in a fashion that protected my role. That was very important, but I was assisted with it by other tribal members with teaching the community, and reminding the community that I was there for a specific reason and that was all. So in, for example, in one of the communities up northeast, one of our larger communities in this state, I would be asked questions in public meetings about what it was that the Tribal Council was doing. And I never responded to that kind of question. I said "that's a question for the Tribal Council, you need to address with Tribal Council." |
| [15,32] But questions specifically directed to me regarding operations, for example, in that community, I was assigned tribal responsibility to direct the teacher training program. I carried that same kind of responsibility with the local school district; they assigned me the director, as the, well I was there in that interim period as the director of Federal Programs. Well the only federal programs that was of any significance was the program that I was there to work with, and in this community, on this campus, who was a partner in that collaborative effort, I was assigned a specific responsibility, as the Co-Director and as the Site Director for that particular project. And so, I had to make sure that the tribal community understood my roles in each one of those different areas. But like I said, I got a lot of hell from Tribal Council members who would rescue me many times at public meetings, where I would be asked a lot of those questions that I knew I couldn't answer directly, and they very simply would step forward and, and remind the community why I was hired and what I supposed to do, and at the same time, offer me a great deal of support. |
| [15,33] I was, I think the thing that made me, that made those experiences such good experiences for me was that I had to relearn that there's, that culture, the community, the attitudes of the community. If paid attention to them, if I paid attention to the traditional ways of talking and asking questions and listening, and those kinds, pay closer, I would be in pretty good shape. If I forgot some of those lessons, that's what would be getting me into trouble. For example, very simple things: I was making a presentation to the Tribal Council, which was my responsibility, about the teacher internship program, and I gave quarterly reports to them, and this one particular situation, I, that community, I had responsibility of reporting to the largest segment of the community, which was located in an area where the local government offices were, where the Tribal Council met. There was another part of the community that was located far up on their reservation which was a kind of an isolated remote location, but they also, they had, they were a very traditional area. They were populated by a very traditional, the most traditional people of the community. And it was a significant, it was a significant, in terms of numbers. |
| [15,34] In terms of political influence they were very large. But I had no problems at the bigger community, with the exception of one. My commitment to time and my need for time, I had to, I was reminded very simply by one of the elders who was sitting here just to my left. He noticed, I, and it was a situation where I had to make, I had responsibility to make this report, and then get up to the upper part of the community to make that report that same evening. And so, in, I was getting a little anxious, and the meeting was going on a little longer than they intended, and so, I started looking at my watch to remind myself that I had to get up there and I had to find some way to get out of this meeting and get up there. Well one of the elders had a, who became a very close friend of mine, and a very good supporter for the program, at a break, at a slight break in what was going on, said to me, very quietly, "Morrie if you really need to go somewhere you should go, don't worry about it." And so, that was a lesson, that was lesson, you know, you; it's in poor taste to show, you know, that kind of behavior publicly. You know, you just grin and bear it, you know, and if you don't make it, you don't make it, if you make it that's fine. But, personal display of that kind of behavior is not anything that somebody's going to chew you out about or criticize you for, but it is something that they'll find some way to make a comment to you. |
| [15,35] And then in the situation where I had regular responsibilities to move up on the more traditional part of the reservation at another meeting, I was reminded again that my role, and some old traditional attitudes and belief systems of the reservation, when a number of the more traditional people got up and very pointedly asked to the person from, the tribal representative, who had responsibility that I reported to on a regular basis, why we needed a Klamath person up here to tell them how to run their business. And of course, by that time I had also learned that because I don't respond to those kinds of questions, I was told, that all I had do was not respond at all and not even display any, any outward shock or concern for that kind of question, because it was point blank and right in my face. But I just sat and I said, "well I can't answer that question, but you'll have to ask one of your, the tribal people that I have to work with." Well immediately that opened the door for a high-ranking tribal official to stand up and provide support and advocacy for the job that they were asking me to do, but also, reminded that small group of people of what my role was and what my job was. |
| [15,36] He also did something that was, he also did something normally would not happen, but he was a little more aggravated and concerned than I thought he was at that particular time. He publicly, I guess, criticized, but he did it in such a fashion, of the group, he reminded them about what, how we're supposed to be dealing with each other, particularly how we deal with visitors. He thought it was disrespectful, is the word that he used, to expose another tribal member to that kind of behavior, that type of thing. And he did it so quickly and succinctly, but yet so calmly, that everything just stopped at that particular point in time. I was asked to go ahead and continue my presentation. Those are the kinds of lessons, it's just like, you know, we, in coalition meetings, or meetings with state agencies, with other tribal members, we have to remind ourselves occasionally. I did that with a Commission on Indian Services. I had to remind, we have some people, even within tribal governments who are very willing to give other tribes advice as to how they should be running their governments. And that's, you know, I learned that's something that you don't want to become involved in. That it's ok for you to make a comment about your own tribe; as far as, making comments or offering suggestions for other tribes, that's something that generally should not happen. |
| [15,37] And I've on occasion had to remind the total group that was in attendance that, that we really appreciate their comments and their suggestions, but ultimately the Klamath will have to be the tribe that'll make those kinds of decisions. And that's so, you know, those are lessons in cultural mores that I had to relearn in moving back and working as a professional person. And I've seen many professionals, Indian and non-Indian alike who've come in, who never learned those lessons. And they eventually wound up not being very successful and fulfilling their job responsibilities while they were there. And it doesn't matter whether you have a degree of a PhD or a BS or BA, you're expected eventually to learn those lessons when you move within the tribal community. That's what I have to tell about, say and share with prospective teachers in working with students in most reservation communities: you have to learn those lessons. And the only way you can learn those lessons, is out of sense of respect. If you really respect the people that you're working with, you're going to take the time to find out the no-no's as well as those things that you can do successfully, within tribal. If you don't take the time to do that, then you're never going to be able, in most cases, to fulfill your intent to educate those young folk. That's a critical part that's also in true in working with tribal populations, at the tribal operations level. |
| [15,38] And so, I was, I really think that the professional education that garnered over the years as a classroom teacher and my educational specialist experiences, and eventually when I retired in 1988, I moved in a new role as consultant to tribes and to educational agencies in the field of education, and I think the, I think that they've been, it's my assessment, at this particular point, because I've gotten a lot of feed back from the people that I work with, that have lead me believe that I've been, it's been of some benefit to the people that I've been asked to work with. And my experiences over the long run, I look back with, with fond recollection, I feel very positive and good about where I've been and what I've done, but it's only because I went back and took the time to relearn lessons that were taught very early in my lifetime. So the value of the formal education and the professional preparation was one thing, but the fact that I was able to recapture a lot of what I grew up with on the reservation experience was, did nothing more than to complement my ability to fulfill my career, my career goals in my lifetime. Does that answer your question? |
| [15,39] Linc Kesler: Yeah, I think it, you know, addresses a really central problem for a lot of people that, you know, we hear, often hear it explained as a kind of a cliché of someone, you know who's living in two worlds, or something like that. I mean, it's become, there's, when people say it that way, there's a reality to it, but a lot of times, it's, you know, it's just a cliché. And people don't really think about what that means in just real basic operational terms. I think that's exactly what you're talking about, is just . . . |
| [15,40] Morrie Jimenez: Yeah, it's one of the lessons that I've learned as a result of all my experiences in life, and it's really interesting. I was subjected a lot of criticism by my professional peers, in the professional education field, because of the fact that I was, I can't think of the term now that they used quite often, but the fact that they were concerned about all the jobs that I've had in my lifetime, and the fact that, "Morrie, you'll never find Morrie in the same place for very long," and that type of thing. And that used to bother me, and it used to anger me. And on several occasions with some of my professional peers, I've reacted openly to those questions, and hopefully in a positive manner, but at the same time, I haven't always been the calm, collected Morrie that you see in front of you. I did go through a period of hostility and anger, primarily, that had to do with a growing awareness of what's happened to tribal people over the years, and a growing awareness also, about where we need to go and what we need to do in order to, to change our life experiences. |
| [15,41] But I've learned to deal with that and the criticism about my moving. That term almost, anyway, moving from job to job and never settling down doesn't bother me. It hasn't bothered me for quite awhile now because I look at, I look at it, my personal life experiences from a different perspective than they do. I worked with people who are very content to stay in the same building in the same grade level for their whole career. I know a lot of people like that. I've, or people that have a different focus than what I have. I feel myself very fortunate that my life experiences have moved me from one teaching experience at one level to another to, with state agencies, to the Oregon tribes, to the colleges and university systems, to collations of lay and professional people, because in the long run, it's reinforced the background that's a requisite to my being of any value to my community and to other communities. |
| [15,42] Linc Kesler: Yeah, it's an interesting paradox that exactly, the circumstances that really create something different that you can bring back as a set of skills, which is your mobility, the fact that you moved around in a bunch of different environments and understand something about each one of them and how to move between them, is also, it sounds like it's kind of a source of suspicion for people, at first anyway, 'til they see they see where you're coming from at least. |
| [15,43] Morrie Jimenez: And continues to be, even with those people that I spent so many years with in individual teaching situations, on the rare occasions, anymore that I run into them in a social group of one type or another. |
| [15,44] Linc Kesler: It's still back into that? |
| [15,45] Morrie Jimenez: Yes, still, they still get back into that. |
| [15,46] Linc Kesler: So is your conclusion based on that, that, at least during the sort of time frame of your work life, that that just was really part of the territory, that whether it was frustrating or not, it's sort of what was there to contend with? |
| [15,47] Morrie Jimenez: Took me a long while to arrive at that, but you're right. That's the conclusion that I arrived at eventually. That was all a part of the life experiences. And so I, you know, the Chinese have a word, Asian, many of the Asian cultures have a word for that I really like, but it says, that's fate. You know, that's destiny. |
| [15,48] Linc Kesler: Right. |
| [15,49] Morrie Jimenez: And, I can look back at it now, much easier now, and accept it as a part of that kind of process, than I was when I was younger, and when I was involved in all that experience. There was a great deal of frustration that I was feeling the longer I spent away from home. I think I shared that. And the frustration had to do with trying to define my role, you know, that was a question: "what is my role, is it to be classroom teacher? I'm never going to be able to back to my own community and share," that type of thing, "what value is this to my community?" kind of thing, and I eventually was able to answer those questions too, and utilize the same process in trying to explain this feeling among my professional peers, that there's a reason for that, you know, you have to look at your experiences, and you have to look at, even the frustrations as learning situations, that what it's done in the long run, of course, is easier for me now at the age I am now, to look back and ascertain in my own mind, there was a purpose. There was a purpose. And I think in the long run, that's been of great benefit to me to travel the path that I traveled. As my aunt put it, you know, that we all have to travel those paths, and those paths are not always going to be easy, and they're not always going to be level; the playing field's not always going to be level. |
| [15,50] The true test of mankind in, as I learned it, was your ability to approach the ups and downs in life and get through that, and eventually complete your circle your life having successfully, having successfully gotten through that period of time, and the ups and downs can be very serious, and in some cases can be very critical, and I look back on those points in my life where I approached critical stages several times but it, and it not only had to do with my inability to deal with reality, but it also had to do with just the common everyday practice of trying to get through a teaching career, a consulting career, working for the, a management career, that type of thing, and ultimately, like I say, I can look back on that now and say I was fortunate. I had a lot, a lot of help along the way, and the professional help and the formal training was, have been a tremendous value to me, and I can look back now and identify those people at every level, who've contributed to that, very strong individuals. I can also look back and, and remember those people, in fact, in many cases I can't remember the names of those people, who did very little, who contributed very little in any positive fashion, but now I'm at stage where I can do that much easier than I could in the past. |
| [15,51] Linc Kesler: So, if you were speaking to someone who was near the beginning of this process, where they've been away for awhile, they've acquired a set of skills which is of potential use, perhaps who are even being told that's desirable, but then as they return to the community, they run into all of these various attitudes, and sometimes even the people who sort of wanted them to come back are ones who are now giving them some real mix, really mixed signals about how their viewing those skills from possibly from outside, you know, from some other location. What would you tell them to do? |
| [15,52] Morrie Jimenez: I would tell them, you know, what I wanted to say today to Denny, I didn't have the time to do, the young man that I spoke of, talked about, who had approached me with his dilemma, and what I said to him very briefly in, I wanted to visit with him a little more, is that regardless of where you want to go in your life, if you want to continue your professional education and pick up that extra degree, do it. Go and do it and accomplish that, and, once you've finished that part of your formal education, and you step out in the real world, then you start another educational process, and if you keep that in mind, that you've stepped into a new educational process, and your goal in life then becomes again, a process of relearning, learning new techniques, learning new strategies, learning new ways of dealing with people. And if you keep in mind, if you keep in mind that, everything that you accomplished up to this particular point in time, and I can say this to this young man because I've got to know him personally, and so I like to be around him, that means one thing, that he's learned already some of the real important lessons in life. |
| [15,53] He's very respectful of others opinions. He's very respective of other people as people. He's learned that, he's learned also to listen very, very well, and he's a person that listens to a person like myself, an old duffer like myself, but he's learned the other critical lesson, to, that communication is a two-ways process. That if in fact, communication is going to take place, meaningful communication, that there has to be a give and take, and that, in order for you to accomplish that, you've got also, not only, you've got to also be a really good listener, and that's a part of the respect process, and then the other part of the process is, you need to be able to relate to the people that you want to work with in a fashion that'll allow both of you to benefit from the experience. So that there has to be a level of relevancy that is, that is an inclusive one that allows a give and take on that level. I know his, I've got to know his family, I've got to know his brother, I've got to know a cousin. I've got to know his mother and his sister, and so that I, that a part of the process, when I meet with him is that's one of the first things that I do, is say, "how's your family?" And we get into that, get into that situation, and you've got to be, you've got to move forward with an open mind, and that's what, and that's what I say to teachers today. |
| [15,54] In, whenever I work with prospective teachers, and I've been asked to give those same kinds of strategies. You've got to have an open mind, and you've got to set your personal perceptions aside until such time as you take the time to find out whether that perception is valid or not, and again, the only way you're going to arrive at that stage is to have, is through a respectful manner that would allow both of you to benefit from the relationship that you're trying to establish with your students. And so those are the kinds of things, and the, you've got to understand, this also related to the respect aspect, is that you're perception of what's of greatest value to your program, or to your goals as a teacher may not be in line with the individual's goals, or expectations, and then you have to go a step beyond that. They, most of those people, come from families who may be even further departed from that. So you've got to take the time to, you've got to understand and give that person the opportunity to share. And that becomes a critical job when you're working with a classroom of twenty-five, or now today thirty and forty and fifty students, and you, and teachers are more prone to say, "how can I accomplish that, you know, given the situation that we're involved in with all the students, and with all the barriers, potential barriers and limitations that we're asked to develop?" |
| [15,55] And as something, my only, like to this young man, you want to go forward with your professional education, do it. If you just realize this is just another step in your total educational process, and that when step into that new, in that new learning experience, that you operate in the same fashion that you have right now, and my perception of this young man is that he's always going to able to operate at that same level, because he's learned how to do that at a very young level. The most difficult people I have, the most difficult people I work with, who are not willing to accept their new experiences as a new learning experience, and who are more intent of establishing their particular values and belief systems and practices and procedures, and in working with tribal government, that's the one thing that I had to relearn. |
| [15,56] Yeah, I have all these ideas of what's proper practice and proper procedure, but that may not necessarily meet their needs as a staff member for a youth education program K through 5, or 6 through 12, given their particular situations, in terms of the schools that they have to work with, and the resources that have to work with. And so in order for me to put together a valid plan for them, that has to be built into the plan in such a fashion that, that it's understandable to their program manager and to them as staff members, and so, that's what I would say, and I say quite often to young people, is that every experience, new experience is a learning experience, and sometimes we have to learn new methodologies, new strategies, and we have to take, consider new attitudes and new values, if in fact we're going to be of any assistance to those people that have asked us to work with them. |
| [15,57] Linc Kesler: Well thank you very much. |
| [15,58] Morrie Jimenez: Sure. |
|
Session 16 |
| [16,1] Linc Kesler: I guess we could just start by, would you like to talk a little bit about what things were like when you were growing up, maybe, as a way of starting or . . . |
| [16,2] Delphine Jackson: Yeah, I think I probably there should be some personal history about myself, and usually when I talk to a class that's what I do, introduce myself, and then, let them know my background. So, want me to go ahead and just get started? |
| [16,3] Linc Kesler: Oh yeah that would be great. |
| [16,4] Delphine Jackson: Ok. I'm Delphine Jackson, I am from the Klamath Reservation, but I'm from the Modoc Tribe, and I was raised by my grandfather, Boyd Jackson, Sr., and his second wife, and I always have to explain this, because if I don't it's very confusing: my grandfather was married and had twelve children before his second marriage and he then separated, got a divorce, and was asked at that time to return to the reservation. Now he raised his family down in Arcata, California. That's where his first wife, Claire Jackson, was raised and she was from that area. She also has become quite well known, with the people in Klamath area because, even though got a divorce, she always kept the name as Mrs. Jackson. She was known as Mrs. Jackson and as she aged, she became known as Grandma Jackson, in the area. |
| [16,5] So, when my grandfather returned to the reservation, he was in his fifties, and they had asked him to help with some of the tribal affairs. They were having difficulties, and so he agreed, and they elected him as a delegate for the tribe, and as delegate of the tribe, then he went back to Washington D.C., and it was on one of these trips that he met his second wife. She's from the east; first wife was Indian, the second wife was not, she was German. She was German, from Philadelphia, and at this time, my mother and father got together. My father was my grandfather's second oldest son, and my mother was the second oldest daughter on my mother's side, and they got together, they had me, and both of them died before I was three. When my mother died, my relatives on my mother's side took care of me. I was here and there with different family members, and eventually, they couldn't take care of me, and I ended up in the orphanage outside of Oregon City, and the superintendent, knowing my grandfather, called him or telegraphed him, and told him that I was in an orphanage, and it was at that time that he and his second wife, Margaret, she become my adopted mother, and she was Marge to me. |
| [16,6] So, they decided to adopt me, and basically, I became my grandfather's thirteenth child, and I never realized this until just not long ago. They, they both were very intent upon education, it was a value of both of them, and so because my grandfather had to go back and forth from Washington D.C. with the delegate work, you know, for the tribe, they decided to place me, once I was of school age, to place me in a Catholic school in Klamath Falls, and that was my home for the next, basically twelve years. I went home on the weekends when they were in the Klamath area and in the summer time, but there were a couple summers I had to stay at the school and some weekends I had to stay at the school. So I got to know Sacred Heart Academy quite well. So, he was my grandfather and she was my adopted mother, and I called her Marge, didn't call her mother, because he was my grandfather, couldn't very well call her mother when he was my grandfather, and she was twenty years younger. So, this is the way I would tell people about myself, because they just didn't make sense if I, you know, I just call them grandfather and mother. So she was Marge, and they wondered why I called her Marge, and so, this part of my story had to be told and I usually tell it to let people know why I do what I do, and how I relate to the people that became my family, and they basically were my family. |
| [16,7] A lot of what I know, and what I've learned about being American Indian came through my grandfather, and I can appreciate it now. We lived on the reservation, actually we lived at the old Agency, Klamath Agency. There was, we had a home right there at the Agency. So I knew the Agency quite well, and we had our home there and we had our life there, and my grandfather, Gramps, I called him Gramps, he had his lifestyle, and one thing that he did do that became part of my life, was that he went hunting almost every weekend, and usually he took his sons. His family followed him back to the reservation even though they were raised down in California, and there was a nice, large home that he had built for them down in California. They eventually returned to the reservation, and so, and they often needed help from him, and even in the line of food. They did not have an education. I don't know, I think maybe one of the younger ones, graduated from high school, but that was the limit of their education. |
| [16,8] His education was at the Indian School in Arizona. He was the youngest of four children, and he was taken from his home when he was five years old and sent to Arizona, and he would talk about it every once in awhile, and he said that he remembers being driven, buckboard, from Sprague River where his family lived and, I should say that his mother's Sally Jackson, and his father was Ike Jackson, and they were reservation Indian people. But he was the youngest and he was selected as the one to go away to school. He remembers the ride from Sprague River to Lakeville which is now Klamath Falls, and he remembers catching the stagecoach from Lakeville to San Francisco and he said that was the longest, hardest ride he ever had. For a five year old, you can imagine, and from San Francisco he took the train to Arizona, and he spent most of his life there. He didn't have the money to go back and forth, and so, that took him away, and it was designed purposely that way, took him from the reservation, took him from his family. He no longer spoke his language and I think this is typical of most the, our Indian people who had this same experience. |
| [16,9] When I wanted to ask him about his language, or our language, he never wanted to speak the language, he didn't want to share it. Once in awhile when he was in his eighties, he would tell me a few stories, and I knew he spoke his language, when he said his prayers, and he said his prayers every morning, and he would say it in his language, and just a few years before he died, he began to sing some of the old songs. But generally, he didn't want to, want to share that and I think it's because it, they were told that, they were taught that it wasn't any value to them. There was several anthropologists from the University of Oregon, or several people from the University of Oregon who came to interview him at several times, and he would tell me, you know, "this is who it is; they're coming to the house," and they want to talk to him, and he would share facts and information about the reservation, but he didn't share very many personal things. But only about tribal, things about the various laws and things that he knew and he was interested in, that was primarily what he would share. |
| [16,10] Ok, now I think that basically, I kind of set you up about who I am. It fits, interestingly it fits right into, it goes right into the Termination era because I graduated in 1956, and because I went to a Catholic school, I had the language and I had the required classes to go on to college. I wasn't asked if I was going to go on to college until my senior year, just before I graduated. I had no intent of going on to college. I didn't know anybody who did go on to college, and knowing my grandfather, who was doing quite well and understood all the various legal aspects, and he could talk with lawyer and etcetera, I really didn't see any value of going on to college. But I was asked and I was prepared, indirectly to go to college, and when they asked me if I was going to college, I said I didn't intend to, and one of his sisters said, well why not? And I said, well I just, didn't think about it, and didn't think there was any reason for me to go to college, because basically I thought that I would do what I had seen my aunts and other people on the reservation, females, do on the reservation, and that is basically get married, have children and raise a family, and I was toldß that I should consider it. |
| [16,11] Well, I had some friends who had graduated a year before me, who went to Marylhurst College, and so when I started thinking about a college, I thought well, why not go to some place where I knew someone, at least, and it was during the time, '56 is when the Termination was in process, and part of the Termination program was an educational segment, in which there was monies to pay for education, secondary education, and so, there was money for me to go to college as long as I was accepted, and I was. Then, it took care of my financial situation. So I went on to Marylhurst College, and not realizing that the money was going to me through from the Termination program, I just knew that there was monies for me to go on, and I stayed there, I was capable of struggling through, and the year that I graduated in 1960, the funding ended. So it just seemed as if there was something in my life that was taking care of me, or I was meant to do whatever I was doing. |
| [16,12] After I graduated I returned to the reservation and to my home, my grandfather was getting up his years. In fact, I think by that time he had one stroke. My adopted mother, Marge she was also getting up in her years, and they got so that they were kind of depending on me to be around, and my major in college was commercial art. Now when I went to college, I had no idea what I was going to major in, and when I was at Sacred Heart, I took art classes. I had a choice between music or art, and I just kind of naturally went to the art area and of course I knew I was interested in music, but I knew that the music at the academy was all classical, and I couldn't quite see myself in one of those little rooms practicing the scales, what I heard outside constantly, so I made the choice of going into art. So when I went to college, I thought, "why not? They have art, and I majored in art, general art first, and when I could see the direction it was going, fine art, I decided that I would starve to death, trying to support myself in the fine art field, and so I switched over into commercial art, and I was asked, "now what about art education?" I took a couple of the classes and it just didn't seem to be something that I was really interested in, so I stayed with the commercial art. |
| [16,13] Well after I graduated, the federal government had a program called a Relocation Program, in which they took individuals on the reservation, and I was back on the reservation by that time, and would pay your way to a large city. Having my background in art, I thought San Francisco might be an area that I might find something. So I went to San Francisco, and under the Relocation Program, when you got there, they would find a place for you to live, usually had an area where quite a few Indian people would go into. We were in kind of like a hotel, a small hotel, and seems to me, it was called "Post something," it was on Post Street in San Francisco, close to downtown, the downtown area. They paid for your room and your board and then you had an advisor who would work with you, who would help you look for jobs. The whole idea was to help you get situated and get a job in San Francisco. Your insurance was paid and basically you didn't have to worry about anything. |
| [16,14] Well, I don't know how many months I was there, perhaps, one maybe two months, I don't know if it was quite that long, but during that whole time I was interviewing, and it didn't take me long to find out that my liberal arts, commercial art program didn't really provide me with the kind of art experiences that regular commercial art schools provided their students with in the San Francisco area, and I was told I couldn't really compete. But I did a lot of interviewing because the woman, I believe her name was Mrs. Green, told me that a lot of people would interview American Indians just to see them, to see what an American Indian looked like, and with my Bachelors Degree I found that there were a lot of people who wanted to talk with me, and I had a lot of interviews. I'll never forget the one was in, with a large furniture store in San Francisco downtown, and I don't remember how many stories high, but the main office where I had the interview was on the top floor, and I can remember walking into this huge room and at the other end was this huge desk and two men were sitting in there, and it was obvious they wanted to know what an American Indian with a Bachelor's Degree in Commercial Art looked like, and I went through the whole process again, of giving my experience and etc., and they didn't have a place for me. |
| [16,15] By that time, Mrs. Green and I said that it didn't look like I was going to get anything in my field that I would really like to get, and I started going for some positions at the level of department store window dressing, at the level of the five and dime stores and etc. I didn't have much experience in that area, but I went through the, again all the interviews. Nothing was happening, and Mrs. Green who lived over in Sausalito, California, said, you know, there's a restaurant called Juanita's over on the bay area, and they're looking for someone, would you want to be a waitress? And I told her that I thought about what was happening and I thought that what I probably needed to do was go back and get an, a degree in education, 'cause I could see that I wasn't going to get anywhere with what I had, and with that in mind I told her, I said, well, "why not?" You know, get some kind of experience, and she said well, Juanita's is a very unique kind of bohemian hippie type of place and lot of the, people who, folk singers, Kingston Trio-type of people came in, and Juanita helped a lot of them, and she said "it's very unique," that you have the regular fisherman coming in, but you also, and in the evening time you had these hippie type people but also, you had some of the upper class Sausalito people coming in. She says, "it's a very interesting situation." I said, "well why not?" |
| [16,16] So I started working at Juanita's. I was there for about three weeks when the payment of the Termination of our people came in, and it was interesting to be around non-Indian people who also had an opinion about this money, and I found that when I would ask them, or somebody would ask them if they got $43,000 what they would do with it, and I would say a good majority, good 80% at least, would say "I'd spend it." So with that, you know, response, well that's no different than what the Indian people are doing, they're spending it, and it may not be the way they would spend it, the non-Indian people, but that's what the Indian people did, they spent it, and, I just want to throw that in, about you know, how where I was at the time, how that was what was happening around me. Now I wasn't a part of that. With the Termination, you had a choice of either terminating completely or staying as part of a remaining group, and that remaining group would then go, would have the U.S. Bank as a trustee. |
| [16,17] Well my grandfather never did believe in terminating. He had quite a few opinions about Termination when the whole issue came up. He felt that that our Indian people were far from being ready to terminate, , because he said, it's taken generations for us to get where we are right now, and he felt that the federal government has been in control the whole time, and he felt that for our people to be able to take care of ourselves, it's going to take that many more generations to be able to be self-sufficient, do what the federal government is doing for us now, and the story he told me, he said, it's like a man and son in car and the man's been driving the car the whole time, and then one day he stops and says "ok, now you drive." And he says, "we're not ready to drive, and twenty years isn't long enough." So he never did believe in Termination, and so when the voting came about, he definitely decide to be part of the remaining group, and his family, most of his children, and I was of voting age by that time, and I voted to stay as a remaining member. So, we weren't a part of that payment, the group that got the big payment, the $43,000 at that time. |
| [16,18] So I wasn't concerned, and people around me that knew I was American Indian wanted to know what tribe I was and why I wasn't getting any money, but I told them the reason why, and that I wasn't getting $43,000. Well, I stayed on the reservation after graduation, for a good ten years, and one of things I did, since I wasn't willing to work in an office, I didn't want to be in an office, I worked on a, the fire lookouts in the summer time, and often those summers were not just a few months, they could start in the early May, and go right on into August, September. I got to know the reservation quite well. I drove to my lookouts and I read the maps. I got to know what area was our land, and it was sad for me to think that the land would no longer be ours in a few years, and I knew for me, that it was definitely a loss that I don't think our people would ever regain. Things would change no matter what, even if there was a small piece of land that we could hang on to, and we were on a piece of land at the time, that it wasn't the reservation as my grandfather knew it. |
| [16,19] And when I was younger, my grandfather used to say, tell me, when we were driving down the road, "this is the way it used to be," and being young, I couldn't care about the way it used to be, but I'm in that position now. I go down to the reservation, and anyone's who's with me, I could tell them, this is not the way it was, and I can now understand why he would speak of the land and speak of the people as it used to be, because now I have a lot of feeling about the way it used to be, and that'll never be the same, that the land's, much of it, from the Chiloquin area to the old Agency, is now all bought by individuals and there're small homes all the way over there, where there was none before. It was just open timber and you know, and roads in which I could pull off, when I had a car that could do it, I could pull off into any dirt road and go off into the woods, and wanders through the woods and come out different areas, and I could make a long route to the Agency. Those were the good old days. I could do that. |
| [16,20] I can't do that nowadays, to my lookout. I used to be able to go, well, not to my lookout, but I used to be able to go hunting out in the woods, and the first time I went back after the termination, and the Forest Service took over, this was after all the land was sold and the Forest Service then took over the land, I was amazed how new roads were put in, the old roads that I used to know were not, they were no longer there, and I actually got lost. I'd never gotten lost before, in the dark you know. It was really upsetting because it was something that I knew almost like the back of my hand, and then they go in and then wonder where I was, and I think perhaps, this is how the Termination effected our people. One time we knew where were, we had a land, we had a lifestyle, we had families and once the termination came, it, it was different, and I feel that a lot of people, lot of our people got lost, and I think their children are lost right now, because they didn't have what we had. And I'm going to stop right now (laughs). |
| [16,21] Linc Kesler: When you think back to a part of that loss, the way you just described has to do with the way the landscape changed, and the way you know, the new road system came in. There must have been other changes in the landscape too, but then also changes in what was there in terms of the people. So, I don't know, is there, when you think back on that time now, it's clear that you really have that sense of it having changed in a way that was not reversible, not easily reversible, but I'm wondering if there's anything you'd add to the description of what the quality of the change was. And you know, was it land, was it the people, was it the interaction between the people and the area? |
| [16,22] Delphine Jackson: Well, yeah, I don't think that the younger generations today can even begin to imagine what kind of lifestyle we had. The road that I went out to one of my lookouts, Applegate Lookout, Applegate was almost in the middle of the reservation, and as I went out there, I went by different ranches that belonged to our Indian people, the Achemans, these were our people, and you go out into the forest and there was a, you'd go by Buckhorn Springs and the Wrights, generally their family had their summer camps out there, and you go out to the head of the mountain, head of the river and that's where my grandmother had her camp, just below Yamsay Mountain. So the people, was a part of that landscape. It was, wasn't just you know, the mountain tops and etc., so it definitely had, not only the, like you were pointing out, not only the landscape, but the people were a part of that, and that's why the loss is not just of the land, and of the timber, and the freedom, the freedom for an individual, a Klamath to go on the reservation, drive through the reservation, drive practically anything, anywhere you wanted to go. |
| [16,23] You'd go up to woods and the roads were not paved. They were basically just dirt roads, and you were out in the wild. You'd see animals, deer, porcupine; they were in the wild, and you don't, I don't think you quite see the same even if you go out into, into one of our forest areas, it wasn't quite the same idea because forestry you have your gravel-paved roads somewhat, you know. But we didn't have that: they were just dirt roads, and I can remember the one time my grandfather and my uncle and I were out hunting, and we were driving along a road, along a road, and my grandfather told my uncle, he says, "turn right here," and my uncle looked at him, you know, like "what," because you'd look out the window and you had manzanita brush and you know, and there's obvious road where you turned off to, and Gramps said, "yeah, you just turn right there; my uncle says, "well ok," and he goes over through this brush, and sure enough, after a short ways, there was a road back there, and so, he knew the country quite well, and that's part of, you know, of what we knew and what I learned, you know, from my grandfather, that various nooks and crannies that a lot of people didn't know about. When we went hunting sometimes some people would like to know, "where did you go" (laughs), and he wasn't always willing to tell them, and a lot of times I wasn't able to tell them. |
| [16,24] That was when I was younger. When I became older I learned a lot of the roads, and that's why I say that once they started putting in these graveled areas, and these, they were like freeways compared to what we had. I hit one red cinder road, and I started to follow it, and it just ended. That was it, and you know, that never happened to us, you know: we usually were able to follow a road around or catch another road, you know. But to just have it end was something that was a little beyond me, and so going back to the changes, I'm sure that I was a bit frustrated, but I'm sure that there animals and deer, because we didn't, did deer hunting and we knew where a lot of the trails were, you know, and when those roads took out some of those areas, I'm sure that the animals were somewhat frustrated too. Because it really did change the landscape in some ways. |
| [16,25] When I was on the lookout, I would watch the animals and the birds and I was on a fly way from Klamath, Upper Klamath Lake, they'd come over Steiger Butte, Chiloquin and, and Solon Butte(?) and come on up past my lookout and then on up to the marsh, and those are the kinds of things that became part of my life, that I became aware of, and I knew, and once the land was terminated, you know, they did some, they put a big highway across the marsh, and again the land changed even for the birds, because a lot of that marsh area was taken out, was drained out, because of the, what they were building, and so, I feel for the animals as well as for our own people, because I know that the environment changed. |
| [16,26] Linc Kesler: I know that later in your life you went overseas for quite a few years, and you were living in Guam, and that must been a really big change to go so far away, and especially to stay there for such a long time, but it must have been a big change coming back after that kind of passage of time. You said you came back to take care of a relative. What was that like? What was it like going so far, and what was it like coming back? By that time, you'd also gone back to school and done educational work. |
| [16,27] Delphine Jackson: Yeah, well it just seems like I could talk forever, so much of it. The reason I went to Guam was that a good friend of mine, I'd met her at grad school here at Oregon State in our master's program, she was married to a Guamanian and she lived on Guam, and we kept in touch. Her two sons were going here to Oregon State and she'd come in the summer time and we would meet. She would, she worked in the school system and she would talk about the Chimoros, the local people, and I would talk about the American Indians, and we'd compare notes. She was a counselor there, and I was working at the community college level, and I worked with foreign students, but part of the segment of the foreign students, they put the islanders in with the foreign students, and so, I would talk to her about some of the difficulties the islanders seemed to have, and she would talk about, again, the Chimoros and I would talk about the Indians. |
| [16,28] One time she made a statement, she says, "Guam sounds like a floating reservation," and that really intrigued, and I told her, "you know, there's a lot that I don't know about other cultures. Because I'm a minority doesn't mean that I know a lot about other people, especially other minorities, and she says, "come to Guam." She says, "Guam, the basic language is English, and you don't have to learn other languages, and you can learn." And she said, "they're going, the University of Oregon, the University of Guam and Guam Education Department are developing a program in which they're going to bring a doctorate program to the island." Well I always thought that I would, when I graduated with my master's, I thought if the opportunity ever came I would pursue a doctorate, and again, it's from my grandfather that I pursued my education. He always felt that education was vital for our people, and so, after he died, or just before he died I was able to get a position at Central Oregon Community College, and I started working with the Indian students there, and I was recruiting and an advisor and counselor at the community college level, and a lot, not a lot them, but I met students who were very capable, had good GPA's and I would look at, I would talk with them and look at their GPA's and say, "you know, there's no reason why, not only can you earn a degree, a bachelor's, but I'm sure that you could go on and get a master's, perhaps even a doctorate." |
| [16,29] But I didn't know what it was, what a master's meant, and I had no idea what a doctorate was all about. A director, a couple of directors, one of them had earned his master's at Harvard, and another was pursuing, was going to go on for his doctorate at Stanford. So, I knew these individuals and I knew some of our Indian people were doing just that, going on for a higher degree, and after the program, the funding, it was a soft money program at the community college, and after that was depleted, then I thought that I would perhaps go on, and by this time I had some money from our termination, from the final termination, and that paid for my master's, and that's where I met my friend and she invited me to Guam and said they were having a doctorate program there, taken there, and so I thought, it sounds like an opportunity for me. Again, I knew now what it was like to pursue a master's, but I didn't know anything about a doctorate yet, and so, I took her up on it, and I said, "ok." |
| [16,30] She says, "I guarantee you a job," and that amazed me. It's a different lifestyle over there. When I got over there, I wasn't able to find anything right away, and she says, "oh let's go to Governor" (laughs). I said "what?" She says, "sure I know the Governor. I know his wife quite well. Let's go to talk with them." And when the school year started, I was working at JFK High School at Guam, on the island. I stayed there for one year, and a position opened at Guam Community College and from then on I was at Guam Community College, and the University of Oregon brought a doctorate program over, under the stipulations that the program was going to be for the local people, and the local people said, "number one, we cannot afford to quit our jobs to pursue a doctorate. So we would need a program that would provide classes for us while we were still working." |
| [16,31] So it all worked out where the professors from the University of Oregon went the island of Guam and taught classes. So we had a regular workday and then we took classes after work, and then we did our summer classes and the required residency, we come over here at the University of Oregon. So I stayed there, I came back to Klamath in the summer time when it was possible, because when I came in, you know, with the, in the program, I'd come over in the summer time, but I didn't have time to go Klamath because I was busy with my classes. But once in a while I would sneak down to Klamath and see my aunt, Auntie Tecumseh. Well, I stayed there seven years, and by that time, I was ready to come home, and I returned and, I'm trying to think of, I starting applying for jobs, and it was really interesting. By that time, the community college system had changed quite a bit, and I ended up working at Chimawa Indian School. One of my friends who graduated from Oregon State was working there at time, and said, "we have a position opening, why don't you apply?" And so, I started working at Chimawa and I was there almost two years, before the position opened here. That's what brings me here. |
| [16,32] Now, going back, when I returned in '91, and I finally drove down, had some time to visit Klamath, it just amazed me, it started from Chemult right on down 97, because I knew the route. I knew the places, I knew the trees, I knew where, you know, the highway. We used to take the old highway by Fort Klamath, up the grade and you turned off from 97 just below Chemult, turn off and go down, and so I knew that road and I knew the area, but it was just amazing. Evidently there was some kind of a blight in the timber, the lodge pole, and everything was open. When years ago, when I used to drive down 97, it was like a corridor, it was dark, timber, heavy timber on both sides, and now, when I looked through the trees, I could see the hills and the mountains, you know, that I'd never seen before, and it really began to get me. I thought, "wow, you know what's happening here?" And as I got closer to Chiloquin, I could see where many roads had changed and timber was being cut in different areas, and I knew that this was going to be different, but it was shocking, because I don't think I was really prepared to see what I saw. |
| [16,33] There was a road that I knew of above the grade, can't think of the name of the grade right now, before you dropped down into Chiloquin above Collier Park, I used to take, and it would take me back into the forest, and I could wind around and come out to the Agency, and I've never been on that road since I left in my college years. So, I don't know what it's like back there, but I can see that the road still cuts off there, but it's been years and years and I don't know if I could find my way through there now. So, when I got down to Chiloquin, I could see where many houses were being built, and I knew that a lot of our elders had died. The Wright family had a ranch, and I didn't know if it was still going to be there, and so far it's still there. I don't know if anybody lives there, but I could see that somebody in the family still has, closes the gate and takes; it hasn't changed that much. But a lot of the other places are not there, or homes had been built where a lot of other roads that we used to go back around Steiger Butte, can't do that anymore. Lots of fences, lots of fences. So you can't even go off the road and go through the areas that we used to go through. |
| [16,34] I drove into Chiloquin. I didn't know anybody there, and they didn't know me, and the old stores that used to be there, even the old tavern, it's not there anymore. So, it's completely different, completely different. There's a few signs of what used to be there, but very few and only if you're my age, you might be able to recognize them. Again, the younger generations have no idea, no idea what it was like, and even trying to explain to them I don't think makes sense to them. They only know what's there and what has been there since they've been born, and that, that's changed; it changed at Termination time; and many of them were born during or after Termination. There very little visibility as to the fact that a tribe at one time lived there. Now I know that when I was younger, people used to say, "well I went to Klamath Falls, I didn't see a reservation." And I would say, 'well there's a sign." You know, just out of Chemult there's a sign that used to say "Klamath Reservation." It wasn't a great big sign, but all you saw as you were going 97 was just timber, a lodge pole and timber, wild country, you didn't see anybody. So our people lived in, you know, like in Chiloquin, and in back out to towards Sprague River. There were farms and homes and things in that area. |
| [16,35] So, nowadays, there's no sign, I can think, I can't think of any signs indicating that this was the old Klamath Reservation. Now that the Klamath, now that our tribe are establishing themselves now and they have some buildings there in Chiloquin it's a little different. But when I returned there was nothing, and it was kind of sad, and it was kind of sad because I didn't know where everybody was, didn't know where they lived, didn't know where my aunts and uncles lived. I didn't even know, if I saw an Indian on street, I didn't know who they were, and especially if they were young, I didn't know who their family was, and even if they told me sometimes I didn't know. I'd been gone so long that I couldn't really make that connection. Now I lived on the reservation, but I didn't actually live with the Indian people because I was living with the non-Indians in the Catholic School. So there's a part of my background that I can't share with some of my own generation, with those lived, who lived in Chiloquin, who went to Chiloquin High School. There's an area that I don't know about. |
| [16,36] Linc Kesler: Now, I'm sorry but we've reached the end of our tape. |
| [16,37] Delphine Jackson: Did? (laughing) Ok, I can relax? Ok. |
| [16,38] Linc Kesler: Thank you. |
| [16,39] Delphine Jackson: You're welcome. |
|
Session 17 |
| [17,1] Linc Kesler: You were mentioning that when you were a kid you used to, kind of build things like this all the time, out of . . . |
| [17,2] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, they'd been like downsize what we'd call, what we'd call a foxhole these days. We'd hand dig them and there'd be two to three teams of boys. There would be two to a foxhole and they'd be around in the field where they had a lot of dirt clods and that was the idea, was to build your shelter, and start bombarding each other to, you know, a game, a game of bombing each other with dirt clods, and we'd play that until we got tired or somebody got hurt and then we'd quit. So I was always around family members that were older than me that kind of taught me, guide me, as a child, all the way through fishing, gathering. Gathering came a little bit later when I got a little older. I was always on Huckleberry Mountain with my grandmother, getting chased off the hill with bees. Bees and I never got along when I was a kid. I always, as soon as I heard them I'd drop my bucket and run. But I was always there doing the huckleberries, fishing and hunting with my cousins by the dozen, uncles. At camps my aunts would be drying meat or canning some, processing something, all through the summer. So this was given to me this was given to me by birth all these, it was told to me or show'd to me. |
| [17,3] Linc Kesler: And that was all right here in this area? |
| [17,4] Ivan Jackson: Yes, Ah, the high mountain camps right now where my cousins are right now, that's where this river that's out behind us a little bit, it comes right out of the mountains where the mouth comes, springs, spring fed, and then it goes down through the fields and down towards the marsh, and there's area called Rocky Ford and those were old ancient camps and that's where we camped to do all our processing, our meats and our berries, and whatever we would gather. We'd take to those camps and we'd done that all my life. |
| [17,5] Linc Kesler: So you'd move around during the summer depending on . . . |
| [17,6] Ivan Jackson: Yes, where ever, we, wherever we're going: high mountain, we'd go to our high mountain camps and same with our deer camps and antelope camps and fish camps too. |
| [17,7] Linc Kesler: So would you be with the same people going around each time? |
| [17,8] Ivan Jackson: Yes it was family, mostly family and friends of theirs, tribal members that I can remember, that would always group up and meet every year. Not all the time the same people but most of the time, tribal members. |
| [17,9] Linc Kesler: So when would you start? What would be the first thing that you'd do? |
| [17,10] Ivan Jackson: Our first opening season would be March, that would be the chuam ceremony, the sucker ceremony, and that was the starting of our gathering season. That was a real religious ceremony, to start our gathering seasons. Then we'd disperse up to the lake, to get duck eggs, goose eggs, the ducks themselves, and then we'd fish out there, and then the elders would gather their small shoots they would use for cooking. They'd cook and eat them, like little Nettle shoots and cat tails and tules, all real edible, real sweet tasting, put in stews and everything, and after that we'd go up a little higher into the mountains and get the wild celery that we'd use for all different types of purposes. The roots were used, that's what we used ourselves for smudging, and then the plant itself was put into the food, for seasoning. |
| [17,11] Linc Kesler: And did you dry some of that, preserve it? |
| [17,12] Ivan Jackson: Yes, it was all dried. Actually the time I remember it we put everything in cans, canning jars, and they'd be put away, for later use. |
| [17,13] Linc Kesler: What about the, you were mentioning, duck eggs before, did those get preserved in some way? Or did you just eat those when they were available? |
| [17,14] Ivan Jackson: Duck eggs? |
| [17,15] Linc Kesler: Yeah. |
| [17,16] Ivan Jackson: Most of them were, excuse me, eaten right on the spot, boiled, or cooked, but things were told to me how they were preserved, was in the ground, the old way. They'd actually bury them, and they were a delicacy, for the old people. They like to have that; they'd like to have those aged eggs that were buried in that mud, and later on gathered and eaten that way. Most of them were eaten right on the spot though. |
| [17,17] Linc Kesler: Did you ever taste one of those preserved ones? |
| [17,18] Ivan Jackson: No I didn't, not when I was a child 'til, I haven't got brave enough yet either. But I've ate a lot of duck eggs, goose eggs, boiled. |
| [17,19] Linc Kesler: So, when you were moving, you said you moved back up in the mountains for celery and so forth, was it getting on towards summer about that time? |
| [17,20] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, spring had been over, summer been just peaking; we'd go into the flats to get epos, which is like an Indian nut. It's like a potato. It grows in the ground. And camas, and process and cut camas, and then we'd get wild onions and all that stuff about the same time as the celery was ready. So that would be in, like the first part of summer time, and then we had three different runs for fish, and so all through the season we'd be fishing, fishing and preparing fish, and how they'd prepare those fish was strip them right down or cut them right down the backs and put them on smoking racks and let them smoke, and then sun dried, and they were all put in, in the old days they'd have a real mesh like a net, to lay them in, but we'd use old gunny sacks and hang them up in the trees in a gunny sack and let the air dry them out, and then just hang them in the back room and then you'd just grab you a fish and chew on it, dried fish. |
| [17,21] Linc Kesler: And I bet it was pretty tasty stuff, and that was mainly the chuam? |
| [17,22] Ivan Jackson: No, that was all species, all species of fish. We had our river trout, long, long, long time ago before they built dams there was salmon in our rivers too. That was one of our main diets, salmon, there would be the steel head, they'd run with the salmon, and then our lake trout and then we'd have our German brown and then our mullet, our suckers. So they were all processed the same way. |
| [17,23] Linc Kesler: Right. Yeah, I've, ah, Morrie has described to me, that the, especially the sucker runs and how many of them there were, just how thick they were. |
| [17,24] Ivan Jackson: Pretty abundant. I've never seen, I seen quite a few when I was a young man. We'd be up on the dams, learning from the older men how to spear and gaff them, and that's exactly how we'd grab them up, as many as we could, as a little guy you couldn't pack too many of them, and take them to the elders' homes, and they'd process their own. That was one of our jobs, was to make sure all the elders got their share, whatever the young men were catching up on the dam. I learned that when I was a young man, how to use the gaff and spear. |
| [17,25] Linc Kesler: Right, and how to take care of the elders. |
| [17,26] Ivan Jackson: Yes. Always grab them a fish or some type of bait for the older men to fish or whatever. That was part of our upbringing, to see if they were going to be part of it or what. It kind of gave the elders an idea of where you're going to be sitting in society, when you get older. So, we were being taught, young people were learning. So I got to be part of that. And that's what I'm doing now. I'm trying to reconstruct everything I know, my knowledge, and make strong programs for the Klamath tribes. For the young people. To get them involved with what I'm doing here, building these earth houses and wooden boats and tule boats and even the clothes. I know the knowledge of our cordage, and how to make our cordage clothes, tule shoes, tule hats, bows, arrows, fish spears, just about everything we use. I'm reconstructing and putting it into art form and actually sharing it with the people at large, not just the tribal people. I do presentations in schools, colleges. |
| [17,27] I like teaching in grade schools, because they're the little sponges. They're the ones that really absorb it, and its been working out pretty good. But I need someone sitting right next to me. That's what I'm doing, I'm trying to build some, a culture camp. An all year-round culture camp, and that means, you know, whatever the season is I'll have some kind of project going, and I'll put it in the tribal paper and see if I can get some of the kids to actually go out in the field with me and do some field trips, and just start passing it on to them, and I already started with this cook lodge. Young four boys, tribal boys, thirteen-year old boys were walking by, fishing one day, and they got interested in what I was doing, and one day they started, putting their poles down and helping me pull rock out of here, and then I took them up and they helped me with the, putting the outer layer up. The sod and dirt, and I had them photographed, so they'd be documented, and we'll put that picture in the, either the administration building or in our new museum that we're going to build here, not too far away. |
| [17,28] Linc Kesler: This area that we're sitting in, you were telling me earlier that this was a traditional village site. But this is also where you're constructing these lodges like this one. |
| [17,29] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, this used to be a gathering site, actually a wintering site, the big lodge that's back behind us, the one that you photographed before when I was building. I actually am building one that's just, the real pit's just off the side of it and it's a thirty foot pit and so I reconstructed a thirty foot lodge, and what we're sitting at would be the second part of that lodge. This is the cooking lodge, this is the cooking area, and it's just a downsize, it's actually half the size of that one there. This is a fifteen foot and that's a thirty foot, and this is constructed the same way except its only got one hole and that's a smoke hole, and then the entrance is always built on the side going towards, where the sun came up, and the reason why was because, also the elders, this was their sleeping quarters. So it was a cooking quarter for three meals for the elders here, and also for the families that lived in the big lodge, and the elders could not get down to those ladders, so they had to have an entrance they could get in and out, built on the side. The same exact, built the same way, but just downsized and the door on the side. That's what we're doing, actually I say "we" because I had tribal members last year participate and help me build tule mats for the big lodge. This one here, we didn't use mats. We just used tree boughs, where we insulated these cooking lodges. Then every year we'll put a new layer on. |
| [17,30] Linc Kesler: So what's the tule like to work with on making something like a mat? Is it pretty hard on your hands? |
| [17,31] Ivan Jackson: No actually its pretty simple once you learn the technique. What we call the twining technique, its overlock twining. We did that technique for making our clothes, our bowstrings, our ropes, our nets just about everything our culture, was constructed with that process. Once you learn how to soak your material, the rest is pretty simple. It's just a lot of, time consuming, a lot of time put into making a mat. They're usually five by four, five foot by four foot mats and I, we, made fifty-one for that lodge there, that thirty foot lodge. Without help from the tribes I don't think I would have made it before the snow. Because I was pushing it, I was really pushing it. It was in the fall or August when I started that project. I actually made it before the first snow, and then just as soon as I finished that it snowed, and I spent the night, I built a fire and spent the night in it, just to break it in. Stayed pretty warm, real warm. I'll try this one out here. When the first layer of snow hits here, I'll fire this one up and stay a couple of days in this one too. Hopefully I'll have those boys in here too and we'll document them. They can camp out with me. Get them interested, a little bit more, participating in the projects too. |
| [17,32] Linc Kesler: You said that you built boats as well. Can you talk a little about what's involved in doing that? |
| [17,33] Ivan Jackson: The watch or the wooden boat was actually just a log that had a twist in it, and the reason why you want the twist is that so that if it started checking you could catch it and start soaking it and stop it, and how you would stop that, is that you'd sink them and until they got water soaked and then you'd set it back up out of the water and then you'd put hot rocks and water inside of it and get the water boiling and you'd take smoked fish heads and lay inside of that and just keep rubbing that down inside the boat and that would seal them. |
| [17,34] Linc Kesler: I guess, the fish is kind of a glue. |
| [17,35] Ivan Jackson: It actually would seal it and it would sink right down into the cracks and just seal it big time and after you do that, then you would pitch it, on the outside and inside. Make your pitch glue and pour it over top of that and seals it, just waterproofs it really good. |
| [17,36] Linc Kesler: Were, there any, when you were growing up were there any of those old boats like that around still? |
| [17,37] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, there were, all around in the marsh, you would see them sticking up out of the mud. They were there for a purpose. Each tribal members, the family, head of the household, had a place to keep their boats and they'd sink them in the water and they'd sink them in the water to preserve them, and it was actually just like, their identification for the family. Everybody knew where the other person's boats were, and as time went on, they were just forgotten and left out there. |
| [17,38] Linc Kesler: How, why did that happen do you think? |
| [17,39] Ivan Jackson: Progress, a lot of it was because of formal education started surfacing and giving everybody a better opportunity to take of their families and as progress started advancing on, in the reservations, there was more ranching and timber and, well, logging, and a little bit of tribal administration, but that's what I'm talking about the formal education, more or less came up as being more important than anything else. And there was a lot of it outlawed way, way before my time, our time, and so the elders were kind of reluctant to come forward with it, so they just decided to kind of keep it to the family, and then, just, you know pass it along that way. |
| [17,40] So there was a lot of, there was a lot of things that were in the way, you know. I'm just speaking from experiences you know, like when the reservation was changing in my time, there was a lot of alcohol. A whole bunch of alcohol when I was about fourteen years old, and I can remember that was even, at the elders were still around, a lot of them. They were just reluctant, they just didn't want do what I'm doing today, because they seen, they wanted a really strong structure, culture, and one way to do that, is to just keep it to their own families, to make sure, sure that it was going to be done and handled the right way. But I was pretty lucky, in my family: we're always out in the woods. I was always participating in something, and that's what I got this knowledge today and I'm passing it on. So it won't be extinct. |
| [17,41] Linc Kesler: When did you, become as actively involved in doing this as you are now? |
| [17,42] Ivan Jackson: 1990, I was asked to participate in the culture camp, it's only a two week camp and the man who asked me, said, "would you like to come up and camp up there and teach the kids?" And I said, "sure, I'd give it a try." So I took my knowledge up there, my arrow head knapping, and I built a summer camp, which is just a willow frame, and I didn't even put no tule mats on it, that year. Just two weeks, you can't do very much, so I just mimicked what I could, as fast I could, so I could have some things to teach those kids, and I took some yew wood up there and some of my hides and built a hide stretcher, and showed them how to make scrapers and knives and obsidian saws. We went on, I took a whole bunch of dried arrow shafts of up there, and I took them out and the field upon the river and told them what kind of wood we use for arrow shafts, and after they made their tools, their obsidian saws, I took them out and they cut their own green shafts, went back to camp, and I traded in their dry shafts for their green ones, 'cause it takes up to six months to dry them before you make an arrow out of the arrow shafts, and that was the first summer that I did that. |
| [17,43] And then the second summer, after explaining to them how to do a sinew-back bow, they'd already experienced making their tools and everything for their bows, or their arrows, then we sat down in a circle and I showed them how to make hide glue. We boiled hide glue right out there and we made a sinew-back bow and arrows and quiver for the Klamath tribes. |
| [17,44] Linc Kesler: And the, was that what you were using the yew wood for? For the bows? |
| [17,45] Ivan Jackson: Yes, yew wood, juniper and chokecherries were our traditional bow wood. |
| [17,46] Linc Kesler: And then the sinew on the back is to give it a, strength? |
| [17,47] Ivan Jackson: It's to give it it's strength, enough to hunt with, and also so it wouldn't break, because our bows are so short, they're not like a European long bow, they're flat and short and then they're recurved, they're stained with river moss. You build you a fire and you get hot coals going and you build a little pit and then you wrap the tip where you want to recurve your bow with river moss, wet river moss right out of the river, and stick that right in the, into the coals and they'll start steaming. Getting ahead of myself: you always have you a log with a crack in it next to you, big log with different size cracks, and then after you, just by experience, know how long to keep that limb in there, you take it out and then you put it into that crack and you start reefing on it and hold it. The air will cool that off, as you hold that, that's the new form, that's how you recurve that bow. Then you turn around on the other side and do the same things until you have it set right, and that's how we curved our bows. I taught that, about the year of summer camp, I had all this pretty much intact with the young boys, couple girls even wanted to make arrows and bow. They got into my camp and that's what we did we just started having fun with the arrows and the bows. |
| [17,48] Linc Kesler: So you see any of those kids from that first year? |
| [17,49] Ivan Jackson: They were all grown up. They got kids of their own. They're grown up. |
| [17,50] Linc Kesler: They ever talk to you about that? |
| [17,51] Ivan Jackson: Sure, oh yeah, I meet them quite often. They're tribal members, and I am going to have them on a, I'm going to have a plaque made for them. I'm just waiting for the right place and I think this museum would be a good place to present that. Give them a document that they've been participating in their culture. Their identity, is actually what it is. That word is really strong: I mean, everything I do I try to say the identity because this is what this lodge is. That's what my hair's about. My hair's is my identity. Everything that I've been reconstructing is actually who we are, way before any contact with us, any contact with us to change our culture, and it's just really important that I share that with, not only my people, but people at large that are trying to learn a little bit about who we are. Because our ethnic background stops at a certain place. We don't have picture form, or art forms, songs, or any literature, that can go as far as I'm going right now. When in the 1880s, when professionals from all over the world came here to study us, a lot of that stuff got lost, or wasn't presented to us, like it was promised in book form to into our educational area. |
| [17,52] So this is where, I'm trying to, trying to, finish the gap, you know, trying to fill the gap. You just go on, to show the world, that we're still alive, a live culture. That's about what it's all about, to share the whole world that we're still alive, that we're not going to be extinct, as long as I keep talking. |
| [17,53] Linc Kesler: So tell me about, what you think of the sort of the next stage, and the kind of thing that you're doing is going to be. You've got, I mean, when I was here last year, you were just framing up that other house and it's finished, and now you've got this one built. |
| [17,54] Ivan Jackson: Well, this going to be a park and it's going to be a learning centre too, so people can come, and actually come in and share these displays that we're making, actual forms they are, but we're thinking about building a whole village here, so that means that probably about five, or at least four more sits, the main lodge and the cooking lodge on side of them. So that will be a big project right there, I'm not going to do anymore. I'm going to have all the young men do all the heavy work, I'm going to stand on the side line and be instructor, and just as soon as we get the time, the grant money for it, then I'll start the projects, I'll put it in the tribal news and it will be first come first serve that wants to participate and we'll see, we'll start building the village here, just like it used to be here. This is an old ancient grounds right here, this is one of the big camps, of the Klamath tribes, Klamath Indians. I'd like to see it reconstructed that way too, and then have real nice interpretive boards set out to explain what I'm saying right now. |
| [17,55] Linc Kesler: Right. Why do you think this was the spot? |
| [17,56] Ivan Jackson: I know for fact that's it's because of the two rivers meeting. It's the mighty Sprague and the Williamson river meet here and it's actually our fishery. It's not too far away from the lake where the mouth of the two rivers meet. So it'd be abundant of fish coming through here, and there was exactly, where the lava flows come through, it pushed in cracks big rock flows under that water to where there's big cracks down in the bottom of that river where's those big trout stay in there. So that make a natural platform that the Indians can go out there on the nets and go 'cross the stretch, and then other tribal members be up down river in boats, beating the waters, scaring those fish up to the nets, so that's why it was a natural fishing area, to catch fish, abundant of fish. Talking about where, in the old days they used to say you could walk across the river on the backs of them, they were so abundant, which we'll never see in our time again. Maybe someday we will, start taking care of this land better. But that's the reason why this was here, because of the abundant of fish. And then you had, not too far away epos, and even the ducks would, this was a traveling line for the ducks too, so it was abundant of food here. |
| [17,57] Linc Kesler: Were people, when you were growing up, were people still gathering the wocus? |
| [17,58] Ivan Jackson: Yes, yes. I haven't, since you've been gone, I've got involved with an elder that finally came forward and took me out and showed me how to process wocus. |
| [17,59] Linc Kesler: Oh really, I've heard that that's quite and involved process. |
| [17,60] Ivan Jackson: Yes. He went right through the ceremony with me. He's an elder. We went out in his canoe and he even, that I knew how to do wocus. There's a process, there's a real process. What I was doing was just picking for my aunts and uncles, but he was showing me what the sides look like, how the texture was, the color, and the, then there's the wet process, and the dry process. One you put on a great big stack of logs, you let it ferment and it's pretty "odoury". The other one you keep them dunked in water, and every day you keep cleaning that water, keep kneading the seeds out of the pods, but you got to let them still hang on to that mucus, 'cause that's what's making that seed grow, so your actually cultivating as they're, it's aging, as it's growing, in its own little membrane, and then about the eighth day of that thing you start really cleaning it out until you get to the seeds and then you lay the seeds out and dry them and then it goes to the next process. We haven't got there yet. I just got my dry seeds. But he's an elder, and when's he's ready he'll come to me. Let me know when it's time to do the next process. |
| [17,61] So that's a plus right there, you know. It's something, that I'm the student now and he's the teacher, and once I get that all put together, maybe if his health is doing pretty good, 'cause he's getting up there in age, then we'll take some kids out and teach it to the kids, but I'm documenting it now too. |
| [17,62] Linc Kesler: Is there, are there still some places where's there's a fair amount of the plant? |
| [17,63] Ivan Jackson: Yes, almost anywhere where that, the spring's going in to the lake, tributaries. Wocus grows really good in that cold water. Good thing to know, if you're going after wocus, is hang around those tributaries. Yeah there's quite a bit there, enough for the ducks too. So that's about what I'm doing, I'm just staying right with this seasons, tribal seasons, and next year, hopefully I'll have, I want to teach the young men how to foot hunt, actually have somebody come out in field with the camera, and teach them different . . . track, and where to go. Do it with the old style archery, old bow and arrow. Same with my spear; I got two different types of tribal spears that we used in when the fish ran, that we actually threw in the river and caught the fish with. I want to start documenting that too. I used steel tips when I was a young boy. We'd go out in boats with lanterns with the steel barbed tips and spear them. But I want to use the old style with the deer horn kind, barbed tips on them. Document that. I'll probably try to that at the fish hatchery, if I can get permission to take some kids up there and teach them how to spear fish. |
| [17,64] Linc Kesler: You were mentioning earlier that, there's use of obsidian for knife and saw and do you use those for arrow tips too? |
| [17,65] Ivan Jackson: Yes. |
| [17,66] Linc Kesler: That comes out of the lava the same kind of lava flow that you were talking about earlier? |
| [17,67] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, we have abundant of obsidian out here on, to the left of us, where we call Sycan marsh, just, not a whole mountain of it, but I mean there's a lot of big nodules about the size of these rock here. You just got to go out there in the flats and hunt them down and pack them and that's the hard part, packing them. I always go down, excuse me? |
| [17,68] Linc Kesler: They're heavy, I imagine. |
| [17,69] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, they are heavy, but I always go down to the lava beds northern California to Glass mountain, that's the whole side of a mountain. I mean the whole mountain is just huge. Man could never take all the obsidian out of there because it's just one big gigantic flow. It was pushed up into a mountain, and that's where I usually get my good obsidian for my knives and spearheads and arrowheads. |
| [17,70] Linc Kesler: There's another, isn't here another big flow up towards Bend? |
| [17,71] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, there's another lava flow up there too, south of Bend. |
| [17,72] Linc Kesler: Is that pretty hard to work the obsidian to make the tools? |
| [17,73] Ivan Jackson: No, once you learn how to, once you learn how to chip the angles, and learn the angles and how to use your wrist to pop, then you can knock a flake clear across, and the trick to it, is to get a blank made first, once you get that blank made, you use percussion to blank them out, and that's a big base of a deer horn. You just hold it in your hand and start popping pieces off of it. Then once you get that, then you start with the tip of the deer horn, you start really sizing it up and flattening it. |
| [17,74] Linc Kesler: So the deer horn sounds like it was, it's pretty important tool. |
| [17,75] Ivan Jackson: It is. It's a hard surface, but soft enough to get a hold of the corner that put the pressure on to pop it. That's what that horn does does: it gets a bite of that and the pressure that you're pushing down on, releases that, and then it snaps it, and it shocks a clear cross, and that's what a chip is, is a pressure flake, and then a chip off of your point or you knife or whatever you're making, and it takes a lot of practice to get that down. But once you, I do it a long, I've been a long, all my life. I can hear it if it's, if it went clear across; you just can hear that, that sound, don't even have to look under, 'cause it's under your hands when it's, where it's chipping off. |
| [17,76] Linc Kesler: So are any of the kids interested in? |
| [17,77] Ivan Jackson: Oh yeah, I taught almost all the kids how to make arrowheads. 1990 I started doing that. Matter of fact, most of the men that are, that were boys, now they're the teachers. They get hired to do the chipping. It's pretty neat, got to pass something down to them, and that's what I'm going to do with all this here. I'm going to find the kids that I know that are really going to stay with this project and then I'll just have them under my wing and when it's time to build this village, they'll be participating it. They'll know how to do it. Pass it on. I'm doing baskets, the real fine twine with the designs. I got a hat, since I met you, I've been working on a women's basket hat. |
| [17,78] Linc Kesler: Those really finely woven ones? Are you doing that kind of stuff? That must, must be pretty hard to do. |
| [17,79] Ivan Jackson: It's a lot of work. First of all you, you got to, again, you have to have the right tools, and once you learn how to do the right tools, then it's just like beadwork. If you've ever done any beadwork? If you get an offset bead, it messes your design up, well that's the same with tules too: you got to keep them the right size, and once you get them the right size and twist them into cordage and then overlay your colors into it to make your design, then it will come out perfect, if you got them all the right size, and I learned that trial by error. I got a couple of baskets that are, they're pretty rough looking, but they look pretty ancient. Kind have to hang on to those just to show you, give you an example of, you know, be patient and do it right and it comes out right too. I've been making tule shoes, tule leggings, tule hats, tule quivers for my arrows. Been practicing quite a bit. Most are gifts, not presents, but people want them for their own collection. So by the time they see me get something finished they go, "whoa, that's mine." But I'm going to get an outfit too, 'cause I want to start doing some ceremonial dances with the full outfit. |
| [17,80] Linc Kesler: What does it feel like to wear? |
| [17,81] Ivan Jackson: It's awesome, it's not that, they're not really heavy, and it just makes you proud because that's what our ancient people wore, and it hasn't surfaced like that for a long time, we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of years. It's kind of been tucked away. And so it's kind of new for my people to see this all surfacing. I see a lot of people looking. They're curious. We have basket makers, but it's like I said before, you know, keep mostly into the family, and so I'm just kind of looking around right now, if I find some young gals that I know that, where they're going to go with this, pass it on to them too. |
| [17,82] Linc Kesler: How did you, how did you learn the clothes making part of it? |
| [17,83] Ivan Jackson: Clothes making, I did . . . I'll back up: about twenty three years ago I really, really started wanting to know everything I could about our old ways. Even that I was told and taught a lot of it, there was a lot of gaps in between, like a putting a big puzzle together. In 1990, by 1994, there was ten elders that participated in the culture camp, and once they seen that I was doing this right and everything was accurate, then they started coming forward and filling in those gaps, ok? But there was still a lot missing, so way before I even got hired by the Klamath tribes, I would travel to other tribes, that I knew we'd gambled with, or that we were participating in powwows, or rodeos, or whatnot, and I'd talk to their elders, and I'd also had books, ethnic background of all the different tribes around here, and I'd find out that they were doing the same type of twining we were. The only difference was the material. So then I came back and started researching the material, and all I had to was find the right material and then put them into the twining and the rest is history. I learned how to do our natural baskets that way. The only difference was the material in the areas that tribes were living in, they had to use the resources they had around them. |
| [17,84] So there was like, Shasta, the Hupas, the Karoks, I think one of the northern tribes up there, I can't think right now which one it was did all knit baskets the same way, the overlay twining. The rest of tribes either did coiling or other weaving, but this is called twining, overlay twining, and what I mean by overlay twining is you have a frame or a rib, and then you take two pieces of spun material and overlap them between each part of that rib and then on each part of the overlapping you put your color and twist it into it and lock it as it's going around and over the rib of the basket, and that's how it got its name of overlay twining, and there's only a handful of tribes that did that and we were one of them, and what separates us from any of the other handful of tribes is in material around here. We're the only one's who use tules, cattails and nettle to start our baskets, and any collector, that's the first thing they'll do is turn that basket over and see what kind of start it has on that basket and which direction it goes, and that's how you identify our baskets. |
| [17,85] We had a lot of universal designs that other tribes used too, and did a lot of trade and gambling, so a lot of those ways got used somewhere else, so the only could identify is how those baskets were started, and I learned that through a book that I was reading one day, popped up right there on the page, I go wow, I didn't know that, I knew we were doing the same type of twine but I didn't know that's how, what our identification of our baskets were. So I make sure I tell people that, especially if I'm teaching it to the young, so they'll know, and they won't have to stumble like I have. It's been quite a adventure, but it's been in my heart, I've always, to me I've always been, who my grandmother told me I was, in the legend. So I just wanted to make sure I had all the bases covered before I come out into the public and start talking, 'cause I didn't want, I didn't want to do it wrong. I wanted to be accurate. And I feel like I'm doing it accurate 'cause the elders are telling me I'm doing a good job, so they'd be the ones that know. Yeah, so I just keep on going with it. |
| [17,86] Linc Kesler: Yeah, well it sounds like you've been taking a lot of research to piece together all of the things from different places. |
| [17,87] Ivan Jackson: Yes, just about, I got lots of documentation, book form, elders giving me their family hand-written documents. To me, that's kind of giving me, kind of dubbing me that I'm doing something right for them, you know, as an elder, and that's what my elder, one of the elders is still alive, one, the only one that's alive, told me one time when I was the language, project, that any culture, when you first start the culture you're an infant, and as you advance in the culture, you advance also from an infant to child, from a child to a delinquent, from a delinquent on to a young person, young man or woman, from that to an elder, and she told me that in my camp in the fifth year that I was being a, you know, teacher, and to me, I took that as, you know, it's not the age of what we think, it's what you know, the knowledge that you know. They're telling me that I'm getting close to being an elder, or maybe I am one, you know. So I remember that, that's, I keep that in my heart, and that's what keeps me going on with these projects. To be proud and know you're identities, can't put no value on that. |
| [17,88] Once you know who you are, I think, you're a complete person, and that's what I'm trying to share with everybody, is our identity, and I'll just keep doing it, doing the boat, once we get enough grant monies for the boat, then I'll definitely going to have some young men helping me with that. That's going to be a hard project to do, we're going to chip and burn it the old way with deer horn antler wedges and I'm soaking, right now, I got a half dozen mountain mahogany clubs that are soaking in water, and that's how you keep them from checking and once I get them out, I'll take, what do you call, I already got them shaped and formed, you take what they call, horse tail rush, and you just keep rubbing that with horse tail rush and that polishes them, really shines them up, hardens the outside of them so they won't crack, and then you wrap the antlers with the raw hide, wet raw hide, and then you have your rock made out of the, it would be like pumice rock, to keep them sharp, you have a great big one right next to where you're working, and then you burn it, and you start hitting it with that mallet and chisel, start chipping off the burnt part, and I'm figuring maybe about half dozen, it's going to take about maybe about five months. Just doing, I don't want to do anything with power saw, or metal chisel or anything, I want it to be compete with the old tools. |
| [17,89] Linc Kesler: So you burn it. You start with the, do you split the log first? |
| [17,90] Ivan Jackson: No, the whole top will be burned off, what I'll do is maybe later on, after we get done here, I'll stand in front of this log that we have out here. And I'll build, I'll actually dig a pit under it. Then I'll have some men with poles, about the size of these poles here, and we'll turn it over on top of that pit, and then I'll start a fire and I'll burn the whole top of it off, and I'll keep staggering that pit, all up down that log, that way we don't have to lift or anything, we're going to do it the old style, you know, moving that pit, instead of us trying to move the log. As we keep doing that, the log's going to get lighters, so we can maneuver it a lot easier. Now I've experienced by walking into a yellow pine forest fires, to see how mother nature burns a tree, and mother nature, in a yellow pine, burns the centre; the pitch from the heat draws from the centre and it will actually burn hollow in the inside and leave that outside out. |
| [17,91] That's how I knew how that would, how that originated: our elders had to see that from a big forest fire and figure, "hey that would make a neat boat," so they went home and got a, probably a wind fall along the lake, and floated it down here and did the same thing I'm going to be doing here in just a bit, using fire just the same way to hollow that out and to form with it, with the antler chisel and the mallets. Then once you get that down to where you think it's almost finished, then you get your sanding rocks and start working it down with the sanding rocks, get polished down, and then when you get it moving, you got to move it and sink it, and that's what keeps it from checking, until you can get water and hot rocks in there and those smoked fish heads, and that's what's going to seal it. But even that we did that, we always sunk them when we never used them. That way they'd last up to fourteen years, one boat without cracking, so you have to keep them sunk to keep them preserved, and that's what we went back to earlier, we were talking about, we would see them in the marsh, and they'd be coming out of the mud, and everything, those old ones, they were preserving them, and also that was a special spot for each tribal family to keep their boats there, you know, for gatherings. |
| [17,92] Linc Kesler: To sink them would they put rocks in them or, |
| [17,93] Ivan Jackson: Yeah they'd sink them down with rocks. Actually sink them right down in the water. |
| [17,94] Linc Kesler: What kind of log do you start with? What's the best wood for that? |
| [17,95] Ivan Jackson: To make a boat? Yellow pine, cedar. Cedar was a lot lighter wood but it was cantankerous. It'd check on you real, real easy. But that yellow, that twisted log, was the number one choice for boats. |
| [17,96] Linc Kesler: You know, it's interesting when you think, you're describing a method of burning. If you've got a twisted log, there's no way you could split it and end up with a boat, so burning it makes a whole lot of sense. |
| [17,97] Ivan Jackson: And what that term was for too, was if it did check then you could stop it in one area and doctor it up with the pitch and boiling of the fish heads and seal it. You wouldn't have a whole big crack where it'd just split in two. It'd stop it somewhere. As long as you kept it in the water, it wasn't going to check. We knew that. |
| [17,98] Linc Kesler: You mentioned a couple of minutes ago that they're, being involved in a language project at one point, and language, when you were growing up, were there people speaking the language? |
| [17,99] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, my grandparents spoke it fluently. My mom's mom and then my dad's mother passed away when I was a baby, but my great-grandmother, it'd be his grandmother, spoke the Modoc language, so I heard both of them. Plus at funerals, rodeos, gambling, had gambling tents at the rodeos, all of them, all of the elders spoke fluently. I got to hear that and then when we had the program, the Klamath tribes language program, I volunteered for two years to help the elders. There was ten elders that were fluent speakers, and now we only have one that's participating. I think we still have the elders, but they just, like I said, there's a lot them just don't like coming forward with the, with their own, personal reasons, for sharing. But I hope their families are documenting it. I just hope. |
| [17,100] Linc Kesler: Yeah, you have to hope that. |
| [17,101] Ivan Jackson: We're documenting this one elder pretty well. We're videoing her, and we have two students that have been with her for six years now. They should be getting close to fluency pretty soon, hopefully. |
| [17,102] Linc Kesler: Yeah, do you speak a little bit yourself? |
| [17,103] Ivan Jackson: A little bit yeah. When I want to. (laughs) (?). Yeah. |
| [17,104] Linc Kesler: Yeah I can remember my grandpa and all his buddies speaking their language, and, but my mom, for years, she wouldn't, she'd say she didn't know any, and then right before, a few years before she died, she just died last February, but she'd be getting, you know she had, I think she developed a real problem with it when she was in school, but she kind of loosened up with that, and would talk more about it. You know, she'd be recalling words and talking about things. |
| [17,105] Ivan Jackson: What the elder told me, is you forget that if you're not one-on-one if you don't have a facial and you're here, or some can't see their mouth moving that you can actually lose your cultural language if you don't hear it a lot, which I guess would be locked in your head. But if you don't know how to say it or pronounce it right, you won't hear it enough, get put away a little bit in the back of you mind. That's what was told to me, anyway. |
| [17,106] Linc Kesler: Right, yeah, well, makes sense. |
| [17,107] Ivan Jackson: So I'm glad we're documenting the one elder that's actually participating in the language. |
| [17,108] Linc Kesler: Yeah, well, it's nice that there are two students working with the elder too, because then they can talk to each other and they can reinforce that. |
| [17,109] Ivan Jackson: Right, and then video's very important too, 'cause they can take that home and use for studying device, sit during their own time and listen to it over and over until they get it right. |
| [17,110] Linc Kesler: Yeah, you know it's when you were saying that I was thinking that a lot times in a language projects people work with tape recorders, and that's good, because of course you get the good quality sound but, the advantage of video is that you, just what you were saying a minute ago, you got the face and the watching the way someone's face moves when they're speaking and so forth. |
| [17,111] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, also the glottals, the way they're holding their tongue and their mouth, and how it's coming out. Our language is really hard to master because of the different sounds. Six years, they should be getting close. |
| [17,112] Linc Kesler: Well, it's nice that they're keeping at it like that. |
| [17,113] Ivan Jackson: Yup, proud of them that they're hanging in there, you know. Make sure that it's not going to fade away, you know. So we have a lot of projects here that I'm pretty proud that the people are participating in. 'Cause if it wasn't, we'd be on that old back burner again probably, real close to being extinct. |
| [17,114] Linc Kesler: So do you think that they're more people in a kind of committed to keeping things going now then there have been, or . . . |
| [17,115] Ivan Jackson: I have a suspicion, that each family has been keeping it going. |
| [17,116] Linc Kesler: Right, but just quietly. |
| [17,117] Ivan Jackson: Yeah, because there's some times when I think, getting kind of lonely in here, then I here somebody doing something, you know. Yeah, it's like this film and the elder that's helping me with the wocus, that man is pure Klamath, I mean he knows a lot, he's very knowledgeable, and I think now he's understanding that, you know, what I'm trying to do, he's going to kind of come aboard here a little bit here and there to help me, because he knows that it's important. It's very important for our people to have that identity. To know who they are, and he can help, and he has helped, and I just really appreciate it that he's done what he's done already, because I could've talked all day long about the wocus of what I can remember, but the few little pages he turned for me, just helped enormously, just helped more than he'll ever know. It's not just for me and him now; this is for everybody, and I think that he understands that now. |
| [17,118] I don't, I can't speak why he doesn't do any projects or anything, but a long time ago, like I said earlier, we had, a lot of this stuff was outlawed, religion was outlawed, so elders started keeping it in the back room of their own family houses, and that's what made it so hard for me, 'cause after I lost my grandparents and half my dad's cousins by the dozens, almost all my aunts an uncles, I'm kind of sitting here by myself in this culture. Not just, I'm talking about my family, the whole ball of wax just been sitting on the back burner, and I'm trying to make tribal alertness, awareness that you know, we got to, we got to keep this going. Keep it right along side of our other projects that we're doing. |
| [17,119] Linc Kesler: Yeah cause it's always, particularly when you're, when you know that the knowledge that the elders have, people who are, that are getting on to at an advanced age, you know that it's really important and irreplaceable, but, you know, you've always, you're always going to have that kind of time pressure with every generation. It seems like the people who are really getting on in age now, they've got a connection to really different time, and it's a really important connection. I know, I feel the same thing you do, that it's a really important time, in terms of keeping things alive, keeping things going. That's why it's great, it's so nice to be sitting here in this house that you made, as a way of doing that. |
| [17,120] Ivan Jackson: Well, I enjoy it. |
| [17,121] Linc Kesler: Well, you know. I thank you for the opportunity to sit in here, both in the sense that you made it, so it's here to sit it, but also your generosity in sitting here with me and talking, I really appreciate, it, and we're creeping up here on the end of this particular tape |
| [17,122] Ivan Jackson: Well I appreciate the time that you gave me to share this with everybody. |
| [17,123] Linc Kesler: My pleasure. |
| [17,124] Ivan Jackson: I hope I helped you too, all right. |
| [17,125] Linc Kesler: Ok, well I guess I'll . . . |
| [17,126] Ivan Jackson: That's good enough, eh? |
| [17,127] Linc Kesler: Yeah, turn it off . . . |
|
Session 18 |
| [18,1] Morrie Jimenez: Ok, I wanted to, I wanted to share with the viewers a concern that's been bothering me for a while, but at the same time, I really felt a need to let everybody know who might viewing these tapes, that I share this just as one individual and one tribal person from the Klamath tribe, my personal experiences and the experiences and the impacts that it had on my life over the years since I left the reservation. And I wanted to do this primarily, not for public consumption initially, but initially to make sure that my family, my immediate family and extended family, would have a record, of where I've been and how those experiences have led me to this point today. I've been gone from the reservation, although I have gone back initially, from time to time to attend a cultural events, to attend various cultural events, or to attend family, to family needs, and when I say family needs, I'm talking about, in essence, the entire reservation family, because that's what I grew in, and so when we talk of family, we talk about everybody that we ever grew up with on the reservation who shared those kinds of experiences. |
| [18,2] And I wanted to ensure that, possibly, if there were enough questions asked about what happened to this particular, this one particular individual, that there would be some record of that, because when I do make my occasional trips still back to the reservation area, I spend a lot of time just sitting and visiting with people about my personal experiences and my family experiences, since I've left that particular point in time, in my reservation experiences. So that's basically what I've agreed to participate in these taping sessions, and also to fulfill a need expressed to me by various people that I've worked with on the college campuses for such information, that they had indicated to me that there would be some value to preserving experiences like this, so that they might have it available for their students in explaining, trying to explain the situation for tribal communities in the state and the impacts of what's happened to tribal communities over the years. |
| [18,3] So, having had a, spent a career in teaching, I saw that as a rationale that carried merit. There's something that I could use in class and something that people that I've worked with could use in class, not, whenever there was a point where I wouldn't be available to them personally. And I've already reached that stage because of health conditions, and so that value becomes even more apparent to me when I, I'm at a point where it's becoming more and more difficult for me to respond personally to requests to come in and lecture and to share information and share experiences. So that's basically why I've agreed to participate, and in fact, I'm glad to participate in the hopes that I will have, ultimately, that I can share with my family as well. And that came to mind just recently. I made a trip down back to the community again as I have over the years and, on different occasions, but the experience that I shared over the weekend was an experience where, one of our, one of my classmates that I went to school with, back in a period of time when we were in the third grade together, and her family had decided that they wanted to give her a birthday party, and so they asked what was it she, who would she like to invite to the birthday party. |
| [18,4] And she said that she would really like to have help to identify as many of her former classmates as she possibly could, which included both Klamath tribal members and non-Klamath tribal members, because we were, we were kind of a small multi-cultural group on the reservation, made up of Indians and non-Indians alike. And the family said "fine," and so they've been in the process of trying to locate as many people who are seventy years of age, like I am. And they put together this little party and I went down and attended the party with her and was able to, and she's a relative, by the way, and there's no question of how that impacted her to have at least ten of us show up at this little celebration. And we all had such a good time, even though we had a great deal, initially, of trouble identifying each other, because it's been so long since a lot of us had seen each other. But I spent an afternoon, a very enjoyable afternoon just visiting with them. |
| [18,5] The questions I got from them were the same kinds of questions I got from my own students when I talked to them in classrooms, during my teaching, at various times during my teaching experiences, about reservation life and what it was like grow up on a reservation. And these, and my classmates and the people that were in attendance there, had the same questions for me: "What have you been doing?" "Where have you been?" "How's your family?" And then of course, getting on to the, "do you remember when," kinds of experiences. And those "remember when" experiences, going back to that period in time when I was in the third grade. So you're talking about a period between 1933 and 1940, when I was sharing those kinds of experiences on the reservation. And being able to sit down with a very close friend of the family and somebody that I've know for a lifetime, who we could share, although she didn't go to school, she didn't spend a lot of time going to our schools on the reservation. Her family was one of, like many other families, had sent her off to boarding schools, and so, boarding schools here in state, boarding schools out of state. |
| [18,6] So even she had questions about: "Do you remember when?" "Do you remember about the old fishing experiences down the river when the encampments, during the fishing celebrations." The hunting campgrounds that we had around the reservation; picking chokecherries, picking. And then, assisting with the various gathering experiences with our families. The former celebrations, the old Shaker church, those kinds of things. So I had a very enjoyable experience. Those experiences, going back occasionally and sitting down and sharing with people that I grew up with on the reservation has lent, a desire on my behalf to find some way of preserving that. I started, I started putting down in black, on paper, here two or three years back, and bits and pieces, I'm beginning to put all that back together and it's been a real nice experience. This is just another extension of wanting to preserve a little bit of my historical experiences with my, for my family. And I'm glad to have the opportunity to do that. That help? |
| [18,7] Linc Kesler: Sure, are there other things that you want to talk about today? |
| [18,8] Morrie Jimenez: Well, yeah, I thought I would like to talk about two, and it fits very well into what I just shared with you, is that I wound up a point eventually, having, after my kids, our own children, we have six children, and I finally reached a point a number of years back, several years back, where I became aware of the fact that a lot of what I want to share with people on these tapes, and these interviews, was something that I should've been sharing all along with my own children. And they only, I was only able to give them bits and pieces over the years, but I never took the time to really sit down and share with them what I've shared with you on these tapes over the years. And so, I wanted, I felt a critical need to share with them those experiences as a means of, hopefully them understanding the impacts of my former reservation experiences, and what's happened since then. That might give them a better explanation of why things went along the way they did over the years, that might give them some understanding of what their mother and I have gone through over the years, and the various experiences that impacted, that may or may not have impacted their personal experiences within, as a family, as a family unit too. |
| [18,9] I felt this need primarily of, eventually because of the fact I realized that over the years, I've never taken the time to do that. And I rationalize that by saying very simply, I've rationalized that in the past by simply saying, "well, I didn't have the time to do that." I went from a reservation experience to a college experience, which was, which I've explained in one of the other tapes, that was, that created quite a bit of alteration in a lot of many, in a lot of my belief systems. And it's been difficult over the years to sustain. There were times in my, in that experience, where it became very difficult for me to want, to stay away, to not want to go to back to the reservation experience, which, of course, was a counter to what parents wanted for me, to get an education, to get a high, graduate from college, to get a college education, as a means of preparing myself to be of assistance to other, hopefully other Indian people at some time in the future. They had no sense of what that might specifically entail. |
| [18,10] But wanting to accomplish that, and having developed a belief in that mission along with them, I pursued a college education, and in pursuing that college education I became involved in athletics and in doing the academic work. As we started heading down that, I met my wife in college, our second year, and we were married in our second year, and we started having children. And at that particular point in time, I, with the athletics involvement, athletics, involvement in studies and, then coupled again with the fact that I became involved in survival as far as raising a family, and doing what I needed to do in order to assist my wife in raising our family. Eventually over the years, moving from college experience to my first teaching experience, and to subsequent teaching experiences over the years, I wound up never fulfilling that need to let my children know, to share with them on a first hand basis what I had gone through on the reservation and gone through in order to get that college education, to get that education. |
| [18,11] And I always rationalized it away as, I always used my job as a means of rationalizing, I don't have, I just never took the time to do that, moving from one teaching experience to another, because I not only taught everyday, all the thirty-three years I spent at the school system, but I coached almost every year. And that coaching extended my teaching day over through seven or eight-o-clock and some. Because I was coaching on weekends, it also entailed travel and working with the various teams and coaching experiences. So I wouldn't get home until eleven or twelve-o-clock at night. And then again, not taking the time, because my kids were in bed, and I needed to relax. That's a kind of rationale that I used over the years, I never took the time to just seriously sit down and say, "there's a need for you to share that with your children." And I think it's very common among people who raise families, among people who are working, and working through a career like I was. |
| [18,12] So, I went from one teaching experience to the next teaching experience, through ultimately to that point in time when I retired, thirty-three years later, from an active teaching career, and in that same, in that same period, in that block of time, I took time out to go back to the reservation to teach and to work, never really feeling, after fifteen or sixteen years, that I was prepared to go back to the reservation, because I had a lot second thoughts and concerns about going back to the reservation to teach, because my experience for the most part, was a good one, but at the same time, it was tainted by really bad experiences within the public school system where I grew up on the reservation, particularly in the rural county school system which, where Chiloquin was located, where our reservation was located. And then, and then eventually moving into the large municipality in our area, I became so involved with the athletic process again, that I was moving farther and farther away from my reservation life and my reservation experiences. |
| [18,13] So I took, when I took the time out to go back fifteen years later, after having been in a public school systems, serving the public school systems across the state, I really (?) back with the mission and hoping that I could transfer what my parent's hopes were to other Indian children. But I wound up in such a battle to sustain my identity within that system, it was primarily due to the fact that I was still very young and at times very impatient and not sensitive, not really understanding that it wasn't possible for me to move back in, that it was going to be difficult for me to move back in and fulfill that internal mission that I felt that I wanted to fulfill. I didn't understand the system as well as I should have. I realized that many, many years later because I had a lot guilt that developed over the fact that I wasn't able to accomplish, in the two years that I was there, what I wanted to accomplish, 'cause I wound up battling the system, and it was a no-win situation for me. And so, I become a very frustrated, impatient person, and a very bitter person over the fact that there were so many people, both Indian and non-Indian alike who saw me as an educated person who really didn't understand what their situation . . . And in a sense they were right. |
| [18,14] In a sense, they were right, but it was frustrating, so I left in a very frustrated manner, and went back to the public school system off the reservation and finished my teaching career there. But I also took time out from that teaching career to go to work for the State Department of Education, primarily as a result of the fact that I had a specialist from the State Department of Education who had responsibilities to monitor federally funded programs for schools across the state, and that person had experience in civil rights, multi-cultural education, and in visiting with him, during, he visited me initially during my Chiloquin experience as a teacher and coach, and we talked about civil rights matters because this now as the '60s and it was, there were so many factors across the country that were involved that whole civil rights movement, the de-segregation movement was, we were into that phase of our history at that particular point in time. And so after visiting me a couple, three times, when he made his visits to Chiloquin, he offered me a job when I left Chiloquin and I decided, at that particular point in time . . . |
| [18,15] My perception of people at the State Department of Education was such that I didn't feel that I had the capacity, the skills or the knowledge or the experience to work at that level, as my perception was that those were all highly skilled very knowledgeable people who, I think, with high degrees, with PhDs, and everything else. And so I didn't see myself able to do that. He didn't give up on me: he offered me the job at the end of my first year down there, and then he offered me the job again when I left Chiloquin and I didn't feel I would be able to do that. And so I went back into the Salem school District where I had started my career in the valley. And he came to me again at the end of that next year, after I had spent a year back in system here in a high school here in town, offered me a job a third time, and convinced me that my perception of who those kinds of people, specialists that work, may not be as positive as a, as I thought it was. And that I, he felt that I, just in visiting with me, that I had skills and knowledge that they could use at the state department, this division that had responsibility for civil rights, ensuring that school districts were following civil rights mandates at that particular point in time. And so I took a job with the state department as the civil rights specialist with the state department. |
| [18,16] I spent two and half years with them there and really enjoyed that experience, really broadened my background in the whole area of what schools need to do if, in fact, they're going to fulfill their stated need to help all students meet their goals in the educational process. And I enjoyed that experience very, very much. And then I was offered a job with the Warm Springs Tribe to serve as the onsite director of teacher education internship project. So I went over there for three years and did that for them. And that took me back into a community, a tribal community again, and it exposed me to experiences again that I was very familiar with. It exposed me, it reintroduced for me again, the traditional Indian way, the value systems, the cultural aspects of Indian life again. And it was such an enjoyable experience to me that I really feel that the Warm Springs tribe were, the people who put together that project at Warm Springs Tribe, could see into the future, I was convinced of that, because they had identified what they wanted as a curriculum for their teacher interns, if, in fact, they were going to be successful as teachers in helping Indian children in the public school systems. So, they had a lot of insights that really assisted me, along with my civil rights, developing civil rights background in developing a much stronger focus in the area of multi-cultural education, at that particular point in time. |
| [18,17] But there again, those experiences of going to work, leaving the, my previous teaching experience and going to work for the state department, going to work for Warm Springs and Oregon State University, created even more demands on my time that removed me farther and farther away from my responsibility to ensure that my family understood what I was doing and why I was doing it. In many cases I didn't share with them, I just said very simply, "well this is something that I have to do." I didn't even say that to them, I just did it. And they, and not realizing until years later that there was a responsibility that I had not met to my personal family, that I should've been meeting all along, to ensure that they understood why there were moving to Chiloquin, and why they were moving back to Salem, and why we were moving to Warm Springs. But at the same time, I was fortunate that I had a, that my wife was able to fill a lot of that, but she was doing it without much involvement, participation from my perspective. And there were so much more that I could've done to help deal with the changes that they were forced to make in order to, that would allow me to move forward. |
| [18,18] I went back to the state department after I left the Warm Springs. I was offered another job as the Indian Education specialist. And that experience moved me back into a role at the State Department of Education, where I was given responsibility to ensure that the new federal funded monies in Indian education, and these were brand new monies that they were making to local school districts to assist them in their efforts to move their children through the public school systems, to ensure that they be given, and it was a new plan during that particular point in time because it included a need to help Indian communities, assist the school districts to ensure that the cultural, that the cultural attributes of whatever they had to offer were included as a part of the educational process, that we find some way to ensure that the curriculum, the educational experiences would become more, become relevant, more respectful of what the kids, what the kids and their community brought to the school system. |
| [18,19] And so I spent another two and half years in that, the experiences of the civil rights, the experiences that I went through as a civil rights specialist for the state department. And then the onsite director for the internship project at Warm Springs and then again the Indian education specialist position with the State Department of Education took me in many cases back into, not only my community, but other tribal communities in the state. And then I became also available as a resource to out of state tribal communities who were trying, attempting to do the same kinds of things for their, with their local schools, developed again those relationships with public school systems. So I wound up doing a great deal of travel during that period of about five, seven years, where I was in and out of the state and spending most of my time in airplanes and motels and hotels. And again, what that did, is, just intensified the fact that I was not as available to my own kids, my own children as I might have been, because I was constantly on the move, constantly on the travel, constant travel and that type of thing. |
| [18,20] And so, ultimately, then when I retired, finally retired in '88, all of sudden, I realized my kids were, for the most part were gone. They were gone out of the house, pursuing their own careers. And at that particular point in time, having more time to reflect on where I've been and what I've done, finally arrived at a situation where, at a place where I began regretting the fact that I hadn't spent as much time as my wife had with my children. But again I feel very fortunate that my wife was able to fill in a lot that, a lot of those experiences for my children when I was gone. And of course, and but I, at that particular point in time, after I retired, then I moved in, even after my retirement, I started trying to put these histories together, put these experiences together. I wound up then serving as a consultant to the Oregon tribes as, in the field of higher education, and that went on for another ten years. So here, so here I am in, at this period, point in my history and still trying to do what I can to assist and develop eventually a history of where I've been and what I've been doing and why I've been doing: I think that's the most important part, because it involves, ultimately a need for me to return to my roots. |
| [18,21] And, and I've become very sensitive to the fact that where I've been and what I've done and where I've come to, at this particular point in time, all, was all initiated as a result of my mother, expectations of my mother and my aunt, the rest of my extended family, laid on me, clear back when I was grade school. And that I feel very good at this particular point in time. I think I've done pretty much what they've asked me to do. I haven't done that without some major, without some major breaks in that whole, in that whole piece, without some downs that went along with the obvious ups that I went through, socially, politically, economically, like most married couples and families. But there was a lot of the social, the social aspects were, I had some serious personal conflicts and that affected my abilities at times to fulfill a mission that was handed to me many, many years ago. |
| [18,22] And so, I'm hoping that along with my personal experiences, my personal contacts with all the people I've had to, both tribal and non-tribal, and then these tapes give at least my family a better understanding of what they went through and what I went through. And what their mother has gone through, and also what my, what my extended family went through, in order, I realize now the sacrifices that they made that allowed me to achieve what I, what I ultimately achieved. I feel very good about where I've been, I feel that, and what I've accomplished in my life. And, and I owe that all to not only my, my nuclear and extended family at home, but also to all those people on the reservation who took the time, whenever they saw me, to encourage me to stay with it and to follow through. And so that's what's been driving me all these, I realize that now, more than anything else, that's what's been driving me all these years. |
| [18,23] And so, I've become very appreciative of that, to the point that I now do as much as I can to go back and, and do what I can to reestablish those contacts that I had on the reservation. And unfortunately I'm at a point now, because of my age, where so many of those people that I could've thanked, didn't thank, are gone. But there's no question in my mind that they understand, and they've always understood, because they've always been there for me. And so, I'm hoping that, and so ultimately that's what I'm looking for is, is a record of all that I can share with my children. Ok? |