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Francine Burning |
| [1,1] Karrmen: So I guess we'll just start by asking how satisfied are you with the level of discussion you typically encounter in classes that address Aboriginal issues? |
| [1,2] Francine: I think I wouldn't really term it in terms of satisfaction. I think that whenever there is an Aboriginal issue that comes up, it's more in the level of my comfort, I would say. What is the level of my comfort. And I think that...I've been through certain experiences so many times in classrooms to where when there is an issue that comes up that's either controversial or...anything that's being discussed about Aboriginal issues, my anxiety level goes up immediately and...I always try to ask myself, my own self, you know, "why am I going through this, why is my anxiety level, you know, sort of unnaturally spike whenever we talk about Aboriginal issues," and for me I think that it's because I've been through so many discussions where in the classroom...I've taken quite a number of classes that have Aboriginal content, and I'm usually the only one, or there's probably only, you know, two out of thirty or five out of sixty people in the class who are actually Aboriginal, so I think in that way I feel kind of outnumbered in that way, so, you know, I think that it would be more...the leveling of anxiety that I experience whenever there's an issue that comes up. |
| [1,3] Yeah, and it has to do with prolonged exposure to the ineducation of non-Aboriginal students and or non-Aboriginal teachers that try to tackle a discussion about Aboriginal people, a lot of them with blind eyes or maybe fresh eyes or...not really knowing the history of Aboriginal people, not only within Canada, but within North America and around the world as well. There's a lot of mystification there as far as that goes. So I would sort of more term it in terms of level of anxiety within the classroom. As far as my experience within the classroom, I would say that it can be dissatisfactory, in those terms. It is very dissatisfactory to me. |
| [1,4] Karrmen: So do you find that there's much variability in your experiences from class to class? |
| [1,5] Francine: Definitely. There's definitely a variability. I think it has a lot to do with setting ground rules. Like the professor setting a basis or not ground rules, but sort of, setting a background at the beginning of the semester, because I've actually had a really good classroom environments, where the teacher has set up a background or backdrop to Aboriginal issues, and teachers that are more educated in, especially in the contemporary issues, issues of identity, issues of pan-Indianism, political issues, if a teacher takes the time to sort of establish parameters in the beginning of the course, I feel that it actually makes the course environment more comfortable for me as an Aboriginal student. And there's been other classrooms where professors and teachers are...you know a professor may be very educated in their study, whatever their discipline may be, but there still aren't connecting with the humanity of the reality of living in that kind of environment, living in the kind of... |
| [1,6] ...the position of actually being a non-Aboriginal institution as an Aboriginal person, and being a non-Aboriginal instructor talking about Aboriginal issues...So I think that I've had really positive classroom environments where I've felt very comfortable and very open speaking my mind about the issues that come up and I've had other experiences where it's been, it was very difficult for me to have...be in the classroom because a) the teacher or professor themselves didn't really identify the problem of the background of Aboriginal issues and the teacher allowed other students to make statements that were offensive to me as an Aboriginal student and sort of rolling over the discussion and not really addressing the fallacy of the argument that another student would be presenting in the classroom. I'm not really sure if they really overlooked those things or if they didn't know how to address them, or if they just didn't think about it. |
| [1,7] Amy: So, whose responsibility do you think this should be in the classroom to take on these issues or address these issues? Should it start in the classroom, should it start somewhere before the classroom, you know at the university level, moving into addressing it with the teachers, moving into addressing it with the students before the class actually happens? |
| [1,8] Francine: Um...I think I have about three answers, three different answers for that. One, I think that if there are any professors or sessional teachers teaching any kind of course that has Aboriginal content in it or may have an Aboriginal issue attached to it, should really understand the issues of say an Aboriginal student within a non-Aboriginal institution. They should have a basis of identifying what is acceptable and not acceptable statements to say in classrooms. They should be very upfront about that and let the students know that racism within the classroom or those kind of situations within the classroom are not acceptable. Because I've actually had a teacher say that right out front, say that, "I will not tolerate this within my classroom and this is what I'm talking about, for example..." those kind of things. So yes, I do believe that it is the instructors' responsibility to understand that. I think within institutions grassroots, it's an institutional responsibility as well. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about this situation, and she had made a really good suggestion, that I feel is really important. |
| [1,9] I come from a First Nations Studies background, and I'm also First Nations, so for me, I'm sort of more sophisticated in that way, about issues of the past, about history, about contemporary issues of identity, issues of exclusion, and what...to go back to what I was saying, what she has suggested is that every Arts student should go through a course that's part of a prerequisite just to go, say you can't even go on to your third year level without taking a course that verses you in issues of Aboriginal people...it can be really general, it can be really simple...yeah, in terms of what else can be done, I'm not really sure, but I do think that it is an institutional responsibility to educate their students about the First Peoples of North America. |
| [1,10] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal content in classrooms? |
| [1,11] Francine: The difficult aspects of teaching? |
| [1,12] Karrmen: Yeah, from your perspective. What do you see as being some factors that...what is difficult about, let's say you're in a classroom, having been around a lot of First Nations classes, from your perspective, what do you see as being...what people struggle with, and from your experience what do you understand as being the difficult aspects of teaching or discussing the issues? |
| [1,13] Francine: I think with teachers, I've seen a lot of teachers become visibly uncomfortable with actually trying to teach something and some of them, a lot of them are non-Native instructors, they sort of feel this clamminess that comes about them that's basically saying without saying "I'm non-Aboriginal and I really..." I don't know if they feel like they don't have the right to address some of the things, or if they feel like they just kind of like they don't really know how to feel about teaching about Aboriginal stuff. And I think that they're a little bit wary about the issue in general. I think uncomfortable with what "might" happen, what "might" come up, and I think that foreshadows what does happen. And then in terms of other students, within this institution being vastly non Aboriginal, I think there's also an uneasiness with non-Aboriginal students actually trying to address some of the issues, or trying to even talk about it, because some of them won't even talk about it, because maybe they feel they don't have the right to, or maybe they feel some sort of an ancestral guiltiness or maybe they feel an empathy or they feel kind of like...sorry air for the classroom environment, the whole "poor Indian" thing. Does that make any sense? Am I answering your question? |
| [1,14] Karrmen: I think so. |
| [1,15] Amy: How would you feel if a non-Aboriginal student were to start asking questions in class? Do you think that kind of discussion...what's you ideal situation, what would you want out of this? |
| [1,16] Francine: I've thought about this a lot, you know, and I've been in this situation a lot. To me, I feel like I am a natural teacher and that I do, I really do want to demystify a lot of things about Aboriginal people. And so in certain situations in certain classrooms, if there's an non-Aboriginal student actually asking questions and actually wanting to know and sort of peering around the corner and asking, sort of poking their heads out and saying, "what about this?" I really admire that, and I feel this overwhelming drive to really address the situation and be really honest and I've had to really train myself to be overly diplomatic. Because I've done it so many times or because I've addressed Aboriginal issues within a non-Aboriginal setting being the one of only Aboriginal persons in that setting, I've really had to train myself to be very diplomatic about everything that I say. So for me I really admire non-Aboriginal students trying to dip their feet in the water, shall we say? And for me, my experience within the classroom is that I have this drive to really help them learn. |
| [1,17] But then, on the other hand, is it my responsibility to teach them? Do I have to take this with me everywhere I go? And every classroom setting I go to? I know students who are Aboriginal and they're not visibly Aboriginal but they are inside and that's their own identity, that's their...they know who they are. But being an Aboriginal person who is visibly Aboriginal - there's nowhere I can hide. And it's not that I do want to hide, but sometimes I just don't feel like having that responsibility everywhere I go, being the representative of Aboriginal people and whenever I do speak, I always address that every Aboriginal community is diverse. I try to demystify the pan-Indianism. I also state before I say anything that I do not speak for all Aboriginal people. I'm so well versed in this that I have my whole ground rules that I do before I can even speak a word. Just to let people know that this is who I am. I'm an Aboriginal person but I don't speak for everybody. Yeah, it can be really daunting to go into every classroom and say, "Okay, what do I have to do today? Where do I have to take this discussion today?" It's like a responsibility... sometimes I really relish in, and sometimes I really feel like I'm carrying a brick on my back. |
| [1,18] Karrmen: Are there any specific moments in a class...do you have moments that stick in your mind that you think about? |
| [1,19] Francine: Oh yeah, for sure I do. I was in a class once, and we were discussing something pretty controversial, I believe the topic was cultural appropriation of art, of Native art, using it as a nationalist identity, like say on the twenty dollar bill we have Bill Reid's I think First Men, or The First Men. We were discussing that in a class and a teacher literally did a 90-degree angle to me and said "And what do you think about this? What do you think about this situation?" And you know I think for me that was the most profound situation that I've ever been out in. A lot of the times I like to be put on the podium, I like to be put in centre stage. I'm very boisterous, I'm very outspoken, but in that situation I felt so much anxiety, I got immediately flustered, I had this big knot in my stomach and all of a sudden everything else in the entire classroom got bigger, like almost like my whole vision had stepped back a little bit, and everybody else got out a little bit, and I literally had my mouth open. I was like "uh, uh" and I quickly, quickly had to gather myself together. I told them what I thought about it, but I think that that experience for myself was really stunting. It was stunning and stunting. |
| [1,20] I just literally will not forget that day in particular. And even what I carried out of that day, I carried that into the next week, remembering how that felt, carrying it back into the classroom the next time I had to go to class. In that particular class I had felt that...I thought about it in different ways. It occupied a lot of my space, a lot of my mental space and it made me feel very emotional. As well, I had a physical reaction. And I thought about it, I try to think about it in a different way, I try to sort of reconcile with the situation in my own head and what I did realize is that because I am so outspoken that I think that perhaps people within that classroom in particular had really...they really did start looking to me for opinion, they started looking to me for direction. So it was like, it's like in one way that situation made me really flustered and it made me really isolated, like literally I felt so isolated from everybody else, but I tried to reconcile with it in my own way, and saying "they really want to know what I think," you know what I mean? But it still didn't help the way I felt, and it occupied a lot of my mental space for a long time. I could probably tell you about another situation. There's probably hundreds by now. |
| [1,21] Karrmen: You can say whatever you want. It's all good. |
| [1,22] Francine: I think when...it's really hard to address the issues without really talking about them honestly, and it's really hard for me as an Aboriginal person when we address issues like alcoholism, when we address issues like suicide rates within reservations. Sexual abuse. Residential school. These are all...these are the four things that people think about a lot when they talk about Aboriginal communities and "why are Aboriginal people this way?" There's this sense of...it's sort of like a form of pan-Indianism, even though they realize that not all Aboriginal people are that way or have these issues, there's still...when it's addressed in the classroom situation it almost framed in that way. Does that make any sense? |
| [1,23] Karrmen: I think...do you want to say more about that? |
| [1,24] Francine: It's almost like a common assumption that even if you say not all Aboriginal people are like this and you know that they're not, whenever you talk about these situations, Aboriginal people are framed by these things. That might be an overgeneralization, and it might be because I'm really sensitive about these situations, but that's what it feels like to me. So I think the more recent experience that I had was...it was actually adjusting the issue of Residential school...and it was really hard to even sit there and listen to all of the naming off of certain things...I don't know. |
| [1,25] Amy: What kind of things were they naming off? |
| [1,26] Francine: Um, they were talking about Residential school, they were saying that in the beginning it was very...it was, Residential school was believed to be a benevolent thing, and like it was supposed to be for the good of the people and I totally understood what he was saying but it was hard for me to sit there, and listen actually listen to that, because of the impact it's had on my community, the impact that it's had to me generationally. I didn't go to Residential school myself, but I have ancestors who went to Residential school. I think it's more like, I feel like when certain topics are being spoken of, I feel like they're actually talking directly about me. And I don't know if that's...I don't know why that is. It's just how I feel. |
| [1,27] Karrmen: So in that situation, how did you respond to that kind of discussion, what did you end up doing? |
| [1,28] Francine: That one wasn't really a discussion, it was more of a lecture, and it was just more, for me it was just more the anxiety I felt, the self-consciousness of being Aboriginal. |
| [1,29] Karrmen: So do you think in the situations that you've talked about, what might the instructors have done to set the stage for a better interaction? |
| [1,30] Francine: I'm not really sure, because I do really feel like this particular instructor had done a very good job at setting up the whole course. In that situation it may be just a personal thing for me. I'm not really sure how an instructor could prepare students any better than he already had. |
| [1,31] Karrmen: In the case where you're talking about the twenty dollar bill, do you think there's a better way that...that the instructor could have handled that particular discussion that would have been... |
| [1,32] Francine: I think...I'm not really sure because on that day, in that class, I had not commented on anything, and they had maybe felt that that was not normal for me. But I think that if the instructor had not singled me out, if the instructor had maybe waited for me to respond to the situation, that would have made me feel more empowered, like I was being empowered, like I was demystifying....I don't want to make everything about me, but when the discussion turns into it being about what does the Aboriginal student think, that changes it. That changes the whole air of the feeling of...the isolation sets in pretty hard. If I wanted to comment on something, I will. Believe me. |
| [1,33] Karrmen: Have there been other situations that have been notably better or worse that you recall? |
| [1,34] Francine: Notably better or worse. Yeah, um...I think in general when there is really sort of, for lack of a better word, ignorant statements made by students...and immediately I'll have my back up - immediately. I've been in situations where I didn't have to say a word, the instructor in a clear and calm and very diplomatic manner, probably even more than myself, had actually addressed the situation and said, and turned the situation around on its head. And said, "well, what if..." - this is probably not a good example - but "what if you were put in this situation, and somebody was saying this to you?" I think that with the positive experience that I've had is where I didn't actually have to say anything, where the instructor actually addressed the situation and made me...not to make me feel at ease, but that was an end result of the instructor's care. How the instructor cared about the discussions that were going on in the instructor's classroom. |
| [1,35] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment? Have you seen that, or do you think that's happening? |
| [1,36] Francine: Improving. Hm. Well, I've been here for three years...I can't really put it in terms of improving or not improving, right. Because in my perspective, the content of the course is either going to address the real hard Aboriginal issues, or it's not going to. It's just going to look at an area of whatever, right? So it might be Aboriginal light, or it could be Aboriginal dark. So it depends on the course content, it depends on the instructor, it depends on the students in the environment, it depends on the knowledge of the students in general about Aboriginal issues. |
| [1,37] Karrmen: So what would you like to see happen? |
| [1,38] Francine: I think I would like to see...hm. That's a really hard one, you know, because I'm really good at picking out what the problems are, but I'm not so good picking out what the solutions are. I think I would like to...Here's a good one. On top of the instructor setting some basis or some ground rules of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, I would like to see the instructor say right off the bat, "I realize that in situations and in discussions there are things, internal feelings or internal issues that individual students have, Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal, that you may not want to speak out about in the class. If you wanted to talk further about something or if something, anything in this classroom bothers you, or any statements that were made bothers you, you can come to me and talk about them," or maybe there can be some sort of grievance process..."grievance" might not be a good word, but some sort of process that allows a student to individually, confidentially address a situation that they may not want to say in public. That they may carry around with them for a long time. That doesn't belong to them. |
| [1,39] We shouldn't be in the classroom bringing stuff out into our home lives, into our personal lives, occupying mind space that doesn't belong to us. And I think it's important for students to understand what belongs to them and what doesn't belong to them. What they deserve and what they don't deserve. So I think that policy has to address that...I'm not sure as far as policy goes within the institution, what they have in terms of policy in addressing these situations, but I'm pretty sure there's no grievance process, because if there was I'd probably know about it. So changing and addressing the situations...not really sure, I think that, I think that we're in a time within institutions in general and being Aboriginal in general, what am I, second, third generation of Aboriginal students to be actually attending university? I think within this university there's only been a few graduates that are, say, my grandmother's age. I can only think of one that would actually be the age of my grandfather, right? So I think that...I don't know what I'm trying to say here. I think we're kind of like pioneers. |
| [1,40] We're sort of pioneers, we're testing the limits, we're testing the environment, and I think it's important for us to voice what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, and to let the institution and the instructors know what's working and what's not working. What's positive and what's not positive. I think that there's only...and then on the other hand, I think that there's only so much that the institution can do, and I think that there's only so much that instructors can do. And I attribute a lot of it to the ignorance nation-wide, continent-wide, worldwide...so those are really big issues, so I'm not really sure how I am going to address these in the future...I'm gonna change the world! |
| [1,41] Karrmen ( to Amy): Do you have any questions? |
| [1,42] Amy: I guess one would be why you wanted to do this interview with us. |
| [1,43] Francine: This is a really good question, you know, because when I heard about this...actually I'll start from the beginning. The day that I was approached by Karrmen Crey I was doing another interview for another project, and it was having to do with education and I think, transition from secondary to postsecondary. We were in a group discussion and I was talking with another student and this issue came up. The issue within the classroom came up. My friend was really emotional and we had a full-on discussion about the whole situation where she related to me her experience and how she felt about it, and she got very emotional. I let her know about my...that situation, you know we were sharing, we were connecting, she's not from the same nation as I am, so in that way we have a shared sense of identity. This isn't the only person that I've spoken to about these situations. I have discussions with other Aboriginal students...now and then about this same situation, and how angry this person is, or how angry this made me feel, or the emotional and mental space that these issues occupy. |
| [1,44] So I was in that situation and we got done doing our group session, and I spoke with Karrmen Crey, and I was just like, wow, we were just talking about this situation, because Karrmen let me know what Karrmen and Amy's project was about, and I was like, "yeah!" and then I told my story again...and I was like, "wow, this is a really good project, this is totally a viable subject, it's totally issue," so I think that...I did it, in a short answer, I did it for it's transformative value. I like to engage myself in things that I believe are going to make a difference, so being a part of this project helps me change my situation. So, as much as I feel great about complaining about the situation, there's really nothing I can do unless I become a part of the project that demystifies the situation. I really appreciate the transformative value of this project. |
| [1,45] Amy: Thanks, Francine. |
| [1,46] Francine: You're welcome. |
| [1,47] Karrmen: Do you have anything else we forgot to mention, or anything you wanted to add? |
| [1,48] Francine: Yeah, I think that...I believe in the goodness of people. And I do believe that in most situations that I've been in, everybody in their way is good. Whether or not the situation turned out good is a different story. So I just wanted to acknowledge the fact that people have good intentions, but they may not turn out to be good situations, so I just want to make that differentiation. I think that's important. Just because a person says something that's not the greatest thing to say it doesn't mean that that person doesn't have the right intentions. So I think that's about it. Myself included. |
| [1,49] Karrmen: I think that's good. |
|
Dara Kelly |
| [2,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion around Aboriginal Issues in the classroom, or the ones you typically encounter at UBC? |
| [2,2] Dara: I am totally dissatisfied. I find that any discussion that does happen in the classroom is not engaging whatsoever. It's a very glossy discussion and I wouldn't even say it's a discussion I would say it's professors introducing a topic and maybe identifying one issue within the topic and then leaving that for the classroom to think about and then that's it, and then it's a moving on onto another topic. So it's just a topic it's not a discussion. |
| [2,3] Karrmen: Do you find that there is much variability from class to class in terms of the level, in terms of the discussion or your experiences of it? |
| [2,4] Dara: There's been one class where we have discussed Aboriginal issues in literature that has been particularly engaging and the professor worked really hard at not glossing and making it giving a lot of time for valid sort of emotions and thoughts to come out from the students. |
| [2,5] Karrmen: So what did she do that worked? Was there anything that you noticed that was helpful? |
| [2,6] Dara: Absolutely, I think that she stated the obvious. I think that she....just the fact that she recognized that Aboriginal students in the classroom have different experiences...I think that's really important and I haven't seen any other professors approach the issues like that because I think that's a different level of understanding of Aboriginal issues that...they are different from, than just talking about English than just talking about Sociology, so it's very specific I think. |
| [2,7] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues in the classroom? |
| [2,8] Dara: I think understanding that these are issues that are at an interactional level of student-to-student where...I don't know if I'm describing this right. That these issues are really, they're real and they exist today, so they don't exist in a neat little box that you can open up for academic discussion. You can't just keep it in the box and expect the box to be closed when the classroom time is finished. I don't think it has...I think that there's a tendency to do that when discussion any kind of social issues whether it's like poverty or sort of the three tiers of sociology - race, class, and gender - there' a tendency to want to put those things away once they're done with and I don't think that's....that's not helpful because there's lots of Aboriginal students who sort of experience this stuff on a daily basis and that box is always open, so putting the lid back on isn't, isn't helpful and I think that's what a lot of professors try to do once they bring the topic up, than it disappears and, and then it's just a topic. |
| [2,9] Karrmen: Well in sort of in that vein of things, what kinds of experiences have you had in the classroom that stick in your mind? |
| [2,10] Dara: Most, well...it's been a combination of professors and fellow student that have...contributed to a lot of experiences in the classroom where as an Aboriginal student you are left with feelings and emotions that all the other students aren't walking out of the classroom with, and, and they've been happening as recently as last week and that's, that's been since being back in university since 2004, so it's really ongoing and I would say I've had a couple of experiences in the classroom when... |
| [2,11] Let's say a professor asks you to give an example of...one example was how students of visible minorities have been or realize and know that they are othered in...in relation to the majority, and how the majority doesn't see when that othering is happening. So I was, the professor threw that out to say, give an example, and so what's kind of interesting is that my example was that children do it all the time to each other, just based on a variety of reasons, children exclude each other all the time and how the kid who is excluded obviously knows they've been excluded, the other kids wouldn't know because they haven't been excluded, and they just carry on with the rest of their day. So that was my example, say this out loud in the classroom, and the professor, I'm not sure if she didn't know what to say, or if she didn't think that that was a relationship that I had built because she didn't validate it with even a word response. I got "uh huh." That was the response and then she carried on, she moved on to a totally different topic so I was sort of left thinking, "Okay....well, that was a waste of my time and my energy." |
| [2,12] So, it was really discouraging being encouraged to participate in classroom and, and also the fact that I was kind of frustrated with the fact hat I buffered the experience of, of how visible minorities experience this kind of thing, and how it's the other....I related it to children so I put it in a context that was easily relatable to everybody, and it was, I was basically just ignored. And so it's not like I was saying, "White people do this all the time," or I didn't recognize anybody. I was just like, kind of confused about how that...I don't know. That's not necessarily specific to Aboriginal people, but we've had a coupe issues where she's brought up Aboriginal people and, and it's really easy, I think as a professor just to ask for input. And if nobody has input in the one question that a professor might ask about that, it's really easy just to say, "Okay, nobody has input fine. Carry on." You know, there's about a three second window where as an Aboriginal student you feel that you can contribute to the curriculum of that course, like three seconds out of a whole four months when...yeah. |
| [2,13] Karrmen: So, that moment where, you know, even you put that story, that relationship into a context of children and everything, and then she didn't do any...do anything with it. What do you think that situation was about? Why do you think that went down like that? |
| [2,14] Dara: I don't know. Well, I have been trying to think about what happened there. Why that example didn't elicit a response from her. Maybe because, maybe she really just didn't see the connection, maybe she had...I don't know, maybe she truly just didn't think it was a good example. That's the best I can come up with so I don't know, it's hard... |
| [2,15] Karrmen: But it's one of those memorable moments that stick with you? |
| [2,16] Dara: Yeah... |
| [2,17] Karrmen: Yeah. |
| [2,18] Dara: Especially because of the question itself. I could I could've said a whole variety of other things. I could've said, "Yeah, ever since I was in grade two I knew I was different." Easy enough. I could have said that as a visible minority I've been treated differently my whole life, so where does that come from when your seven years old? You're an othered person, so you know you've been othered? Of course I knew I was othered. I could see the way that other kids were treated and I could see the way I was treated and I know that's different, so I could have used that but I tried to put it I a context so the rest of the class could understand. Rather than just saying...so I thought that it was particularly constructive, but....evidently not. |
| [2,19] Karrmen: So do you find in classes people are looking...in terms of relating certain kind of contexts, explaining things in a certain kind of way....Do you see that in classes that people are asking you to relate a certain kind of way? They have expectations or something of what you should speak to, or how to speak to it, or something like that? |
| [2,20] Dara: I think so. I think that there's a lot of fear about....saying anything that is too direct or too in-depth because that might invite a response that is...I think people are afraid of Aboriginal students being really hostile. |
| [2,21] Karrmen: What gives you the impression? |
| [2,22] Dara: I think well I think that's from the media. I think that's everything about Aboriginal people in the media is portrayed as hostility and maybe resentment, and it's all negative feelings around Aboriginal issues that are portrayed in the media so I think that both professors and other students might think that that's the only response that Aboriginal students might have. So, I think if there's....it's almost like if there is no in-depth conversation available, then there's no fear of having that hostile response because your not opening the doors enough for any kind of response whatsoever, so you just disabling anybody from responding whether you're Aboriginal or not. |
| [2,23] Karrmen: So in that situation or in any...well I guess maybe in that situation, where you weren't really responded to, what was your response to the situation at the time? |
| [2,24] Dara: At the time....well I was expecting her to say something, so I sat there and I was like, "Okay, and immediately I said....I just thought well what a waste of my time. Why do I even bother contributing if it's not even gonna....there's no conversation that happened. It's like question, answer, done. We're done with that topic. So part of me...part of me actually wanted to put my hand up and say, "Was I wrong?" I knd of wanted to say that to the professor and say, "Do you disagree with me, that that's not a good example? Or why did you ask the question if you weren't going to respond to me either?" It's just, really was frustrating. |
| [2,25] Karrmen: What do you think would have made it easier to respond at the time? Is there anything that you can think of? |
| [2,26] Dara: Maybe if she had asked the question differently. That I don't know....but then I might not have responded at all. |
| [2,27] Karrmen: But even, maybe to her reaction, would you have been able to respond under any different...do you think that there's something that would have made you respond at the time? |
| [2,28] Dara: Well I didn't feel safe; after that I didn't really feel safe. I felt like because the professor didn't agree with my response that of course the students aren't going to agree. I know that there was only one other...Aboriginal, two others in the classroom, and that wasn't enough for me to feel safe enough to kind of stand up and say what I wanted to say. So I think that's maybe strength in numbers....I don't know, that's definitely why I feel safe talking about Aboriginal issues with other Aboriginal people because there's just a mutual understanding, and we all sort of have this same experience, so it's a safe environment. But yeah, when there's not other Aboriginal students I definitely have had, I would say almost every single course that Aboriginal issues come up I think that I choose not to say anything now. Yeah, it's really not safe because there's I think it is such a contentious topic and people are really afraid to talk about it. |
| [2,29] Karrmen: So what do you think instructors could do to kind of set the stage to have better interactions and better discussions? |
| [2,30] Dara: There as to be a very, very general knowledge that I'm not sure if the university's covering, can cover that before you even get to 300 and 400 level courses. Because if it's not an Aboriginal-focused course, then understandably professors don't want to focus on that, but at the same time it's, then that's why there's no thorough discussion about whatever the professor wants to specifically talk about in that area of Aboriginal issues, because there isn't the foundation that students can draw on. So that's really a systemic thing like there has to be...it has to be covered because it's all over the university that this is happening, and I'm taking a huge variety of courses and it's happening in every single one of them so I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even be able to say that, I just think that First Nations issues have to be a prerequisite for every department because your not going to get very far. And that's what I'm finding, is I'm not getting very far in these issues...so... |
| [2,31] Karrmen: So when you say that this is happening in, all over the university, what do you see happening, maybe I'm thinking of those specific incidents, but I mean obviously something is happening over and over, and do you have an example, an example of that kind of, that kind of thing that you've experienced at any point when you've been at UBC? |
| [2,32] Dara: Yeah...well, when looking at a literature piece that was written by an Aboriginal author, there was a student that said, just right out put her hand up and said, "why are Aboriginal people so screwed up?" I was like speechless, and totally disappointed and....really hurt, really hurt. Yeah, just disgusted that somebody would even say it like that. That somebody would even like...part of me is resentful that she is even ballsy enough to put her hand up and say something like that. Whether it's about Aboriginal people or whoever, you don't talk like that in university, like this is...I don't know, but it kind of came from that idea, like assumption that Aboriginal people aren't here. That they're not...she wouldn't take the care...Like, if it was a one-on-one conversation, she wouldn't have said that to my face if she knew that I was Aboriginal. |
| [2,33] So it really her anonymity was really easy to draw on so that she could feel, that she felt safe enough to say that you know. And maybe it's a little bit of faith on her part to think that nobody is going to counter her on the violence of those words. She felt safe enough thinking, "well, nobody is going to, nobody's going to assault me on the way I just asked that question." And I guess she was right because nobody said anything. Although the professor was, I could tell the professor was fairly appalled with the way she said it. She didn't really address it specifically, but so it was a little bit better than maybe the other classes but... |
| [2,34] Karrmen: So in that case, the instructor, you know, was kind of appalled but nobody said anything then? |
| [2,35] Dara: None of the other students did. And obviously in hindsight all these thoughts came to me later, where I was I actually wanted to say to her, "Are you talking about me?" Are you talking about me and my family? Like are you suggesting that me and my family is so screwed up and you're wondering why." I kind of wonder how powerful that might have been in the classroom, and whether she would have then had to think abut what she asked for real, and that's the kind of response I think I would ideally like to pose to every professor that allows that kind of stuff in the classroom as well. Because that's really what happens, that's what happened inside. When she asked that question, I was thinking, "well I'm Aboriginal so she's talking about me and my family." That's automatically where you go. |
| [2,36] I think that's hard because I think from an external point of view it's easy to say, well, she wasn't asking that. Then why did she say it in that way? She should think before she opens her mouth. |
| [2,37] Karrmen: At UBC do you do you see the classroom situation improving at all? |
| [2,38] Dara: As it's going right now, no. I don't see how like unless professors are proactively working with this kind of experiences in mind to say this is not going to happen in my classroom in this kind of ...behaviour in the classroom has to be addressed immediately when it does happen. Being able to recognize that it has happened, which I don't think, professors aren't able to do that at this point. And I, yeah, I think that they need a lot more training on this really specific topic, because it can't be addressed as a glossy thing at all. Like there's, you can't just go halfway with it, it's got to be really...yeah, really deeply addressed I think. |
| [2,39] Karrmen: So you mentioned teacher training, as far as becoming sort of more knowledgeable...I mean is that what you would like to see happen, are there other things that you would like to see happen in addressing these problems? |
| [2,40] Dara: Yeah, I would be so impressed with a professor who had ...who had really basic knowledge, because I am so unimpressed with a lot of my professors right now. That yeah, if somebody did have that kind of training and made their position really clear that his kind of thinking of, thinking about Aboriginal issues is not okay. Then yeah, I would feel way safer in the classroom too. Because then I think that the students can help the professor out as well, and then it's not just the professor as a mediator, I think, then it creates more of a cooperative environment where, yeah, tolerance is not accepted. Did that, any sense what I just said... "Tolerance is not accepted? Where there's no tolerance for it so, yeah, and then that would, yeah, I would just be totally impressed with a professor that was able to do that, and not just for Aboriginal issues either, like, that goes for respecting all visible minorities, because you can't address these kind of issues, like, that it's a different experience and it needs to be recognized and respected. |
| [2,41] Karrmen: I guess I 'm just sort of wondering why did you want to participate in this project? |
| [2,42] Dara: Because I think that I have had far too many of these experiences, and too many times of going home when the classroom is finished, when my time on campus is done and having these thoughts in my head, and I go over them and over them and I think, "what went wrong? Why do I feel like this? Why was I put in this position?" And why is, why is my experience an individual struggle with these issues why is it all on my shoulders at home going to sleep by myself like thinking about this kind of stuff, when this is really issues that are at a systemic and institutional level, and should be addressed at a systemic and institutional level to stop the kind of pain that it causes for individual people, is really ... really unfair and really, and it's also really powerful. |
| [2,43] So yeah, I think that this is a really important project that needs to be done and the more people that are becoming at least in tune with the fact that this is happening with a lot of students, and that's why we're doing this project, is because you know that's happening with a lot of students, so I think it's like, we're all having individual experiences but if it's created as a collective experience than there's power in numbers and that's much more powerful as well. So, I'd, yeah, I'd really like to participate in that because I hope that changes would happen in the university. |
|
Larry Nicholson |
| [3,1] Karrmen: Alright, so why don't we start with...how satisfied are you with the level of discussion that you encounter in classrooms that's about Aboriginal issues? |
| [3,2] Larry: One to ten, I would say a six and a half. |
| [3,3] Karrmen: What's that...? |
| [3,4] Larry: A six and a half... |
| [3,5] Karrmen: What's a six and a half? |
| [3,6] Larry: It's a better than average but not quite good. |
| [3,7] Karrmen: Yeah? |
| [3,8] Larry: Yeah, I would say. |
| [3,9] Karrmen: So, what is it about it that... |
| [3,10] Larry: Well, generally speaking I find that it's...a discussion that takes place between non-Native people, or usually it's a non-Native professor of course or instructor giving instruction on Native content of some sort or about an issue, and the dialogue typically seems to take place you know amongst non-Aboriginals about an Aboriginal issue, or event or topic. And I don't know if it's culturally we're not used to getting in there and really making ourselves you know be the focal point o the discussion because often I find that we'll sit back and just like sit there and watch everyone carry on this at times outrageous discussion about an issue that... you know have little or no actual knowledge about. |
| [3,11] Karrmen: So what do you...When you're talking about their discussions being kind of outrageous...what is it about their discussions that's...? |
| [3,12] Larry: Let's say we'll talk about something historical. If it's a subject that's historical and it's a part of what's now, you know, the public record, or it's now, because it's been published because it's on paper or it's in a book, now it's fact whether we like it or not. You're getting a whole group of...a whole group of students that are coming into the classroom and if they see it printed in that text book or that whatever piece of material it is that they're provided with, or if it comes from that instructor at the front of the class, then it's carved in stone and that's a fact. And you know I often hear things or...am provided with facts that I...you know often...well, often time I know that to be false or not to be the whole picture, that they've focused on just a small section of a larger topic or larger issue and kind of keyed on one more sensational or more tantalizing aspect of any given topic, let's say. And that's often what I find is that they..."they" (laugh), I don't want to get into that terminology... but...the larger... the dominant society you know often engages in the classroom setting in ideas that seem more... |
| [3,13] ...seem more flamboyant and more delicious and less subtle and less involved with the intricacy and the ... complicated way that I know things to be or to have become the way they are now, you know. |
| [3,14] Karrmen: So are there specific incidences that you've had that stick in your mind? |
| [3,15] Larry: Okay...in one class I was one of the only males in this class, but that's irrelevant, but I was certainly was one of three Native people in the class and so there must have been about forty-five non-Aboriginal students. The discussion went on about how difficult it was during the colonization period... as it was referred to in the class. As if colonization took place at a specific window of time. Anyways so the professor was quite sympathetic in saying that there was rough treatment of Aboriginal people and they were, you know, experienced some really heavy and harsh things...and at one point one of the non-Native students... one of the much younger ones... She put her hand up and she just rolled her eyes and it was just, "you know we're contributing to the big problem cause all we're doing is romanticizing Native people," and she says, "I mean they were out there raping and pillaging just like everybody else." |
| [3,16] And I didn't even know the one Native lady that was across the classroom but all of a sudden we both just shot each other looks like this... you know, I mean we didn't even have to...non-verbal communication and we're looking at each other like, "are you going to say something? Are you going to say something?" And so finally I didn't even stick my hand up I just, you know, said, "Hold on!" and then everyone turns to the back because I tended to sit at the back of the classroom. And I just said, "I'm not quite sure where you're getting your information," and I addressed her I didn't address you know the prof or whatever, I said, " you really have to check you're sources and get more than one source, because I'm not aware of what your talking about. Certainly not in my territory anyways. So before you go informing this entire class of that kind of stuff I think you should really think about what it is that you're saying." And then to the profs credit she, you know, she kind of followed up and she said, "yeah, I think it's really important that everyone has a right to their opinion, but we really have to think about, you know, what it is we are going to contribute to..." |
| [3,17] because she could tell that me and the other two Native gals, or me and these two Native gals were flabbergasted to hear something like that. You know it was a three hundred level course or whatever... |
| [3,18] Karrmen: Yeah... |
| [3,19] Larry: So I mean that's just one of the many. I hear statements like that all the time, like all the time. |
| [3,20] Karrmen: I guess maybe with that incident in particular...what was it about the moment that kept it in your mind? |
| [3,21] Larry: Well just how violent...just to here that that was the norm, or that that was something that was commonplace. And in my mind I have a real idea about what it is that a university is supposed to be doing...to the, for the student population at large and society you know in the larger picture. And I do know that some students have a more difficult time thinking for themselves than others and are less inclined critically assess what they're provided with in the classroom setting. Like I said, if they read it on the board, they see it in a textbook, or they hear it from a prof's mouth or whatever then it is carved in stone and that is a fact and it doesn't matter because they heard it, they heard it in class. So my concern, my main immediate concern is that you know you look around, not in this instance but other similar ones, you can look around the room and see people scribbling down notes when something's, you know, something's said. And you want to go like, hey, you know, erase that, cross that out cause you know that's just not the way it is. |
| [3,22] Karrmen: So at the time you...you said your response was to actually stop...did it work? Did that help you with the ...in terms of how you responded were you happy with that? |
| [3,23] Larry: Well it helped me... I mean, I wasn't happy about anything and you know, I mean I'm left feeling really indignant after the fact. We spoke earlier about different reactions to certain things, but sure, I mean, there's like some shaking trembling going on. First because you're...for me not so much angry, but just like all of a sudden it becomes out of the...you move into a different space with the engagement between students and what not. It became really personal. So it was more of a not so much anger but just a raw vulnerable type of... because all of a sudden I felt put on the spot that I, you know, am forced to address somebody... and she was much much younger than me so it felt like I was scolding my niece or something like that, I mean, I'm pretty sure was a teenager at the time, and this was you I would have been in my low thirties at the time, you know. |
| [3,24] Karrmen: Was there anything that would have made it easier to respond, made you happy or, you know, that you wanted in terms of a response that you'd wanted? |
| [3,25] Larry: I don't know what would've made a difference because I didn't...when I think back on it now the professor went, "okay, there's a point." She didn't say, "Yeah, you're right." But she said, "well there is a point that the danger is that you can romanticize or you can kind of try and gloss over." So to me that kind of seemed like validating what she had said. Now it wasn't that in retrospect or after I reflected on it, but what I didn't hear... I mean I needed to hear somebody else say something right away, like, "Hold on." So I gave it about ten seconds, twelve seconds, maybe fifteen seconds and I ended up... like I said I didn't raise my hand and I didn't address the prof I literally said "Hold on, hold on". But you know you don't have time to really to think what your measured response is going to be when it's something like that you know. |
| [3,26] Karrmen: So I mean is there...what might the instructors do to set the stage to have better interactions? |
| [3,27] Larry: Well I mean, I think they just have to be prepared and saying that I guess they have to...basically they have to know more. I tell you, what was really cool was meeting a non-Native person and after speaking to him for a couple hours, he was one of the first educators that said to me, "You know it's ironic that I as a non-Native person am teaching Native studies." And then we went to this luncheon, and I had to say a few words and he stood up and he said, " One of the best things we can do is just own up to the fact that we don't know nearly as much as we need to know". And that really...I thought that was a really cool thing for him to say. And so I guess...I mean I realize that it's hard to know a whole bunch of things about something outside of your own culture, but I know tons and tons about non-Native culture, lets say the dominant culture, I mean I just know that, right. So I mean, I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to ask, particularly the people that are of influence in the classroom setting, to at least be aware that there are Native students in the classroom. |
| [3,28] They can presume that they're going to be sensitive to, or at least really keen towards perhaps things like that, you know, I spoke about. That that is likely, I think that they should assume that that's likely to occur. That there is going to be some type of you know philosophical conflict or whatever and I think that they should at least be prepared to do some type of mediation. They might not have the answer, because I don't know if any of us do, but I mean I just think being prepared so it's not...so the students don't feel vulnerable, non-Native and Native, so they feel like all of a sudden they are in this adversarial position. Because it shouldn't be like that in a classroom. So I guess just being prepared for a clash...an ideological clash, let's say or something. |
| [3,29] Karrmen: So do you find that there's variability...in your experiences from class to class? |
| [3,30] Larry: Oh for sure, absolutely. |
| [3,31] Karrmen: Yeah? Like... |
| [3,32] Larry: Well there's...I mean, it just so happens that the one class that I also experienced a lot of...marginalization, let's say...it was a workshop and so it was all creative work that you were producing and showing to each other and I was the only Native person in there. I continuously had to give them context. They weren't satisfied with what was on the page and I continually had to say, "Well, well yeah, but it said on a reserve..." "Oh, but it doesn't say that..." I go, "Well, you know yours doesn't say that it was set in a non-Native community but I understand... that," like, I'm a decent enough writer to render something that if you understand anything you should understand...like you don't even have to know me that I wrote it, but from what's on the page it's obvious that this is in a non-Native community. I mean, I'm a good reader and I don't ask inane questions like that of your work. I mean, that's how I felt at the time. And then so the implication was that everything's the same everywhere you go. |
| [3,33] You know the Rez is just like any other small town or ...Native people are just like white people or whatever...maybe in a big universal sense they are whatever...but when your getting into specific pieces of work and stuff like that you know... I found that took place a lot, but the professor, the guy that was in charge was a much older guy, he's retired now. I don't know if it's because he had been around so long, but he was really good. I often didn't have to provide background or context on an issue, he was able to like... He would say, "oh, he's referring to such and such an incident in history, or he's referring to this...you know this is the metaphor that he's referring to or whatever. To his credit I mean actually that's one that really stands out in my mind where you know where I really felt supported. You know this is a non-Native person and...but I find it just so happens that my main experiences have been with profs that are younger...and I don't know if that's it. Just haven't...don't know enough...haven't been around long enough to learn the subtleties of Native experience right...somewhat, you know. |
| [3,34] Karrmen: So what do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues in the classroom? |
| [3,35] Larry: Well I mean...if you're non-Native, I mean, that's just going to be difficult. I mean, it's difficult enough being Native trying to you know get across your experiences and what not. And just the fact is that if you're a non-Native person who has studied Native content and are now charged with providing instruction in that area, chances are you've been taught or schooled, lessoned, learned, instructed in a specific geographical area of Native people. And as Native people know you know I mean it's different...it can be vastly different from here to a community thirty miles away, different language, different customs, different...you know, so I mean, it's I think it's really difficult for anyone to be able to provide information about Native people because there's such a ... Our nations are so diverse and because there are so many nations and so many different languages and so many you know just such a diverse set up that it's, I mean, it's almost impossible. You basically have to pick one area and kind of head in that stream, I think, and about the rest you say, well, I don't know or I can't really say too much about that, you know. |
| [3,36] Karrmen: So you mentioned that course where you were doing some writing and that was, you know, actually being a pretty good experience, but in your experience have there been moments that have been noticeably better or worse than the kinds of ones you've been talking about? |
| [3,37] Larry: Oh, well definitely. I'll go negative first...I don't know why that's easier but...specifically, there was a piece and it was workshopped and then you get feedback on it and the metaphor that I used to end the piece...someone says, "Oh yeah, and at the end where you say 'And only my grandfathers know the sky's in which I fly,' I thought that was clich�." And then over here, "Yeah I thought so too," and then you know this guy, "yeah, I didn't buy it either." And then the guy at the front is like, "yeah it's like enough with the 'Grandfathers' already." And I was just... you know that's when I was shaken, because I knew what I meant to say and I said it the way I wanted to say it and it was supposed to come across that way but what they said...is literally...what I just said is literally what was said in the classroom. But what I heard was you know, "Well, you guys are clich�, you're characters if you're still hanging onto this idea about Grandfathers and that kind of thing." They were saying that that's clich�, and you know you wanted to grab them all by the scruff and go, "Well this is who we are." So that was a toughie. |
| [3,38] My response to that was to...the following week write word-for-word what was said in the classroom and then give that a title so that would be called a "found piece." So I quoted them all and it was just amazing once they read it, because at the bottom I put an asterisk and just said found in this classroom on this date. It was amazing because they all backpedaled. "Oh well I didn't mean...yeah, I didn't mean clich�, I meant maybe there was a stronger, maybe there was you know..." So once you kind of held that up to them...held their own words up to them it was amazing how they wanted to distance themselves from what they said right on the spot there, you know. |
| [3,39] Karrmen: Hm. Well I don't know...how long have you been at UBC now? |
| [3,40] Larry: Well, I'm in my fourth year of my program... taking years off here and there. Was it one year on... three years off...Well anyways, I started in ninety-eight following ninety-eight and I should be finished in six weeks. |
| [3,41] Karrmen: Oh, okay...have you...do you see the classroom situation improving here... in your experience? |
| [3,42] Larry: Honestly, no. I would have to say no. But that's...it could be tricky because my area of study is all creative stuff, so you do get a much different type of engagement in the classroom and between students than you do in... So now I'm finishing off doing all my requirements, which are all academic. So it's a much different type of thing. There's much less dialoguing going on in the classroom it's a lot of lecture and note taking and whatnot so...there's less of a chance to respond directly. In the first...let's say, the first half of my degree I took all of my faculty related classes so much less formal. You could actually turn to the guy and say, "Hey," you know or whatever. The way it is now I mean it's not the same. I took a few academic courses way back in the day and I don't know... Even in a completely different academic course that was not related to the humanities at all, a prof just in passing bellowed out a theory related to the land bridge. |
| [3,43] And of course we all know that's how "our" Native people managed to come to this country or managed to come to this continent (laugh). Everyone just turns the page and keeps writing. You hear all the pages tuning and stuff and I was just like "Man..." I turned to my buddy who was also a Native guy, I go, and "did you hear what that person just said?" And of course first of all that's a matter of conjecture, there's no proof either way of that the old land, you know, Bering land bridge theory or whatever. And second of all, that's how our Native people came to this continent. I mean I'm a words guy and I pick my words very carefully. You know one word one word... Go to the Law faculty and they'll tell you how much one word means you know it makes all the difference. So you know... I mean this is an educated person, presumably. They are a Doctor of their area study and here they're, you know, they're very in charge of their vocabulary and the words they're using, you know, how our Native people came to be on this continent, you know. I mean, that's really small. I don't even know if my pal picked up on that or maybe I'm just overly sensitive or something but it's I mean you know that was just a few weeks ago. |
| [3,44] And I do, I see that kind of thing all the time. Like all the time. I don't mean every day every five minutes but I mean at least every four to five classes in a given you know... From Monday to Friday at least every fourth class you'll hear a nugget (laugh) like that. And I don't go looking for it but I mean I paying attention you know. These are classes and that's what your supposed to do right? |
| [3,45] Karrmen: So...what would you like to see happen to kind of address this? |
| [3,46] Larry: Well...it would take restructuring the whole way that a person acquires their degree, but it should be mandatory regardless of your area of study, regardless of your faculty, there should be an Aboriginal component. And it should be instructed by an Aboriginal person. I don't know if it's history or language or if it would be something regional specific to your area or what, I don't know. But I do know that I think that there should be some form, you know, people will go through this entire university experience: undergraduate, postgraduate, doctoral, masters, whatever. They'll go through that entire thing and not know a thing about Native people you know. They're on Salish ground and you know they will be here for ten years and not know a thing about...like nothing authentic or nothing true about Native people, and I just think that's completely wrong. |
| [3,47] Karrmen: So...kind of at the end of the questions but for myself I'm kind of wondering...what made you interested in participating in the project? |
| [3,48] Larry: I read the type of experiences you want and I understood what you're doing. There's one class that I'm taking in particular that it really strikes me how often in this... I have it twice a week, ninety minutes each time...I am struck every single lecture at how many times during the lecture I want to stand up and go you know, "Hold on, hold on, hold on." Because it's pretty much a lecture, note taking, write a pape,r and that's it. There's very little, there's very little dialogue that goes on in the classroom. And it's almost over, but I mean it's a pretty frustrating class to have to sit through, I'm telling you. Again it's a whole bunch of non-Native students, there's a handful of us Native students, but it's all Native content. It's, yeah, been incredibly frustrating to have to do that for three hours a week knowing that's going out there as fact. I understand it's...I mean, I guess he means well or they mean well or whatever, but it hardly makes it, justifies, what I perceive to be inaccuracy, to say the least. |
| [3,49] Karrmen: I don't know if there's anything else that I didn't ask or if you wanted to say, because we have some tape time, if there's something else you wanted to include... |
| [3,50] Larry: I think I've pretty much said...I just think that...I think that the conscientious educator and the conscientious student will want to know more, and will not make assumptions. If you really want to, if you really want information, it's out there. And if you're doing it properly, it's just like anything; it's like in our different societies and our different cultures. Knowledge isn't out there for everybody; it's earned and there's protocol, but it's there if you want it. And if you're willing to do it properly, you can get it. So, I just think it's everyone's responsibility, Native and non-Native, to do that, to actively engage in it. |
|
Otis Jasper |
| [4,1] Otis: Yeah, there's certain...I guess certain classes that primarily what we discuss is First Nations issues, in other classes that aren't specifically directed towards First Nations issues Aboriginal issues, but they come. They encounter, they have to cross-section with First Nations issues, they tend to not go into very much detail or they do very surface justice to the issue and kind of re-iterate some common knowledge or, you know, that Residential school is a bad thing. They don't go into depth, it's quickly brought up and left. |
| [4,2] Amy: So typically, if a topic such as Residential schools, or the one you mentioned, is brought up...who dismisses it? Like what kind of dynamic is going on there? Is it the students that change the subject...is it the teacher who's, you know...or does it just trickle off? |
| [4,3] Otis: Well, if the subject is brought up by the teacher sometimes, you know, there will be a simple question as, "what are they?" and that may actually lead into the conversation or "What's the big deal about Residential schools?" Generally nobody really wants to pick up that conversation. You know, I've found myself at times waiting to hear what anyone knows about them at all or to begin conversation. A lot of times I find if you actually participate in a conversation about something like Residential schools and you talk some history about it, it tends to get no reaction from the rest of the students or that's kind of the end of the story. When you try to go into depth about a topic like Residential schools it almost seems pointless. Other students don't seem to...like when I say they don't react or respond the teacher doesn't react or respond, it seems to be why even offer that information. Did anybody even hear that? |
| [4,4] Amy: Do you want to hazard a guess as why you think that they wouldn't respond, or do you have any...? |
| [4,5] Otis: It's tough to say. You know at times in classes you're the only Aboriginal student sometimes or First Nations student. And when an issue like or a topic like Residential schools or the Indian Act, treaties in BC, when those issues come up and students say, they do comment initially they tend to glance over at you after every second word they say. Whether that's being respectful or what they're definitely aware of the Aboriginal students in the class...not always but they tend to be. |
| [4,6] Amy: Is there much variability in your experience from class to class and subject to subject? |
| [4,7] Otis: With the... |
| [4,8] Amy: With Aboriginal issues and your experiences with the discussions surrounding those in classes. So, from subject to subject is there variability in your experiences? |
| [4,9] Otis: I would say definitely. There's courses that talk about, you know, the policies of Aboriginal issues and they talk about some certain events and there's others that will talk about it more as a kind of a formality in something, an obstacle in some ways. I find in the two different types of courses it depends on the professor. There's professors in the university who after a short time of experiencing them and their techniques you get a sense of security with them. Where as I feel safe to speak or offer something and I know that the professor in the end will also have something to say or will also back me up. They will be able to add clarity to the conversation. Because a lot of the issues are emotional at times, that I'm not always guarded with what I say and sometimes that emotion comes through and with certain professors they offer that security to be able to express myself in that way. Whereas other professors it's just not there. You have no idea whether they are going to turn and run from the subject or...there is just no confidence there is no safety. You almost fear them going into those issues because you know that emotion is going to be there. |
| [4,10] And there's certain attitudes in the other students that are there, so it's that level of hostility or that anticipation of what could come about is present and the professor doesn't really...there's no confidence in them to provide a sense of safety. |
| [4,11] Karrmen: What like kinds of techniques or what ways do you find that you can get the confidence in those instructors? What do they do that works for you? |
| [4,12] Otis: Well, thinking back to this one class that I had and this one professor when I first came to UBC actually. I was in the class, I didn't know what to expect...I came from another institution that there's a lot of safety in...and a question came from one of the non-Native, non-Aboriginal students, about the Sioux people. And we were talking about colonization and talking about different battles that occurred pre- and post-contact. And the question was, "didn't the Sioux do the same to other Aboriginal people that has happened with colonization?" And it was really interesting because this class happened to have about five or six other Aboriginal students, and there's immediate response from those Aboriginal students and it was a very emotional response. There was instant energy in the class. And with those answers, with those responses, it wasn't quite answering the question it was more of a...kind of an attack and then a response to the attack. That was the feeling in the class. |
| [4,13] And in the end the professor, she allowed the conversation to go forward and then she responded to the question by asking the person who asked the question to kind of think about why you asked that. "What are you trying to elicit by asking that question? Are you justifying? Is that was it was?" And so that was a moment that really...that was the moment that, that professor really gained my respect and as well it just kind of evolved to have more freedom to express. And also that question really brought the Aboriginal questions together. And when we were leaving the class the lady who asked the question...and she asked it honestly. I think it wasn't...she just didn't realize what she was doing, like the professor pointed out. When she left the class she was speaking to another student and she said, "oh my god, it got so hostile in there," like you know, "like, wow." She had no idea why, it was just like, "what happened?" She didn't understand what had happened. Which was just honest ignorance I guess on her behalf. And that's an unfortunate thing that you find a lot of times at university. There's a lot of students who just honestly don't know. A lot of professors for that matter who don't know a lot about Indigenous and Aboriginal issues. |
| [4,14] Amy: So, what was that...like once you guys came back the next day or the next session of that class...what was the dynamic in class after that kind of discussion took place? |
| [4,15] Otis: Well, it's interesting cause we have...that class is split into two. So you have your lecture and question period and after that you break into group discussion. And following that intersection... So we went into our group discussion I kind of looked around noticed that there was this wall of Aboriginal students, First Nations and M�tis students in this one...we were all in the one end. Like, it brought us all together and we all kind of in some ways we all reached...without even really consciously doing it, we were all just kind of lined up sitting together and it was... You know the rest of the class just kind of you know took it in I think and I don't know how they responded but as far as the Aboriginal students it really brought us together at that moment. |
| [4,16] Amy: Like in a good way? Or do you think that was just a line of separation? |
| [4,17] Otis: No it was definitely in a good way. It I think really added to the class in the long run. Because, one, the professor provided that sense of safety. Two, because it brought us the students together and what that resulted in...probably for the rest of that class we were a lot more confident in bringing our perspective and sharing what we had to say. That we felt safe that other students would back us up and that the professor would offer that safe environment for us to participate. |
| [4,18] Karrmen: Well, you've been talking about... Like that's one of those experiences that turned out really positive and...I don't want to tell you to say, you know, balances the positive with negative or anything... But are there other experiences you've had here that, other moments that are sticking your mind around those types of experiences? |
| [4,19] Otis: Yeah, there's like...again it comes back to moments in the class where you're discussing an issue... Say you're discussing the world view of an Aboriginal group or a certain people and you have certain opinions that are coming out about that kind of display or view...that world view...the Aboriginal world view as being very hokey pokey or very...you know, the kind of mythological or just kind of like, "aren't these people kind of funny in the way they believe this"...kind of a half-laugh. And those moments you want to respond, you don't know how to respond and you may or may not respond and when that happen you don't...you leave that class and you don't forget about it as much as you'd like to think you forget about it. You still carry it with you and sometimes it turns into anger. Maybe you come back next class and you blast away on something. But besides that it's that feeling of... it's almost that you in some ways internalize it and it really weighs you down for your other studies for any other class. And the professors they don't respond to it. |
| [4,20] And they usually don't respond to that. Maybe because a lot of them are non-Native that are discussing these issues or when this issues comes up but they don't tend to even point out the way other students are reacting to the issue or their comments about it. So in some ways you feel forced that if you don't speak up about it and don't say something about it than nothing is going to be said. So you're kind of caught in that crossfire. Do you say something? Can you say something? I mean am I going to be too emotional to say something? And it can be defeating because if you don't than you go home feeling like you...you really question yourself and your abilities you know. It's just a heavy feeling. Again another instance with a professor...I went through the entire course with...in the class it was done quite well. There were certain you know instances that weren't so great and there was ones that were good...but in the very end kind of the conclusion lecture of the class and of the concluding minute of the class left it with this concept about Aboriginal people and about kind of the defining statement of who they're becoming and the situation is now. |
| [4,21] And that was the end of the class and I totally disagreed with what the professor had said but there was no recourse there was nothing it was just...that was how it was ended. I ended up taking with the professor after and we discussed further that subject but the rest of those students left with that. And it was kind of like, in it's own way a battle had been lost with those students who you know their minds and their...were learning more about Aboriginal issues but they left with, in my opinion, not so great view or conclusion of that course. |
| [4,22] Amy: So do you think that kind of that technique of just you know posing kind of a heavier question at the end of class is a way to get out of discussing touchy subjects? Or has that been a common experience in other classes? Like have you ever felt like something was brought up and it's like, "Oh, there's five minutes of class left, how convenient, we don't get to talk about this?" |
| [4,23] Otis: Yeah, there seems to be you know a real...there's a little window of opportunity to discuss further and you don't always formulate what you want to say in that time and you don't always get your emotions under control within that amount of time to take about it. And it's definitely common...and I had a story I wanted to say about that but I don't remember. |
| [4,24] Karrmen: In those kinds of situations...I mean that's a pretty, you know, specific situation, you know, they wait until the last minute to make a concluding statement that people are going to be leaving with and, you know... What can you sort of do in those situations? But you were talking earlier about situations where, you know, somebody you might have that emotional response and...I mean, that's kind of like how you respond but... In those situations can you...do you have ideas of what would make it easier? Like, as far as the whole classroom environment what would make it easier for you to respond in those situations? |
| [4,25] Otis: In some ways I think maybe given the content and some of the issues that are going to be discussed... You know if a professor knows...you know they usually plan their...I like to think they plan their lectures beforehand, that you could even give some students a little bit of a heads up as to what, you know, "Today we're going to be discussing Residential schools," say...that maybe allows you to formulate something that you may want to say, whether or not you do or not that's besides the point... But I also allows you to prepare I think emotionally for what may be coming. Because there's usually some common comments made about certain topic you know. Certain questions you run into people just not knowing what Residential school was or not knowing why Indians are so screwed up. You know that kind of commentary it's just like you get to the point now where it's not uncommon to hear that and at the same time understanding now that a lot of the times the students aren't trying be aggressive in those comments, they just don't know. |
| [4,26] They may have read of something in the paper or saw a headline or two in a news flash, but they don't know any details about the history of things and kind of the evolution and generational effect of those things. So I think by giving some heads up to students, allowing them to kind of prepare themselves. That may be one way of helping. |
| [4,27] Amy: Do you think that...by non-Aboriginal students asking those types of questions, you know about Residential schools or whatever...do you think that's a positive thing that kind of discussion happening? Do you think that it's necessary to happen? |
| [4,28] Otis: It's necessary it's just a matter of where and when I think at times. A lot of time you run into some of these questions... these very innocently ignorant questions in a three or four hundred level class which really kind of slows things down and you got to kind of take things from square one again. I think you know myself coming to school...I came here to learn from the professors, came here to learn from my readings and such but a major aspect of why and who I came to learn from is other students because I find them very reflective of society and what else is out there. They're kind of a good microcosm of the society in general and to see those attitudes...to see the level of lack of knowledge or lack of information that's out there will help me when I go down and when I'm kind of away from this little shelter this time being so in that sense I see it as very necessary. It's just unfortunate that it's not done in a bigger scale. You know what's the institutions purpose within society? Given the fact that this university, UBC is located in BC that I think that there needs to be more... |
| [4,29] ...it has a responsibility to promote more of an awareness of the original people of this land the Aboriginal people here, the Musqueam people here. Because it's within society you're addressing that lack of awareness, which in turn it creates different social tensions between different people of different backgrounds and ethnicities. Not to mention the Aboriginal students themselves, who as a result of Residential schools, as a result of the Sixties Scoop, different legislation policies, the Indian Act...our experiences are so different we come from so many different paces that I find even the Aboriginal students themselves have barriers... legislative barriers, that whether or not they're real or imagined they affect the relationship between Aboriginal students...being the M�tis, the status, the non-status, these categories seem to be divided by a stigma of legislation that, you know, we have to get through and these types of discussions can help us get through but they don't often happen it's a ... yeah. |
| [4,30] Amy: So you were mentioning responsibility and who should be responsible for these kind of discussions either occurring in the classroom or before... Would you...as a hierarchy of responsibility, where do you think that should start...that responsibility should start? Do you think it should be the students informing other students of you know these...this lack of knowledge? Do you think it should be the teacher, or where should that responsibility start? |
| [4,31] Otis: In some ways...I had one class where the professor right for the very start laid out a lot of issues you know and spoke about...even about general lack of knowledge or ignorance that most students in this classroom probably have about the history of Aboriginal people. And so right away by doing that she kind of opened that door. She allowed that conversation as a potential avenue as well as prepared...As a student I knew that there's going to be a lot discussed, potential to be a lot of sensitive type issues that are going to be being discussed and the majority of the students were non-Aboriginal so also realizing what sort of commentary that was going to potentially come from those students. So at the same time I thin it's you know there needs to be a balance of responsibility but it's always nice to have somebody kind of spark it or you know open that door. |
| [4,32] Amy: Have been any other experiences that you've had in the class that have been notably better or worse? |
| [4,33] Otis: In the sense of discussions or...? I'm not too sure. Like maybe we could flesh that out a bit more. |
| [4,34] Karrmen: I guess it's like I mean in terms of your own experiences of classroom discussions... I mean you did mention early on that you know techniques that instructor use you know make it a place where you could kind of have better discussions and then you know but also I mean the fact of like that technique when an instructor who at the end of the class he just made this blanket statement where Aboriginal people are heading and you know and then it's last class and you walk out and it's like, "Oh, is that where we're heading?" Like, you know, and I guess we're just thinking in terms of your own experiences of those kinds of discussions I mean are there other ones that stick in your mind that have been noticeably better or worse or... You know that you can add to or whatever? |
| [4,35] Otis: Maybe something else will pop into my head. I was just thinking of this one time the professor was discussing about... about the topic of how First Nations, Aboriginal people you know there's very distinct differences and they have different ways of life and different backgrounds that they don't speak for every one. You know they don't speak for all Aboriginal people. And the topic was discussed for you know a good portion of time. And then we broke into small groups to discuss a book that we had read. And there was something about the crows and what the crows meant and it was like this...they all looked at me at once to find out what the crows meant ,you know, was you was an Indian person and it kind of baffled me that we just didn't we just talk about this? It was, it was rough! |
| [4,36] Karrmen: What did you do like...how did you react? |
| [4,37] Otis: Yeah but, it was tough because I just looked at them and thought maybe they were kidding. Because, you know, because in light of what we just talked about and then two minutes later they turned to me and asked the Indian's...and yeah I can't remember what was answered it was just kind of yeah it was very...I learned something from that for sure, too. |
| [4,38] Karrmen: So in that situation it's just like, you know, you just didn't you just gave them the best answer you could? |
| [4,39] Otis: Well now when I think of it I well kept wanting to talk again about as a Sto:lo person and some of the stories that I've been taught and told my knowledge isn't that not that we never talked about crows that much back home or hadn't heard a lot of stories about crows but I guess somewhat averted the crow conversation and kind of reinforced what the professor just talked about that, you know, I am Sto:lo or I am my own person and I come from my own place and people, and so my world view and the way I see things are going to be much different than what this person may be describing in their book. As far as crows from my own opinion... |
| [4,40] Amy: Do you see the classroom situation here improving at the moment? |
| [4,41] Otis: Well, in certain ways it is as far as you run into a certain professor or a certain class that things go well, and you really like the way they handle this certain situation or discuss certain topics and then that class is over, then you go over to your next class and you know, it's square one it's an unsafe environment. They are like, this one class I talked about how Native people and the potlatch how it was how it was reflective of the Royal Proclamation and how about what was meant in a Royal Proclamation almost gave the impression that the potlatch were held to honor the Royal Proclamation and they abided by the Royal Proclamation and they kind of glanced over that subject and it was over and I was thinking about it after and I talked to two other students, two other Aboriginal students, and we all kind of scratched our head about that because it was just, it was very, I don't know, an odd way of interpreting some history that again the students, the other students that that saw that and heard that, you know, you wonder what they left with thinking that the potlatch... |
| [4,42] was in conjunction with the Royal Proclamation and the Native people were conforming their practices to this British legislation that...yeah. |
| [4,43] Amy: So...I guess however long you've been at UBC in the time you've started to...well you're graduating this year...In that span of time has there been a noticeable difference in the way Aboriginal issues are spoken about in class? |
| [4,44] Otis: I think over the course of my time here in seeing students that I've seen say some non-Aboriginal students in a few of my courses along the way and you can hear and see in their comments you know that that they themselves have come a long way and what really adds to the class dynamic, is its really nice to at times. Say a Residential school comes up in a class room and a non-Native student picks that question up and they're able to say something, and they're able to say something about it and you know you don't always have to be the ones to take on those issues, that again it adds that safe feeling right and at the same time you're continuously coming up against those unaware people where that, it's just you know others needs to be something done I think earlier on in the institutional experience, in a 100-level class or something, that provides people with a general knowledge so that, you know, it allows deeper conversation, not only that but people become more aware even if its just a little bit but it opens up some of their some of those doors so that everything they hear or read... |
| [4,45] in the media they just don't take for truth, that they can offer critical analysis of that even if its just a little trickle of knowledge. |
| [4,46] Amy: How do you...I guess this is a little off topic, but how do you see people's what they've learned about Aboriginal issues and topics at UBC once they leave the university how do you see that transcending into other areas? Either positively or negatively? |
| [4,47] Otis: Well, I'd say based on those students who have learned and taken Aboriginal courses and learned some history that otherwise that they wouldn't come across unless they you know read about and took their own time that many people leave and go to their own pockets of groups and different social groups and they end up in different places in society and, you know, now that they have a bit of knowledge they've come in contact with other Aboriginal students that in their conversation, you know, they can offer, you know, different perspective or a different view of a certain subject. When you talk about fisheries for instance, some people may have learned a little bit more about the use that that First Nations or Aboriginal people have that in that the way it fits in their life, so I think that by non-Aboriginal students or people learning about Aboriginal issues here, that if it has an impact on society after they leave where the dialogue or discussion that occurs is more, where is more, I don't know, what it is like the more people come aware the less ignorance there is obviously... |
| [4,48] I'm not quite hitting what I want to say but,...yeah, it's like my own experience with my friends and even myself learning more about First Nations history and Aboriginal history and learning, you know, the intimacies about what took place and I talk with my friends and my circles and my non-Aboriginal friends and Aboriginal friends and we talk about some of these issues and through our discussions, you know, they leave feeling like they know a bit more and never thought of it that way, and I know from their coming back to me to talking about they're at work at the construction site and this topic came up because of this paper and they got into some battle with somebody and they used some history I've shared with them or even they themselves have learned in school, and you can just see the impact that it has in these pockets of society that without this information there would be just this continuance of that ignorance. A continuance of that those attitudes and beliefs of Aboriginal people and history that would otherwise, yeah...I lost it, but... |
| [4,49] Karrmen: You did speak to what you wanted to see in terms of people going out and saying and doing something that would actually change the conversation...I don't want to beat a dead horse here if you think we are, but are there other things that you want to see happen here at UBC classrooms, or at UBC in general...but maybe we're thinking of those classroom environments... are there things you'd like to see happen there that would improve the discussion around Aboriginal content? |
| [4,50] Otis: Wow, that's tough... I think there's so much that could be done as far as exactly what that is, it's tough to nail down. But for the most part nothing is done so, you know, it's such a wide gap. There's such a need for something because there's nothing generally. It's hard to even think of one thing in particular that could be done. I think that things need to be attempted, success or failure in those attempts. At least things can move forward from there. Again there needs to be some general knowledge from people in the classroom. And there needs to be that security from the professor. The professors need to be... if they're going to encounter those conversations and those topics, the professors need to be...have knowledge of it and make the students aware. I don't know... yeah, I don't know, it's... This other student that I was talking to, she went into a class... they had like a cohort, so there was always them the same group... and they were discussing something... What was coming up it was about this Native family who did something with their child and evaded the authorities to protect their child and their view and their worldview of what should and shouldn't be done. |
| [4,51] Anyways, the went into this whole discussion where the whole class was then talking about basically Indians and their ways and was it an ethical choice...but discussing Indian people and their way and their choice of being. And for her sitting in that class, it was very, very emotional, because this was people offering these opinions and having these attitudes towards it which she would have preferred to get a heads up from her professor knowing that this was going to be the topic of discussion to at least allow us to be prepared for it. In talking to the professor, there was three Aboriginal students and from then on in that program any time that one of those issues came up or situations came up they would have a meeting prior to that class and the professors would sit down and they would talk about it. They would even talk collaboratively with the professor and the Aboriginal students and they would discuss some ideas about how to discuss this topic that may be a little bit more sensitive and a little more...accomplishing what the professor wanted as well as doing justice to the topic and preparing the students for what was going to be discussed. |
| [4,52] Amy: That's a really interesting technique I think. I guess if you could give advice to a cousin or brother or sister who was coming into university or a heads up on anything... What would you want to say to them I they were coming to university...or a heads up on anything? What would you want to say to them if they are coming to university? Is there any advice you would want to pass on? |
| [4,53] Otis: Well, they are going to run into attitudes. They're going to run into negative attitudes, ignorant beliefs. You're going to hear them whether or not you want to or not. It's going to really challenge you. So just basically prepare yourself for that. Find support networks for when that may occur. Usually other students are the best support for that. Because you know that can be what defeat you. If you just take that in and internalize it that can be what brings you down. That can be what makes you go home and not come home at Christmas break. You know you go home for a week and you just don't come back. Those moments can defeat you. Find somebody to talk to even if they are support services within the institution. Also remember that their presence in that classroom, whether or not they decide to speak or not, has an impact on that classroom and what is discussed and how it is discussed...and to work through those so that you can continue that fight. I think Aboriginal students are a major player I the war, the warfare that is occurring. |
| [4,54] I see the classroom as a battlefield. Those students are warriors. It's a different type of warrior. You are empowering yourself. This is their tool, this is their weapon and it's making it that much stronger. As we continue our healing journey it's a part of our survival. It's a part of becoming more resilient so that future generations can come and pick up and take up those paths that they are blazing, opening up whatever. |
| [4,55] Amy: One more question. Why did you want to come and be part of this project? |
| [4,56] Otis: I think in some ways it's a part of making change and hopefully making change in an institute. I believe there is people out there that make change and have power to influence change. I think something like this can help facilitate that change and help empower some of those people who can have that influence in making change in the institution so that students don't have to be violated or encountered that violence in the classroom that can defeat them. At time it brings up your entire growing up in this racism and stereotypes and attitudes and beliefs that you've encountered your whole life. That something can be done or transformed in some way so that it is that positive encounter. And there's ways of coping and avoiding those negative and defeating type encounters in the class. There's so many students who you see for a month or two, you see them around class or you see them around the Longhouse or you see them on campus for that matter, and then they just kind of disappear. |
| [4,57] You know it's like, "I wonder what happened to that person or so and so? Have you seen them?" Even when students are gone for a week or two you know you sometimes worry and wonder what's happening. And then they show up and it's like, "Oh good you know you're still alive and still going strong." |
|
Kyla Lee |
| [5,1] Amy: Alright, Kyla, so how satisfied are you with the level of discussion in classes that address Aboriginal issues? |
| [5,2] Kyla: I'm more satisfied in the upper level courses than I was in lower level ones. Um, that's okay to say right? Mainly because the upper level courses deal with the issues on a more theoretical and intellectual level, and you're allowed to discuss things about change, and about issues that you can actually apply in your work. And also, I think that part of it comes down to the fact that you're closer to being done so you're thinking about what you're going to do afterwards... yeah, but it seemed that the issues we encountered in the lower level courses were more based on history and fact than they were on...rather than solution based, or...you know...yeah. |
| [5,3] Amy: Okay, has there been much variability in your experience from class-to-class? Subject-to-subject, in the discussion? |
| [5,4] Kyla: Yeah, discussions in classes that aren't specifically about First Nations issues obviously are full of people who don't really know a lot, and even in classes that are...people come in there with these sort of, it seems that they come in there with these ideas about Native people and Native history that's sort of based on what their grandparents said or whatever, that's formed out of these historically racist ideologies that are just wrong, downright wrong, is basically most of the things that I've encountered. The typical, "Oh well, you know, Native people get their education for free," I hear that all the time. |
| [5,5] Amy: How do you usually react when you hear those kinds of comments? |
| [5,6] Kyla: Something like that, I get offended, because I'm not getting a free education, I work really hard to pay. Right off the bat, I'm offended because I know that's not true and that people are resentful, and when people find out that I have Aboriginal ancestry they get resentful to me for this "free education" that I'm supposedly receiving, that's not true. Then you correct them and they're like, "oh, maybe not you because you're M�tis or whatever." No, it's not true all over. "Oh, well, you wouldn't really know because you're M�tis." No, I would know, it's kind of what I'm studying. |
| [5,7] Amy: What kind of conversations go on during the class typically that you encounter around Aboriginal issues? Are there any comments within the class that are made? |
| [5,8] Kyla: There are always comments made, either by profs or by students. It seems like in almost every class I take somebody always says something, usually to illustrate a point about how great it is now that we're so civilized because before we weren't. Before White people came this poor country was terrible...that seems to come up a lot... A lot of stuff about the difference between oral and written and histories, and oral and written stories, and which one is more valuable. And even though Beowulf was originally oral and now it's considered this great work, but whoa...but, you know, Aboriginal oral stories, not the same level. |
| [5,9] Amy: Do you have any specific instances or stories that you'd like to share with us? |
| [5,10] Kyla: Something that just happened a couple days ago. Actually, I'm mad at myself, too, because I didn't do anything about it. Because I was just... I was in class and we were talking about communication and different kinds of communication, you know, oral and written, and how written communication is really great, and I'm sitting there going, "yeah, written communication is really great, let's go on with the white people's perspective," and then the prof made a comment about how you know, "before they had communication, when people were dancing around in longhouses"...and I was like, okay, in my mind I was like, "there was lots of communication going on. Those dances in and in and of themselves were a form of communication." And I sort of was like, "what?" And then ten minutes later she repeated it. I didn't know what to do, because I didn't want to speak up and make big deal out of it... |
| [5,11] Amy: Why? |
| [5,12] Kyla: Because it was sort of off-topic, and I didn't want to be...people who have taken classes with me before, sometimes I get on my soapbox, as it were, they give me the "shut up, Kyla" look. I wasn't in the mood to a) defend myself, and...also, in times that it's happened before it seems like after I've been defensive or educated people about an issue...it's not even being defensive, it's telling people the truth. People treat you differently. Even your profs, they treat you differently. Because you know, you become the token Native person who gets to speak about all these Aboriginal issues and everything is always deferred to you, or you just get treated as the rabble rouser troublemaker, you know, Louis Riel, they're all going to hang you at the end, give you a "C" or something like that. |
| [5,13] Karrmen: So in that situation, with the potlatch, whatever was being said, so you were saying you reacted, you didn't say anything? What was your reaction at the time, when it was happening? |
| [5,14] Kyla: I was offended, and I was trying to make sense...because I liked the prof, too, and I was trying to make sense of why that example was being used. There had to be a reason, and I was trying to make sense of it and make it rational. The more I couldn't find one, the more angry and offended I got. And I was mad at myself because the moment had passed for me to say anything. So now I'm just mad in general. |
| [5,15] Amy: Did you internalize it, or what was your outlet? Is this the first time you've spoken to anyone about this? |
| [5,16] Kyla: No, I've talked to some of my classmates about it. The people I sit with, we do group discussions in class, I did say something to them. But they're all not the typical uneducated, racist people. They know what they're talking about. There's a...nope, can't say that. People I've taken classes with before, so they know me, too, and they said, when I was talking about it with them, they said, "yeah, we were kind of looking at you when she said that because, you know, we were wondering how you were going to react." |
| [5,17] Karrmen: So, in terms of that situation, do you think there was something that could have made it easier for you to respond to the situation? |
| [5,18] Kyla: If I didn't feel like I had to feel...every time a situation like that comes up, if I didn't feel like I was risking my grade and risking my reputation and all that stuff every time I wanted to say something about that. But obviously that's never going to happen. |
| [5,19] Amy: Do you have any other experiences in the classroom or stories that you'd like to share with us that come to mind? |
| [5,20] Kyla: Nothing that really, really stands out. I mean, there's always the typical stuff in every class that you can go back and remember, like "what's a Residential school?" you know, stuff like that. Nothing...trying to remember here... |
| [5,21] Amy: If it comes back later, we'll touch on it again. |
| [5,22] Karrmen: While I'm thinking about it, have you had any experiences that have been better or worse? Something that has worked? |
| [5,23] Kyla: Actually yeah, I had a course and we were dealing with a whole canon of literature from the beginning to the present day, and I went and talked to the prof, there was a section in our textbook on Aboriginal poetry, and I went and talked to the prof, and I'm like, "I noticed you're not teaching anything on this and I thought, it's something important, and we are taking a class on traditional Musqueam territory, and we are, you know, learning about everything else in every other culture, why can't we do this one?" And so she and I worked together to develop a short week, or two-week long curriculum on Native poetry. And that was really good, she took the suggestion and went with it, and the class really seemed to enjoy it too, we had a lot of good discussions. And it wasn't one of those situations where people were saying things that were untrue. People were actually looking at the work and analyzing the work and judging it solely on what was in front of us and not these preconceived notions. So that was good, that made me happy. |
| [5,24] Karrmen: How long have you been at UBC now? |
| [5,25] Kyla: This is my third year here. |
| [5,26] Karrmen: Okay. So in the time that you've been here, have you noticed or do you think that the classroom situation in terms of how people discuss Aboriginal content is improving or...what do you think? |
| [5,27] Kyla: Yes and no. Because as years go by in any program right, you take classes with the same people time and time again, and I think being able to do that helps, because there are people out there who hear your perspective and will listen and take that into consideration, but at the same time no, because there's always going to be that idiot at the back of the class who's going to speak up and say something racist and think they're funny or think they're smart. |
| [5,28] Amy: Whose responsibility do you think it is to change things, the situation of Aboriginal students' experiences in classrooms at the university? |
| [5,29] Kyla: I think it's the responsibility of the university and of the profs, but I feel like it's the responsibility of the Aboriginal students, because the university and profs really don't seem to be doing anything other than tokenizing. So...that's not good, as we all know. And it's really hard to get through class when you feel like, you know, when you're in a class that's sort of dealing with the topic, and people are saying things, it's hard, because you feel like you have this responsibility, but sometimes you just, anytime you have a responsibility you just don't want to do it, right? And then you feel bad for not doing it. I don't know, it's like this terrible catch-22, where you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. |
| [5,30] Karrmen: Is there anything you think instructors could do to make it, make those situations or your ability to respond to the situations easier? |
| [5,31] Kyla: It's a, I think, case-by-case basis. With the instance of my actual instructor making a comment that was completely unfounded, there's nothing really she can do to make my ability to respond to her, you know, I'm supposed to view her as a superior and respect her opinion because she's wise and has the PhD. Right? But maybe if at the beginning of every term each instructor said, "you know, we are on unceded Musqueam territory," if students were saying things, instead of just glazing over it or saying something like, "I don't know if that's appropriate" or whatever, actually giving people a chance to respond and to talk about it. Because it's not like... I've talked to my peers who aren't Aboriginal, and you know they feel the same way a lot of the time, too, they feel offended when they hear things like that because, you know, either they're other minorities so they've experienced the same thing in their own...in references to their own culture from people who don't understand, or they just sort of realize that this person is being racist and ignorant, and that makes everyone uncomfortable. |
| [5,32] And so, I don't know, there's this discussion last day in that same class that we were talking about history and again people were arguing really strong about written history being absolutely and honestly true and you know that's not the case...there are tons of things that are absolutely and honestly untrue about all sorts of written histories. Take these "massacres," for instance, that occurred during the Red River Rebellion, right? They were only massacres when White people died. You know, and nobody says that, nobody says that, and when you do say that, people laugh like, "oh they're making a joke," but you know, it's true, I'm being serious! So I don't know... |
| [5,33] Karrmen: In terms of the classroom situation as it is at the moment, what would you like to see happen, like, university wide even, or inside of the classroom? What would you like to see? |
| [5,34] Kyla: Well, it would be nice if before people took classes about, that were specifically to do with Aboriginal stuff, you know, a history course or whatever or a literature course, you know, they could have some kind of...a lot of people laugh at me for this idea, but an online quiz, you know? Where you can learn about Residential schools and you have to come to class on the first day with a certificate that you're not ignorant anymore, and you know, then you don't have to waste time talking about Residential schools and then getting the same questions over and over...like, you know, "well, so, they were shut down a long time ago." Well, no, really in the late 80s. "Oh, well, so no Aboriginal people today went to Residential..." Well, no, actually I know people who went to Residential school. "Well, I shouldn't have to pay because..." You hear that in every class, that one of those things that everyone says, "well, you know that's fine, what happened in really bad, but it's not my responsibility to pay for what my ancestors did," but you know, it's not other people's responsibility to suffer for what happened to their ancestors. |
| [5,35] Amy: Are there any other recommendations that you'd like to make to improve the situation at UBC in the classroom? |
| [5,36] Kyla: I mean, I wish, I wish there something, but there doesn't seem like there's anything specific that could be done to change the way everyone thinks. It just seems like either there's going to be some kind of mass education of all Canadians, or...a ban on talking about things you don't know about. But then that would cause me to fail most of my classes... |
| [5,37] Amy: I guess I wanted to understand what brought you or what piqued your interest in this project particularly. |
| [5,38] Kyla: Um...I don't know...I know you guys, that's one thing. It sort of seems like maybe this could go somewhere. You know, if like you said this is going to become public domain and if enough people see this and hopefully people at the university see this and hear people talking about what they want and where there are deficiencies, maybe the university will take action, and you know those old White guys with PhDs will put their thinking caps on and do something, because you know I don't have a degree, so I really shouldn't say anything... I don't know, just change this place. |
| [5,39] Amy: Has there been any positive...have there been any good things that have happened in your program or in classes at UBC that you will take with you when graduate? |
| [5,40] Kyla: Good things as far as classroom discussion, or good things as far as the actual courses? |
| [5,41] Amy: The experiences in the class, have there been any good experiences in the class that you'll take with you? |
| [5,42] Kyla: Yeah, I had this other class last year where...I was sort of put into that role of the token Aboriginal person or whatever, but people listened. And, like I always keep thinking back to that when things happen in classes now...and it had partly to do with the fact that the prof really supported an atmosphere where people would speak up and you know, just give their opinion, good or bad, and you'd have a discussion. And if people are reeling, the better, because that stuff happens. Actually I'm remembering another bad thing that happened. Good, thinking about the good makes me think about the bad. Just, atmospheres where you feel very comfortable saying things and you don't even feel like you're defending things, but you feel like you're just educating people. And where people listen and go, "oh, I didn't know that, you know now that I know that, I've changed my mind about this, you're right"...I like to be told I'm right. Do you want to hear about the other bad thing? |
| [5,43] Karrmen and Amy: Sure. |
| [5,44] Kyla: Okay. It was last year again. Sorry, everything happens last year. It was sort of a case of...I was saying something about Aboriginal history and theoretical stuff, and another Aboriginal person whose full-blooded and...you know, there's always that debate on like, you know, you're not really Native if you have White in you...that's bull as far as I'm concerned, it's about lived experiences and your feelings and stuff. He told me that I had really no right to be talking about things because I wasn't really Native and I hadn't really experienced anything because I get all this White privilege cause I look like a pretty young White girl, and you know, it's not fair for me to say anything because I haven't really experienced racism like he has. Yeah, I was offended, because for one thing M�tis people they come from a very unique culture that developed and when...I'm not going to go through M�tis history, you know. |
| [5,45] So he was sort of at once completely attacking M�tis people and completely ignoring his own, this whole fact that whether or not Canada is good at it, this is a multicultural nation, and we don't live in the 1940s anymore, there are interracial marriages, and he was being a really big racist by saying that my feelings had anything less, had any less value because I was the product of an interracial marriage, and that I look more like my father than my mother. So? It doesn't mean that I haven't heard a lot of the same things you have, and it's even worse because people are very comfortable saying those racist things in front of me because to look at me, I'm a White person. So they'll make that joke, and it'll hurt my feelings or offend me, and they won't even know that they've done that. And if I had brown skin and brown eyes they wouldn't have said that. |
| [5,46] Karrmen: So this was in the classroom? |
| [5,47] Kyla: That he said that, yes. |
| [5,48] Karrmen: So in front of the class, sort of thing? So you were offended... |
| [5,49] Kyla: Mm-hm. |
| [5,50] Karrmen: Did anything else happen? |
| [5,51] Kyla: Well, it was...I don't know. I told him off. |
| [5,52] Amy: What did the teacher do? |
| [5,53] Kyla: The prof? Well, it was before our actual class had started, but everyone was there. So he just was sort of a silent observer. Like he watched and listened, and sort of laughed. Not at what the other person had said, but just laughed at this argument that was taking place, because it had a lot to do with some of our readings, but...yeah. Also it was the two outspoken, crazy people in the class that were arguing, so, you know it was funny. |
| [5,54] Amy: Was there any other stories or... |
| [5,55] Karrmen: Anything we forgot to ask you? |
| [5,56] Kyla: A lot of people assume one of two things about M�tis people, and it's come up in classes a lot. In a class I had last term there was, we were talking about, we were reading Halfbreed and talking about the M�tis membership cards, and people assume those are the same as status cards, and they get really mad when you tell them they're not. "You get benefits." Not really, no. "Well, why do you have it?" Because. I'm allowed to carry it. I'm going to have it because if I don't have it you're going to yell at me for not having it. |
| [5,57] Karrmen: So that happens... |
| [5,58] Kyla: A lot, in classes. People don't seem to, they can't seem to tell the difference between M�tis people and Indian people, Indian Act people. I get a lot of criticism from my peers when you know I'll say things about "those Indian Act people" and then they find out I'm a M�tis person. "It's not the same. You can't talk about that." If I were a White person who got a degree in, who had my PhD in Chinese history, does that mean I'm not allowed to talk about Chinese history? Because I know a lot about it, but because I'm not Chinese, does that make it bad to talk about that? I don't know, it's some stupid double standards. Can we get rid of that at the university? All of the double standards? |
|
Jackie Gow |
| [6,1] Amy: So, how satisfied are you with the level of discussion you typically encounter in classes that address Aboriginal issues? |
| [6,2] Jackie: The level of discussion...it really depends on certain classes. Some classes have been...the discussion I feel has been facilitated by the instructor better than others, and I think that helps with the amount of issues that get covered, and I guess just the openness of the instructor with discussions is helpful in some rather than other classes. There's...if there is no real discussion, if it's kind of just someone expressing a point individual from another person's point prior to that, then it's harder to obviously consider it discussion when it's just kind of people popping up with different comments. So I think it's really up to the instructor to help facilitate that, and I've seen successful and unsuccessful examples of that. |
| [6,3] Karrmen: You mentioned that you had some positive and negative examples of things instructors had done that you thought were either effective or not, and I was just wondering if you noticed any specifically that you... |
| [6,4] Jackie: Yeah, I wouldn't say...I think that yeah, there's certain...I guess when professors or instructors just kind of come out with a question regarding some readings whether it's on, I don't know, Bill C-31 or whatever it is, if it's just kind of too open then sometimes discussion doesn't begin and so the level of discussion or the level of participation is really low, so I don't think we really in some classes access that kind of core of the issues. But I wouldn't say that there have been instructors that have just tiptoed around tough issues or anything, I just think that there's been, I've just noticed how healthier, not necessarily healthier but stronger discussions with certain professors than with others, so I couldn't really say there's an example for that. |
| [6,5] Amy: So what do you think the most difficult aspect of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues in the class is? |
| [6,6] Jackie: I would just say what's common with other topics as well, but just getting enough information to have an opinion, an opinion that encompasses a lot of the different dynamics of the topic. And then I think just being sensitive to the people who are affected by the issues. In some of my classes there will be certain people that just kind of have...anecdotes to add, so they'll just have personal experience, well maybe they'll get very emotional, begin to cry type thing, but I don't think that had been spurred by necessarily the instructors...that wasn't the instructors intent, or anyone in the class's intent, but I think that it's just necessary to be sensitive to someone that is maybe consistently being upset by issues that are being discussed, and I think that's all healthy, but just making sure that sensitivity's there. For the most part I found that there has been...actually I can't really cite many instances in class where there's been a lack of sensitivity to those issues. |
| [6,7] Amy: Okay, do you have any experiences in the class that stick in your mind, or, it's been all... |
| [6,8] Jackie: It's been...I don' t know if this is pertinent or not, but it seems that it's out of class where those sometimes inappropriate comments or discussions take place. I don't know if you guys are covering this or not, but there have been instances where it's the side comments that happen outside of class not necessarily in class discussion but are related to the discussions that I think are more insensitive. I remember of the beginning of a class, it was the first day of class and you were kind of deciding whether, everyone in the class was registered in it, but some people obviously could drop out, and it was after the topic had been decided that it was about Aboriginal issues where someone that was in the class I was walking with them right after class, had some negative comments about Aboriginal issues and Aboriginal people, and we kind of discussed some of those things, but he didn't mention those in class discussion, he chose to refrain and say them to me outside. So I think that sometimes maybe people don't feel comfortable saying some issues because they are inappropriate or insensitive. But within the class, I haven't had negative experiences. |
| [6,9] Amy: So that student just kind of sat quietly... |
| [6,10] Jackie: Yeah. And then after that wanted to...express his opinion just to me, not to the whole class. So, I think it's an interesting dynamic what people choose to share or partake in discussion in class and then what they choose to either discuss privately or in smaller groups. |
| [6,11] Amy: Have there been any other instances outside of the class that trickle from the class to the hallway that you can think of? |
| [6,12] Jackie: None that I can think of. |
| [6,13] Amy: Why do you think those kind of discussions happen outside of the classroom as opposed to in discussions within the classroom? |
| [6,14] Jackie: Mostly just, I would say because in that particular instance it was the instructor had expressed obviously an interest in Aboriginal studies and this guy was in no way interested in it. I think it was a mistake that he ended up registered in the class. I think he just knew that his opinion maybe wouldn't be accepted or that it would be inappropriate. |
| [6,15] Amy: Can you mention the types of concerns he had with taking a class with Aboriginal content? |
| [6,16] Jackie: He just didn't think, I don't think he thought it was worthwhile or important... |
| [6,17] Karrmen: Did he make any specific comments at all? |
| [6,18] Jackie: I can't remember, it was last year, but I just remember being obviously shocked or just kind of ...write him off, like "what are you even saying?" but he was just...he thought he was above those issues, or it wasn't really important, and why would he add that to his academic career...but that was only one instance and I think that because it is a class about Aboriginal issues he thought that maybe just couldn't express the fact that he thought they were important...or unimportant. But that was outside of class. |
| [6,19] Karrmen: Well it's interesting just because there is that dynamic. Some people will say some things outside of class that you don't hear in class. Just in terms of undergrad, I haven't heard, I don't see a lot of discussion just in general, so it's interesting, that dynamic, of in class and outside of class, and that what is said in classes isn't necessarily what reflects what happens outside of class. |
| [6,20] Jackie: Right, or the way people feel. I mean, certain people speak up more in class, and obviously their words are what the whole class hears, rather than other people that don't feel comfortable around that, so I guess it depends on class size too... |
| [6,21] Karrmen: Just in terms of the kind of in-class dynamic, do you think there's something that could be done in class to set up a better discussion, some way of having better interactions around these kind of topics? |
| [6,22] Jackie: Yeah, I think, I'm not sure, you're just talking about class discussion in general, not just First Nations classes or... |
| [6,23] Karrmen: Well, around Aboriginal content, that's where we're looking specifically, but you mentioned you'd seen some good or bad examples of how discussions got handled, is there anything you saw that was particular effective or ineffective that maybe didn't work, in your experience? |
| [6,24] Jackie: We read a book by a Native American author in the States, it was my group's opportunity to present, so the fact that our group of students in front kind of led a discussion. I thought was really helpful, there was four of us in a group, and we kind of all presented different aspects of the book and it was just a certain form of discussion, so I thought that it really changed the way people spoke up about the issues rather than our professor just teaching it, or just leading the discussion. So I think that more student led discussions, that would maybe help change up even the format of the discussions, so maybe more issues would come up or arise, or be discussed that maybe the professor wouldn't think of, kind of prompting the class to do. |
| [6,25] Amy: Do you feel comfortable bringing up Aboriginal questions, questions about Aboriginal issues in class? |
| [6,26] Jackie: Yes. |
| [6,27] Amy: What do you think... |
| [6,28] Jackie: Well I guess it really depends on the class. I think it's because I've been in smaller...I think that maybe in "Political Science 101" or "Political Science of Canada", I don't know, with a class of 300 people I don't know how comfortable I'd feel bringing up issues. Maybe now I would, but as a first year student when I took the class I don't think, it wasn't covered very often that's for sure, it wasn't very visible, but I didn't know how comfortable I would feel in front of a group of people... |
| [6,29] Amy: It is just because there's a lot of people... |
| [6,30] Jackie: Yeah, and it could just be me too, but I think the fact that maybe it hadn't been touched on, that, I mean it's a good thing to bring up, but maybe its like, well the professor made that decision to have that in the course list or not, so not to say that it's not important, but maybe just because it hadn't been open to discussion before that it's hard to get in there and start discussing things. |
| [6,31] Amy: So where to do you think the responsibility lies to include Aboriginal content within disciplines across campus? |
| [6,32] Jackie: My first reaction would say that it is the instructors' job, but I think, too, that everyone has, instructors included, has blind spots to issues and...everything, and so I think that it's up to the student as well to bring in those issues if they think that it's pertinent and then, I didn't even know how that would work beyond the instructor, whether it's the department or UBC in general that encourages more discussion or openness to discussion, I don't know how that would be, that would trickle down into the professors as well if it was in a higher organization that would assist in that...it's a collective responsibility, I think. |
| [6,33] Karrmen: So how long have you been at UBC for? |
| [6,34] Jackie: Three years. |
| [6,35] Karrmen: So have you been taking a lot of courses that have a First Nations concentration? |
| [6,36] Jackie: I have this year, but prior to that not so much. I mean it was touched on in some of the classes, but not necessarily at a heightened concentration. |
| [6,37] Karrmen: So in your time here have you noticed if the level of discussion as you've experienced it, is it improved from where you sort of started out in classes in having those discussions in your time here? |
| [6,38] Jackie: I haven't really noticed a big difference. Just trying to remember...yeah, I mean because it is my first year in majority of First Nations classes that it's hard to compare, but I wouldn't say that I have noticed a difference. |
| [6,39] Karrmen: Well, do you notice variability in class-to-class, and you don't have to specify particular disciplines or faculties or programs, but is there a variability that you notice? |
| [6,40] Jackie: Yeah, I would say so, definitely. I think that in a First Nations class there's going to be a difference in discussion or there is a difference in discussion, I mean obviously we're there to discuss Aboriginal issues and others as well. But then if there's a class that is a class that is not necessarily directly...an American Literature class or something...then the amount of discussion that takes place about Aboriginal issues is not necessarily the direct focus, there are differences. And I think that within First Nations classes, we're kind of, we discuss discussing the issues too, and to be sensitive to it, whereas in some classes other classes it's not necessarily addressed, like to be sensitive to all opinions and concerns, whereas that's something that's inherent, sometimes inherent, in Aboriginal discussions in classes. |
| [6,41] Amy: So would you say that at UBC there is little discussion about Aboriginal issues unless the course specifically says it's a First Nations course... |
| [6,42] Jackie: ...I would definitely say that it's ignored. |
| [6,43] Amy: And they're set aside as to a First Nations studies... |
| [6,44] Jackie: Yeah, and I would say it's easy to go through UBC and not cover an Aboriginal issue...and I think that maybe...I would assume that that's changing, but I don't know, but I think that it's definitely something where you could go through UBC and finish your degree within Arts and not know anything about First Nations or Aboriginal issues. |
| [6,45] Amy: Do you have any recommendations on that? Do you see a problem with that, or what's your opinion on that? |
| [6,46] Jackie: I definitely see a problem with that, I just have to say that there's other issues that aren't Aboriginal that should be discussed as well that don't have that visibility, but I think that to maybe address...there's so many topics that need to be addressed, there's so many things that I think that its' overwhelming for instructors to fit that into a 13 week period that we have a semester, but I also think that maybe just a self-analyzation in each department of what are the issues that are being covered and does all of UBC agree with those issues being covered and recognizing those that maybe don't just do the mainstream, I don't really know in terms of suggestions. I know that I thought that other, that Aboriginal, certain specific studies that were within, not necessarily within Aboriginal classes were really helpful and added a different dynamic and different discussion, and something that wasn't something we'd discussed over and over again before, that was something new to a lot of students in the class. |
| [6,47] Amy: So what made you decide to take the direction of study that you have. |
| [6,48] Jackie: A few different aspects, but, um...I think that within the English class that I took where we did discuss Aboriginal issues, it kind of incorporated the issues into English, and into other areas and then also the interdisciplinary part of First Nations studies, taking a bunch of different classes and just interested in some of the issues that I think are pertinent to every UBC student, but like I said before, you can go through in UBC and get your degree and not know that these issues are important. |
| [6,49] Karrmen: Why are they important? |
| [6,50] Jackie: I think that...I think that's a good question. |
| [6,51] Amy: Why are they important to you? |
| [6,52] Jackie: I think they're important to me, in some classes we talk about being an insider and outsider in terms of Aboriginal issues, and I'm not Aboriginal, First Nations myself, but I think that it's a community effort as well, and I think that other disciplines and areas, like Women's Studies and things that are maybe smaller on our campus, I think that these issues, that Aboriginal Studies, and women's issues as well and others can assist and help in other disciplines or add something, I feel that it's really added to the way I view history and how to be an undergrad historian. And then just to build up and to assist the community... |
| [6,53] Amy: Why did you want to take part in this project? |
| [6,54] Jackie: I think for a few different reasons. One, because my first reaction was apprehension. I was like, "oh no, it's kind of scary to be on film," but also...and to discuss, and to actually have to put something out there, put your thoughts out there in a way that's not just a small discussion, but on film, or on record. And then I think too because I do think that discussions can improve, and I think that there's a big difference between a class that has a great discussion, you come out of the class saying "oh my gosh, we really touched on a lot of issues" that maybe we had read or in the news or whatever, and then where everyone in the class is working together, and maybe have different opinions but are respectful of them, and a class where you kind of come out of it and say "well, what did I do that class? I know we were supposed to discuss something, but we didn't really talk about it." |
| [6,55] I think it's important to look at the discussions that we're having if that's why we're here, if that's why we have discussion classes for discussion, I mean why not look at what they're doing and how they're making people feel. And then, also just to get the experience of doing the interview project and seeing the results, too. |
| [6,56] Karrmen: I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add that maybe we didn't ask about at all. |
| [6,57] Jackie: I have a feeling that when I walk out I'll think of something that's hopeful, but... |
| [6,58] Amy: Were you...and you don't have to answer this...but were you apprehensive doing this project because you are non-Aboriginal? |
| [6,59] Jackie: No, and I think that when you came and presented in class that it seemed that that was your first intention, to get someone that was Aboriginal, and then maybe I'm mixing that up with other people that have been looking for focus groups or things like that. But I think that that's not why I originally volunteered, but I don't think that...that's not something that really crossed my mind. But I think that that changes things, but I think that it's good to get both perspectives...not just both but so many different, I mean there's not just two sides of that, but yeah, I think that maybe it seemed like maybe your intent was maybe more for Aboriginal...or that identifies Aboriginal people... |
|
Kimberley Rawes |
| [7,1] Amy: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion you typically encounter in classes that address Aboriginal issues? |
| [7,2] Kimberley: On the whole, I can almost confidently say I'm unsatisfied. I find that if I'm going into a broad course that isn't specifically addressing one theme and maybe continues or I, sorry, incorporates a number of themes, I can expect that there's going to be some introductory material that needs to be covered for sure. But at the same time I find that there's a formula of the introductory material that gets covered in every session and that the dialogue doesn't reach any significant level. And while that sort of introductory message reaches a broad audience, for someone who's heard that six, seven, ten times over, it's not new when you can't bring new topics to the table or get any significant depth into those topics. It becomes really frustrating. |
| [7,3] Amy: Is there much variability in your experience from class to class, or subject to subject, or is this kind of what you mentioned, like a kind of common thing, or have you had classes that are better than others? |
| [7,4] Kimberley: I've had certain courses that I think are definitely better than others but I think they're geared towards a very specific in-depth critical reflection of very explicit topics, but when Aboriginality or Indigenous issues are being addressed in a blanket sort of statement, and that happens 9 times out of 10, the dialogues are totally unsatisfying. |
| [7,5] Amy: Do you have any kind of stories or experiences that stick in your mind about those kind of dialogues? |
| [7,6] Kimberley: I have one, one pretty good one I think. I was taking a class and we were discussing a lot of contributions and writings and I guess it was even fiction, too, from specific Indigenous authors and covered a great number of themes and had some really intensive class discussions that brought to light a lot of specific and beautiful and also traumatic stories that I think are symptomatic of what a settler society looks like. But the dialogue didn't really exist between the students and the professor. I felt like the messages were coming out from some of the students back to the professor and that there were certain people who were able to engage in those topics, and other people who just were so blocked on...maybe their own positionality? Or maybe a general sort of ignorance, or this was the first time they had ever addressed the history at all. But I, it was hard to sit there and listen to stories of people coming to terms with their own positionality when I spent three years of my own time, coming up four now, getting over that positionality and actually doing something about it. |
| [7,7] Amy: Yeah. |
| [7,8] Kimberley: So, I think it's one of the common problems that you start to find when you want to deal with Indigenous issues in courses. I don't even know if that's starting to answer your question or being much of a story at all anymore... |
| [7,9] Amy: Do you remember any of the comments or discussions that you're, you were kind of finding difficult to sit through? |
| [7,10] Kimberley: Oh yeah, some of my favorites included someone saying at the end of a course, you know, "I really...I wasn't really prepared for an emotional roller coaster and I wasn't okay with going through a traumatic experience," and I sat there and I wanted to get up in that room and scream and say, "well then what were you getting yourself into? What were you trying to do when that was made totally explicitly clear in the very beginning that this was going to be rough, and if you're not ready for that get out now." And hearing that felt so cathartic to me because I had been sort of experiencing a bit of a tug-of-war the whole time with this whole idea of where just I didn't feel heard. And not that I need to be heard very often... |
| [7,11] Amy: Well, it's a class dialogue. |
| [7,12] Kimberley: Absolutely, right? And when you can't be heard and then someone says, "oh well, I wasn't really prepared to listen in the first place because this was way too hard and I'm not really invested in any of this anyways, I just kind of came for these other perks, you know I really wanted to spend time with this other prof again and not deal with this material at hand." It was sort of like, "I wish you had left months ago and I have no idea where your journey is." But I'm in such a different place and I think, "You totally ruined everything," you know? |
| [7,13] Amy: Yeah. |
| [7,14] Kimberley: But you'd think over four years that I would have had some much better...oh here's a good one, too. I was participating in a sort of mock activity in a classroom and I found that the class wasn't at all devoted to First Nations issues whatsoever, but it was definitely dealing with broader things where First Nations issues should have been talked about. Here I am, here's this information, you know, did you know that in Nunavut a litre of orange juice costs 21 dollars, like the cost of living and nutrition and food security is so different and traditional economies are different, traditional diets need to be considered and all that kind of stuff, and for the activity people had to sit there and go wow that does totally impact what we're trying to think about and decide and negotiate here. So on the other side it was kind of inspirational someone who's supposed to be sort of leading the activity at the end came out and he was like, "wow! You're so passionate, you're so into this, I'm so inspired!" And I thought, "Holy shit, you know, you can you can go there with someone?" It's pretty cool. So you get a, you... |
| [7,15] get the non-invested and totally ready to commit experiences and it's hard to remember, I think, them both at the same time? Cause I'm very often, get cynical and get focused on well, this happened and someone wasn't ready to commit and blah, blah, and I wasted my time up, know like yeah, so it's hard... |
| [7,16] Amy: What have the teachers' responses been to discussions in the classroom? |
| [7,17] Kimberley: Well, this is where it gets interesting. Because I think in the first story where I found that someone wasn't the one of the students or one of my fellow colleagues wasn't really ready to invest, I found the professor was far more invested in creating a really positive critical space. And yet on the flip side, when I was dealing with this mock activity and I was trying to get the other students, getting the other students really involved and everything, the professor wasn't at all invested, wasn't his or his forte, wasn't really part of his or her research interests or background or, you know, didn't just play a significant role on the syllabus on the outline so "moving on now," you know. And I always felt like I was walking on eggshells with that because I wanted to bring it up but I didn't want to hold the class back from what the class' goal was when really these issues should be part of the class goal to begin with. |
| [7,18] Amy: Right. And whose responsibility, well, where does the level of responsibility, where should it begin? Should it being with students like yourself who bring up Aboriginal issues in a course that doesn't outline specific Aboriginal topics or... |
| [7,19] Kimberley: I don't think so. I think it has to do with the systemic organization of post-secondary education in Canada, especially given the context that UBC is in. I mean, it's an institution built on unceded territory, non-negotiated land, and it tries to pride itself...maybe it does I can't speak to that on a positive relationship with the traditional people of the area the Musqueam, I don't see that that relationship is honored and I don't see that the top-end of the structure is willing to listen to the bottom-end, even if students are trying to negotiate and rally and force that dialogue in classes, you can only push so far with the amount of power that you have. Does that kind of...? |
| [7,20] Amy: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Do you have any other memorable moments that kind of stick in your mind - how long have you been at UBC now? |
| [7,21] Kimberley: Four years. |
| [7,22] Amy: And in that time do you have any other kind of positive or negative moments that you haven't mentioned? |
| [7,23] Kimberley: I think I remember leaving some of my, say, in the first two years of my studies, sorry, I was kind of getting grounded and stuff and doing the broad-based learning, and as each week would go by in certain classes I would find that the themes that were really important to me would come out really, really easily, and it felt like there was this - and this is the cheesiest example I have ever heard of in my entire life - but it felt like there was this piece of stone and the more and more I worked at showing up and listening and learning as much as I could, the more that sculpture kind of started to come away from the stone outside and it just...Michelangelo says the stuff about, you know, I don't I don't imagine something and then put it in the stone I find what's inside the stone and bring it out? And it totally it still feels like that everyday when I'm here and I'm, you know, writing and I'm writing on the comparisons between Canadian self-government and the Treaties of Waitangi and stuff like that, I find that it just it's incredibly positive to keep honing down on what is actually there and what is actually true for me. Because its such a unique experience to be in this... |
| [7,24] department and really passionate about Indigenous issues, and Indigenous and non-Indigenous issues and how they relate when I'm on the non-Indigenous side of the coin, but at the same time that I'm there I don't choose to be there and it doesn't fit for me in lots of ways so that's also a really difficult thing to try and negotiate here, because you don't really know where you fit and you don't want to step on anyone's space you want to be mindful of where you are and respectful. |
| [7,25] Amy: So, do you think that the, UBC is providing the supportive infrastructure to get what you want out of the stone, so to speak? |
| [7,26] Kimberley: Yes and no. I think there are lots of great supports available and I think that the academic program I'm in does wonders to that, you know, there's lots of opportunities there. But I find the moment I step out of the program and I deal with other issues or other courses outside of that explicit program, it kind of feels like you're going it alone, and it's very scary. Because you don't always know what the reception is going to be like and you don't always know who's listening in the room or who's not listening. So... And it's hard to access the services and support when you can't say that you that you known I'm a person who self-identifies as Indigenous because I don't, and I'm not entitled to a lot of, yeah, I'm not entitled to a lot of that support for a number of reasons but... |
| [7,27] Amy: Do you think there's any, do you have any suggestions on how on how that support may be accessible to students who aren't Aboriginal? |
| [7,28] Kimberley: I've spent a lot of time thinking about that because I think that the support that is there for Aboriginal students isn't even that extensive to being with. But I guess maybe, maybe - and this has sort of just come to my mind - that there can be sort of a comparison between a Pride community and the PFLAG community and I think that if we had the Indigenous equivalent of the PFLAG community, that would be great! People who could say, "I'm self identifying and supporting of, and you know this is that important to me that I want to make that statement." But yeah, I think that there are certain spaces I'm not even entitled to see, right? And there's just certain things that even as committed as I am, that's traditional, that's not where I should be. So... |
| [7,29] Amy: In your in the story that you mentioned that the student had made that self-reflection at the end of the term, was there anything that other classmates or the teacher or something could have happened that could have made that situation easier for you, and in the more positive way? Like what do you think could have happened before...? |
| [7,30] Kimberley: What could have happened...it's easy to say that it would be nice that that acknowledgement had been made at the beginning, and that no one had to invest their time in that. I don't know if there's anything explicitly that a professor can do about someone's positionality and their own reflections in a class. But a small part of me really wanted to say, "ah ha! I knew it I knew it all along! I'm calling you on it!" But that's not going to do anything. I found it most useful that this person was brave enough to make that self-reflection heard to the whole class, and I think that was the most important thing that was done, and if that could be done more...because it's hard to talk about some things and certain, like it's just its hard to talk about Indigenous issues in non-Indigenous spaces, especially if you have a small number of Indigenous students. I mean people are too afraid to step on toes and be truthful about their thinking and their feeling because they know its wrong or they're afraid of it being wrong and they're not aware that it isn't a process of right or wrong, but is a process in and of itself that you have to think about and go through, right? |
| [7,31] Amy: Yeah. |
| [7,32] Kimberley: Yeah. |
| [7,33] Amy: Throughout the course were there did you get the feeling that this, like what kind of comments were you ever in group work with this... |
| [7,34] Kimberley: Oh no, I actively avoided group work because I knew it was going to turn into like a...I just didn't want to hear what she had to say, he for that matter... |
| [7,35] Amy: What were the groups usually like what kind of discussions usually came from the group work that you remember? |
| [7,36] Kimberley: I was just taking some time because I have to say, I didn't really pay attention. |
| [7,37] Amy: But I mean was there a common, what were the common kind of things that would happen out of the group work... |
| [7,38] Kimberley: "Well, how can I pass this judgment about what this writer is talking about," or "I don't know or this isn't my place," and you know, "that's the way things are supposed to be," and you know, "this is not my home so I shouldn't be going here I have all this white guilt to deal with first how did we ever do this? How did this happen why do bad things happen to good people?" Oh, it just goes on and on and on, and I finally had a moment in class where a lot of things in my personal life had compounded and there was such a visceral reading of one man's writing when it was dealing with Residential schools and I was just I was so gripped by it and so totally horrified by some of the comments in class, like, "Oh, this is such an oversimplification he has no style, this is not anything that compares to another writer, I mean this is just totally simple and base and really why are we reading this?" And I was sitting here sick to my stomach and I wanted to vomit and start crying a the same time, and then I started to have this broad scale moment of "why do bad things happen to good people," but I was so totally horrified by a history that I didn't actively participate in, but is... |
| [7,39] part of my story, and I was even more horrified at hearing this "oh, this is so simple" this discussion that I just lost it, I totally lost it in class, and I started to try and try and articulate any of this and none of this came out, and the next things I know I'm almost starting to cry and that is not okay for me in classes, I hate showing any kind of that vulnerability whatsoever. And then I find out some other responses from...that even I was too traumatized to go back for about two weeks I just couldn't show up to that class. And when I did finally talk to the professor, I got some extensive support from him or her and said, you know, "this is where I'm at" and that worked out really, really well but hearing some of the response from some of the class that I wasn't immediately connected to, it was outrageous! "Wow, this is the girl that always cries," like, it became a really personal, I'm not, emotionally not strong enough to deal with this. Sort of super-personal attack and I thought, "you don't know where I'm at, you don't know my position and how can that judgment even come into it?" So... |
| [7,40] Amy: Did you ever...what was it like when you came back to the class? |
| [7,41] Kimberley: I had to really hold back, and I also didn't feel safe in that space at all to ever say anything I wanted to again, and there was a moment where the dialogue clearly said, this is the time for everyone to get their shit out on the table, say what you need to say, and I knew everyone in that room was expecting me to rip into something and I thought, "no, screw you, and everyone that came in here because I'm not saying anything." And I thought, "you've seen too much already and you're not listening to me or not hearing me, so I'm not wasting my time and I'm not showing that vulnerability ever again." And it's funny because I walked out with a few friends and they're like, "I totally expected your tirade," and I said, "No. No, that was not the time or the place." And maybe I regret that now, and maybe if I had done that, I don't know would have happened and if the result was as positive as it could have been...so... |
| [7,42] Amy: So what might instructors do to set the stage for better interactions? |
| [7,43] Kimberley: I think that this is a super delicate issue because I think some instructors are not comfortable with classroom confrontation. And I think it's such a difficult topic to negotiate. I think the only thin you need is experience, but there definitely needs to be some kind of support for instructors. Typically because I think that the course that deal with Aboriginal issues aren't concentrated under one faculty, they're spread out across a number of different departments, and so on the one hand you might have a professor in a department who teaches a course year after year, whose been there done that has the experience to handle it, and then there might be a new professor that might be stepping in who isn't as committed to Indigenous issues or whatever, and that happens to be part of the course, but I feel like they're not prepared enough because they just don't know where to begin or how to navigate those...because they can be very heated discussions or they can be totally isolating, cold, dead experiences where no one is willing to say anything, and both are problematic because... |
| [7,44] no one is wiling to talk about what's happening, or everyone's yelling and screaming at each other and not listening...so.. |
| [7,45] Amy: Right...do you see, do you see a solution for any of this? Because I mean, new professors are going to be coming in to UBC year after year, there's sessionals, you know... I mean, what, is there any, if there is any simple solution, is there anything that university should be doing or... |
| [7,46] Kimberley: I think a workshop on conflict management in a classroom and facilitating conflictual discussions would be great. And encouraging discussion around silencing issues because there's a huge element of silencing that happens at the same time. |
| [7,47] Amy: Can you give an example of the silencing? |
| [7,48] Kimberley: When you're dealing with a class that's predominantly non-Indigenous talking about Indigenous issues, and there are Indigenous students there who have a serious, they've already spent years learning about stuff and you're doing all the introductory material, you get silenced in that you can't, it's not that you can't go as far in the discussion, but you can't speak your truths because that space isn't there in the classroom. It isn't written in the syllabus anywhere and isn't written in this introductory widespread classroom. Yeah... |
| [7,49] Amy: Do you see the, in your time at UBC, have you seen an improvement, or what's the level of discussion? |
| [7,50] Kimberley: That's an interesting question. When I first started out here I didn't know that anything was happening at all, so I think that's worth noting, too. I don't think that the discussion is improving enough that I as a student would know. And I think that if it is happening, students aren't involved in it. Or students are doing their own discussions in super informal after class, walking to Blue Chip, and I think that the university has other priorities so the university as a whole isn't engaging in these things. At least that I know of, and the moment I hear that the university is engaging in any of this I'm super skeptical right off the bat like, "oh no, there's no way this is going to be good this is going to be another system of you know tokenization or whatever, it'll be another song and dance on the university's behalf that is totally symbolic and has no impact on my daily courses or my professors ability to teach these subjects whatsoever." |
| [7,51] Amy: I guess I kind of was interested in why you decided to join us and participate in this project? |
| [7,52] Kimberley: I heard about the project through a friend. She gave me a call and said, "Have I found the venting mechanism for you!" And I said, "Sweet! Someone wants to know what makes me angry...sweet!" And I thought it would be a really constructive way of putting together all of the stuff I've spent three years you know experiencing with other students and going, "what, what, what, what?" you know... |
| [7,53] Amy: So where would you like to see this project go? |
| [7,54] Kimberley: Oh, I would like to see this go to every professor who's ever had an Indigenous student in their class or ever dealt or not dealt with a Canadian topic. That's what I'd like to see. I'd like to see this hit as many possible people, many people as possible... see, when you have bad syntax and no one addresses it at university it turns out terribly awkward, yeah. And I don't want to see this just sit in a small space and be discussed amongst just a handful of people, not that that wouldn't have a great amount of impact. I'm a big scale person I want it out there. |
| [7,55] Amy: Is there anything else you wanted to add? |
| [7,56] Kimberley: I think this has been great it's a really great initiative and a really well set-up project. |
| [7,57] Amy: Thank you. |
| [7,58] Kimberley: You're welcome. |
|
Vicki George |
| [8,1] Vicki: The experience that I found really, that had so many different dynamics happen in this particular experience. In a classroom, probably about 30 to 35 students, and the instructor at the front of the class, and had a, we were talking about First Nations stuff, so there's totally First Nations content in the course and in this particular discussion. And for some reason, this non-First Nations student stands up and has the floor for about 10 minutes; nobody really stopped him, I tried in responding to some of the stuff he was saying, I tried, but he literally had the floor just went on this racial rant for about 10 minutes in regards to First Nations people, Black people... They were assumption and stereotypes, they made no sense whatsoever. |
| [8,2] Karrmen: Do you recall...? |
| [8,3] Vicki: Yeah, I do recall. He said, "When Aboriginal people walk into a room, they are considered political. They 're just political, that's just the way it is." So that was one comment that I responded to, and I said, I said, "you know, when Aboriginal people walk into the room, they're Aboriginal people. If you choose to think of us as political, that's something different. And that's a general statement, it's an assumption, it's a stereotype. You know, I could just say, you as a White person, when you walk into the room you're political. What does that mean, exactly? Like, what are you getting at?" He couldn't answer me, and as I was responding to his rant, I didn't even get to the, him talking about Black people, I was just dealing with this comment, this one comment. There was others. So as I was listening to him and after I made my response, I had another student on the other side of me say, "Be quiet, he has a right to say what he wants." So I looked at her and I went, "Excuse me, I have a right to say something too, and it's called a response, and I was responding to his racial comments. So don't tell me to be quiet." |
| [8,4] And I just, I couldn't believe that this guy had the floor and was talking about this stuff, and I couldn't believe that a student actually told me to be quiet. She literally just wanted to silence me. And I'm like, "Okay, 2007, I feel like we should be back in the caveman days, or something, you know, like we just...bonk each other on the head." I was just, unreal, it was so surreal. You know, that outer body experience that people talk about: I'm looking down in the classroom and there's Vicki sitting there, and she's listening to this, and it was just like this play, or this movie, but this was real. This was happening at this university in this classroom to me. So, I'm trying to respond to one of his comments, because logically you respond to one racial comment at a time, if you can...so that was the first one that I addressed. And of course the girl over here is telling me to be quiet, and the teacher at that time had said, was standing up at the classroom, and you could tell that the instructor wasn't pleased at all. But yet, he was still, his mouth was still moving. And at one point the instructor did say, as she's scanning the room and looking at all of us, "Is there anybody who wants to respond to this?" She was actually, the way that it was posed was that, you know, she was just hoping and pleading that somebody respond to him. |
| [8,5] And I'm thinking, "Well, what about you? This is your classroom, what about you? What are you going to say? Why don't you respond? You have just as every right as I do." But she didn't, and she wouldn't, and when he made the last comment before I walked out, this is what he said: "Why is it that White people will look at a Black person when he or she walks in a room, why is it we all turn and look at the Black person immediately?" Again, there was no rhyme or reason about his comments. It had nothing to do with the course, even the literature that we were reading in the course, I, seriously, he just pulled these out of nowhere. It was so nonsensical. And after he made the comment about the Black people, I got up and left. That was my statement. I do not want to be a part of this, I don't want to listen to him, I don't want to be a part of his audience, and if I'm going to be the only one who's going to say something, which I was, I was the only student, then screw it, I'm out of here. So I left the classroom angry, that adrenaline rush happened the entire time that this guy was talking, and then it got even worse when this girl student was telling me to be quiet and I was just like, you know, "Okay, we may have been oppressed and silenced at some point, but you can't do that anymore, okay? |
| [8,6] People have a voice now, they're allowed to talk or respond," but for some reason because I was responding to an Aboriginal assumption and stupid comment...I was made to feel that I shouldn't have done that by that student. So that's wrong, but these are the feelings and stuff that you go through when stuff like this happens in a classroom and you could tell that the teacher's uncomfortable because she knows darn well that I am. But really not going any further than, "Does anybody else want to respond to this?" That's just not good enough. It wasn't good enough for me. So I left and one of the other students who's in a lot of my classes was quite upset too, but she didn't say anything, but she did tell me later that she emailed the instructor, and I did to, and I'll get to the email in a second. Bu I left the class and I was walking across campus, and I went to 99 Chairs because I needed to just chill out. Walk it off a bit. So I got a coffee and my fellow student and friend that is in a lot of the classes with me says, "phone me on my cell, where are you?" And I said, "I'm getting a coffee." "Well, where are you?" So I told her. She came over. "How are you?" I said, "I can't believe that just happened. I cannot believe that that student was allowed to stand up and rant like that. I can't believe that the other student told me to be quiet." |
| [8,7] And she's just like, "I know, I can't believe that that happened either. What are you going to do?" she said. I said, "I'm going to write everything down, document it, and send it to the instructor." So I did later that night, and the next day, or, yeah, the next day I had talked to her, and she said that she sent an email too, so apparently I wasn't the only one who sent an email about how upset they were about these students... So that was good. But yet I was still the only one who said something in the class. And in my email to the instructor I wrote down everything that was said with the guy standing up ranting, and also about the other student telling me to be quiet. And the response I got back was pleasant in the first paragraph. She said all the right things, but in the second part in addressing the girl that told me to be quiet, it was basically written back to me that I must have misunderstood. So that just irritated me more. "Oh, well, you read into it," and I even said in the email, the initial email that I sent her, that I had witnesses that people actually heard not only the guy standing up with his racial rants, but also the girl that tried to tell me to be quiet. There was probably three or four other students that heard her say that to me. And so it just infuriated me more because you know, "well, you must have misunderstood. Obviously you don't know what actually she said." |
| [8,8] And I don't really see a point why anybody would say that to somebody else, because why else would I say it? And I was pretty clear about what happened. And the only thing I could think of was there are probably some instructors that just don't want that to happen, or can't believe that it would happen in their classroom. So by saying that to me shows me that she doesn't want to believe. So why doesn't she want to believe it? Why? I didn't get an opportunity to ask her that, but I just basically responded and said, "Look, I know what I heard, and I know what that student said." And I said, "I'm not the only one." So there wasn't really a response back. I'm just looking at the notes down here. The anger. Well of course, the anger, I mean, it was just...I don't think I went to my next class after that, I was so upset. Actually that's right, I ran into you and we talked about it, I was so angry. And this class, I like. The instructor, I like. But I wasn't pleased with either one of them. I mean, you can like somebody and not be pleased, and I was not pleased with either one of them at that point. And so I was just angry and I think I went back home actually, I left campus, I had to get off of campus, I had to get out of here. |
| [8,9] And there was this paper that was due in that class and I seriously for one week I was so angry about what had happened in that classroom, and I was so angry about the way it was...poorly dealt with that when I wrote that paper for that class, every time I went to research or try to write a paragraph or two, I'd just be like...that day would come back, and how it just made me angry. And so I just, I couldn't even do it. I couldn't do a lot of my coursework because I was so upset. Angry and upset. And so there was a paper due for this class, and it seriously took me a week to just...I'm not going to say get over it, because you never get over this kind of stuff. It never gets easier. But I got to a place after a week where I could function properly as a student. I'm a good student, and I was not pleased about how I couldn't function for that week. I mean, I did the assignments and work, and attended classes and stuff, but I wasn't really there because of this incident. So you know, things suffered for a week. And every time I got to the paper for the particular class that this happened in, I just couldn't do it. Because it just made me angry. So I just told the instructor, I said, "look, this paper's due, I can't do it, here's why. I experienced racism in your class, I left, it wasn't really dealt with properly, I couldn't function for a week; I'm asking for an extension." |
| [8,10] And I have to say to her credit that she gave me an extension, so that was good. But getting back to the addressing it the next class, she told me in the email in the last response back to me that she would address it the next class, and that I wasn't the only one that emailed her about it. So she said that. And so you have that anticipation. And class was on a Tuesday, you know Thursday's coming, Wednesday your like, "I have to go to that class tomorrow. Great." And you now, that the other students are going to be going, "Is she going to be on an anger rampage? Is she going to be a psycho from hell? Or is she going to be crying or, what's she going to be like?" right? So I walk into class, and people they look at you. They want to look at your face. "How is she? Is she angry? Is she crying?" So you expect that people want to know, and so you're, you're not only singled out in the classroom for being First Nations and having this jerk say terrible things, but you're also on display now because you spoke up and it was about First Nations people, so I'm on display in class, I know that, because people are looking at me. Like a book on a shelf, "oh, there it is." So you have that awkwardness going in, and you know it's going to happen. And so that happened, and I'm just like, "Hi." Because what else can you say, right? |
| [8,11] But there's this quick eye contact with the instructor, doesn't really want to acknowledge or look at me, and everybody's uncomfortable in the classroom. And the instructor, her way of dealing with it is to put Decolonizing Methodologies by Linda Smith on the board and telling the class to read it. Talked about needing some sensitivity and basic understanding and knowledge of why things are the way they are, colonization, that kind of stuff, talked about that for about 10 minutes. Didn't give me an opportunity to respond to what had happened to me by both students the previous class. I didn't have, I wasn't granted the floor for 10 minutes the way this guy was. Was that fair? No, it wasn't. I didn't have an opportunity to say something. Nobody had an opportunity to say if they wanted to discuss this. Instead, after the 10 minute talk about what happened the other day was wrong, and read the book, and that's just a summation of what she said, it was an attempt but it was better than nothing, but I think it could have been more. We saw, we watched a film for the rest of the class; so, lights out, and everybody just shut up and listen. So there, that was, no opportunity at all for any kind of discussion. And I think it could have been handled better. I should have had an opportunity to say something in class. |
| [8,12] I think even in that time that it was happening she probably should have said something. Especially to the guy that was standing up saying these senseless, stupid things that had nothing to do with anything. So yeah, that...that was a weird thing. Oh and, the dynamic with the instructor and I was different after that. You know, I like her, I like her class, and I know that I'm a good student, but there's that awkwardness that happens, where you can tell that she was nervous around me, and there was that awkwardness, and you know, I felt bad. I didn't feel bad because I said something, I just felt bad about the entire unfortunate situation. And I also could see as an instructor how awkward and uncomfortable and bad she probably felt for me. And she really just didn't know how to talk to me or anything like that. So it really affected our teacher/student relationship for a couple of months. And you know, this term it's different, it seems like things are back to normal, but there was a two or three month period where it was just weird. And that's a dynamic that isn't really talked about, where a student speaks up after addressing another student's racial comment, and there's that awkward dynamic with the student and professor after that. |
| [8,13] And that really sucked because you know, I liked her, I still do, and it was just an awkwardness that I think needs to be talked about and addressed too. I think we should have been able to get past that, and you know, I would always say hi and stuff like that but there was this avoidance. We had talked about that, you and I, about avoidance...well, it's not going to go away. These kind of issues and things that happen to students, they're realities they're not going to go away. I think if there was some kind of forum where professors and teachers can learn a little bit more about this and how to deal with this kind of stuff, even if they learned from each other, including students, there's some instructors that I've mentioned that just handle this stuff beautifully in class. I think they can learn from each other about how to deal with these things. I mean, my incident isn't the only one. But I think writing the book on the board and not giving me an opportunity to speak, or giving the class the opportunity to speak about it, I don't think that was...it was, like I said, an attempt, but I don't' think it was enough. So...yeah. |
| [8,14] Vicki: And I also recognize that it's not always easy to talk about racial issues and comments and stuff when the students are right there, when you're face to face with them. A lot of people are uncomfortable with what most people would call confrontation when you're actually just addressing something. A lot of people aren't comfortable with that at all, and I think this instructor is and isn't. But I think this was a time where it was just...I mean you can look back and think, "I should have did this," or "I should have did that," but I think if you know going in that these things are going to happen, this couldn't have been the first time this happened to the instructor, then you should be prepared to either mediate with the two people, like myself and the student. As far as me having an opportunity to say something, or for the instructor to say, you know, "what exactly do you mean by that and do you realize what you're saying? Do you realize that not everybody looks when a black person walks into the room," which is what this student said. |
| [8,15] The instructor should have probably commented about, "well, no actually, Aboriginal people aren't considered political, that's not what people see when they see an Aboriginal person, is that they're political" - that's another comment he said. Aboriginal people are just political and that's just the way it is. Like I don't have a soul or a mind or anything else even just as a human. I'm political. So these were the comments I was addressing, these were the comments that were said in class. I think he should have been held more accountable to the instructor. What do you say to that? "What do you mean? Do you realize that these are assumptions, do you realize that these are stereotypes, do you realize...", something. And I can probably say for sure that if the instructor thought about what she could have said, she probably would come up with better stuff than I'm saying right now, because I will grant that the instructor is aware and stuff, but I just don't think that the instructor was comfortable with addressing it right there, and I think that should have happened. So...I forgot the question. Hopefully I answered it. |
| [8,16] Karrmen: Yeah, you're answering it, totally. Have you had any other experiences that have been notably better or worse? |
| [8,17] Vicki: Yes. Yes I had a good experience. In a class a lot of First Nations content, and we were in a discussion group, there was about six to eight of us students, and the instructor joined our group to talk about discussions, she posed the questions to us. She would take turns in every other class to go to different discussion group, but this particular one she was in ours. And it was a book we were actually commenting on and discussing. And it got to me and I was asked a particular question and also my thoughts on the book, so I did both. I had my personal opinion and I also had a reflection of...I'd done a dynamic in the book I thought was really important or whatever it was. And then the next student beside me...seemed to have been, well she was really quite upset with what I had said. She got red in the face; she - body language - crossed her arms. And so I saw the body language even before she opened her mouth, and I was just like "wow, holy smokes, what could I have said that could be so upsetting." What it was was that my opinion didn't agree with hers. That's really what it boiled down to, she didn't agree with what I said, at all. |
| [8,18] Karrmen: So what was the...what was it that you'd said? |
| [8,19] Vicki: I said that I had wished that this particular character in this book would have gone on to the reservation of his own accord, but that because he was an Indian agent, that it took away from him being helpful to the Indians. It would have been more realistic if a White man, which he was, went on to the reservation to help Aboriginal people fight colonization or make things better in that kind of aspect, rather than helping the Aboriginal people because he's an Indian agent and he's directed to be at that reservation, and he's also getting paid by the government to do that. And he was being helpful in the sense that he was giving some elders some rides to the hospital or something like that. And so a lot of the students and I guess this student that didn't like my opinion thought that I had totally overlooked his niceness. Well, if he hadn't had been an Indian agent, that wouldn't be happening. And would he have done it on his own accord if he had just lived across the reservation on the other side, would he have gone over and given the elders a ride to the hospital? I don't think so. So this is what upset her. |
| [8,20] So she really got upset and said, "Well," she goes, "so what you're saying, Vicki, is you expect him to go over to the reservation and help if he had lived like say on the other side of the tracks." And I said, "Yeah...that's an aside, a personal aside of my comments about this book, yeah, that's what I'm saying." "Well, we don't do that," is what she said. And I said, "Pardon?" And I'm looking at the instructor and the instructor's looking at me, and she knows full well I'm going to respond, and I think she wanted to see what I would say. And I said, "We do that. " And also, "You don't speak for me. When you say 'we' you're including me, so please don't speak for me." And that was it. She just got redder in the face and so forth, but the other students addressed it as well in the sense that they said, "Well, you said 'we' and I don't agree with what you said either, I agree with Vicki." So that was a positive thing because we were in a group setting and we were all given the freedom to discuss and address that. Maybe it's the smaller groups that made the difference, maybe it's because she was in such close proximity to me, maybe it was because the instructor was right there... |
| [8,21] ...so there was no mistake about what was being said or not said, I don't know, but that was a positive experience because I was allowed to address it, I wasn't shushed, I wasn't...I wasn't silenced or made to seem that I should not say anything at all or whatever, it was a total freedom. And safe. And the instructor really talked about those kind of things in the classroom leading up to, even before this happened, she addressed colonization, she addressed oppression, she addressed racism, in terms of First Nations people. She addressed comments that she didn't even like that a student might have said. Like very direct. She really left no comment that had a question mark on it, or was absolutely racist or ignorant. She was right on it. And it wasn't confrontational, it wasn't...she wouldn't single out the student. She would talk to all of us like, "Okay look, you need to look at it this way," or whatever. And she would never lose her cool, she wouldn't be upset, she would just talk, and talk it through. And say, "Look, you really need to think about this," and, "You didn't look at that," and, "We need to consider these things," and, "Why that might have happened," and, "Let's not forget that these people are oppressed and still are because the Indian Act still exists." Just really graceful, the way she dealt with any kind of issues like that. |
| [8,22] I'm not sure if she took a negotiation class or...I don't know, but that was a really positive class and experience. Every class, I just knew if something ignorant or anything like that was going to be said about First Nations people, or racist, that it was going to be addressed. And she would be able to explain it because she knew the history. She knew how I would have felt and other First Nations students in the classroom would have felt, because I wasn't the only one by any means. It was probably half and half. I walked into that classroom confident that I would never have to worry about that adrenaline rush and anger or, "Is she going to address this, or is she going to let this go?" Or not given the opportunity to have a voice or respond. So that was really a positive experience. And I told her that. And I've even emailed her that. And I've also told other professors and students about...because by far she's probably the best instructor that's ever been able to handle and deal with these kind of things. |
| [8,23] Karrmen: You've been...how long have you been at UBC? |
| [8,24] Vicki: This is my third year, third and last year. |
| [8,25] Karrmen: So, in your time here, maybe in your whole educational experience, but specifically at UBC, do you see the classroom situation improving at the moment? |
| [8,26] Vicki: I don't know how to answer that, because that instructor I know...is sometimes here and sometimes not. So that one instructor can't really...can't really teach all of these other classes, because she has her specialty and her area, so I would have to say outside of that particular instructor and class, I don't think so. Because I can walk on campus and be stopped by fellow First Nations students and even non-First Nations students that know me, that are...have experiences or comments about something that happened to them just half-hour ago, they just got out of a class and this is what happened. I hear it all the time. Students, lots of stories, lots of comments, lots of experiences, that are not positive, so do I think it's getting better? Well, I think if it was getting better I would probably be hearing these kind of comments less and less, and I'm not. If this is...this is a yes and no question, so I would have to say no. |
| [8,27] Karrmen: What do you think is the most difficult, or what are the difficult, maybe the most difficult aspects of trying to teach Aboriginal content in a classroom at UBC, or what's difficult about discussing the issues in classes? |
| [8,28] Vicki: Discussing Aboriginal issues in classes? Probably just ignorance. They don't have the basic knowledge and history...not entirely their fault, because as we know kindergarten to Grade 12, there's not a lot of Aboriginal content in the school system. So not entirely their fault. But they're exposed to some of it and I also think that it's up to non-First Nations people responsibility to follow up with that and learn the history. And so there's Aboriginal assumptions, we talked about this in another class...just Aboriginal assumptions and stereotypes...and it's hard, I think it's hard for instructors to deal with those kind of comments. From what I understand, they get those kind of comments that are even written in their papers, so the instructors read this. Just making assumptions. These are things you hear out on the street, they're really, they carry no weight, there's actually no truth, but they are being said. And so a lot of students believe that, and so when they come into a First Nations course, class, or an instructor that is knowledgeable, they really find it difficult to listen to the instructor and to the students because their minds are already made up. |
| [8,29] And so I see that the instructors get annoyed and frustrated, and how to address some of these students, but even the instructors are smart enough to realize that sometimes you just can't change people's minds, that's just the way it is. There are some people you can reach, and there are some students who are unreachable. And so I think...what was the question? |
| [8,30] Karrmen: What are the most difficult aspects of teaching Aboriginal content in classes? |
| [8,31] Vicki: Yeah, I think that's probably it. Getting past the ignorance and just the stupidity of comments...like just utter stupidity. And if you don't know, then don't just make something up. And if you don't know, then just shut up. And find somebody that does know, or go to the Internet, go to the library, and find out. But that's the problem, most people just make things up, or they just ride on the stereotype and assumptions, and it just makes things worse. |
| [8,32] Karrmen: So what would you like to see happen? |
| [8,33] Vicki: To help along that process of gapping, or bridging the gap of ignorance to basic understanding...? |
| [8,34] Karrmen: I guess improve the quality of the discussion of the content, yeah, bridge the gap, what do you think... |
| [8,35] Vicki: I think first year undergraduates should take a basic some kind of basic course that has the basics of First Nations BC history, at the very least. And get an understanding of and grasp of that before they go into these different areas that might have First Nations content in them. So that they can learn about colonization and what has happened, there's lots to absorb, there's lots to learn, but I think a basic introduction, an introductory course would really help. And I think that would not only, I think a lot of First Nations students would probably appreciate that, that some of these students that don't have that kind of knowledge or background or just aren't First Nations so how would they know, it would just bring them up to a level of understanding and be able to relate better to your fellow classmates, and I think it would also help with the instructor in talking to a class where somebody has absolutely zero knowledge of Aboriginal history and you have a First Nations student that's lived it, so...how do you bridge that gap? |
| [8,36] Well, if you had an introductory First Nations course in a university that was mandatory, and I say mandatory, because frankly I think 500 years of colonized history, I've had enough of. So I think somebody could take a 3-credit course for a semester, and I think it should be mandatory. I think that's more than fair. And I don't think that's too much to ask for at all. Did I mention that I think it should be mandatory? Just wanted to get that in there. As far as anything else...it might be helpful if we had professors and instructors be more prepared to deal with these kind of things in the classroom. Some of them, it may not have happened before. But I mean, rest assured it's going to happen, at some point in a teacher's career, you're going to have to deal with this. So a lot of the time again, they just don't have that experience or knowledge, or..."What do I do?" Well, why don't we sit down and discuss what about what we can do, with teachers and professors together. Or perhaps there's some kind of ethic or ethics class or First Nations awareness class or something like that that they could maybe attend. There's certainly plenty of elders and First Nations leaders and speakers in the Vancouver vicinity that would be more than happy to discuss these things, which I think would be really important, so why not get them in here? |
| [8,37] Why not listen to the First Nations students on campus? We're already here. Have an opportunity to hear what we have to say, not just on a video, but perhaps even a conference, bring awareness to it so that everybody's kind of prepared about how to deal with it or handle stuff like that. Because, like I said, I understand the instructors'...it's not easy standing up there in front of 35 and some classes 60 students...but if you're prepared and there's discussion, then I think that's really helpful. That's what we're taught here at university, so, why shouldn't we apply this to these kind of situations? So...those are the kind of improvements I would like to see, and that I think are mandatory. |
|
Leila Lattimer |
| [9,1] Leila: My satisfaction hasn't been extremely high and a lot of times I feel in a lot of classes the teacher and other students don't really, don't have any background information, they don't have any knowledge, and so it forms these misconceptions, and stereotypes just keep propagating through the university. Students are coming into these classes with no First Nations background at all...they're taking this as a requirement for a class and that's what I hear most of the time in a lot of the classes that I take for Aboriginal studies. These are my core classes so these are the classes that are founding my degree and people come into the class and say, "Oh yeah, you know I just thought it looked interesting," or you know, "I don't really know anything about Canadian culture so I thought I'd take it," and it's like, it's kind of more of an afterthought, and it's more of something that they just take because they need a couple of extra credits... it's not that they...it's something that they're thinking about so... |
| [9,2] Amy: Do you have any like particular stories or instances you can remember where... |
| [9,3] Leila: I think there's probably one from every class... It was, I think, that there's no Aboriginal representation in this class. Most of the class is probably from outside of Canada, not that it really matters because I find that most Canadians don't know anything about Aboriginal history - culture, anyways. It's predominantly immigrants and people on exchange and the teacher doesn't have any working knowledge or background knowledge on Aboriginal topics. There was three lectures out of the whole term that were going to be based on First Nations topics and of course the major one was Louis Riel and issues in Manitoba and whenever those topics would come up they would just kind of get brushed over, they would just lightly skim the top, the teacher doesn't know really how to get into it. None of the other students would even ask a question because most of them don't know it's an issue and...I feel the need to, not that I have to or anything like that...but I was debating putting up my hand kind of thing, because sometimes it's just not worth the effort it feels like. |
| [9,4] It's a lot of effort to have to speak up and a lot of times I don't want to speak for someone because I'm not Aboriginal so I feel that I don't have a place, but at the same time who else is going...If no one else is going to bring anything up it's like almost my...an obligation...not an obligation I don't want to look at it that way, but...a responsibility as a Canadian to know the history and so I think that I did get the class going, but if I hadn't put up my hand and sort of said, "uh, uh, uhhhh...remember," you know... |
| [9,5] Amy: Do you remember...what you guys were discussing? |
| [9,6] Leila: It was on...it's on Canadian nationalism, so we were talking about French nationalism and English Canadian nationalism. It was just talking about these two founding...how Canada is based on these two founding nationalities and a pact between two nations and it's like the idea of the First Nations as being a third... like an extra thought. It's brought up the idea of what "First Nations" is and that it was only in response to...like they need to boost up...I don't know how to say it...like they only said that they were First Nations because there was a threat. But that was exactly what French Canadian nationalism and English Canadian nationalism was that there was a threat to their identity and that's what brought it up. And like no one brought up sort of the Aboriginal issue and that kind of like... duh... What about the people that are from Canada who's land... this this is their land, this is the country that they come from and like no one really wanted to talk about it too much. And every time we brought up the conversation it would always deviate to other things and to other countries and to examples like, people from Taiwan or the Philippines they would bring in sort of their examples of Indigenous communities there. |
| [9,7] But I found that it was highly just sort of glossed over and not really talked about because nobody knew. No one had any background information. I feel like there's tons of questions you know when you do bring something up on Aboriginal issues, First Nations topics there's a lot of questions. A lot of people want to know but there's no answers. The teachers don't know what to say... other students don't even have the answers and the people in the class; I've seen lots of classes where Aboriginal students are highly singled out and they're like expected to know everything that has to do with any type of Aboriginal issue and it's like that's the only source of...that's the only source for answers. It's fairly inadequate especially like for teachers who are teaching a course in Canadian history should have a working knowledge of the history of Canadian...of Aboriginal people and First Nations issues in Canada. Like I think it's a must. |
| [9,8] Amy: So what was your teacher's reaction when Aboriginal topics were brought up? |
| [9,9] Leila: I mean he was...he was very...this particular teacher was very like open to hearing about it and to talking about it he like you know when I did bring it up I sent an email after the fact because I was frustrated because the whole class just kept dismissing, kept dismissing, didn't want to talk about it. Afterwards I was kind of frustrated and I didn't hide it very well and so I left the class kind of ticked off and wrote an email afterwards saying you know this is an important topic and needs to be talked about... And so he did send an email out to the rest of the class saying that we were going to spend the next class dedicated to the First Nations issues that was supposed to be discussed in the class. And so we did have a discussion, but again because there is no First Nations representation in the class it was like - not that it should entirely matter if there's a First Nations person in the class - but no one really had the answers to any of the questions so when we would discuss it was like all hypothetical and what people "thought" First Nations people felt or...and I just felt that it wasn't, it didn't do the topic justice because it just sort of played around the edges of the issues and no one wanted to get political and no one really wanted to like rock the boat and... |
| [9,10] ...it was like it was a gesture on his part to like want to bring these topics in but at the same time because there was no knowledge and there was no answers it couldn't really be covered. I mean there have been other classes where... it's been a Native teacher and... Like I've had a few classes where you know for most of my degree I've been in classes where there's been quite a few times a majority of First Nations students in the class. So for me I'm used to being around a lot of Native people and so I hear the topics talked about all the time and what their feeling and you'll go into a class and...the topic of ... like war, warring between tribes and stuff like that came up and so they were talking about how there was like a justification of colonialization and how that Aboriginal people did it to other Aboriginal people. So other First Nations tribe back in history they fought and killed and had slaves so you know it was kind of like an evolutionary like train of thought kind of thing...and it was just like the moment that person; who was non-Aboriginal that said this, the moment they said it the row...and it just happened that that day the Aboriginal students all sat in the same like in the same line...we all came in late...they just like the whole row the hands went up and you were just like... everybody jut kind of prepared themselves for combat. |
| [9,11] It was pretty intense it was like I hadn't seen something like that for a while like the mount of...you could just feel the air it got really tense. All of the Aboriginal students were just shifting in their seats. It was like totally separated and they just didn't, they couldn't figure out why they took offense to it. Like the person who brought up the question was just like, "Shoot what did I just do?" Like they didn't know what they did. They didn't know that they had insulted and it was just like... and it was hard because how a lot of Aboriginal students after talking about it after class they didn't know why they were so mad. Like, I mean obviously there was a direct sort of justification for colonialization, which would...but there was something more than that. I guess it was the ignorance from another student in their class and them just not getting it or knowing or taking the time to like really think critically about and then just saying what came to the top of their head. It was... it was kind of an interesting situation. I enjoy the classes that I have where there's more Aboriginal representation in the class especially Aboriginal issue classes and...I find that the ones that I don't enjoy or that I have a hard time with are the ones that are predominantly non-Aboriginal with no background. |
| [9,12] You know the teachers are non-Aboriginal and even if they try to bring in a lot of respect, and even if they are very highly like knowledgeable a lot of them just avoid confrontation. They like don't want to get into it, they don't want to like, they don't want to rock the boat they don't really want to like go too deep into the politics of what students are talking about. Like I said there's lot's of questions. Students...I mean a lot of it is because there is a lack of information out there especially in high school and elementary school. People are just not coming into school, into university with a working knowledge of a full Canadian history and that's pretty unfortunate. That affects the quality of class and that effect what you do take away from it. |
| [9,13] Amy: If I could just go back to that classroom situation that you just mentioned. What did the teacher do after the non-Aboriginal student made that comment? What was the teacher's reaction? |
| [9,14] Leila: It was a... She was a really good teacher. She handled the situation fairly well. |
| [9,15] Amy: What did she do to handle the situation? |
| [9,16] Leila: She...I'm trying to remember exactly what happened because it was pretty tense like... She let everybody speak. She let the students speak. I think before she let everybody speak she kind of like did a bit of background on that idea like on that comment and like kind of explained that like ...not by saying, "you can't say that," she explained it in a way that you know you can't use that argument. That's not something that's justifiable...that nothing justifies taking children away from their families. When you're saying just because they took slaves or had wars between tribes doesn't mean that that justifies things that... parts of colonialism. She explained it in like a historical context, which made, which made sense. Which made sense to the non-Aboriginal students which colonialism doesn't necessarily directly affect them. Then she opened up the floor for kind of like the Aboriginal students to say what they needed to say and then there was a little bit of discussion and dialogue. Which was really good and I think it helped make it not as uncomfortable for like people to come back to class kind of thing. |
| [9,17] Like usually when you have a class and there's a conflict like that you don't want to come back. You're kind of like, you're like, what's the point If I've got to deal with that and like people that are ignorant and they're not learning or anything like that, you don't want to come back to class the next day you're just like, or the next time class is you're just like... yeah it's just not really worth my time. |
| [9,18] Amy: Do you think that, that class in particular, that the students Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal were satisfied with the way that class kind of panned out at the end? Like did discussions flow outside of the class? Do you remember any of the discussions that happened? |
| [9,19] Leila: Yeah they definitely flowed outside. Because like...and it's all about like different perceptions and how different people react to it. I was talking with another student who was in the same class and was there for the same experience and it was...you notice different things. Because I was kind of like I'm on this I'm on this border where I'm non-Aboriginal so I'm part of that community but at the same time I'm very much part of the like the Native community in my program and who my friends are and where I spend my time. So I get to hear like both sides but at the same time I didn't get to hear either side almost because I'm part of both worlds so it would be like going back and forth with this information. So when I was with some of the other students who were non-Aboriginal, I get to see sort of a different light of the situation. Most of them were just like, "Whoa they all got pretty aggressive about that," or like, "They freaked out... they got really defensive," and, "Why can't we just talk about it?" They were just kind of like...but they brushed it off...and they can. And they just sort of left the class and they left it there. They left it at class. You know they left it until the next time they came to class. |
| [9,20] They didn't really have to think about it maybe for their papers or what they were reading but they could leave it at the door. And that's what one of the Aboriginal students said. Which I didn't notice, I didn't really notice that. I didn't hear... I didn't take that into account but it's very true. Now that I think back on it, it was like, yeah, they just sort of left it and they didn't have to carry it around with them where as the Aboriginal students remember this moment. They remember that event and I don't think that they'll forget it. Like it was a shot to their, their identity. It was a shot to their history. And...I think it's important for myself to hold onto that and not to let it go. Like because it's easy it would be easy to let it go and to not...I can...I could just sort of leave it and not think about it and go into a White world. I wouldn't have to think about those things because those things aren't directly affecting me everyday... but I choose not to. And that's a privilege that I have is that I get to choose. I think that it's important that we keep learning these things. Those situations that are uncomfortable, I think that they are important even if they are uncomfortable. I think it's really important to have those situations of uncomfortable because it forces people to think about things that they don't normally think about. |
| [9,21] And I mean if it just starts with a few times in class then you know...courage for other students to speak up in their other classes where there are no Aboriginal representation, where no one is going to up their hand. And so if someone is going to say a comment like that, and it's just going to go, and it's going to become part of someone else's psyche and some else's thought process so that their going to perpetuate that and bring it to another class... This way you know at least someone will be like, "No, you know... someone said in this other class that...you know you can't think about it like this," and start a dialogue about it. |
| [9,22] Amy: So whose responsibility in that situation do you think it is to continue these conversations about Aboriginal issues even if it is not built into... Where do you think the responsibility lies? |
| [9,23] Leila: I mean because it's a university setting and the classroom I think ultimately the responsibility lies on the professor. You know... you have to be... you have to anticipate what students are going to...how they're going to react to the information your giving. And if you don't know all of your information or if you don't know what you're teaching than that's really difficult. One, so if your teaching Aboriginal issues you've got to expect that Aboriginal issues are going to come up and that Aboriginal people are not... a dying race they didn't disappear, they're not just placed in history there's Aboriginal people today. And you can't just be like... say whatever and not expect there to be any repercussions of what type of information you're giving. You also can't expect non-Aboriginal... or even, even Aboriginal students who grew up not knowing anything of their past or their history. You can't expect them to just have a working knowledge of what you're teaching as well because it's not taught, it's not general knowledge, it's not...there's not this information in the general public. |
| [9,24] Amy: Have there been any situations that are better or worse than the classroom situation that you just described? |
| [9,25] Leila: I think that...I mean there's a lot of good classes that I've taken as well and there's been a lot of ... Like I was saying before is that...questions come up. There's a need, there's there is a desire to know. People are asking questions. I think one of the major problems is there's not enough answers. There's not enough people who have the knowledge to answer those questions. And that's what need to be more available and accessible is knowledge and a general respect and appreciation. I thought it was a really, really great class because it brought together all different disciplines and there was a few Aboriginal people in the class, there was people from Health, First Nations Studies, there was different sciences, Arts, everything and I thought that it was really neat...plus the teachers, one of the teachers was an Indigenous teacher... It really brought discussions about traditional ecological knowledge, about ethics, about ethics, it brought elders into the program, it brought different speakers. I thought that way of bringing everything in together gave at least a starting point for some people who have never had that type of information. So I thought that it was a really...a really good experience. |
| [9,26] Amy: How long have you been at UBC? |
| [9,27] Leila: I've been here for...my degree has taken six years, but I took eight months off so...I guess five and a half...or five and a bit. |
| [9,28] Amy: And have you seen the level of discussion around Aboriginal issues improve in that time? Or not improve? |
| [9,29] Leila: Yeah, I think that the discussion has improved. I definitely feel that my knowledge and my discussions have improved from my first year and second year I didn't really know that much. I grew up near a Native community. I grew up around a lot of Native artists and I thought I knew a lot just because I knew people but I didn't know as much as I thought I knew or I just didn't know as much as I should or need. I quickly learned that you need to know your stuff. You need to know the background the history and so I know that I have developed over the time. The biggest thing that I think I have learned from is definitely not really the classes but the students, particularly Aboriginal students. Talking with them has enlightened me so much. It's given me new perspectives on things that I probably would have not thought about. You know because there are so many different experiences that Aboriginal people have had to deal with. So many different levels of discrimination of bureaucracy of all these different things. I feel really honored that a lot of them have passed on, like, stories to me in... |
| [9,30] Amy: Was this in the class that these... |
| [9,31] Leila: Some of them would happen in the class, a lot of them at the Longhouse...they would happen between classes so it really kind of depended on... I didn't start in the First Nations program until my second year, end of my second year...so I kind of got a late start and so a lot of my classes at first were like kind of ...I was first in Fine Arts so it was completely different than what I ended up in. My first few experiences with sort of First Nations issues were in Anthropology classes so that was like the founding of my knowledge and it's definitely gotten to a point where more social issues are what are important to me. I think that history is really important to learn from and stuff like that but the social issues that are happening right now and what students and what Aboriginal people are facing right now is really important so that you know for the future you know students won't be having to deal with this. So like projects like this are great. |
| [9,32] Amy: Thank you. And that segways perfectly into my next question... So I guess I want to ask...what brought you to participate in our project? What were your reasons for participating? |
| [9,33] Leila: Well, at first I was...I mean I thought that it was a great project and right now I am working on my own project for Aboriginal experience in post-secondary and... It's been a very stressful year and so anything else was just like, "No, I don't want to do anything but put my blinders on and just focus." Which didn't really I think... I mean for a while it gets you through and gets your stuff done but after listening to the stories that the students have been telling me and about the stuff that we've been listening and talking about it really showed that people need to speak out and that the best way to get this information out there is to talk about it and then create other things, forms. Because technology is so big now that you know forms of DVDs and stuff on the web are all things that are super-accessible and a lot more easily attainable for students that are or Aboriginal people that are not on the campus that are not right here. They can, it can spread out and it can go you know into the community, the city that you know that you're in. It can go even bigger into the province into the communities and it can go and it can get bigger and bigger. So it becomes very accessible and I think that that's the most important thing. |
| [9,34] So when I was thinking about it and heard people talking about how much they enjoyed or felt like they contributed to a change, you know a shift in a little mini revolution or something it's...I want to participate because I think that it's really important that...You know a lot of different people are experiencing these things and it needs to be it needs to be heard so... |
| [9,35] Amy: What would you like to see happen with this project? |
| [9,36] Leila: I would like to see... Well, I think that there's lots of things I'd like to see. I'd like to see First Nations content be taught in elementary and secondary schools so that when students come to university they have a base knowledge of Canadian you know of what has constructed Canadian society. And then you know within the university institution, teacher's need to be...you know, not only do they have to be sort of taught or taking courses in sensitivity and like cultural awareness but also in a general knowledge. I think that anybody who has, you know any teacher needs to have this knowledge and be able to deal with conflict and to be able to create a safe environment in the classroom. And I think that it's the responsibility of the university to make sure that the classrooms are safe, that people are feeling like their voices are being heard, that they're following the rules of discrimination and the...I think it's like thirteen... rules of...I'm not sure exactly what it is but...UBC has a policy and I think that it's not being addressed. I don't think that it's being enforced. There's still times when people are feeling really isolated and violated and discriminated against in class and it's not being... |
| [9,37] Most students don't want to say anything because it is like, it's hard when you're being discriminated against you get scared and you block things out and you internalize it and that's even worse. I think that the university has a responsibility to make sure that this space is safe, that teachers that they hire and professors that they hire have these skills to deal with the situations in class. And then the professor's responsibility as a professor and a teacher... for someone to ... and they're a role model as well you know in class. They're not just, you know, they're a teacher you know they sit in front of the class and they're going to have an impression on the students they teach. And then the students as well like because if they have knowledge from an earlier age then they'll be able to participate and speak up for other students. Because we're all, we're all kind of in this together and we should speak up for each other. |
|
Benita Bunjun |
| [10,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion that you typically encounter in your classes around Aboriginal issues? |
| [10,2] Benita: Well...I guess in my teaching, I've made explicit, um, I've explicitly ensured that there's Aboriginal content, Indigenous content in my curriculum. In my most recent teaching for the university there were a number of Indigenous people in the class so, they were able to really interact with the material so obviously the presence of Indigenous students in the classroom, then, has a deeper level of interaction with the material that does not just then lie on the responsibility of the instructor. And so in my most recent teachings of a good number of courses...you know, it would come up quite a bit and storytelling would come up quite a bit... So I feel good about the content I have in my courses around Indigenous issues. |
| [10,3] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [10,4] Benita: I would say the history. I think often when I'm in a classroom that predominantly has students who is not very aware of...histories that have been silenced or forgotten. Um...students who are only aware of mainstream Canadian history, kind of the grand narrative histories...I find that to be often the most difficult, so it's almost like a shock that students go into when you talk about the Indian Act, or you talk about disenfranchisement, and you know, in terms of the loss of birth rights around Indigenous women, people...students often have a really hard time. Not the Indigenous students but students who just did not know the history so, I know that I've been able to apply some strategies around how to work with them through that. Because I also don't want non-Indigenous students to feel distanced from that history. But I also want them to feel responsible to know that history, and actually today I did a lecture in a class and I told the students this may be difficult history to know about a content, but you pay tuition and it is your right to know that you are paying to know this history and if you are not knowing it in other classes you should be asking for it. |
| [10,5] Karrmen: Have there been any experiences that you've had in your classes or in your professional role that are particularly memorable? |
| [10,6] Benita: There are many. Again, in some of my most recent teaching where there were a number of Indigenous students...where, um...by this time I had had quite a number of First Nations students in the class when this course came up, a number of them took it again and by the time they knew, they were comfortable with my pedagogy and how I was teaching, so right away they signed up to be the first presenters and they decided to just take the initiative and have the autonomy to present in a very particular way, and I remember it was the first presentation group and they actually worked with two non-Indigenous students and they made...they organized the class in a circle and they actually spoke about different parts, um...the four directions and we were talking Smith's book on decolonizing methodologies and just kind of, really seeing the students who ordinarily would never have had the space to really explore and to really bring forward their knowledge system in presenting, and I think that was a really memorable and important incident where you could really see the...just, in a way, a level of thankfulness for just being able to be who they are. And to bring the content they needed to bring which they expressed to me often was very marginal or they would often just stay quiet in their classes. So I think that was the memorable time. Another memorable time is when some of the students...particularly Indigenous students, felt comfortable to tell |
| [10,7] stories of their grandmothers or grandfathers, you know...the, about nature, like certain things, and I remember one day we talked about one student, she said how when before she would go swimming in the lake her mother had taught her to ask for permission before going in the water and going in, and then, I started talking about how when I was a little girl, how my mother had taught me...you know, for example when we had our first vehicle that before we actually drive the vehicle we have to go to the four corners of the tire and pour water and ask mother earth for permission because we would be driving on her, so we were telling these stories across, not only cultures but across...geographical spaces and so I think those are, the storytelling parts are actually quite powerful in the classroom. And I wish there were more of us that used it in our teaching, because it is a point of connection to, with all the students. |
| [10,8] Karrmen: Have you ever been in a situation where that was particularly like, challenging or problematic, or had an experience that has been difficult, around discussions of Aboriginal issues? |
| [10,9] Benita: There are many of those. And I think what helps is to have skills around facilitation, like how do we kind of unpack those moments of tension that happens, those eruptions, kind of thing and there was this one particular class where...we were reading the Smith book on decolonizing methodologies and it was the third class and a non-Indigenous student, a white student came in, and she was very upset at the book. And I remember she walked and she slammed the book on the table and she said, "This is all a lie. All this did not happen. I'm a history major and this is not history," around the history of Indigenous people in terms of how...Smith talks about how research had happened in Indigenous communities and so on, and I remember that being a moment of denying, I remember the student saying, "It was not colonization, it was ethical ways of travelling through space, or travelling to countries and to land and that there's nothing bad about what happened, that the explorers did," and was really contesting the reading, and of course there were a number of First Nations people, and I think that's the other thing is, at that at that moment as a non-Indigenous Aboriginal person, I take it very seriously what my role is, when this content, so I had promised as a, I watched as the student how many times teachers just let go of these discussions and never responded responsibly. And I promised that when I would be a teacher I would respond |
| [10,10] responsibly. And so I ended up just saying, you know, "Well, does anybody else feel the same way, does anybody else to what this student has added?" And of course ten hands shot up in the air and people said, and they were predominantly white students, and they said you know... "No, this is what colonization did, it would have had the theft of land, and it took people's rights away, and it exploited this," and so on, so I think sometimes kind of creating a discussion from it was important. I was fortunate in that class another Indigenous student after, kind of the male ally spoke...the white allies spoke up, she then kind of approached that student in a really compassionate way, but I think it's about what climate you create in your classroom. If there's enough of an openness, you get through these difficult discussions. But if you are just kind of stuck in a Western canon of teaching, it doesn't work, there's no room for it. It doesn't allow for those connections through culture and race and class and sexuality and so on to happen. |
| [10,11] Karrmen: Have there been other situations that have been notably better or worse? I mean, you've spoken a bit about some better situations that you had but I was wondering if in relation to the one you were talking about, if there's been anything else that you wanted to discuss. |
| [10,12] Benita: I find teaching first year to be the hardest. I find...I come to the understanding that maybe high school curriculum needs to restructure a little. Teaching first year...popular education class and, you know...I remember my students writing in my evaluation "I thought this course was about popular education, why did we hear...why did we learn about Native people and queers?" you know...and, which are kind of, and that is only one or two students right, writing that, but again it's about, kind of what we see as knowledge and what we see as important but I remember in that class...there was a, students were really, could not, did not want to learn about, just this word "colonization" and this history, and just really...not open to it. And...for me, I...I just feel a deep sense of responsibility especially when there are First Nations peoples in the classroom. When those harsh words are being said. And I remember one student, she was a single mom, she was First Nations, and she told me about her group work. You see, group work is a tough one. Because that's where the things you're not, you don't see as teacher, often in group work, that's where some really difficult things happen. Where you don't see it. So say they have to do a project together and there are comments said that are very hurtful. So in this case, she had shared with me that it was very hurtful and that they were saying you know, racism doesn't really exist and that, denying her experience. |
| [10,13] And I remember that kind of playing out in the classroom and being a difficult time, but I also remember, and she never spoke in the class also. So I remember it was a big lecture hall and the last day of class she did her presentation on unpacking Pocahontas, the Walt Disney, and boy she just...just you know, really let the class know what she thought. And it was really important to be able to facilitate and to allow that to happen as a teacher while still ensuring, you know, particularly her safety in the classroom. So, I don't know if that kind of speaks to kind of another example but I think a lot of it is due...a teacher has to do a lot of learning, and some of her/his biggest learning comes from the relationships with the student...and of course how I come to understand Aboriginal issues and different Aboriginal communities has to do not with just being a teacher, it's about my own history within that. So, what gets invoked in the classroom for me as a teacher has to do with my history, and my lived experience in relation to Aboriginal communities. So I think that's why it is my experience...looks the way it does, for me? So as somebody as a child who interacted quite a bit with Indigenous communities in BC, my father worked for several band offices across BC, I learned a lot and understood a lot about the complexity of...how parts of the Indian Act play right into, on reserves, or in urban areas where Indigenous people are, and I remember |
| [10,14] when I was seven years old, when we immigrated to Canada, I asked my father, you know, "Who let us in the country? Did the Native people let us in the country?" or...you know, like what happened, that kind of thing. So...I think that really is the foundation of me as a teacher, and what makes me understand and teach the way I do. But I cannot say I have the same discussions with my colleagues. I don't...I feel Indigenous issues are taught kind of as a subject or reading...you know, like, I don't find that often as teachers we use our positionality to actually understand, how is that we're reflecting, we're self-reflective around...who we are, and what does it mean as like a...person who immigrated here to be teaching Indigenous content and to Indigenous students. If things had gone differently...you know...who would be my teachers? Who would have been my teachers in elementary school, high school, I remember at UBC here, when I had my first Indigenous teacher, and I was actually the only...everybody was First Nations in the class except me. And I thought for a moment, you know...this probably is the way it would have been at some point. And so I guess those are the things I think about. But I don't find my other colleagues think about those other things very much, and so, just a few good friends and colleagues who do and at least we can have those discussions. |
| [10,15] Karrmen: You spoke a little earlier about some of the techniques you use in the classroom to...that you found effective in working with these situations, can you talk a little more about those, what kind of strategies you use to, well maybe even in those difficult classroom situations you've encountered or working situations, what would you find to be effective techniques in dealing with those situations? |
| [10,16] Benita: I think different classes will require different techniques. So I would say like, a first year large class will require very different techniques than say, a smaller upper-level course. So I'm very fortunate, I've able to teach first year to fourth year and I also come from working within the women's movement within a collective structure, and we use consensus decision making, so I think all those tools have been helpful. So, often I would say in my first year courses I'm a lot more strict, and I control the space a lot more. So that I can create a more inclusive curriculum. In my upper-level classes I check in more with the student, I treat them as adults, because that's what they are. So they get to have more say. But definitely some of the strategies are like, I do a lot of vibe-watching in my class, like it's really important for me to connect with all my students so that young woman who was really angry and denied the history that was written, after that class I did connect with her and I gave her some additional readings by First Nations scholars and told her, "You know, I understand this is hard," and...by the third, fourth class she came and she said, you know, she apologized and she said, "It's just that I feel so ripped off, I'm a history major, I feel so ripped off that I never learned all this and I was really angry," and so we worked through it and I think, so the first strategy is like, to really be able to have this ability to vibe-watch. Like who's connecting in the class, |
| [10,17] who's not, who is like, just...being really, maybe they're having a really hard day or something is happening and I would always connect with them, it didn't matter who they were and say, is everything okay. Other strategies is always having kind of additional pieces of information or resources to help students through things that are particular to their kind of position within the world. Facilitation skills, I cannot stress how they are important. Ensuring that if you know, I do say in my course outline that participation is encouraged but dominance is not encouraged so, speaking a lot does not mean participation. So, I would allow for certain voices that usually would not have the space to speak, to speak more often. So I think those kind of very specific, what comes from kind of the, anti-oppression, social justice ways of working within groups have been more the strategies that have been useful, than the academic, pure...kind of, Western canon of working. Other strategies is...if there is like, creativity emerging, just to like, let the class go with it. So if there is the idea that students want to do something that's going to really benefit their knowledge...that's really going to benefit increased knowledge for them, I would give that space for it to happen. Strategies also that have worked, for example is, I try to make sure that the...that when difficult content comes up around Aboriginal issues, that it is not the Aboriginal person that has to speak to it |
| [10,18] first. So I would really encourage and I would connect with my Indigenous students and say, "something comes up? Do not feel you always have to respond and speak for all First Nations people in Canada," and so on and that there are, and I would then encourage, non-Indigenous students to speak up more around these issues. So those are kind of some of the ways that I find it's useful, but it's a fine balance because sometimes people want to speak up about their own history and their own...so allowing that to happen also, and the person who's always asking, "Well, tell me about this, tell me about this," I make sure they know that there are lots of books out there and you don't always have to ask, you can go find out yourself also. So... |
| [10,19] Karrmen: So what do you think contributes to the success of those strategies? |
| [10,20] Benita: The openness, I think for it to work is you have to have, your student needs to know that you care about them. They really need to know that you are doing this because you really feel they deserve...you know, this. Being a compassionate teacher really helps. You can't be angry teaching. You can be angry for that moment...but, to really make that shift, I think you have to have an, certainly the last chunk of teaching that I did, really taught me about compassion and um...being able to work through some of the toughest classes that I'd ever had. In, where I've had students who've never had a non-white teacher in their life. So, what I mentioned about invoking my own kind of history in relation to Indigenous issues, but also then my own racialized history as who I am, gets also, kind of interacts with all that, so I don't think we can say having, when Indigenous issues and content come up, that it just happens in this isolation. I mean it happens with all the interaction of everything going on in that classroom, everything going on in that institution, and to the point of everything going on within the nation-state, right? I feel all those things get invoked. But we often kind of just reduce it to, oh, a difficult moment in a classroom. But those difficult moments are just replication of difficult moments in the larger context. Right? So it's the larger context of being at the supermarket and something on the paper is talking about say, sex workers, um... |
| [10,21] and that they're largely Indigenous women, and then you're having this interaction with...you know, whoever is in the lineup; so, I think all of that plays into much bigger things, plays into policies, it plays into law, it plays into things that I don't think people living in Canada, that we necessary have a good understanding of what all that means. |
| [10,22] Karrmen: Are there any techniques that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [10,23] Benita: Yes. Um...some earlier ones that I tried around like, people understanding their privilege, and you know you kind of stand up in the class and then you read certain, you know, who has had this, who has done that, and then you step forward and backward? I don't know if that is the most useful thing. I find that people who hold privilege need to think about it and reflect on it in a much more private way. I think to expose how people may have been part of oppressing others in a public way, does not necessarily lead to them really rethinking it but it might actually increase more defensiveness. So I think some of those, I know some of us use the Peggy McIntosh reading around your backpack, your white privilege, I have never used it in my classroom...but I have it as a reading. And I remember one of my colleagues recently, she had it. She used it in her classroom and she read it. And she was not a white woman, and I encouraged her not to. That...first of all....you know, that it just, it is not... it is a useful tool, but again in the privacy of reflection? Yeah, I don't know how to explain it more...cause not everybody is very comfortable at really unpacking how they've contributed to hurting people. There are very few people who are able to go there. So I think there has to be caution around, you know, like, workshops, or exercises that break people into groups based on like, ethnicity, and age, and all that, I think we should really avoid these type of... |
| [10,24] because it just kind of, invokes the binary thinking again. Yeah, so I would avoid those...what other things would I avoid...well, definitely, I know you said things that I've done; but I haven't done this, but I think it should be avoided, which is every time an issue comes up around something, I remember as a South Asian, every time something came up around South Asian stuff, the teacher would always say, "Benita, do you want to speak to it." So, we should not call on the Indigenous Aboriginal student all the time to answer our questions. And just kind of like, reduce them to that moment of that only, because they are many, many things. And it's...you know, so, I'm really not comfortable with faculty and teachers who ask their Indigenous students to do that extra work that they should be doing to put in their curriculum. And I remember teaching for, not UBC but another institution, and I remember having a guest come in and a student asked her, "Well, it doesn't seem you have any Aboriginal content in your speech," and she had said...she was a faculty going to be hired actually. And she said, "Oh, that would make an interesting little project to do on the side." And the student said, "Well, in our class it's part of the curriculum." So I think often many issues, what is considered marginal issues, are dealt in a marginal way, where Indigenous scholarship and content need to be at the core of our curriculum, they shouldn't be these last |
| [10,25] little chapter, if you have time you do it, and, little chunks, they need to be integrated. So when I teach women's studies when we look at gender relations and so on, I always look at, well how do...you know, how did policies around Indigenous people actually shift what gender relations look like, you know, whether it's for two-spirited or intersex people who are Indigenous and so on, and I think they need to not be separate issues; they need to be very much integrated. |
| [10,26] Karrmen: Can you maybe talk more about why it's important to learn Indigenous and Aboriginal issues? |
| [10,27] Benita: Because you have no choice! Because you are here! You are in Canada, and...what shall I say? Shame to any instructors that doesn't. And you don't have to be Aboriginal to make sure that content is in there, we are where we are, we live with the legacy of colonialism, and we should be very thankful for...so much of the resistance and work that Indigenous people have struggled for and continued to do so...it is, it just, it has to be, it doesn't matter what discipline it is in, it is something that has to become part of our everyday curriculum, I think. I don't kind of see it any other way, but I understand what you're saying, because I know in most of our classes it does not have any. I'm very fortunate that I've had mentors and teachers and colleagues that, there's not a lot of them, but the few that have taught me that they need to be part of the curriculum. That there has to be this content in there. So I grew up under that leadership, of knowing, well there can't be, it can't be anything else. So I accept is as what needs to be, and I ensure that my first reading is always an Indigenous person, and I work really hard to go find it, and there's so much out there, so nobody can say there's not enough scholarship around Indigenous issues, and by Indigenous people. So that's the other thing is, Indigenous content, Aboriginal content, written by Indigenous people is really important also. And I try to really avoid, so one thing to avoid is, having non-Indigenous people speak |
| [10,28] around Indigenous content? I think we only do that if we have to, and there was not enough scholarship written by Indigenous people, but there are. All over the world. And the other important reason why that content needs to be there is that, we owe it to our students. And we owe it to, to bring that knowledge. And it is a very different type of knowledge, it allows us to see...like rather than seeing things this way, I feel a lot of the Indigenous readings and content makes us see things this way. And...I think that means a lot less people are left out when we're seeing things this way, we're really denying ourselves all that other knowledge and information that we need to be thinking about. So yeah, that's why I think it is important. |
| [10,29] Karrmen: How long have you been teaching at UBC? |
| [10,30] Benita: So I started teaching at UBC since 2001. And then I've taught in different...university institutions. |
| [10,31] Karrmen: Okay. At UBC do you see the classroom situation improving at the moment? |
| [10,32] Benita: What do you mean the classroom situation, you mean the diversity of students, you mean the curriculum, or...? |
| [10,33] Karrmen: I think, around the discussion of Aboriginal issues in the time since you've been teaching here. |
| [10,34] Benita: I don't really know what other people are doing in the class. I only know what I'm doing. But from what I'm told from the students, I'd say no. Like unless you're taking a specific course in First Nations studies or Indigenous studies, um...I do, I feel I do need to say UBC-O. Because I feel I need to just invoke that. I feel it's like, because it's different, right. So I've taught at UBC Vancouver and I've taught at UBC-O, and...the landscape is different. The Indigenous nations are different. So...in my experience at UBC Okanagan teaching Women's Studies there...I don't think there has, rare, I think there's rarely been any Indigenous content in the classroom. Rarely. I mean, this I'm certain. Except if you take Indigenous Studies, and maybe there's those moments in Sociology, in Women's Studies, so again we're getting to now, how specific disciplines bring that content out. And then how do they bring it out, is it a special lesson on Aboriginal women? Is it a special lesson on, law class that's looking at specific things? So...I think we have a long way to go. I would like to say all my colleagues do bring forth that, that content, but I can't say they do. I don't think everybody does. So...I'm sad when I'm part of social justice groups or departments who don't even, like have a event and don't acknowledge the land we're on, right? So, it's still not happening. So, forget the content in the classroom, right, so...this is why I really wanted to do this interview, is because, |
| [10,35] I feel I need to kind of speak up about this. And I need to do it as a non-Indigenous person. For all the pieces of work we're not doing, it just means we're left with way more work to do for later or for the next generation of scholars and academics, and that's why we kind of have to...you know, pick it up a bit, and do the piece of work that we, because we do know it's the right thing to do. But why do we not do it? Is it, is there fear that, oh, that's going to be too controversial, like, I think that would be a really interesting question, is to say, well, do you think it's important to do it? Yes. But why do we think we, why do we not do it enough? |
| [10,36] Karrmen: What might the university do to provide a better context for discussions about Aboriginal issues, or...the kinds of issues you've identified? |
| [10,37] Benita: I mean it's so easy to say oh, there should be a...Indigenous Issues 101 course or Indigenous 101 course, but, I don't know. I definitely think there are some disciplines that just really have to step it up, that means, UBC needs to look at who they're hiring. If they are hiring administrators, deans, faculty, that have that commitment and that understanding of that Indigenous content and curriculum and scholarship, it will make it through. We've seen that already, in some of the departments. And I think that's where it's going to be, because for me that's more systemic change. I think to say, oh, everybody needs to take this course, everybody needs to take that...I don't know about that. I don't know how productive it is. But I think if we have people in positions of power, sending a strong message to their faculty, "I'm expecting this from you, and if you don't know it, here's a bunch of resources and you better start to learn it," because I think it's the faculty that have to do a lot more learning than the students around this. Because they are part of generations that did not have this in their curriculum. I remember being a student and, a First Nations students asked about, "well how does residential schools play out in this family theory?" And he was told that this is not what we're looking at. This doesn't play into it. So I think this kind of dismissiveness, of where does Aboriginal content...of where it should be, or where it should be, has been used throughout |
| [10,38] history, it's been used in many, many projects, where it's like, oh that's not what we're looking at. So let's, you know. Or there's not enough of them around, so we're not going to, you know, look at it. So um...yeah. I don't remember the question, but yeah. |
| [10,39] Karrmen: The question was about, what the university can do to provide...to improve, or create a better context for these kinds of discussions. |
| [10,40] Benita: I think, so...those sites, like the First Nations house of learning and so on, I think they're really important for those, for Indigenous students to have that place, to feel welcome, especially those that live far away from home. But I think we have to ensure as an academic institution that we do not reduce everything around indigeneity to there. Or to the First Nations program. I think there needs to be a deeper level of...weaving in at all levels, that is beyond those sites that have been created, that it needs to be at multiple levels. It's like, when you look at, you know where are people with disabilities working, they're mostly within disability resource centre, well they need to be all over the place. And I think that is really important, that it needs...the integration, and the representation and people employed and so on, that First Nations people should not be predominantly only employed at the longhouse. Or as teaching First Nations content. They need to be throughout the whole institution. So, again I'm kind of going towards hiring it looks like, but...yeah, maybe that's really what, I'm saying, because I don't feel having a course is really sustainable; at any point the course can be cut, which we have seen, if you don't have anybody available to teach it, it's not there. But if we actually have it at the level of leadership throughout the institution, I think people will always fight for it, and people with some level of power will fight for it. I don't know, I'll leave it at that. |
| [10,41] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [10,42] Benita: In the world? At UBC? |
| [10,43] Karrmen: Yeah, I guess. |
| [10,44] Benita: I think...UBC really needs to deal with, besides the content and so on, is retention. Let's put recruitment aside, but retention of Indigenous students. And if students are not staying, it needs to ask itself the big question of, what are we doing wrong, that students are not staying? How can we make our campus more inclusive to an Indigenous student? How can we not always make them feel like the other, or the different one in the classrooms, because they do feel it. And statistics show that when people experience so much discrimination and exclusion in academia, they drop out of school. Not because they're not smart, but because the university has created a climate, and that's why the longhouse is so important and so on, but...do, are we always going to turn to those places to comfort the students? Why isn't the larger institution playing that role? So I would like to see that, I definitely would like to see...you know, the presence of students, here, increased, and kind of more incorporated in a way that is more ethical. And so, not just by putting the, I know at UBC Okanagan where we'll put the First Nations image of a student on a brochure, and it's to recruit people from the Okanagan nation to send their children and for the students to come, but, you know, how is the curriculum. And, you know, sessional, what should I..most of the time I've met First Nations faculty, they've been sessionals. So there needs to be more permanent tenure track |
| [10,45] positions for those, it shouldn't be fought for, it should be like the first discipline to just get what it needs. |
| [10,46] Karrmen: Was there anything I haven't asked you that you wanted to add? |
| [10,47] Benita: Well, I guess the last thing I want to add is that, recently, well, two years ago, we organized an event called "Honouring Diversity" promoting awareness and social change. And...I organized this from Women's Studies with Indigenous Studies, and....the organizer students who were involved were Indigenous students mostly from the Okanagan nation, and maybe because I was a sessional, I was a lecturer that it worked, I don't know, but all I know is that there's so much distance between faculty and their students. Maybe because I wasn't tenure track, it was easier for me, I don't know, I'm still trying to figure it out, but what I do know is that our students, our future scholars, they are already scholars, they're writing amazing pieces, and we have to have more partnership with them, I'm really scared when I see the level of separation between the student body and the faculty body. That there can be way more joint partnerships and events happening, where the power doesn't necessary look, have to look the way it does right now. I mean of course faculty will always have certain privileges and power but I think that's something that concerns me and I know that I learned a lot in that time working with the students and we were able to put a really great event together. But again, and it came out of relationship building, and I know, actually I was just at Kelowna a few days ago and I was able to reconnect with those students, so I guess what for me has been |
| [10,48] important is when you do this work, that it's sustainable enough that you can go back there in two years and reconnect with the people. And I, I think that we've lost part of that in academia, maybe it's the rigorousness of research, and applying for funding, that's making us...made us lose a lot of the kind of...we forget the reasons why we may have become teachers. And the mentoring that is also part of teaching that I find is really decreasing, that we're not doing enough mentoring to the students. And there are particular students who need more mentoring, because they are very marginalized in society, and are often made to feel that, they don't belong here. I think in the grand scheme of things, how Canada comes to be as a nation? I don't think First Nations students were ever meant to go to university. I don't think there was ever meant to be...faculty, First Nations faculty, I don't think I was ever meant to teach. so I think there is this, this history that will always haunt us, about how Canada thought it was going to go, and what it is now, and it's a disjuncture in time and space. So I think, we have to work through some of that...some of that...and figure some of it out. So I think that's the last thing I want to say. |
|
William Lindsay |
| [11,1] Karrmen: So how satisfied are you with the level of discussion you typically encounter in classrooms, or in your workplace that involve Aboriginal issues? |
| [11,2] William: Well it depends on the workplace...if it's an Aboriginal workplace, like I've had the opportunity to work in, usually the discussion is quite comfortable if it's other Aboriginal people around, but, in some of the institutions I've had a chance to be in as a student and as an employee, it became very uncomfortable at times dealing with talking about Aboriginal issues, with people that I worked with or those who were actually in the classroom teaching about these issues and if they were, particularly if they were non-Aboriginal. It became quite, uh...quite testy sometimes? And um...yeah, the classroom environment sometimes wasn't very good and uh, so I've experience that myself as a student and as an employee, but I've, in my career as a teacher I've also heard from my students many times who came to me and said you wouldn't believe what happened in this class and they would tell me, you know, of an experience, or of a language that was used in the class, or what the teacher said, or the video that was used, and what no prior prep before the video was used and it was really, you know, a disturbing video with lots of racist colonial, old-fashioned language in it, and uh...yeah, so, so unfortunately the classroom environment could use a lot of work. Yeah, that's what I found. |
| [11,3] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [11,4] William: Well, um...it...it's not easy if you're a non-Aboriginal person teaching about Aboriginal issues. Especially if you have Aboriginal students, because the Aboriginal students uh...and I'll count myself in this group as well, being an Aboriginal person, we've had kind of a particular upbringing in this country, especially if we've grown up in the res, either the rural or the urban res, as well call it now, we've had our own particular upbringing that's well documented, so this person that's up here that's kind of a so-called "expert" that's teaching us about, you know, our history and our background and, you know, especially when they talk about contemporary things, they're basically teaching what they've learned from a book, or from research, they haven't experienced it. And so Aboriginal students know that when they see a non-Aboriginal person teaching them, so that's one of the difficulties that certainly arises. Um...and, you know when you're teaching about difficult subjects that can bring up a lot of emotions in students, like residential schools, or colonial things, or you know the impact of disease on First Nations communities, you know those are things that can cause the students to get upset. Especially when they're learning about it for the first time. And, you know the classroom environment can feel a little bit heated at that time when the students are learning about those things, and I know, because afterwards students have talked about these |
| [11,5] things after class, having coffee or whatever and uh...you know, so that's another big thing is how to properly discuss these kinds of, uh...sensitive topics, in a sensitive manner, and uh, so it's been a bit lacking in what I've seen and heard in my career, as a student and as a teacher as well. |
| [11,6] Karrmen: Have there been any experiences in your classes or in any work environments that have been particularly memorable? |
| [11,7] William: Um, yeah I've had a few. And usually it's because the instructors are culturally insensitive...or, ignorant, you know, to use a probably, proper term. I find in the Aboriginal community that there's a lot of deaths. The death rate is quite high. So First Nations students that I've taught through the years, and even myself, we're sometimes finding ourselves having to go to five or six funerals a year sometimes, you know, and, you know that's, that's not something that non-Aboriginal society is used to. I had somebody tell me that who worked in Aboriginal communities, who said, "Before I came to Aboriginal communities to work, he said, I would only go to one or two funerals a year," in his, in non-Aboriginal world at the time, but he said, "When I came to the Aboriginal community suddenly I was going to 8 or 10 funerals a year all of the sudden," so students have to deal with this, and sometimes...when I...one student in a class had to go to a few funerals in a row, and the instructor wasn't very understanding, and got upset about it, and remarked to me, I was a teacher at the time...that this student is making a career out of going to funerals, he said, you know, just totally insensitive, you know, so if he said an insensitive remark like that to me, I was just wondering what his attitude towards the student you know, who was going through these trials, eh. Dealing with death, you know. And, you know, I've, there are other experiences... |
| [11,8] you know, where the instructors who are sometimes, outright racist in their comments and in their attitude towards the students, you know at one place I worked, the students were, the Aboriginals: it was mostly an Aboriginal class, an Aboriginal program, but the person was non-Aboriginal teaching the course, and just her attitude was so bad towards the Aboriginal students that the Aboriginal students got a petition going trying to get this instructor, you know, basically kicked out because they didn't want this college teacher teaching them anymore, that's how bad it was. And I heard about this, just going, my goodness, you know. So it should have been a First Nations person teaching that class in the first place but because there's few First Nations teachers at the college level, and there's union rules and things like that, you know, people get to pick courses if they've been there longer and so forth, that uh, you had this, you know, racist person teaching a First Nations oriented course to First Nations students, right, so...and I've heard other examples of, you know, just the language being used in class, one student that had the chance to interview for a paper that got published about five years ago, she told me in one class the instructor kind of insensitively was using the word "squaw" again and again, you know, and the word "squaw" is...a derogatory term that's come to mean that in today's world, so when you have a non-Indigenous person |
| [11,9] using a term like that, and just flippantly using it, it was upsetting to the students, for the Aboriginal students to hear that, especially to the Aboriginal women as you can imagine, eh? And I just have one more example, this past term here, where I work now, I had a student come into my office, he wanted to talk...he was one of the few Aboriginals in the class, but they used a video about Duncan Campbell Scott and this guy was a racist man and he was the head of the Department of Indian Affairs I believe, for many decades, in the early part of the 20th century. And he was a racist man. He wanted to assimilate First Nations people, and this video that was done about his life, you know, was using very insensitive language you know, but they were using the language that was used in Scott's time, so "heathens", "savages", "squaw", you know, words like that, eh. And the teacher who had showed the video didn't prepare the students at all for what was in it. She didn't consider that there were First Nations students in the class who might be offended by the content of this video and the language that was used, so there's just a real culture of insensitivity and ignorance that uh, still exists...on college and university campuses out there among the structure, so uh...those are just some examples that I've experienced in my time. |
| [11,10] Karrmen: So, in any one of those situations, what was your response at the time? |
| [11,11] William: Well...you get upset, um...you know, and when, when you're in a teacher/instructor relationship, that the instructor has all the power, so you're almost afraid to speak out in class if you're by yourself, and even when you're with a group of other First Nations students and you're looking at each other, you know, ready, who's going to speak out right, and often times nobody does, and you know, it's a shame but when you're younger, and you're just a new student, and you're kind of intimidated by the person up front just holding all the power, so sometimes we didn't say anything, and in hindsight we'd wish that we had, eh? You know, and when I was told that there was a petition going around to get this teacher kicked out of class, I said well, I didn't say don't do it. You know, I said...you know, in a tactful way I said, go for it, if that's your way of fighting back again this, you know, I'm glad to see you do it. And when other students would come to me and tell me this is what was said or done, I'd say, "well, what you need to do is talk to the instructor. And go approach them one on one tactfully and say, you know, the video that you used or the language that you used, really was offensive to me as a First Nations person," and if you talk to the instructor that way you'll find that often times they just either didn't know, you know or just needed a bit of education about it. And so when I've told my students to do this, and they've done so, |
| [11,12] it's worked out rather well. It was a good process of education for the students to actually educate the instructor who might not have known that they were using materials or language that was, you know either inappropriate to use or there either could have been a better set up. You know, to say this before hand, "We're going to watch this particular multimedia source here, and there is some language in it that some might find offensive and here's what the language is, and I've got to apologize for it but this is how they spoke in those times so that's why we're hearing this language," something to that effect. So it's a good process of education for teachers and instructors being made aware of these things, and so the students when they've had a chance to talk to the instructors, found that it worked out rather well. And that's what I found, so. |
| [11,13] Karrmen: Have there been, um...other experiences that have been notably better or worse? |
| [11,14] William: Um...well what's, what is, what I've found is...well, I could talk to both actually. Like what is better, is that, more uh...instructors and more universities and colleges overall today are becoming aware of Aboriginal issues, First Nations issues, and when I was younger, that wasn't so. There was just...little or no acknowledgement of First Nations culture or issues or history or anything, in any of the college and university campuses that I was aware of when I was younger, back in the early '80s for example, late '70s, early '80s. But that's changed since, you know. There's so much more content that's Aboriginal, First Nations in the university and college environment. There's a few more First Nations people that was working in colleges and universities today. So that makes a big different from 25, 30 years ago when there was nobody. And...just having this content and having these people work in these institutions is a good process of education for those who are non-First Nations or non-Aboriginal. They can work in close proximity to these ones, they get educated through conversation, you know...they get educated through, you know, being aware that these courses are being offered, you know, and they take an interest in it themselves, and they may either take the course or educate themselves about some of these issues, so I would say there has been an improvement overall, over the last 25 or 30 years since I was a young man, |
| [11,15] around the business, um...but you know, there's still a lot of work to go. And uh, so that's what I find a little bit disturbing still, is that those in positions of power on university and college campuses still have that colonialist, ethnocentric, sometimes racist ideas, and background. And it comes out in what they say and what they do. And you know like, I could think of uh, quite a few examples but, you know...one that stands out is, uh...you know, somebody who came into my office and, when I was telling them about my research that I was doing and uh, part of my research is looking at the barriers that First Nations students face in the university setting and I was talking about residential schools as, the background of this and was leading up to what barriers they face in modern times, and he poo-pooed the whole idea, he just said, "You guys think about the residential schools too much," and, you know, he just went on to go on this little tantrum about how, you haven't had it any worse than anybody else in this country, you know, and here was a man who was educated, working at the post-secondary level, and he was actually the head of an Aboriginal-oriented program, and yet he was exhibiting that kind of attitude, towards me, who was a First Nations person, and you know, I tried to defend my position as much as I could, and say, well, you know, tactfully pointed out what he was saying wasn't so, but you know, |
| [11,16] he was quite insistent that his viewpoint was the right one. And so I was kind of shocked by that. And, there are also many acclaimed researchers and writers who are non-Aboriginal but they've written many books that are quite well known about First Nations issues and politics and land claims and things like that and I've gone to talks that they've given in public and, I don't know if they, maybe they didn't notice that there was First Nations people in their audience, you know, but...when they're in the course of their presentation, you know, kind of...a colonialist vocabulary came out, you know, they kind of like, had the "us and them" kind of vocabulary? Referring to himself and First Nations people, and uh...you know, that, you know...and they would say, you know, things that were upsetting. Like I remember one well-known, well-educated person who's written a well-known book about First Nations people that's been read by First Nations people and used by First Nations people and his presentation started talking about drunken Indians, and you know, that really bothered First Nations people who were sitting in the audience. And he was talking about, oh yeah, I went to this First Nations community, and he was like, "You know, they weren't all drunk!" And he had this big laugh and the audience was kind of "ha ha" but he didn't notice that there were a few First Nations people sitting in the pack eh, |
| [11,17] and that's the kind of thing that's happened more than once at these kinds of presentations. So even those who are well-educated about First Nations issues and they've written books about first nations issues, that they don't have the background that First Nations people have and they have a white background, Anglo Saxon, WASP background, or close to it, something similar. And it comes out in their vocabulary, and in their talk, and what they say. Especially when they feel safe in a WASP-ish type audience as well, so that's what I've seen. So, those are just some examples. |
| [11,18] Karrmen: Are there particular approaches or techniques that you've used that you've found effective in dealing with these situations? |
| [11,19] William: Well, I was a teacher for ten years, well going on eleven years now, I still teach a little bit, and I...I learn from these bad examples, and so when I was teaching myself in the classroom, I kind of learned what not to do? Even though I'm First Nations and many of my students were usually First Nations, I still learned what not to do, what not to say, you know...so, if you're talking about residential schools, for example, to be very, very sensitive about that, you know, because it's hard for First Nations people to hear about that topic, to learn about it. It's hard for me to teach about it, you know. So, extra sensitive, just letting your students know, "Today we're going to be talking about something that's a little bit sensitive, might be upsetting to some, but we have to go through this and let's get through it together." And you know, us together. And that's never failed me. So when we talked about residential schools to a classroom of First Nations people, we got through it together. And sometimes people were crying, eh. I remember one class, like I was crying and students were crying, and it was just a very powerful moment in the classroom teaching about residential schools, eh. So we had a break and came back and everyone was okay after that. |
| [11,20] But it was a memorable moment and we shared it, and I guess it was because I was a First Nations teacher up there and these are First Nations students and it always felt safe in how we were letting our emotions go at that time. I've learned that, uh, not to use certain language, you know, of course I wouldn't anyway, like more of the type of vocabulary I've mentioned, and myself I've learned that if you're going to use materials or multimedia sources that have any kinds of language or vocabulary in it that's could be very upsetting to the students, or any scenes that could be upsetting, to let to students know beforehand, just watch out for this. Watch out for this scene, or these scenes, or this language that's going to be used and just give it a bit of background and let the students know what's coming so that it's not a shock and they expect it, and that's never failed me either. To set up the students. So I've used the video about Campbell Scott, I forget the name of it, that I mentioned earlier, but in my class I set it up and said, "You know, this guy was racist, he used racist language, he was head of D.I.A for many years," or, you know it was called a different department in those days I believe, "So let's watch this thing and you'll see how...the racist attitude that was there in that time, and you can see the ideas that were behind the growth of the residential school system and the assimilation policy through this guy." And when I set it up that way, |
| [11,21] when we watch the video, it worked wonderfully. You know, people were angry, but they weren't angry about the language or the content, they were in the experience I mentioned earlier, but they were angry about what happened at that guy to the First Nations people because guys like this were the head of First Nations people government departments, so that's what I've learned as a teacher and I've learned to stick up and defend First Nations people and students and issues when they come up maybe as a young man you're...perhaps a little too respectful of people who are teaching you but, in my old age now, I'm not afraid to say, that's wrong what you're saying there. And here's why that's wrong, you know. And usually you can't change their mind but at least you feel good about speaking up for it and presenting the First Nation viewpoint about things, so you know. And as I've said I've told students who have come to me to talk to your teacher if you're really upset about something that was said. And when they do, usually it works out pretty good. So those are things I've learned in my teaching career and applied. |
| [11,22] Karrmen: Are there things that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [11,23] William: Um...well, I think that there's, uh...in my experience, there are certain multimedia resources that you shouldn't use no matter what. So, you know, if you're going to use certain videos and things like that, you better know what's in those videos beforehand, and decide whether or not you want to use that, because of the violence that's in it and the language, and you know...I just think, there's a movie called Once Were Warriors, it's from New Zealand, and it's a terrible show. It just reminded me of my upbringing, violence and drinking and all kinds of bad things happen at this indigenous community in New Zealand, and I grew up around that stuff, and it's just presented in such a horrible way, it just made me physically ill when I watched it by myself. And I said, I will never use that video in my class ever, because of how physically ill I felt after watching it. And, but I've heard other instructors say that they were going to use it, so they are using it in classes, where there are indigenous people and I suggested, don't do it. Don't use it. And sometimes they went ahead and did and it resulted in bad things happening. Either a class revolt, or the students were all really upset or half the class walked out, and you know, so that's one thing I've learned, just be very, |
| [11,24] very careful about the resources you're using. And, uh, just make sure that what you're going to be using isn't going to destroy, you know, what you're trying to build up in your classroom, so. That's one thing that I've learned. The other thing I've learned, I've guess is, um...we can try to educate people, but sometimes, often times they're not going to change, you know. So don't get upset by the fact they're not going to change, but instead, you know, feel good about the fact that at least you tried to educate them about these issues, and gave them something to think about, you know. So I, I've had, in some of my classes that were mostly Aboriginal, I've had the odd non-Indigenous person in some of my classrooms, taught about these issues, answered their questions and they were sometimes quite racist, really. They were only in this class because it was...the other classes were full and they had to take this particular class, or, they didn't really want to be there. But you know, afterwards at the end of the term, you know, they said, uh...and after, during the term they just said the stupidest, ignorant things, most ignorant things. These are non-indigenous students, eh. That would upset the people in the class, eh. But I would always try to respond in a nice, calm, collected way and just answer their question. And the student afterwards says, "You always handled that perfectly. You didn't get mad, or didn't get upset, |
| [11,25] you just answered in a nice way." And at the end of the term, I had a member that...the worst of the bunch came up to me and says, you know, "I still don't agree with what you're saying and what you're teaching in that class," he says, "but at least I learned something about what the other side is saying," or words to that effect eh, you know. So you can't get too upset when people, you can't change their minds, but you can rejoice in the fact that you gave them perhaps something to think about anyway. |
| [11,26] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment? |
| [11,27] William: Uh, at UBC? Um...well it's, it's been a while since I've taken any classes here, so uh...you know, I can't speak to that personally, you know? But, uh...you know...I've...and I've only been working here one year, and I've heard one really bad example from a student. Came in and said, this is what's happened in this class, you know. So I think UBC is one of the most progressive universities in Canada, if not the world when it comes to Indigenous things, issues, programs...trying to push forward an Aboriginal agenda. So UBC is, is, quite impressive in that regard. Um...I think there's a lot of work to do, still, but UBC, I like what they're doing and have been doing over the last 20 years especially, so. So have things improved at UBC? Um...on a personal level, you could say yes. But I know, having watched some of the projects that the First Nations students did in the First Nations studies program, and I was listening to some of the comments in these video projects they did, things haven't improved. You know, cause they were talking, a lot of the students that I still see around the longhouse, they were talking what the classroom climate is like out here sometimes. And you know, they were quite upset about it. And there were lots of different students speaking out, |
| [11,28] you know. So...you know, the proof's in the pudding if there's still lots of First Nations students saying that things haven't improved and obviously things have a long ways to go, yeah. |
| [11,29] Karrmen: What might the university do to provide a better context for...these kinds of discussions, about classroom discussions about Aboriginal issues or in the workplace? |
| [11,30] William: Well...I believe that there is some plans in the work to put on some workshops to educate, it's just in the planning stages now. But, uh, to put on some workshops to educate the...university community here about some of these issues that we're talking about today, and uh...you know, so I think that's a big step forward. So when that does happen, you know, those who, who show an interest in this will get educated about it, but it's my fear that, you know, they won't be compulsory, so, you know. You're going to have a lot of people who should take it that won't take it and don't think they need to take it. But that's a start anyway. I think having more and more First Nations students out here on this university and having more First Nations staff, and professors, who can educate others about these issues will help as well. You know, cause...if your class that you're teaching is mostly Aboriginal people, you know...I think as a professor you'd want to get educated in the background and some of the issues that these students are facing, right. I'd do the same if I was teaching a class and two-thirds of the class was say, Muslim for example, I'd probably want to get educated in issues of the, you know, Muslim history and religion and culture and so forth, |
| [11,31] just to get...so that, I would know, what you know...who it is that I'm teaching here and how I can work better with them to be a good teacher to them, you know. So, um...I think those couple of things will help the environment out here at UBC. And um...and racist attitudes are, have been engrained in this country for decades, and they might always sort of be here, but we live in a very multicultural society today, you know, some of the latest census figures show that, most of the new immigrants to Canada have brown skin, they're from parts of the world where they look like us, right. So Caucasian Canada is dealing with this, and I think in a good way, you know. So as time goes along, Canada is going to become more and more accepting of people who look different and have different skin colours, so that will help the university environment as well, kind of a filter of processing, you know, so I think that will help as well but that's big picture. So, it's kind of, there's things you can do at the big level but there are things you can do at the micro level as well, and universities are at least starting to do something about that, so. And I'm glad the students are starting to speak out, doing those videos in the First Nations program is a wonderful thing. Those videos have been shown in different places and it's made an impact on people that have watched them, I know. |
| [11,32] Karrmen: Um, I have sort of one last question, cause you answered a lot of the questions. What I was wondering is, what do you think that First Nations instructors bring to the classroom that's different from non-Aboriginal instructors? |
| [11,33] William: Well, everything. You know, I just...when I was in college there was no First Nations teachers at the university, there was only a couple. And um...you know, it helps, eh? Like it really does if...well, often times, eh, like I don't want to say that all First Nations people have had the same upbringing and that we're all thinking the same, and this and that, but you know, if you have an understanding First Nations teacher up there and he knows his students and he knows their background and he knows what they've gone through and what they're going through, that teacher, that instructor will go the extra mile to help out his students because he knows that he's really cheering them on, you know, and I think a First Nations teacher that's had the background that the students have had is really effective in that regard. How he feels about his students and how he wants to help them out, that's not always the case. You have some who come into the system and they end up getting changed by the system, and so, and the First Nations students kind of recognize somebody like that as well. Okay, well, they're First Nations but they're, they're not really like us. So that feeling exists as well. But that's only sometimes, that's where...it's mostly absolutely positive when you |
| [11,34] have a First Nations teacher up there and they're the one that's teaching you, they're the one that's doing research about Aboriginal issues, they're the one writing articles and books, the things that they say and research about means so much then because they come from that background, you know, it's nice to see a First Nations person doing that kind of research instead of a non-First Nations person for a change. And just, it...and having them as a role model as well, when you're a student and you see a First Nations teacher up there, an instructor at college or university, it gives you hope. Because then you think well if they did it, maybe I can do it too. You now, and I remember going to school and uh...you know, thinking, geez, you know, I'd like to teach at the college level myself when I did see a couple First Nations teachers teaching at the university level, I wasn't thinking that high, I was thinking it would be nice to teach at the college level. But just having those First Nations role models there gave me some hope. And I eventually did end up teaching at the university level, and for many years, and uh, I hope that I was a role model for others after me as well. To say, "Well, if William could become a college teacher, well maybe I can become a lawyer, or a doctor, or a social worker," and I know they have, because I've run into them years later right, so. So um....yeah. So um... I forgot what the question was now. |
| [11,35] Karrmen: Oh I think you answered it. It would have been about um...what do First Nations instructors bring to classrooms that's different. |
| [11,36] William: Oh yeah, oh sure. So just, role model...it's nice to have a First Nations person doing their research and writing about their own history and people. It's nice to have them in there because they understand...so, uh, you know. First Nations students feel safe in that class, you know. So like a First Nations teacher can say like an Indian joke, to the class, and everybody doesn't get offended by it, cause it's a First Nations teacher up there, well if it's within good taste, but you know, a non-First Nations people saying that joke like that you know, might fall flat or turn, look offensive, you know. So, that's just an example of the power of having a First Nations person up there, so. |
| [11,37] Karrmen: Was there anything you wanted to add that I haven't asked you? |
| [11,38] William: Um...no, I don't think so. I was just talking away there, so I can't think of uh...anything else right now that uh...needs to be said. But I have written about this issue before, had a paper published before, that, where I explored this issue in depth, and I'm working on a paper and a presentation I'm going to be doing in June at the...the Caucus conference in Newfoundland, I'm going to be talking about this issue again, that, classroom environment in university settings for Aboriginal students, and what UBC is actually doing about it. So I was going to mention these workshops that are at least in the planning stage right now, so, just to let the other universities and colleges that are represented cause they're going to be at this conference know what we're doing. So if I can let them know what we're doing, at here, at UBC, then maybe they might think about doing that as well. So might be a good process of education to let others know and they could start implementing these kinds of things at their own universities. So that's the plan anyway, we'll see how it goes, so. |
|
Lorraine Weir |
| [12,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion addressing Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classes, or in your workplace? |
| [12,2] Lorraine: I think there's very little discussion in the workplace. It depends what you mean by the workplace, if you're talking about the average English department, probably very little indeed. Certainly that's the case here. And I think at large in the university, discussion of the particular, um, experiences, of Aboriginal students in the classroom are few and far between. Do you want me to elaborate, or...? |
| [12,3] Karrmen: If you want, to elaborate at all. |
| [12,4] Lorraine: Let's pick it up with a subsequent question, let's get more focused. |
| [12,5] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [12,6] Lorraine: That in a mixed classroom of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal students, one has typically, such disparate sets of expectations from one group to the other, that to enable , facilitate, and encourage a conversation that spans both groups of students, and um, allows them... across the experience of a whole course, sometimes, to actually communicate with each other, is exceedingly difficult. Non-Aboriginal students seldom have the basic historical knowledge necessary even to open the door of the classroom and begin to discuss whatever the focus may be, in my case, contemporary Aboriginal writing. Without a sense of cultural, social, political complexities, students are disabled from the beginning. What a course can do to address that, while working with a specific reading list which requires such knowledge, is often very limited. That often depends on the initiative of the individual student, and sometimes that initiative is extraordinary. As for Aboriginal students, of course they are much more likely to come to the classroom with a kind of, uh, of necessary background knowledge and certainly personal knowledge and experience. |
| [12,7] They do not necessarily arrive in a literature classroom with sophisticated skills of literary interpretation. So there can be very real conflict between students who are used to working with novels, but really, have little contextual knowledge, on the one hand, and students who are not at all used to working with complex works of literature, but have a lot to say about their own experience in relation say to, a particular themes or topics of a literary text. So you get a very complexly stratified kind of discussion out of those disparities. Makes it a very interesting experience to work in such a classroom, sometimes a very difficult one for everybody. |
| [12,8] Karrmen: What do you think are the expectations that students come into those particular kinds of classes with? |
| [12,9] Lorraine: Oh once again, I think very different sets of expectations depending upon the group. So far, I've been talking about non-Aboriginal students as though they were one unified group. They aren't, of course. They reflect their many different kinds of contexts and ethnicities, personal histories, community histories, and depending upon their location, they may come with sometimes a mistaken sense of historical commonality and fellow feeling. It can be very painful to disengage, or for those students to disengage themselves from, a generalized sense of shared oppression, and to hypothesize a more, nuanced and specific understanding of say, residential schools. A topic that, an experience that, always produces...difficult, and I think still typically painful experiences for almost everybody, in a classroom where Aboriginal writing is being discussed. So...what to do about that, the more you individualize as a teacher, in terms of trying to understand the specific backgrounds of your students, the further you get towards being able to facilitate a conversation, if you're lucky, but that has its limitations too, in that you can individualize to the point where... |
| [12,10] students feel betrayed if their own unique position appears not to be given the same kind of weight as the position of others in the group. So you can easily have competitiveness, and factionalism. Which defeats your purpose of course. |
| [12,11] Karrmen: So are there any specific incidents, or experiences that you've in your classes or in your professional role that have been memorable? |
| [12,12] Lorraine: Um, most of my memorable experiences in the classroom have happened around these issues, I think. Um, I suppose the one that everybody talks about as you do these interviews is the "competing pain" scenario in a classroom, always excruciatingly difficult. Um, it can produce for students...the most profound experiences, but those are not always profoundly positive. It depends on the students location. Um, in a situation where, in response let's say to a particular novel or a particular poem, I give an Aboriginal student once to share an experience from their own specific location, a family experience, or their own personal experience, or a sense of the experience of their nation in relation to whatever the themes of the novel. Um...you can have both...a powerful situation where that student chooses on their own terms, and in response to their own, their own emotional reaction often, psychological reaction to let's say a powerful novel, that student chooses to give a gift to the class. I can't ask for that. It would be inappropriate for me to ask for that; it would be, I think disrespectful for me to ask for that. If a given student chooses to offer that to the class, |
| [12,13] the experience can only be transformative for everybody. At the same time, that experience often, is the occasion of shock for non-Aboriginal students. And as Aboriginal students, assuming there are plural Aboriginal students in the given classroom, look around and see the expressions of shock and dismay on the faces of their, of their comrades, that can produce a disturbing ripple effect as well. Um, people from each group tend not to realize um...the abyss of ignorance that they live in. And it can be shocking for Aboriginal students to realize how deeply and specifically ignorant their non-Aboriginal colleagues are. As it can be for non-Aboriginal students to realize that, the history they've been taught in the school system is largely a pack of lies and distortions, and that what they've grown up hearing, perhaps in their families and in their own social circumstances, is indeed of profound deconstruction, and uh, and revision. People's whole lives can be rocked in a moment like that. The question then becomes, what is the teacher's responsibility to each of those students afterwards. |
| [12,14] Karrmen: So when you're...when you were in one of those situations, what was your response at the time? |
| [12,15] Lorraine: Um, I remember one, one experience, um...with, with fondness and astonishment, there were two Aboriginal students in a fairly large group, perhaps six Aboriginal students in total and maybe another 30 non-Aboriginal students in the group, and they were a very talky bunch, and very energetic bunch, the whole class. They functioned well as a group, which was great. And there came a day, when about two months into that course, we were talking about residential school in connection with a particular poem that was on the reading list for the day, and one of these women, decided that she would tell us her family story, in relation to residential school. And she stood up, she sat in the back row of a classroom with fixed seats and rows, the worst possible classroom to have when teaching a course like this. Or any course. At any rate, she was in the back row, and she stood up, and said what she had to say, and then she sat down very quietly. And everyone was stunned, by the power of, and the eloquence, that she had given to us, as a gift. She was very happy at the end, |
| [12,16] she said what she had to say. And uh, I think she had been wanting to make that contribution to the class for some time, and she had found the right moment, and I think the experience for her was a kind of liberation. But after the class, I had about ten of the non-Aboriginal students clustered around me. For about an hour and a half, we barely got into the hallway outside the classroom, and it happened that this class was in Brock. The Brock building has uh, stairways that lead down into a small courtyard, opposite Buchanan Tower, where my office is. We got as far as the courtyard. It was a cold, wet, day, and we all stood outside in the courtyard and people kept wanting to talk. And we stood there, in the cold, and the rain, gathered in our coats and scarves around us. And people wanted to say, that they had never heard before, what that student had just said. They had never had, that jolt, of personal awakening before. And...they were disturbed. They were saddened. They didn't know what to do next. And I think that's a classic response, both to...a powerful statement by an Aboriginal student in the class, and to a powerful statement through the vehicle of a poem, or a novel, or a play. Non-Aboriginal students will go into a kind of shock and freeze reaction, then they come to guilt, I spend a lot of time saying guilt is not a helpful response, |
| [12,17] it silences us and paralyzes us further, we need to get beyond guilt really quickly to think about what we need to do next in terms of learning in the classroom, and in terms of our own lives. That's startling, for students. They're not used to being moved in a classroom. It always astonishes me in a literature classroom that people are surprised to feel moved. And when they feel moved by the contribution of another student, um...they're embarrassed, sometimes. Or they're angry. Or they're just upset. Or they cry, that's another very typical response. People weep. People cry. People sob. Um...I'm always startled by that. Um...but if one is going to teach in this area, and one is going to put powerful texts on the reading list, one should expect that. It's going to happen. Sometimes it happens to me too, I find myself in a classroom listening to an exchange between two students, and um, having a sense of the vast gap, the political abyss between us, and um...it's very moving. One needs to get used to working with oneself in those circumstances. As well as...learning how to be with one's students in those circumstances. |
| [12,18] Karrmen: So in the circumstances, are there ways that you've responded that you've thought about and considered, how a situation might play out differently under different circumstances? |
| [12,19] Lorraine: Sometimes, it's necessary if you think of a classroom as a kind of dramatic scenario where people participate according to their own...um...their own skills, their own implication, or their own emotional or intellectual capacity, um...I like a classroom where there's a lot of discussion, I try not to lecture for very long in a classroom where First Nations writing is what we're focusing on. Um, both in acknowledgement of my own non-Aboriginal location in the classroom and out of a desire not to, um...pontificate anybody into silence. Um...as a result, well, in part as a result, I can find myself in a situation where I don't particularly want to be the voice of authority. Um...interrupting a discussion...or inhibiting a remark that I know is going to be, or I sense is likely to be wounding; but I have to take that responsibility, it's something that I dislike doing, but I think it's an ethical responsibility that one has in any classroom, in this context, it's particularly urgent. So, difficult experiences that I wish hadn't happened, um, not anticipating where somebody was going when making a statement that proves to be hate speech. Um...not intervening before, uh, |
| [12,20] the sentence that finally splits everything wide open. Um...not catching a remark before the whole class thinks that it's funny, and at the expense of certain Aboriginal students in the class, often as a result of an incomplete understanding of the context of a particular remark, let's say, made by a character in a text, or as a result of a complex ignorance of history or even of geography that leads people to say things that are um...ignorant, and hurtful, and obtuse, and can never be taken back. Um, in such classrooms, one lives a contemporary history of Canada, and it's a, it's a big flabby generalization, but I think sadly, that's the case. And probably inevitably that's the case. The racism of this society is present in the university as in other dimensions of contemporary Canada. Um...we're called on to deal with that, I think in any classroom. In teaching First Nations writing, it's a particularly urgent responsibility. People are going to walk into, um...heartfelt and well-intentioned expressions of, uh, what is hurtful, and impossible sometimes, for Aboriginal students to hear. What happens as a result, is, I think sometimes necessary. And that is, a more profound understanding on all parts, of the vastness of this abyss. Uh...and a need to address it. |
| [12,21] Um, sometimes that can be a positive experience, one needs to keep it, to try to keep it from being a personal and individually wounding experience, I don't know that one can always either protect students from that, um...or that one should. It's a fine line. Protecting other adults from the experience they're going to have in a classroom is infantilizing. At the same time, there's the ethical imperative to inhibit hate speech. |
| [12,22] Karrmen: So by way of example, what kinds of things have been said, or situations that have played out in classrooms that...maybe illustrate the circumstances. |
| [12,23] Lorraine: Um, I guess a classic, a classic cultural misunderstanding that I hear a lot about is, why don't the Aboriginal students speak out? Um...the...choice of silence in a classroom where you're not sure what's going to happen when you speak, is often a wise one. Um...the...ethical imperative not to allow oneself to be tokenized, and victimized, um...is, to be respected. It's crucial. At the same time, this sense of, here we are. I always cringe when people say this, "here we are studying Indians. Why don't they speak?" Um...it's horrifying. What to do about it? How do you deal with silence? It's not up to me to put words on carefully chosen silence. So...I've certainly experienced courses where silence becomes a theme, it is of course a theme in the literature...and where say a classic novel like Ceremony opens into...which always moves people, and as a novel it's sufficiently complex that it's very difficult to understand on first reading and often on second or third reading too, especially if one is ignorant of history. Um...it's a novel that often produces a lot of empty talk. |
| [12,24] People talk into the void of their ignorance. And often produces also, profound essays by students who don't want to talk to class. So one solution in a situation like that, where I wish people would talk but they're not going to, and I understand why, and I probably...in what I hypothesize would be their circumstances, would make the same choice myself, is to wait for writing. Um...often people...Aboriginal students, will write, if they've decided to...to trust the recipient in some measure, will write what they would have said in the classroom and will flag it as such. I'm not necessarily free as a result of reading that writing, to then insert that content into the discussion, but I understand that the conversation is happening in a particular way. Um...sometimes I can mediate it. But you can't break through silence and that's endlessly frustrating. You can't make guilt stop, and that's endlessly frustrating. A whole lot of expression of pain by non-Aboriginal students just becomes, it's on sideshow after a while, you can't encourage it. People have every reason to feel shock and surprise and guilt, but the classroom is not the place to take up a lot of time with that. They need to do their own work on themselves. I often have to speak very harshly about that, and in the teaching evaluations I will sometimes get subjective comments back to the effect that, my words that, |
| [12,25] guilt will never be adequate and it's a dysfunctional response to start, are surprising and startling and people have never thought of if it before, they come from a world that teaches them that guilt is enough. Guilt is never an adequate response I think, for a non-Aboriginal student. So that's always a problem , it can be explosive in the classroom. Especially when people want to tell...self-serving stories proving that...they too have suffered. Often embarrassing. For me at least, I do wish people wouldn't do this, not that I have any control. |
| [12,26] Karrmen: In any of the situations, are there strategies or techniques that you tried, um...and that, or that techniques that you've tried that have been particularly effective, in any of these situations or that you've thought are effective and people should know about? |
| [12,27] Lorraine: Well at the beginning of, of any Aboriginal writing course, I always warn people they're in for a rough ride...people don't expect that at the beginning of a literature course. I do try and go over some basics about the reading list, and uh...indicate that, uh, they need to brush up on their historical knowledge, suggest texts, sometimes put texts on the reading list that will help them do that, um...the problem with those remarks of course, is that Aboriginal students are not the intended recipients and you polarize the class right away. Um...you can try to fill in background, you can try to inhibit people from expressing their deepest ignorance, by stuffing the void with facts ahead of time. The thing is, that...bigotry and well-intentioned prejudice, hate speech, um...will out, almost whatever you do. Um...people often, simply don't understand the force of what they're saying, and sometimes it's necessary for there to be the confrontational moment, where an Aboriginal student is fed up, and needs to, typically for some reason, turn around and look at the person right behind them. I'm always sort of struck by the uncanny sort of, spacial arrangement of this. They typically turn to the person right behind them and say exactly what they've wanted to say for two months, |
| [12,28] to that person. And um...then we all sit for a few minutes afterwards, and just let that be. I don't think you should inhibit that. Um...I try to arrange reading lists, actually, so that people approach what they're going to find most difficult to talk about, to re-experience...or to encounter for the first time, so that we approach it slowly. I have started courses with the most difficult text and I think it's unwise in this context, it will blow up on you right away. Um...sometimes walking slowly into a course looks like pussyfooting around the problem rather than strategizing to make an opening, if you can, that can backfire too. I don't know that there's any right way, you need to spend an awful lot of time talking to your students, you need to keep office hours, an increasingly obsolete pastime at modern universities, you need to actually sit there with your door open and listen to whatever stories people want to tell you. Um...I always use journal assignments in a course like this, for at least part of the mark, it's a way for people to, express what they don't necessarily want to express, for whatever reason, in the classroom, so that, that can help to release some pressure, um... |
| [12,29] I think you have to be willing to listen, and you have to be willing to...it sounds so sententious to say this, be willing to listen and you have to be willing to understand, that however much as a non-Aboriginal teacher, you empathize with the experiences of Aboriginal students, that they are not your experiences, that there are no parallels really. Um...and, um, that it's your job to shut up and listen, a lot of the time. I think it's really important to remember that. |
| [12,30] Karrmen: Has there been anything you've tried that you wouldn't recommend doing? |
| [12,31] Lorraine: Hmm...well, as I say, starting with a blockbuster text that blasts everybody to smithereens, it will do just that, and then you have to deal with smithereens for the rest of the term. Um...there are many things I've tried that have blown up on me and that I've continued to do because I'm not sure that that response, as necessarily as it were, is necessarily a bad thing. For instance, uh...whenever I'm teaching a first or second-year English course in a department where there's only one First Nations writing course, and it at the fourth-year level, and that of course, is a huge problem, but I always include what they benignly call, "Aboriginal content," I hate the phrase, in every course I teach. In a first-year course, that can blow up interestingly. I try to put together a multicultural, and Aboriginal syllabus, and that enables people to say, sadly, a lot of things about what they think literature should be. Shakespeare. I don't want anything contemporary, don't necessarily want expressions of their own, uh...cultural and historical position, they don't want to be seen in the classroom. In a course like that, I had Monkey Beach on the reading list, because I thought it opened well into a, understanding of a particular moment, actually, that Robinson frames for us, |
| [12,32] in the fictionalized history of her people, of her nation. And the result was, that I got from 135 students in that class, not one of them was Aboriginal, I got a whole lot of, "this isn't literature, what is this, what is this language she uses, what is all this, this airy fairy mystical stuff, is this Lord of the Rings or what?" And I guess it is sort of Lord of the Rings though, I hadn't thought of it that way, I probably need some, experience to interpret that more profoundly. Um...I didn't realize that I kind of walked into that by having my multicultural and Aboriginal reading list, it gave people a chance to say, my grandfather this, and my aunt that, and my father this, and my mother that, and then to say, well, none of this is related to this stuff, what is this. So a critical perspective on contemporary Canadian writing has to come from, a critical perspective, I think, on history. If you're not inclusive - an invidious term, a politically difficult term - if you're not inclusive, obviously you're walking into a liberal humanist understanding of settlers, and wilderness, and savages, and, a lot of invidious stuff which only promotes further hatred. If you lean in the other direction, you can easily tokenize, there's no stable place from which to do such a course. It reflects, um...the uh...impossibility of our collective and separate current historical situations. |
| [12,33] So you have no choice but to screw up in a course like that, and you do it honourably, I think. You can't expect it all to work. Problem is, if you're a young faculty member coming up for tenure or a promotion, and the teaching evaluation numbers are crucial for you, when you take a chance on a syllabus like that, and a set of reactions like that, and you say what you think in response to those reactions, however tactfully, probably going to affect the numbers on your teaching evaluations, and that's probably going to affect your success and survival in your job in a modern university. So that, that then goes to difficult situations in tenure and promotion committees, and all manner of administrative committees, where...what happened, what kinds of reprisals good teaching can produce in a multicultural Aboriginal set of contexts, needs to be understood, to be recognized, and I find there's virtually no understanding of that. One takes the chance, and fortunately as a senior faculty member with all the promotions and all of that, I'm not taking this risk, but I have certainly seen other faculty members with promotion and tenure and all of that at stake, take the risk of a politically engaged pedagogy, and a challenging reading list. And there can be paybacks for it, that needs to be institutionally addressed. |
| [12,34] Karrmen: Paybacks against, you mean against the instructors? |
| [12,35] Lorraine: Students can feel that they can't get their way, will often slap back at the instructor. And in a racially polarized situation...there may be, if you're lucky, there's an inhibition against saying some of what they may really think in the classroom, especially in a very large classroom situation like the 135 seat version of English 110, people are shy, they don't want to speak out in such a large group, maybe they save some of their comments for small discussion groups. But if they're angry that you've, as they see it, you've made them read stuff that they didn't want to read, and understand Canadian history in a more complex and difficult way, as a result of texts you put on the reading list, you may if you're lucky get a very warm and encouraging subjective comment of the sort, "I didn't know any of this before and now I do, thank you," or, "it was really difficult finding this out, especially about my own family and my own history has been concealed from me in ways I didn't realize, it was a rough ride but I'm glad in the end," but you can also get very aggressive, very negative, very angry, and sometimes very personally hurtful comments as a result of doing that. |
| [12,36] Who reads those comments, then becomes the question, in some departments, subjective comments are solely for the instructor's eyes. In most departments, the subjective comments are read when the person goes through for promotion and tenure and so on, so if you have particularly inflammatory comments, and you have say, a promotions committee that has no understanding of the complexity of the pedagogical situation in which you work, you can find yourself having to answer, in effect, for the production of racism in the country. Literature departments tend not to be politicized places, and so, I think it's no accident that this can be particularly a challenge in an English department, in my view. |
| [12,37] Karrmen: Makes me reluctant to ask this next question, but, maybe I'll put it...what to do, in the time that you've been engaged in these issues as part of your teaching, how do you see the classroom situation over that span of time? Is it improving, or, how do you see the classroom situation in terms of the level of discussion of Aboriginal issues in your experience? |
| [12,38] Lorraine: Well...English 476 has certainly changed over the last several years, and largely because of FNSP. As more and more of the Aboriginal students who take 476 are FNSP majors, more and more of those students are very highly educated in matters of history, cultural knowledge, politics, and so on, again they may not necessarily be used to working with complex literary texts, or artistic texts, but they are strong and confident and often, wonderfully articulate, and as a result of...the power of the group situation that FNSP provides in the Aboriginal students in the Faculty of Arts, they are often more than willing to take on the challenge of some of the attitudes expressed by non-Aboriginal students in the classroom, so you can very quickly get to feisty exchange...where...where people say exactly what they mean. I find this delightful...but at the same time, it can set an extremely adversarial tone from the beginning of a course, and make it very difficult for there to be conversation across the different groups represented by the student body in the course, it can certainly also produce the unfortunate phenomenon of students who go through every course together and know each other well and hang out together, sitting in a cluster together, and then there's everybody else. |
| [12,39] So when you try discussion groups, it's very difficult to motivate people to move out of their clusters, and people rightly feel resentful when you try to, to invite them or encourage them to scatter. And this opens obviously to the question of whether Aboriginal students shouldn't, indeed cluster in their own small discussion group and get on with a more sophisticated version of the work at hand, not having to bother to explain anything to anybody else, and free of that kind of tokenization. Why should I impose that on them? But at the same time, I think one of the most valuable things that can happen - and so here's the ethical dilemma, and the practical dilemma - one of the most valuable things that can happen for non-Aboriginal students in such a classroom, the fourth-year level, is that they really do have to converse with, encounter, Aboriginal students in all of their current, brilliant anger, and figure out what they're going to do about that. And I think those personal encounters, while sometimes a little bristly, um, have the potential to change the attitudes of non-Aboriginal students like nothing else that I can do in a classroom. Such tokenization, it's also...if you're setting people up to do it, edgy in terms of ethics, and uncertain, in terms of ethics, it's politically transformative. And it's something that I certainly want to encourage, |
| [12,40] I would want the only course in the English department with its vast resources, huge numbers of courses, and faculty members, to be a place where the different groups of students do converse with each other. Do encounter each other's worlds. And do have to face the challenge of reflecting on that. The problem there is of course, you can't do everything in one course. You can't even provide a reasonable overview of the history, say, of Aboriginal writing in Canada. Depends how you're going to organize your syllabus, what you can accomplish. In a three credit course, a lot and not much. There needs to be a roster of other courses. And also, of course, when you take a section of a multi-section course and focus your reading list in terms of multicultural and Aboriginal perspectives, you are...either opening doors that students are interested in seeing opened, or you are creating resentment because their colleagues in other sections of the same course are not facing the same challenges. This speaks to either a more organized and systematic program of courses in a literature department going from first-year right through fourth-year, multiple courses, enabling us to focus on a variety of different aspects of contemporary Aboriginal writing and different approaches to that huge body of work. |
| [12,41] It might take some of the heat off the particular courses and experiences and students that I'm describing. That, of course goes to the challenge of hiring, and of the general lack of awareness and understanding among many faculty members of the kind of career that many scholars in the field of First Nations and Native American writing, often bring to a department, are often going to be surprised to look at the much more varied backgrounds of scholars in the areas of Aboriginal writings, broadly conceived. They need to understand those different kinds of contributions as essential, and as valuable. The prejudice against community based work needs to shift, there needs to be a recognition, which there typically isn't I think, in literature departments, that academic work, academically valuable work, need not be esoteric, designed only for a highly specialized audience and remote from the authors and from their communities, and that's a vast learning curve. |
| [12,42] Karrmen: You kind of answered my last questions, but I'll ask them anyway just for the sake of maybe reiterating some stuff and, or reinforcing it, you talked about more of a structured kind of...more of a capacity in terms of curriculum on the university's part, that they initiate to basically increase student's capacity to engage in the issues, are there other things that the university can do to provide a context for these discussions? |
| [12,43] Lorraine: Well, in terms of Aboriginal students at the university, there's an amazing amount that the university can do and isn't doing. The tendency on this campus to assume that because the longhouse is a beautiful building, Aboriginal students are well served is preposterous. Um...Aboriginal students' experiences as I hear people tell me their stories, are jagged at best. The campus is not welcoming, either culturally or individually. The resources that are necessary to make people feel welcome academically as well as in this sort of contemporary, weird way that we seem to be adopting at UBC, where we put flags up on buildings, or signs, or advertise that there are programs and so on, it's a kind of tourist advertising, that welcomes Aboriginal students as tourists without - which of course is historically preposterous and objectionable - without actually doing anything in terms of classrooms, courses, majors programs, honours programs, scholarship opportunities, I mean all of the different levels of administration within the pedagogical function of the institution. So, at present, people may take courses that focus on First Nations /Aboriginal Studies, matters relevant and somewhat, |
| [12,44] but as soon as they venture out of that environment, which hopefully is fairly receptive and sensitive, as soon as they venture out of that environment, they're in for a very rough ride indeed. Um...as education, pre-university education changes for Aboriginal students in a place like BC, on the assumption that it is changing and that coming to this place is less of a shock in terms of understandings and of writing and reading styles and so on, perhaps things will be easier. Um...at this point, as long as, say in English departments, there's an inflexible attitude towards approaches to writing, Aboriginal students will very often find themselves compromised in courses where the material is, is not Aboriginal writing, First Nations Studies, where the instructor doesn't have some understanding of the issues involved. I hear those stories all the time. And I think one the ways in which, outside the very limited and restricted purview of FNSP or English 476 or certain specific, say Poli Sci courses or Anthropology courses, outside those specific areas, there's the vast, the vast wilderness of a lack of understanding, lack of cultural awareness, and lack of awareness of the particular force of the emotional, psychological, and social issues faced by many Aboriginal students, especially those coming from rural locations, and arriving in the small city of UBC. |
| [12,45] The failure to deal with the real issues experienced by Aboriginal students in every classroom they find themselves, in every library where they find themselves, in every situation where they're seeking intervention, whether from student services, or in terms of counseling services or in terms of the many, many functions of the university, that exist to serve students outside the specific location of the longhouse, the absence of awareness of the issues, the realities, and the very real tensions and struggles that Aboriginal students experience on this campus, urgently needs to be addressed. And not by another tourist campaign. Real money, real facilities, and a vast scale of a cultural, professional, upgrade for faculty members across this university. It's very unlikely to happen. And in that, it reflects a situation of primary and secondary schools. Tokenism emerges from the historical paradigm of the Indian Act, and of the res system, and of the residential school system, well meant tokenism still comes from those locations in the history, and often, replicates...in some ways, to a lesser extent, and some ways not, some of the negative forces of those institutions. What else is one to say? You can't be an English professor, sitting in your box, trying to change with one course... |
| [12,46] how Aboriginal writing is thought of, when, on the syllabus of most other courses in the same department, Monkey Beach is the only text recognized. And Eden Robinson, the only Aboriginal writer known. It's, it's...I think a vast abdication of political responsibility. But yet, English departments traditionally don't understand themselves as having any political responsibility at all. The social sciences probably have gone further along the line of understanding themselves in terms of paradigms of social responsibility. We're talking in the case of language departments, literature departments...of...a kind of modernization, that's not a very good word, but a kind of, of overhaul of the field that takes place now in terms of, some people working in Canadian studies, taking a radical perspective, some people doing post-colonial studies, but as the clich� goes, Aboriginal studies is not post-colonial studies, decolonization is still in effect...how does one do this within both the graduate school paradigms and the curricular paradigms of departments that are institutionally constructed in such a way as to shield their inhabitants, as it were, from the kind of pressures that we're talking about. One of the results of this sort of shielding, or obtuse turning away, |
| [12,47] is that the kinds of problems that we've been talking about in this interview, that do arise for anybody teaching a course like English 476. For anybody teaching, whether an Aboriginal scholar teaching the course or a non-Aboriginal one, and of course the tensions are going to be different for each of those people, but I think still, the challenge of such a course, a one-term course, in the midst of a curriculum that by and large, turns its back on everything that is discussed, that is studied, and that is urgent in such a course, is, yeah, a replication of the 'lonely island' situation of Aboriginal studies and Aboriginal scholars and Aboriginal students in the institution. The proliferation of courses is one way to produce change. but really, I mean what we're talking about also, is changing graduate programs, is changing the construction of honours degrees, is requiring as part of every English major just to speak of this department, that students take an Aboriginal writing course, not the proliferation of English 476, but the proliferation of many different approaches to Aboriginal writing across the curriculum. That's what needs to happen. That's a political responsibility, and uh, I think it's largely not acknowledged. |
| [12,48] Karrmen: We have heard in the past, people asked the question, you know, make the statement that we don't deal with these issues in our unit, or our faculty, or our department, or whatever, so, that's my position, and I guess, one question I've been wondering, is why do you, why do these issues matter across the university? What is the political responsibility of the units that don't deal with these issues, that it's not inherently, overtly, a part of the...structure or infrastructure of their department, or area, or unit? Why do they matter? |
| [12,49] Lorraine: I guess in a nutshell they matter because we're in the unceded territory of the Musqueam, because, um...and we exist within a purview of both the Charter and the Indian Act, because this is a Canadian university and these issues are not only urgently not resolved in terms of land claims in BC, but not resolved in terms of the rights of Indigenous people, and the economic survival of Indigenous people and their cultural, linguistic, social, political survival, and vital transformation right across this country. The key issue is not, does a given discipline have some kind of adjunct that does its politics for it. Some do, some don't. The key issue is that this is a Canadian university, and as such, it has responsibility both as a whole unit, and in terms of all of its individual component departments, and programs, and faculties. It has a responsibility to this place. It has a responsibility to this land, it has a responsibility for the current historical situation of everyone who lives in this land. A university that has no sense of responsibility to its constituents is indeed, merely a corporation selling soap. If this is a place that makes an ethical claim to the citizens of this country, then it must also make an ethical claim to the Aboriginal citizens of this country and to the study of everything, |
| [12,50] across the disciplines, relevant to their concerns as to the study of everything relevant to the concerns of others in this country. That's too broadly put, but I think, it's important not to get into the debate of what does microbiology owe the Musqueam. If you localize it, you trivialize it, in some ways. A big picture analysis that sees a commitment to human rights, a commitment to equality as understood in terms of the Charter...as a defining characteristic of the modern university, is inevitably a commitment to the equality of rights of Aboriginal people. If it doesn't, if that commitment doesn't extend to intellectual and disciplinary commitment, then it's mere tourism. |
|
Jennifer Kramer |
| [13,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion that you typically encounter around Aboriginal issues in the classroom, or in your workplace? |
| [13,2] Jennifer: Well as...that is the main area where I teach, it is certainly an issue that isn't something that comes up in any secondary way. It is usually the subject of what we were talking about, either around representational issues in the museum or, around anthropology in general. I don't know if I should be saying that, not to self identify but...and since the area where I have the most experience, is with First Nations Northwest coast peoples, and there aren't...it's a topic that we talk about all the time. Am I satisfied with the way it's taught? Is that what you asked me? |
| [13,3] Karrmen: Or, well, how do you think about... |
| [13,4] Jennifer: That the classroom experience? |
| [13,5] Karrmen: Yeah, that level of discussion, how do you find it ? |
| [13,6] Jennifer: Well I find that right off the bat, as an anthropologist, you have to address the issue that because I am a non-Native person, that that has to be something that comes out right away. So basically my first day of introducing myself, I explain that I am not First Nations myself, and I am not trying to claim any expertise over the subject matter, but I am trying to share what I know. And I also talk about how, in the West we tend to think about knowledge as something that everyone should have free access to, and that you should be allowed academically to learn as much as you can, and that... from what I've learned from First Nations perspectives, that often knowledge has be earned, or there is definitely a certain responsibility that goes with sharing it or hearing it. So I tell people right off the bat, that not only am I not, you know, speaking for First Nations people, but what they're learning is a privilege and that it comes with a responsibility. So we're right at the beginning, |
| [13,7] talking about these issues of access and about what it means to have Native and non-Native people in a classroom sharing these subjects. And I also usually talk about how I hope that what I'm doing as an anthropologist is moving towards a time when there will be Native people speaking in my place, not me trying to represent a subject of which I can't be an expert in that way. So that usually opens the issue right away. I also talk, even if the subject isn't specifically about Aboriginal issues, but let say it's about museums, and heritage, and tourism, I talk about how, surprisingly, these are emotional issues that people are quite connected to, and that I often find in my classrooms, that people will have emotional outbursts that they don't expect to have over something, whether it's about identity, or language, or you know, who has the right to land, and that we have to be incredibly careful of each other in the classroom to give each other respect, and to listen. And so basically what I say is that it's a given, that we're all going to have perspectives, that we're going to be coming from different backgrounds. It's very important to me in the classroom that we create a safe environment, where people feel comfortable with what are going to be hot issues, I think. |
| [13,8] You know, and so I'm trying, I try to at least acknowledge that we might hit tricky areas where people disagree with each other, but I expect a level of respect...of always listening to each other, you know. I don't expect that everyone has to agree. But...at least that, and you know, it's surprising, when you get these sort of hot emotions come up. People don't expect it, sometimes. |
| [13,9] Karrmen: Just out of curiosity, when you say, "safe," what is a safe classroom? |
| [13,10] Jennifer: Well, one of the things that I talk about when I first introduce myself is that, my classrooms, I try to say, I'm not up here to lecture you. It's way more important that we create debate and dialogue around the readings that I've assigned, so we've created, you know some boundaries and ideas about what we're all sharing, what we come into the classroom with, but it's not for me to stand up and teach people what to know, it's for us to together, work together on this, and that...the backgrounds that people bring in are their strengths. So, we have to share that; so what I mean by safety is that people feel comfortable enough to share their opinions. Which may not be...the ones that they think everyone wants to hear, you know? I'll give you an example, um...we were talking about repatriation...which of course is an incredibly important, vital issue from an Aboriginal perspective, um...and...I can't remember...I guess we were just talking about in museums, the current of bringing objects out of museums and back into communities of, of origin, that's what we say in the museum world, origination communities...and I had a student that, had never self-identified as a Native, |
| [13,11] didn't look Native, wouldn't have known, suddenly burst into tears, and say, "if you take these objects out of museums, then me, someone that's lost connections with part of my Aboriginal background, won't have any access to them." And she just...burst into hysterics. I mean...not hysterics, but she was upset. And it was something that we had to...you know, the only thing you can do in that kind of situation is validate the opinion and thank the person for sharing and being so open to what is clearly a very, very important topic to her. When political correctness, I think, would say, yes of course all objects should go back to First Nations communities. They have a stronger claim. That's one way one could have handled it, but I don't think I have a right in a classroom to stand up and say that. I mean, how could I dismiss this student's serious emotional need that some objects remain in museums? So that's the kind of example of when you don't know what's going to happen. But I feel privileged that she was comfortable enough to say that, to share that. |
| [13,12] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [13,13] Jennifer: Claiming authority. Um...as an anthropologist, just as you said, we're supposed to be the expert on "our" people, makes me cringe, the people that we've spent the most time working with. I don't...and of course, traditionally anthropologists used to say, "I studied the...fill in the blank," or, you know, "I researched..." and it's horrendous, right, and it's a huge power imbalance, and of course, we're trying, we're moving more and more to participatory action research, and collaborative museology, that's really, not only the more ethical way to go but such a beneficial, you know, wonderful experience, um...but still when you're in front of a classroom, students do turn to you for validation about stuff, you know. If someone says one thing and someone says another, and then they all turn to you and want to know what the right answer is. And, my own, I mean I came out of a time when postmodernism and poststructuralism and postcolonial theory were happening in the 90's, and perhaps they've become rather...no one wants to talk about them anymore, but I still feel as, |
| [13,14] my way of thinking is that there aren't any right answers. And that we...you can know things about something, from having had experiences, but, I do believe in a certain relativism of knowledge, that...you know, I'm not going to stand up there and say this is right and that's wrong. What I might say is, from my experience, this is what I saw people doing or saying or, this author says X, but often I turn the , in a difficult situation, like let's say a student gets up and you had examples in your script, in your film, of students getting up and saying really stupid ignorant things, I often turn it back on the class, and say, how would you respond to that? And it's interesting, cause I know from your film it sounded like the students were saying shouldn't the teacher stand up and say this is wrong, you shouldn't say that, but...it's a difficult position for a teacher because, again it goes back to that safety issue. I never want to turn to a student and say, "well that's a really stupid racist thing you just said!" I mean, I try to believe deep down that people aren't trying to injure each other. |
| [13,15] Every now and then, I suppose there really are people who carry hatred and want to get that out, but I really try to believe that people are speaking from ignorance and not realizing what the impact is. So I try to turn that back to other students, to say, well how would you respond to that, you know, and not make it me as the teacher saying, you know...but I've had scenarios like that, it's come up even in, forget Aboriginal issues, I had taught an introduction to anthropology class years and years ago as a sessional, not at UBC, and we were talking about stereotypes about people, and I was trying to bring it home that we all carry these, and so we were coming up with the example of...Asians as bad drivers. Yeah, it's a classic one in Vancouver, right, I was out in Surrey...and so we were coming up with reasons why it might me, you're an immigrant, you come from different rules, or we're judging people just because we tend to see, you know, a difference in their face, all these reasons that might rationalize that stereotype or whatever, like showing it's inappropriate but also trying to take it apart, and then I had this student just turn to me and say, |
| [13,16] "well isn't it possible that Asian women can't turn their head?" and that just floored me, I mean, that was where I didn't turn to the class and say "well what do you think" I went, "no, no, no," you know, every now and then people say things that just floor you. But you can only sort of be benign about it right, like, that's really sad that you would suggest that, but yet, at least for her to come up with that statement meant that she felt a certain comfort level at least to participate, so that we could correct, so maybe there is an authority level there, a little bit, but...it's very delicate. |
| [13,17] Karrmen: That's a really good one! That beats mine. |
| [13,18] Jennifer: Yeah, I was... |
| [13,19] Karrmen: I don't know how you...I guess yeah, there's just no um...law against...you know...people just, being, like natural law against that kind of, the possibility of that kind of comment, you know? |
| [13,20] Jennifer: Yeah, I just try to take it in the face of ignorance, not hurt, trying to hurt people...but also, you know the other thing I do is that I show that I don't know everything. So, I mean for example I've taught classes, I have a terrible ear for languages. And I am constantly butchering First Nations names, and some I've learned, done my very, very best to learn, and others I don't know. And, or, I can attempt it but I know it won't be right. And so I've had, I tell students, often I do get a lot of, a number of First Nations students I think, probably...not enough, but more probably than some other areas, because anthropology does tend to be one of those areas where First Nations are, and so I ask for correction. You know, so I've had back and forth where a student will correct me, I'll try to say it, I'll say it again, I'll try to say it. So you show that, it's okay to mess up, at least if it's in a position of you're trying to do it correctly, you're trying to hear, you're trying to listen and follow. You know, so I will...you know, if a student contradicts me, let's say, I'll backpedal and say, "well let's talk about that," you know. |
| [13,21] Karrmen: Have you had experiences in the classroom around discussions of Aboriginal issues or situations in this area that have been particularly memorable, like certain incidents or certain stories about...what happened? |
| [13,22] Jennifer: Yeah, I had this um...I don't know why this one stuck in my head, again it was sort of an emotional response, I had a relatively small class, maybe there were 20 or 30 students, and I showed a film...called "The Washing of Tears" which is an incredibly powerful film about the repatriation of a Muchalaht whaler's washing shrine from the American Museum of National History, potentially to Friendly Cove and Yuquot. And it's this...the repatriation actually doesn't happen, but it's a film that talks about the communities' troubles and histories with colonialism and the Canadian government, they were forced to move, residential schools, all kinds of awful things, but then talks about cultural revival and the community coming together and the importance of ritual, and language, and song and dance and sort of catalyst by this experience of going to the American Museum of Natural History and meeting this incredibly powerful shrine that shouldn't be at the museum , |
| [13,23] so it's a very uplifting film, and at the end of it, I had an older student just say, "you know, I can't listen to drumming anymore." Like, drumming...she's like, "I've had it with listening to Native drumming." And you know, she was a non-Native, BC, white woman, you know, in probably middle age. And I was really taken aback by that, because the film was very...it was very uplifting, it's very positive, it has beautiful music in it, and I realized that what she was saying, I can't remember whether she had it in so many words was, "I'm tired of being made to feel guilty." You know, which you get a lot actually, that when you teach a lot about the difficult pressures and the horrible things that happen under colonialism, um...and still happening under, you know, Canadian native law and the inequalities, that some people just start to feel oppressed. And I've had it...more, many times where students will come up to me and say, "my parents say you're brainwashing me," or...um...or, "I'm tired of feeling guilty, I didn't make this problem, it happened a hundred years ago," or it happened, so you really have to be careful about, you don't wanna...and I don't know, |
| [13,24] I don't remember exactly what I said to this woman except that, again, I wasn't going to stand up and say no, your emotions are wrong. You shouldn't be feeling guilty, this was a positive movie, you shouldn't be rejecting this wonderful movie, but it did raise this sense of...you know, there's, I mean, like you said, it's not an "us" and "them" thing, but there are certainly people that feel threatened, on everywhere. On every side of these issues. Cause they're so difficult. |
| [13,25] Karrmen: So your reaction at the time, was it...? |
| [13,26] Jennifer: Well it was sort of flabbergasted. But this was a long time ago...I'm sure I responded to what she said because actually I try really hard, I can't stand it when a professor asks for feedback, a student gives feedback, and then the professor just moves on, I find that so...discomforting, and I really...it's interesting, because we were talking when we met at the Department of Anthropology, about people saying, people only learn, they only move out of their opinions if you make them uncomfortable. But I'm not sure that's true, I actually worry that if you make someone uncomfortable they'll get more resistant, I think. You know, they won't be in that safe space to go, hmm maybe I could think about this in another way. Maybe I could take out my own immediate reaction of being made to feel guilty and I could say, wow, you know, these drums are such an important, vital, recovery tool, um...so you need that, you know, so the response has to be one that, on one hand, says okay, I hear what you're saying. |
| [13,27] You know, I hear what you're saying. On the other hand, you know...you try gently...to, to take a step back and say, maybe there are other ways you could think about the drumming. But I can't honestly tell you what I said right after because it was probably eight years ago. So it's stuck quite a long time. |
| [13,28] Karrmen: Did, like in thinking back on it, was there...would, could things have happened differently, what do you think? |
| [13,29] Jennifer: I do think that there's a hesitation, I mean, you'd have to be a really brave teacher for example to say, "let's call a debate." Or you know, "let's stop what we're doing and really..." I mean, what you could do I suppose, I didn't think of it then, is, but you could break into small discussion groups, that's one way, you don't want to pinpoint a student and say, "what you just said is an issue, and we're going to now, stop the class and discuss it," I really feel putting someone on the spot like that isn't the right way to do any kind of teaching. But I do try to draw it back and, and...try to be more general about the situation. Like I remember another class on representation and museums, we were talking about Quebecois identity and um...language revitalization. So it wasn't about Aboriginal issues in particular, but there started to be this sort of match between two of the students, one who felt very strong Quebecois identity, and the other...we had just read an article that had talked about sort of the constructed qualities about certain traditions. Not in any way meaning to malign them, but as soon as you talk about the invented-ness of tradition, people get very defensive, right? |
| [13,30] I mean, same with Aboriginal issues. And so I had to like say, "okay, I'm recognizing that you guys are about to start yelling at each other, let's take a step back and see why this is such...why this happened, why this is so heated, and try to take it away from the personal." I think what I also just said was, "see I told you this would be, you know, in unexpected ways, will get you, we're not learning about other cultures, we're learning about ourselves at the same time." |
| [13,31] Karrmen: Have you have other experiences that have been better or worse? |
| [13,32] Jennifer: I, I have to say on the whole, I...I found my teaching experiences really quite lovely, and I try really, really hard like I say, not to assert an authoritative expertise presence. Um...and I try really hard to say that the class is with the students. Like the students need to participate, and need to be there, and need to respect each other in order the make the class happen. Um, I mean I know that may sound a little idealistic, but I'm always sort of haranguing them, going "I need more feedback! I want you to contribute. I'm not up here to tell you what to think." You know, so I can display these issues in a pattern perhaps, that might make sense, so that we could start talking about them. But I don't...you know. I don't come up with the answers. And you have to, I know this has come up many times I'm sure already in your interview process, but you have to really turn yourself back from turning to that one Native student that has always been very vocal and willing to talk, and say "well what do you think?" You really have to, of course, you don't want to put anyone on the spot to do that. |
| [13,33] But it's very tempting, when you get very strong Aboriginal students who do assert themselves very nicely, but at the same time...nope. Or assume who is or isn't Aboriginal because that clearly doesn't work, at all. So...yeah, I would say on the whole, and I also, one of my techniques also is to say, "you know, I can stand here and say nothing. I have the patience, I am now learned enough to know that I can stand here, and one second won't feel that long. I can wait until you come up with something to say." |
| [13,34] Karrmen: So you talked a bit about some of your techniques of how you um, kind of dealing with these situation, were there others that you didn't mention, or did you want a chance to talk about any others that you've used to deal with some of these situations? |
| [13,35] Jennifer: Often, students...I do a lot of, I have the students do a lot of presentations, too, so they're representing their own opinions, and self, and um...that works very nicely. I mean...you know, it's not for me to stand up and say, "this is an Aboriginal experience," but to have an Aboriginal student do it, or to have a non-Aboriginal student do it but say, "this is my perspective on X," just carries so much more weight. I'm very, um...I'm very outspoken about my own background, I just start by saying, "look, I'm a Jew from New York City," you know, and... "I wasn't raised in BC, I'm not Canadian by birth," you know, so that gives me an outside status that can be both beneficial and completely not. You know, but I think just, again...explaining that there is no sort of authentic insider, perhaps. I mean, that's not what I mean. I mean, there are authentic insiders, but, it's not so easy to label, you know... who has the right to say what, I think. Um...what else do I do? I don't know...oh! I bring in a lot of guest speakers, that's the other thing, I mean, you...yeah, as many people that are on the ground experiencing more of what you're talking about, is so much better, and students really like that, really appreciate that. |
| [13,36] Karrmen: So...can you, do you want to talk a little bit about what you, what um...or maybe a little bit more about what contributes to the success of some of the techniques that you've talked about? |
| [13,37] Jennifer: Well, I would be...immodest to say that I knew, but um...I do tend to get good student feedback, so, I mean...again, I put a lot on creating that healthy environment, and it being inclusive, and if an issue comes up where people aren't feeling included, then trying to point that out, and not by pointing at a student, and saying, "you just made us all feel uncomfortable," but showing that it's a difficult issue, or talking about it, at least enough, I mean I wouldn't stop an entire class and spend half an hour having a hug-in or something like that, but at least acknowledging that it's a tricky situation, or I don't know the answer, or in my experience this is what I learned from that, so you don't say "no," you never say, "no, I completely invalidate your feelings." I mean, I have been put in, I get put in difficult positions when rightly so, I'll have an Aboriginal student say, "how come there aren't more Aboriginal people working at the museum of anthropology," let's say, "why aren't there more Native curators?" And of course it always immediately puts your back up because, you want to say, you know...there should be, you do say, "there should be more, there aren't enough. |
| [13,38] Here's some of the reasons I see why." On the other hand, I validate your point that, it's not enough to just say, people aren't interested, or, you know, they're not getting their Western academic education, so you know, you have certain...university degrees that you think you need, you know, I mean it isn't enough. But I...it's what makes you uncomfortable but at the same time I try to just stand up to it and say, "you're right," you know. I mean, "we'd do much better with, and these are the people that work there that are Aboriginal, but it's not enough." Um...I guess, to be successful you'd have to be willing to take a little bit of push. You know? Cause we are all implicit in it, and none of us are sort of holier than thou, and say, I know, I do everything right, and I'm not racist, and I'm not...we're all part of it, so. Just do your best to acknowledge it without falling down in embarrassment, you know. |
| [13,39] Karrmen: Are there things that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [13,40] Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I think...sometimes, if someone tells you something, shares something, and you get too personal with them, like you follow up on what they're saying, like if they share a hurt, or, and you ask for more, you know, you ask for explanation, or "can you tell me more about your background," like you're basically prying more than people want to share. That's not appropriate, like I figure the...the, sometimes, like I say it kind of goes back to asking the Aboriginal student too, because you're trying to say, I don't have the authority so who would have the authority to make a point, you know, but, it's a burden to force someone to share something that they don't want to share. I mean, I would never pick someone out of the room and say, "you, tell me about X" but if they've already said something, let's say, you know...you don't want to keep going, and actually, I'm not thinking of an Aboriginal student, I'm thinking of a situation when I was a grad student TA, and we were talking about Uncle Tom laws in the United States, and we had an African American woman from the South, |
| [13,41] and I was... you know, and I ended up somehow, in trying to justify in what I was going to say, asking her how old she was, and it was a total mess and I just had to backtrack and just apologize profusely. I was trying to just get at, would you have experienced these kind of, oh it was terrible! It was awful, and I completely misjudged her age, you know, and you just turn bright red and go, please excuse me, that was inappropriate. But what I was trying to get at was, "you might have experienced something of this, what can you share?" Yeah, so you don't want to go there. Won't do that again, at least try not to. But sometimes when you're put on the spot, it's amazing, you're sort of fight or flight kind of reactions comes up and you suffuse red and the first thing that comes to your mind you want to say, instead of taking a deep breath and just take a step back and...you know. This is important, it's important that we're talking about these difficult issues. But...it's not easy. And sometimes they say that, you know, if I'm talking about residential schools, or...I mean it does get oppressive. You have to warn people, we're talking about such incredibly loaded history but also history that has a contemporary, you know, that's here. So you almost have to warn people, to prepare themselves. |
| [13,42] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment, around these discussions? |
| [13,43] Jennifer: I can't speak for the greater UBC, because I'm not in other people's classrooms, I'm not the student that gets to have a wide range, so I only know sort of, of my own department. And actually I don't really get to hear other professors teach either, so I - it's too bad actually. Um...certainly in my, you know, as an anthropologist, it's a huge issue with us. I mean, we spoke of this before, of our right to teach if we're non-Native, to represent others, this was...anthropology had colonial roots, it had a difficult history that we have to acknowledge, but I also think that anthropology has done a lot of work into the 80's and 90's and into the present in trying to build from that and get away from that past and recognize where we messed up and try to do better. So this participatory action research, or collaborations, I actually do believe, I mean...I'm almost hesitant to say it because we're so used to being the strawman that everyone yells at, but I actually do believe that we work very closely with First Nations right here in BC, that we live with, we're not talking about somewhere on the other side of the world, um...not only do we work with, but some of our own are, you know, |
| [13,44] but I mean it's the same with the museums, so it's a collaborative project, and I think for that reason, I'm proud of...where we've come, I think, in the department, I think. But you know, you're blind to your own faults, so. Even though we try to, one of the methods of anthropology is a self-reflexivity, and even though, about our methods, about what we're teaching, and even though that's sort of become no longer trendy, you know we did that, no one wants any more navel gazing, I think it does create a sense of you know, who are we in the classroom, and to cringe when someone calls us an expert, and who are we speaking for. And one of the things that I say as an anthropologist, is, while it has been shown that it has been completely inappropriate to speak for others, I do think that there is a role for anthropologist to create these bridges of understanding. So, I see anthropologists as translators. And, while we may not be able to translate everything perfectly, at least we're trying. I mean, it's basically about creating mutual, cross-cultural understanding, and cross-cultural could be even within UBC here, or within Vancouver, I mean, you know. So, I do believe in that, that we're working towards that. |
| [13,45] Karrmen: What might the university do to provide a better context for these discussions? |
| [13,46] Jennifer: Well, I think this project is great and you might even want to call a symposium or a panel on it. Because I, I've...raised it with a number of colleagues and they've all seem quite interested, but I think people are scared to come stand before a camera, because they're all fearful of being accused of doing it wrong. I, I do believe, I mean, I know it's..like I said, it's very easy for a student to stand on the other side and say..."you didn't do it right," it's so hard when you're the one professor, and I would like to believe that, I think people are aware of these issues but they may not know how to, you know, they might be agonizing about how to do better. I think they are. And so, if you had, I mean, maybe it's through TAG, or maybe it's the teacher, I don't know what that stands for, but it's a teacher program right, or a conference on this subject, I think it's really important. Speaking about and with, perhaps, or, how do you...something like that would be really interesting. Um, and important. Um... |
| [13,47] I also think that there's somewhat of a...isolation between the House of Learning and First Nations studies program, I mean it's nice for us because we're just right upstairs and we're close, and because of the museum, I feel like I have a little bit of a sense I get alerted to what goes on. But I get the sense that Aboriginal students, well, I mean, I'm told repeatedly that Aboriginal students feel alienated in this campus, so. Maybe the next step is calling a symposium where students and profs get together to talk about exactly what you're doing. I know it's tough, I mean, this university is humongous and even if you feel like the most majority student on it, you're still alienated by the bureaucracy and the structures, I mean...it's pretty alienating. Sorry I don't have any more specifics. |
| [13,48] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [13,49] Jennifer: I think the...I think talking about the process of teaching these issues is really important, and that something, for example, in collaborative museology, which means, museum professionals and whatever community stakeholders you're working with coming together, the emphasis had been on product, right, like granting agencies and universities want to know what the product is, you did an exhibit, you wrote a paper, you published a book. But what we're realizing is, that the product isn't nearly as significant as the process of working together. And so what we need to do is for example, get a university or granting agency to legitimize and recognize as you know, the work of process. And that's something that we're fighting, even, you know for a professor to get merit or to get promotion based on research, like the act of collaborating, um...isn't acknowledged yet. So I think if process was emphasized better, then we would spend more time talking about what we're doing, you know. And being reflective about methods and that, I think will help. Because it will get people talking instead of going home and feeling defensive, or you know, why didn't this happen. |
| [13,50] Karrmen: Well, I'm at the, sort of end of these questions but I was wondering if there was anything I didn't ask you, or anything you wanted to say? |
| [13,51] Jennifer: No, just, what I said before, which is I think this is an incredibly important project, I mean, just having this kind of study to get people talking about it, is going to raise people's awareness, and...you know, sharing it on the internet, good. But also, good to do it publicly at UBC and get people together, um...I don't know if there's forums for, I mean, it tends to create this "us" and "them," but I was just thinking about this model of Palestinian and Jewish kids coming together, and sort of being beyond their parents' hostility, like getting together and talking about solving issues, and I wonder where there are ways that various students across UBC could come together and talk about these issues. Or invite professors to come and talk about these issues, so that it becomes more of a, we all take agency over creating the environment that we're learning in. I don't know. Maybe even inviting people to the House of Learning because it's such a wonderful place, and probably there are people that feel like they shouldn't go if they have an express reason to be there. |
|
Patrick Moore |
| [14,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion addressing Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classes or in the work place? |
| [14,2] Patrick: There're different kinds of discussions like I'm not totally aware what other people do exactly in their classes. All I have is certain impression of that. In anthropology as a discipline, there's a lot of concern with First Nations, both because we have a lot of First Nations students in our classes and because most of us in our department work at least in some of the time in First Nations communities. So people tend to be fairly aware of different issues and how it translates into their actual classroom discussions. I don't really know. Because we don't really hear what people do in other people's classes. And even for myself it's a challenge to always know exactly how you are going to involve First Nations students in various discussions and I've gone through trying different things over several years that I've been here to try and improve what I do. You're never totally satisfied exactly with what you do, but you always try to think of any new ways of engaging people or making it more satisfying for them. I have a fair amount of experience... UBC is it's own challenge, like doesn't matter where you come from and what your background is, it has his own various challenges, in you know meeting student needs. |
| [14,3] So before I'd come here I lived 15 years in First Nations communities, and I was mostly working with First Nations language teachers so some background in what people are interested in and the diversity of First Nations populations. But it's still doesn't totally prepare you for um... all the different interests of people that you are going to run into in your classes, and how to manage that. |
| [14,4] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspect of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [14,5] Patrick: There are lots of difficulties there because for one thing, even when you know about something, even things that you've experienced first hand, your perspective is going to be different than people who are living in those communities experiencing them as First Nations. So I lived quite a number of years in communities they're almost entirely First Nations and my experiences of those are going to be different than people that were living there because... somebody who's working as a teacher, you're kind of in a privileged position. So often you're in the position where you'll know about certain things or talk to people about certain things, but your perspective isn't exactly going to be theirs either. And at the same time, because you are the professor, you can't lean on people to express always what their impressions and feelings are about different things. So you kind of... what I've been working on is to create a space where people have an opportunity if they want to address those issues that are directly of concern to them as First Nations students on their own terms. Like to have times when all of the students are doing fairly extended reports on some topic that they've selected. |
| [14,6] First Nations students might select a topic that's related to the First Nations, they might not, they might select any number of things. That's kind of a more satisfactory position to be in than being called on to talk about something. Because then you have the control and also you're able to contribute from whatever perspective. So that's kind of been a positive way of dealing with that. But there are definitely a lot of challenges for dealing with different issues. There're things too that...there're issues that are important that have to do with experiences people have had, a lot of painful experiences and even just being in communities when you know people who've been through things where they suffered a lot, if you see certain things, like if you use certain films like there're videos about residential school experiences, people talking about their experiences, or even things from other places like there're things in Rabbit-Proof Fence that touch on some of these things. They're really emotional for even myself to see them. They're almost too emotional to deal with. So it's hard to think when you find yourself being very emotional about things you kind of want to avoid them to a certain extent but yet you feel sometimes it's important, but you have to have a very careful discussion around those before you even bring them up and with people afterwards. And sometimes you have to realize people might not even be able to see that kind of thing. |
| [14,7] It might be really emotional for them and sometimes too there're people that have different perspectives on things. As bad as the residential schools were, some people I work with, as language teachers, are still very supportive of their experiences at residential schools. You have to allow for that range of experience that people have. They may want to say, "oh, yes." Some relatives that may have this different view that people have to have the right to voice those kind of views as well even though you're presenting a certain perspective on things that may have been kind of negative about it. Anyway, those are some of the things that come up. There's also such diversity in the First Nations experience and people coming from very different communities, different experiences and in classes we only have a certain amount of time to get to really know people. Like I try and find out a fair amount about people. To really know anything significant about what people's experience has been we often don't have an opportunity to do that even when you are trying and get to know people a little bit. So that's always an area to work on. I think that's helpful when they're doing their presentations, the classroom presentations, sometimes they are able to bring in some of their background. You get a better sense of what their experiences had been. |
| [14,8] Karrmen: Have there been any experiences that you've had in classes that have been particularly memorable? |
| [14,9] Patrick: You are always learning from all your interactions afterwards. You kind of replay things afterwards so you're thinking, "how could I do that better? What could I've said in this situation?" Or, "that was really silly what I did in that situation." So partly which you're trying to do is create a situation where you are not going to run into some kind of situation where you feel kind of out of place yourself in what you are saying or how other people feel they're being positioned. Part of it is a matter of course planning so... when I would've first been teaching here, I didn't have as many opportunities for students to have that kind of strong voice, not just First Nations students but everybody in terms, especially in certain courses of not having an opportunity to make a big presentation, to move into that professor role, not exactly professor role but the student presentation role, to have a voice where they can talk about what mattered to them and what their analysis was of different situations. So if you don't plan for that kind of contribution, you're sort of always in the position of being the one, first of all, you are taking more of the "expert" kind of position, you are always the one that's going to be the expert then, and it's more like people have things that they want to say... |
| [14,10] ...which you can, there's a lot of interaction in my classes so people would be able to talk. But if they are not able to determine what some of the readings are or bring in a lot of things that are around the web or make a long presentation, it's sort of like you are contending for space a little bit especially you are dealing with First Nations issues. They want to make more of a contribution. So situations that I would be getting in earlier on with my teaching would have to do with not creating enough space for that kind of voice for students whether it's First Nations students or other students. And then you'll be in a little bit of a more uncomfortable position of almost contending over the space of what's being said. So there are terribly memorable incidents, but enough of it that you're thinking about how can you do a better job, what could you improve in the future. |
| [14,11] Karrmen: Have you been in a situation where there is a situation or incident in the classroom that in itself was just really memorable, like particular encounter or particular conversations that highlighted some of the issues you've been talking about? |
| [14,12] Patrick: Actually my more memorable experiences have to do not with First Nations students, but with other students. One of the more memorable ones, which is kind of similar, when going back to when I was just a TA, I used to TA my own course in Indiana, and there was a student who was, she was a black student, and her analysis of anthropology was, "why do you guys always just doing analysis? Like I do dance, I do art, why don't you involve people in doing things? Like why should we be..." she was saying something about body painting in Amazonia and she was saying we should be doing body painting. I don't know if we are ready for that kind of engagement. But kind of good points, good ideas, the need to be more engaging in your teaching and so on. And a lot of students like that, offering at various times, good advice for ways you could improve your things. Actually I did have a First Nations student once, who had some good things I've incorporated a little bit. One of her observations was, "you can't always dwell on negative things, either, you need to incorporate things like humor and so on"... |
| [14,13] ...and her presentation, she was careful to have kind of balance between more serious issues and a little bit of humorous side of things. And she was saying, "nobody is...wants to dwell on that negative space, you got to have a balance there to represent what people's lives are really like." Those were some of things. Sometimes people put things in their course evaluations that are helpful, sometimes they just bring up things to you just to tell you. I haven't really had kind of real contentious interactions with people but still you often are feeling like you might be failing certain student, that are either are not real outgoing, or they have different interests, or could become engaged better if you have different topics. One of the things that you always end up doing is throwing out certain materials, certain topics, certain readings that you've been doing that you just don't see people giving that strong response to, to try and get things that people find more interesting. And thinking of new activities too that people will be engaged with. In some of my courses, there's... I know First Nations students, especially in the way I've originally been doing things, would feel a little left out. Like in upper level anthropology courses they assume you've taken a series of anthropology courses and sometimes First Nations students, some of them have done quite a few anthropology courses... |
| [14,14] ...some of them would be taking a course just because they have interest in that subject without having as much background. So in that situation, anybody who doesn't have as much background, they can feel that they've been left out some of the background information that they need. And it's important to have readings and activities that don't depend critically on that, or that you don't dwell on it excessively to the point that people feel that they're really disadvantaged in trying to write their exams and papers and so on. That it's really something where everybody can excel to the best of their ability. And that... it can be hard balancing that, and I think I've tried to improve in that kind of area but it's a little bit challenging sometimes. Some of the literature too... I tend to avoid articles that are highly theoretical, and at a 300 level course, I'd like to have readings that are still generally accessible, you can make a theoretical point, but they're not requiring you have such an extensive knowledge so something that people who are in First Nations Studies or in other disciplines whose just taking a course out of interest, most will be able to do well. |
| [14,15] Karrmen: So you've talked about kind of being aware of the capacity that student potentially coming into upper level courses, kind of adapting reading lists as a way of negotiating the kind of reality that people aren't necessarily going to have the background they need to engage with the course contents that kind of thing. So in terms of... are there other strategies or techniques that you've used that you found helpful in working with those kind of situations or other kinds of situations that you've talked about. |
| [14,16] Patrick: I think about the area that I had the most success with was having students do presentations. So each student does their own presentations. These aren't like group presentations. The challenge there is if you have 40 students in a 300 level course, and they're each doing fairly long presentations, these are often like half an hour, how do you accommodate that in your time schedule because they are going to take a major part of your course. And the other thing is...what I did was have them do topics that are related to what our readings are. So I condense my presentation during the week basically they'll be doing at least one if not part of the second day of the week with their presentations. So they have a theme that they are addressing that fits into the theme that we are doing for the week. And they get to select any of the ones that we're doing during the course. What you have to have there though, you have to have faith that they are going to do something that's really effective, and profound and engaging, because if it was really not terribly well done, and they are not... these are people that aren't trained as professors, they have an interest in the topic, you can have your whole course can go down as a result if they weren't doing good presentations. |
| [14,17] So it requires a certain amount of faith that they are going to find things. You can help them to a certain extent to identify what are good sources, what are some good resources you can bring in, audiovisual kind of thing. And I did this last two times I taught this course and people's presentations were really good, incredibly good, very creative and made use of all kinds of things. Sometimes people had outside speakers, they had a lot of things that they were using from the Web, they had a lot of audiovisual things, good discussions, good analysis. Very rarely a student that just was shaky to do a public presentation kind of thing, either they don't like to speak in that kind of situation or... but students were understanding, with that helpful to get them through it. So I was really pleased with that and it solved certain problems with First Nations students especially having the ability to address things the way they wanted to bring in, whatever resources they wanted to have lots of time to plan about what they do to select exactly which topics. |
| [14,18] But it's creating this joint teaching operation, I don't know if it would be something that a lot of people would want to do. It's not downloading all the work on the students, because you still have a lot of work to do and working with them and getting the presentations ready and making sure it goes well each week and so on. But it was positive, especially for the involvement of the First Nations students. And I think too all of the students got a lot out of their involvement but also what other students did. It made the class generally more interesting. High evaluations on that course, but I think that was good, kind of nerve-wracking but... |
| [14,19] Karrmen: Are there things you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [14,20] Patrick: One year I decided.... Most of my courses I rarely use books because you're tied in to dealing with a certain book over a long period of time and when I'm trying to address a number of topics, it's hard to find a book which is going to address first of all the different topics that you want to address. But one year I decided that... I don't know why I was thinking this... but I ought to do some more books, I added more books to my reading list. It was disastrous from my organization and teaching style to stick with a single book and you have a greater possibility that there're going to be parts of a book that you really don't agree with their analysis, or it might not be engaging enough. Parts of the book were good, parts of the book were dull, but you kind of feel like just can't pick and choose, like you assigned this whole book so you got to do the whole thing. And it may have been I just had terrible books. And it wasn't a strategy, I wasn't trying to do that to address First Nations students. I think I was trying to be a little more conventional or I just felt like I haven't been doing enough. But that wasn't a strategy that was useful for me. |
| [14,21] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment? |
| [14,22] Patrick: I don't know what goes on in other classes really that much, because I don't see them. There're certain things that at UBC that I think work against a lot of substantial improvement in the teaching in the classes. I think large class size isn't terribly helpful. In Anthropology the 100 and 200 level courses are quite large to the extent that professors would have a hard time knowing the students. They have a hard time just knowing their names. Students find it unusual when I'm teaching a 200 level course that I know all their names in a week or so. My impression is that people are coming and doing their lectures and having the content there but there but that there isn't a lot of personal interaction with students. I think that the pressure to do a lot of research can put the student engagement down the list of priorities. That people would have troubles responding to student emails or just be there in their offices if people want to come by to talk about something. Students can always... there're often situations that come up where students need to check with you about either something is going on in their lives or something they are working with in their coursework so we don't have a lot of opportunity for that back and forth or at least we are pressured not to have that. |
| [14,23] I tend to stubbornly resist those pressures but I know they are there for a lot of people. And I know the sensible thing for most professors would be to make the classroom interactions and student interactions as routine as possible and not worry about going too far into really improving your teaching and your interaction with students. I think it's unfortunate, but I think those pressures are here at UBC. |
| [14,24] Karrmen: So what do you think the university could do to provide a better context for discussions about Aboriginal issues or the other issues you've been mentioning around teaching this content? |
| [14,25] Patrick: They were having some discussions. I went to these meetings about ideas, brainstorming ways for improving instruction and some of the themes that came up in people discussions were people were pressured at the opposite direction. The large class size and people being pressured to produce research, not being assessed as much in terms of their teaching, tends to push people in a direction where they are not really focusing on their teaching. And we were trying to come up with ideas, and of course, the ideal solutions that people are interested in are ones where you would have increasing awareness of things like Aboriginal issues or increased ability to meet the student needs while maintaining large class size and research protection. So some people thought that's not a real possibility. In other institutions, there's a realization that you have to balance those kind of things if you want to improve instruction you might have to lower the class size, you might have to provide more time for people to get to know their students, whatever. One of the things I mentioned was that we don't currently make use in our teaching... a lot of our teaching is not making use of currently technology... |
| [14,26] ...that we do a lot of production of things like articles but we don't do much production of things like video production or websites. Or when we do it's not valued as an academic production. In our teaching, if you are going to have things you used that are coming from websites, you need academic people producing those kind of online resources, or videos or whatever it is. If we are not engaging the use of that technology, we are kind of falling behind. Those sorts of technologies also have an appeal for general audience including our students who... everybody engages with that at some level. So we don't want to be in the position where we are falling behind The Discovery Channel or something. Feel like you come to UBC and you are only going with articles and classroom discussion and you never have any the other kind of resources. So it's something they going to think about a bit I think is the use of technology. So far as First Nations' issues, I think it's helpful to have general sessions where you raise people's interest in it. I think to have like a real substantive engagement withw hat are issues for the First Nations students, how can you improve your content dealing with First Nations issues, they're pretty substantial topics and if having lived 15, 20 years in First Nations communities and taught First Nations' language teachers having that kind of engagement, but I still feel that I really don't always know what I ought to know. |
| [14,27] It could be a long road for people that are just coming through in an academic environment to know what kind of issues people are interested in and what are concerns. It's a big task to raise that kind of consciousness and we face the same kind of issues with various constituencies in our students too. Like I'm more aware of the First Nations issues probably having worked in First Nations communities. But I know for instance in some of my courses, I have lots and lots of Asian students. They're a major part of the UBC student body. They're somewhat underrepresented in Anthropology but in some courses they're a major part. Even in terms of having adequate readings, I know in order to address that audience, I've had to really look hard because there's isn't enough academic work being done that's relevant to Asian students' experience in Canada, so the First Nations issues are hard to address. I think it's very important to do basic kind of things, even if you can't get people to the perfect level of awareness, you may never get there, but I think even things like the video you guys did, for people to see the video and just to hear people talk about it. Professors might react negatively, some professors might say, "Why do we have to worry about First Nations students? Why are they special group? Why are they picking on us?" |
| [14,28] Which I don't feel that way because I think there are always... there are things that I worry about that I like you people are thinking about and you might have people that bring up, you know other groups we have to worry about which we do. We have to worry about everybody. So there are lots to be done, but little steps, do positive things, little steps and see where it goes. |
| [14,29] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [14,30] Patrick: I'd like to see... well of course coming from, living in the North where there's a larger segment of the population that's First Nations ancestry, you get use to having more First Nations students. I'd like to see more First Nations students. I mean it's important to have people hired in First Nations Studies, we had an one person program, so those are all positive kind of steps. I think it would be positive if there was... even though a lot of the courses are offered in other departments, and professors have limited time, they are always doing too many things. But it would be positive if they, if people were teaching courses that are dealing with First Nations content if they somehow met together or work together a little bit, or coordinated what they're offerings are with the goal of either having a little bit more coherent program or what are the areas that need to be developed or just the discussions around that to feel that they're involved in the same enterprise a little bit. You get people being divided by their disciplinary boundaries so they don't see each other that often. I see people in History or Linguistics or I always see people in Anthropology because I'm in Anthropology. I think it'd be positive if there are a little more of that. I think it can benefit First Nations students. |
| [14,31] It was interesting for me just to be on the search committee for the First Nations Studies people this year. Partly because you realize your own interest sometimes, just mostly from having been in First Nations communities and kind of knowing what people's interest are there, your interest start to get influenced. You kind of see different what First Nations scholars are doing and you see even people in different disciplines and you think, "Yeah they got a lot of overlap... things I'm kind of interested in, they come at it from a different perspective but there's actually quite a bit of overlap there." Which is kind of nice if you think about it. So maybe as the program develops, there may be opportunities for more coordination and hopefully we'll get some more students. I realize that UBC is an alienating place, not just for First Nations students, for people from the rural areas, people coming from the Yukon. They experience a lot of problems like coming here, people were not First Nations background as well... the large class that's just the size of UBC and impersonal nature of it, so I've known students here, white Yukoners... just dropped out and went to some place smaller, like UVic or UNBC or back to Yukon College. And they... we tried to do, the university tries to do some things to help people to make transition here, but when your basic experience in these large classes is kind of... it's not a great place. You really have to make your own friends. Or you can feel like you are overwhelmed for a while. |
| [14,32] Karrmen: That's kind of the end of my script, I'm just wondering there's anything that you wanted to say that I haven't asked you yet. |
| [14,33] Patrick: Can't think of too much, you have a pretty good script. So far as in the university... so I thought of another thing that I've done in class that's a good thing to do. One of the things that can often be a challenge is getting...first of all, getting outside speakers to talk about certain issues that you want people to address. I've had people come, but you can't always say, get so and so on a certain date, especially with somebody from way out of town or you want to talk about a certain issue. I have had people come down and talk but you have to catch them when they are coming to town anyway. So one of the things I made use of is video, to have people that I videotape. Another tricky part there is when you're dealing with certain issues... like one of the issues that we deal with in one of my courses is land claims and people have different views of land claims. Partly you can do this in readings and there are people who write about these. But it's really use to hear people really talking about land claims. And it's one these issues where you don't want to put yourself in position of being an expert because it's not your land claims. They're worrying about land claims, either they like it or they don't like it, so you want people be able to put their... |
| [14,34] ...so I had this video that we done in one of our Kaska language classes and it was a Kaska elder who's talking about land claims and a really moving discussion about what the land means to him and all his experiences on the land. And it's all in Kaska. I'd never done subtitles for it, I never had time, I just had it from the summer. So the first time I went to use it, my Kaska is pretty good so I did simultaneous translations. And it was good because you had the direct experience like of having him there almost. He was talking about a lot of important issues, it's very accessible to a lot of people, current. Because I got to do the interpretation, I still felt that I had my contribution so that was a successful there, use of video. Of course it's not totally reproducible, because you can't always translate for everybody, you might have something you do in English. But it served for the kind of thing if you thought about it and had time do a good job in recording things on video or having things. We have similar things things like the website project we did for Doig River where people are talking about things that's on the website as video as streaming video. But I think this was especially good because part of the performance, like having translator there as well. So it was good. |
|
Coll Thrush |
| [15,1] Karrmen: So how satisfied are you with the level of discussion around Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classes? |
| [15,2] Coll: I suppose for me, it's a little difficult to tell campus wide what's actually going on. In terms of my own classes... I guess I'm continuingly impressed, impressed might be an optimistic way of saying it, at the degree to which people come into classes with really outdated ideas about Aboriginal people. Things that, coming from the United States which is where I am from and where I was trained, I expected Canada to be more sophisticated somehow. I find students coming into my classes at the 300 level, which is where our introductory Aboriginal history courses are with a very little knowledge or their knowledge being so superficial or stereotypical about who Aboriginal people are or what Aboriginal history is about. So for example questions like, "aren't the M�tis just half French and half Indian?" You know questions like that at one level, bless them for asking that out loud so we have a teachable moment. But it means something isn't happening by the time they are getting to me to an upper division university course. There are some really basic things like the idea of, "no, we don't really talk about entire nations was being warlike," or that there's more to Aboriginal history than alcoholism or... |
| [15,3] ...things like that that people are coming with really rudimentary levels of knowledge. So it's pretty clear that what happens in my course is that in addition to trying to talk about postcolonial theory or to critique notions of Aboriginality and modernity or all these fairly sophisticated that some students are prepare to do, I'm still doing a lot of remedial, "Native peoples are not all the same." There's some really remedial stuff that I'm having to do. And I think that probably one of the biggest challenges for the discussions is that people are at such different levels. Because I also have Aboriginal students in the class and even with those students there's this real diversity. There are some who are politically active, they're First Nations Studies majors or they come from the Institute for Indigenous Governance or whatever and they are ready to go. What I find is that they often know very little about anything outside of Canada. They are much more familiar with the Canadian story. But there are also a lot of students who have Aboriginal heritage and don't know the first thing about what that means. They grew up in the city or maybe they found out in grade 12 that they are M�tis or they... |
| [15,4] ...they don't have access to history because they grew up in the same school as everyone else did so they don't know very much about it as well. So even within the Aboriginal student population I find a real diversity and I think that's the most difficult thing. There's no way to avoid teaching down to some people and teaching over to some people's heads. Both those things are happening because you have such a diversity. |
| [15,5] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [15,6] Coll: I think for me the most difficult thing for me as an educator is to strike a balance between acknowledging and explaining the traumas of colonialism without traumatizing the students in the room who are the inheritors of that. So for example, how do I talk about sexual abuse in the residential schools in my classes in a way that witnesses the truth, that does the truth telling for the students, and I'm continually shocked that the number of students that have not heard about this, like "where have you been?" So that's really critical, that we acknowledge that this happened and we give testimony that these things happened. But how do I do that in a way that doesn't re-traumatize the students to whose parents that these things happened. Who are from communities where everyone in the community experienced these kinds of things and I often will end up with these students in my office... very upset, having a really, really hard time. You know those conversations I always say, "Is there something I can be doing differently? Because I don't like... that you are having this experience... |
| [15,7] ...so what can I be doing differently?" And invariably, these students will say "no because people need to know about this. But it's just really hard." Because for some of them, this is the first time that these things maybe have been discussed openly in a classroom setting unless they are in one of the First Nations programs. So it's really um... it's really difficult to find that balance because there are these... there are pressures from different students, in particular I've had some students who fancy themselves as activist who are non-Aboriginal and they really want me to just go on and on and on at great length about sexual abuse. They want sexual abuse advisors in the classroom talking about what was done to them and this kind of thing. And I've had to just really say, "You know... this class is also about survival. This class is about people adapting, it's not just about us marinating in oppression constantly." I've really tried to encourage those students to think about why it is that they feel so compelled to have that in the classroom and to think about the effects that kind of pedagogy you might have on the Aboriginal students. Because I think that's fine if you want to have this sort of theater of oppression in the classroom to satisfy your own political agenda. |
| [15,8] But we need to be really aware of what effect that has on the students whose lives are affected by this. All of this makes it really difficult for me to deal with the students who don't take the class seriously. You know the students who are on Facebook, and just are not paying attention and I'm not above using a little bit of guilt and shame to remind those students that the things we are talking about are not just disembodied stuff. These are serious things and by not paying attention to me or to the class, you are not only disrespecting me, you are disrespecting your peers, you're disrespecting the communities to whom these things happened. And that tends to work. People start paying attention when they realize these things are real. But trying to find the balance for me is really difficult, between how do we witness genocide, how do we speak the truth about that stuff without causing undue harm in the classroom. Because it is really clear that the burdens are born very differently by the students in the classroom depending on their heritage right? Their personal and family histories. |
| [15,9] Karrmen: So have you had experiences in the classroom that you found to be particularly memorable? |
| [15,10] Coll: Well I think to go back to for example the residential school question... you know it so dominates what we end up talking about... I think for me it's really important to create a place in which students can speak from their own histories, their own families' histories, Aboriginal or otherwise. But I also don't... I try to really create an environment in which the expectation is not that people have to do that. People can feel free to be quiet if they want or speak in more abstract ways. But I have to say that it's been very powerful for me as a non-Aboriginal academic to be talking about some history. So for example, people being punished corporately for speaking their language in the schools. At some level I think there's a population of student body that thinks "Oh that's just a liberal professor just going on about something," but then when I have a student that said, "oh yeah that happened to my mom." That's an incredibly powerful thing. Because then I find myself wanting to say, "See I'm not making this up! I'm not just a guilty white liberal." This stuff actually really happened, and so creating a space in which students can feel safe enough to offer those kinds of insights but placing absolutely no expectation that they would do that. |
| [15,11] I've then had these really memorable experiences where these students do feel comfortable saying, "Oh yeah this is how it works on my reserve," or a student saying in a discussion group, "You know it's really difficult for me as a parent, I don't know how to parent because my parents didn't know how to parent because their parents didn't know how to parent because we are all taken away from each other." And to have students, again, give witness to that experience is really powerful. But again it's... I think there's a tendency to expect the Aboriginal students to perform that kind of work in the classroom and I think that's really dangerous for us as educators to expect that Native students should play that role. Because that's not their responsibility, it's their choice. And to create a space where they can do that if they want, but again... the burdens are so imbalanced in the classroom. I think too in terms of memorable experiences for me it's when non-Aboriginal students start asking questions like "How do I find out whose land I live on? Whose territory... my hometown... |
| [15,12] Whose territory is that? Has it been ceded by treaty or not? What's going on there?" It's when non-Aboriginal students start actually asking the political questions about their own embeddedness in the realities of Aboriginal history that's where I think things really start to shift for me. That's some of the most memorable stuff is when people start understanding that this is real. I guess that's what pulls all these things together when people start understanding that this is not just disembodied history in a book. We are living in this right now. We are marinating in this history. |
| [15,13] Karrmen: So when you were talking about kind of those situations in class, did you have any... were there any specific challenging situations or stories you have about something that happened in a class that kind of stuck with you... that you might want to talk about? |
| [15,14] Coll: I think some of the thorniest or most difficult situations for me in classes have come actually from students who are not Aboriginal and who identify as activists. And the role that they're playing in the classroom um... where again I think there's this interest in constantly talking about oppression to the extent that it shuts down Aboriginal people's ability to have actually some semblance of control in their lives in the historical record. So when we were talking about the Native people um... For example, on the prairies when we are looking at Native communities who are actively seeking some sort of legal protections through treaties and things like this since the beginning of the 20th century, it becomes very difficult for those students... those sort of activists to that as anything but collaboration. And what that means is that we get into these funny discussions in the classroom where people are either victims or collaborators that those are the only two options for Native people in the context of colonialism. The other thing that I find we often get into and I spend a lot of time teaching against is the whole discourse of authenticity. Where we get into these discussions of which Native people are more authentic than others. |
| [15,15] If I had any really explicit agenda in my classrooms, it's to show a real diversity of Aboriginal reactions to colonialism and to show that there are have always been many, many, many ways of being Indigenous in North America and that there's not one way to do it. That cultural change does not mean cultural decline necessarily. That it's very complicated and the reason that I do that is because that I think a lot of times students who um... who are trying to find their own identities as Aboriginal people in the classroom I think sometimes are holding themselves up to this standard of authenticity. It's a very self-defeating kind of thing. They just never feel real enough as Native people. So to see Native people throughout North American history struggling with those same questions and same... and it's perfectly okay to have these sort of mixed up confused identities because we all kind of have these mixed up confused identities. It allows Native students to see themselves in the story. Because I think... I mean this is one of the side effects of colonialism right? Is that all of us are infected by these ideas about authenticity and things because we are all being educated in the same colonial system where the only way to be Native is to be in the past, to be really Indigenous you should probably be dead, you should be something of the past. So to show people responding to these really creative ways to colonialism... again telling that story... |
| [15,16] ...the tendency is to sometimes down play the oppression that's really real. So also again it's finding the balance between the two. I think something else I struggle... I think the most pervasive problem in the classroom though is the silence that's there. All the unspoken stuff that I wish there was a way for people... You know it's the questions that people know are bad questions, and stupid questions, but they need to be asked but they know that they can't ask them. I really wish they could because then we could talk about them and move on to the next phase. Because I still sometimes feel even at the end of the year-long course, those questions are still there in people's minds, like, yeah, "Why are Indians so screwed up?" Because I have just assumed from the beginning that that's kind of a wrong-headed question but it's still out there, it's still out there in the heads in some of the students. It's really difficult because these issues are so intense, and are so um... hurtful. I suppose, for everybody. I mean this is such scary stuff to talk about there's so much that goes unsaid in the classroom... there's this whole subterranean thing going on that we almost cannot make visible in the classroom and I wish there were some way to do that. I wish there were some ways to make them more visible, in a way that felt safe for everyone. But I'm not sure how we'd do that, which again speaks to how rudimentary the knowledge is that people are coming to classes with. |
| [15,17] Karrmen: Maybe in thinking about in particular incidents you've had in classrooms, have you had other experiences that have been better or worse? Say in encounters with students, in a specific class meeting, but things that you've seen or were part of or that you thought were better or worse. |
| [15,18] Coll: It's funny how difficult it is to come up with specifics. You know it really is.... Especially the end of the year... it's like this big blur. |
| [15,19] Karrmen: Well if you can't think about any... No worries. |
| [15,20] Coll: As we keep on talking maybe something will come up. |
| [15,21] Karrmen: Are there particular approaches or techniques that you have found effective in working with some of these difficult situations? |
| [15,22] Coll: Yeah, I think one of my primary strategies, it is just partly as rhetorical strategies as I'm talking in class, but it kind of undergirds the whole structure of the courses, um... is to be very clear that my belief is that this is our history, right? It's whether we are Musqueam or Chinese Canadian, or whatever or an American immigrant; we are all embedded in this history that we all have responsibility for this history. You know Lee Maracle has written some very powerful stuff about how, you know, "I've worked hard enough for you guys. It's now your responsibility to speak out against racism and to take some responsibility." And that's really I think for me the goal of my courses, is to get non-Aboriginal students to take some responsibility for what we might call privilege or for understanding how this does shape their lives, whether they like it or not, they are part of the story and that they have responsibility to it and that it's not just Aboriginal people's responsibility to be constantly harping on this. So one strategy that I have used that becomes part of the exam in one of my classes it's the very official sounding, "What's up with that?" |
| [15,23] And it's an essay in which they choose one of four questions, and these are all questions that I've been asked by family members or at social functions or whatever, you know. So "What's up with that? Do Native people just want to live in the past? Why do they keep on going back over to this stuff? It's time to move on, that was so long ago." You know and so those questions that are kind of like that which are often really wrong-headed questions but they were often really genuinely felt questions. So they choose one of those kinds of questions to respond to and they respond in everyday language using historical examples to talk about how we use history. To answer these kinds of questions it's because what I find happening is the students sort of get the bug and these are non-Aboriginal as well as Aboriginal students, they start getting angry about the ignorance that's out there. You know, their roommate ask them really stupid questions and they want to start becoming advocates for these issues but that's a very scary thing for everybody. So this, within the context of the class provides an opportunity for them to begin to articulate a bit of a voice. Not necessary on behalf of Native people, that's not the goal is to turn non-Aboriginal people into spokespeople for Aboriginal people but to turn them into advocates for why we need understand this history and why we need to take Aboriginal issue seriously and so on. |
| [15,24] And so trying to create those kinds of, you know, I suppose it's open to accusations of not being objective, but I am really trying to encourage students to be able to then to take this stuff in the classroom and take it out into the world and do work with it because this isn't in a vacuum, particularly here in British Columbia. So that's one concrete example of a strategy that I use where students are actually marshalling historical evidence to make, to have normal human conversations around really controversial issues and that I think can be really empowering because then students realize, "Wow I do know something, I do have some body of knowledge that other people don't have." So they sort of get the gospel and they start sharing it. So that's one strategy that I use and then throughout the course I just really, really emphasize the ways in which the presence of Aboriginal people have transformed settler societies and try to really get across, in many ways throughout a course, the ways in which everything we know here is made possible because of this history. Everything we know in a place like British Columbia, the way we live today is made possible because of Aboriginal history, even if it doesn't seem like it. All you have to do is go back far enough. |
| [15,25] It's enough steps removed and there's something about colonialism there. So helping students make those leaps works really well I think. And again this is pretty... I keep coming up with these abstract things, but I'm also trying to think of... I find I use a lot of humor also in my classes and that's a risky thing and I have yet to get really badly burned doing that. But I also find even basic things like knowing students names, I'm kind of shocked to the extent to which faculty sometimes don't bother to learn who their students are in meaningful ways and I tend to spend a lot of time doing that in the beginning of the course. I ask people to send me short little biographical things and allow them try to identify themselves however they like, whatever their background might be with the issues that we were talking about in the class which allows people to identify their ethnic heritage or not if they don't want to. But it gives me a sense of who's in the room. And I think... I can't speak to the extent to which other faculty do that, but I don't know how I would function in the classroom without actually knowing some of that. That's a really top priority is getting to know who these students are as individuals and I think in a place like UBC that's often really difficult to do and it's not made a priority. The introductory courses it's harder to do that because there are more people but if you make that a priority then... I think it goes a long way because people feel safe. They feel like they actually matter. |
| [15,26] Karrmen: So what do you think contribute to the success of say that kind of strategy or any of the other ones you've talked about? |
| [15,27] Coll: Well I think... there's a couple things that make it successful in my classes and again it's really hard for me to access what it is that makes this stuff work. I'm still figuring that out, seems fairly early in my career, but one is that I think I'm really enthusiastic about the subject at the same time that I'm really pretty clear about how... I'm pretty fierce about how important this stuff is and how controversial it is and how the dark side of it like I'm very frank about that. But I also... it's just so interesting at one level, so I just find it endlessly interesting, the question of colonialism and how did we get into this mess and is there a way out of it and this kind of stuff. I just find that endlessly fascinating, so that enthusiasm I think really comes across and it rubs off on students. So I think that's one thing that works. But again, you know my approach is really a holistic approach. I really want to let students see themselves in the story whether that as an Aboriginal person or as a person in settler society. I want them to understand... I want this to sink in for them and in really meaningful ways because that's what it's done for me personally. And I think modeling that kind of holistic, you know "whole student" approach which maybe, I know some people think it's too touchy-feely and whatever... |
| [15,28] ...but that's what we need around this stuff I think, around these issues. We need... this is certainly how elders in communities talk about it that we need healing. I think creating a space in which students can at least access, "Wow this stuff is real, this stuff does actually have emotional content," and let them actually feel that a little bit. I think there's a lot of pressure at major research institutions to not do that, to not bring emotions into it, to not bring the whole student in. You know we are big giant university so to try to create that holistic situation in which students can actually have some sort of emotional engagement with the material; there are a lot of reasons not to do that at a place like UBC. But otherwise I'm not sure why we are doing it if we are not doing those things. I mean we are talking about cultural change here. People have to be transformed for that to happen. Was that a grandiose enough statement? |
| [15,29] Karrmen: It's a good statement. Are there things that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend trying? |
| [15,30] Coll: I find... I use to think it was a good idea to try to... my classes tend to break into small groups for discussions quite often and I use to try to really engineer that to sort of divvy up the Indians and make sure they are not all in one group. And try to engineer degrees of comfort level and experience and knowledge and perspective and all that kind of stuff. And I realized there's really no easy way to do that. And it also has the effect... just because given the demographics of the classroom of really isolating Aboriginal students from each other. When I've had students say to me, "You know would it be possible for me to switch to that other discussion group because I really feel alone in this one because you know I'm the only Aboriginal person in this group I feel that every time we talk about everything, anything everyone looks at me and I would like for there to be two or three mes in the room." So I think we have to be really cautious around any of that kind of social engineering of student interaction because I don't think... I think the only way we can do that is superficially, we really don't know. As much as we try, we really don't know that much about our students. |
| [15,31] I think given the demographics of our university, all that's going to do is to isolate Indigenous students. If we got one in each small group, then each small group focuses on that person, it's like, "Oh you are our Indian, so what do you think?" And it also lets non-Aboriginal students off the hook. To have a group of... it's interesting to me how often a small group that's entirely made up of non-Aboriginal students will feel like they have nothing to talk about. I've been in situations, " Well, we don't really have anything to say." Because you're exempt from history? Because this doesn't affect you? Why? And what it comes down to is none of us is Indigenous so... you know... and I think that's the most deadly thing is to think that Indigenous people are the only people who have anything to say about this stuff and who have any responsibility for it. So I think that breaking up of classrooms into smaller groups based on what we perceive as identities based on ethnicity is really dangerous and actually not very productive in the long run. |
| [15,32] Karrmen: So how long have you been teaching here? |
| [15,33] Coll: This, I just finished my third year at UBC. Before that I taught in environmental studies in the University of Washington in Seattle. |
| [15,34] Karrmen: Was it also in this subject area? |
| [15,35] Coll: I taught environment studies and some Indigenous studies as well especially around the resource conflict stuff and in the context of environmental history, which by definition all environmental history is Aboriginal history in North America. But coming to a university like UBC it's like night and day. University of Washington is like a pure institution in many ways, but in terms of the way Aboriginal issues are dealt with... it's like night and day. This university is so far ahead in many ways, which gives a sense of how far we all have to go. You know the amount of attention paid to these issues here, the potential here is really pretty remarkable. And I think it's going to continue to get better. |
| [15,36] Karrmen: So I guess... I don't know if this is a fair question but I'm going to try it. Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment? |
| [15,37] Coll: It's hard for me to know. Again having to spend here three years, I mean I know personally I'm starting to figure things out to figure what works a little bit better every year. It does seem like it's starting to sink in, that these issues, these questions of Aboriginal history, of Aboriginal issues, of Aboriginal students, of Aboriginal staff and faculty, that these are absolutely fundamental central issues to this institution. It's like the institution is kind of waking up to the fact that it's actually embedded into history as well. That's it's not outside of the history looking in, that it's actually part of the story and I feel like through our relationship with Musqueam you know the things that are happening in the Museum of Anthropology, the development of programs on campus. I feel like the university is finally starting to wake up from this long slumber in which it didn't think it needed to deal with these issues. You know why would it? So now I feel like there are really is tremendous potential here. In terms of in the classroom it's really hard to tell because... sometimes I feel a bit like that grade 8 band teacher, just when they start getting to play their instruments in tune, they go off to high school. Then they actually get good at playing their instruments. |
| [15,38] I kind of feel like a lot of my students, especially my non-Aboriginal students, when they leave me, they are just starting to really get it. It takes that long, this is really basic education stuff and it takes months for them to get to this stage where they feel like they can start to speak articulately about these issues or learn how to find out more or understand when they read the paper how to see through media portrayals of Aboriginal protest for example, or how to see the 2010 mascots for what they are. After a year, students are just starting to do that. So it's hard for me to see the progression over time. But for me, you know if 60 or 70 students leave me with some sort of new interest in this or with new skills or with, in the case of Aboriginal students, with bigger context for their own story, for their own history, they understand their community now in a broader story, then I think that's great. There are not that many places where that can happen. |
| [15,39] Karrmen: What do you think the university could do to provide a context for having better discussions? |
| [15,40] Coll: I think it needs more resources, curricular resources, thrown at this is. Thrown at this is probably not the right phrase. Applied thoughtfully to these issues, perhaps. For example in our department, students do not have available to them any Aboriginal-specific history courses at the 100 or 200 levels, which means that I'm getting 3rd and 4th year students who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever and that's simply because we don't have enough people in the department. You know my thought would be... I mean let's just start with Arts students, I think it should be true for everyone at the university. I think there should be a basic Aboriginal issues 101 course that's like basic education here. I don't understand how we educate future citizens of British Columbia without some, even basic knowledge, of what a treaty is or is not or the fact that BC doesn't really have many of them, or the simple fact that Aboriginal people are still here. It's the degree to which people can leave this university without knowing any of those things? I feel like if for no other reason than self-preservation... |
| [15,41] ...you know people are graduating from this university very ignorant of situations that are going to dramatically shape their lives. As we think about treaty negations or other land claims questions that are going on. These are going to affect the lives of the people that live here and they are going to be blindsided by them because we have not necessarily provided them with even the most basic of frameworks to think about how we got here. And making that happen requires a lot of resources, it requires hiring faculty to do the work, it requires hiring faculty who know how to do the work, it requires making space within the curriculum and doing it in a way where students don't feel like this is some sort of compulsory... I can see how it would be portrayed this sort of compulsory, politically correct indoctrination, all that stuff we hear in the right-wing media machine. But I think it is a basic citizenship question that students need to be able to speak to when they leave UBC. |
| [15,42] Just like they need to understand the Pacific Rim, or they need to understand the role of technology or law in our lives. And these are really basic things and so I would like to see it become, I would like us get to a place where we can offer courses that would be of service to the university as a whole as oppose to just within History or within First Nations Studies or within Anthropology. But where we can be offering basic "know where you are" kinds of courses. We assume students should graduate with some sense of environmental issues and as I've said before all environment issues in North America are Aboriginal issues so let's get that other piece in there. |
| [15,43] Karrmen: So what would you like to see happen next? |
| [15,44] Coll: I would like to see increased funding for Aboriginal initiatives on campus and by that I don't just mean faculty lines, I mean that's a big piece of it. Of course I have an interest in that as a faculty member, I'd like to have more colleagues and more colleagues in more disciplines. I would like to see a lot more... funding opportunities for people pursuing Aboriginal studies. That there be scholarships, I'd like to see funding for graduate training, I'd like to see spaces created in which measures of academic performance can take into account a very real circumstances that a lot of Aboriginal students have to deal with. Every year I have students who simply, who are homeless, I have students who are single parents and literally their kids are hungry. The university should be doing something about this. And what I find is that those students often takes them much of the year, once things start going wrong, it takes them months to access the services they need, meanwhile they've lost all kinds of time in the classroom. And the university really needs to step up for that and fill that gap somewhere. |
| [15,45] I'm not quite sure how that would work. That's not what I'm trained in, but I certainly see that in the classroom, the things that Aboriginal students are struggling to balance with their education are often really, really serious, and in some cases, life threatening issues and I don't see the university stepping in, aside from providing some counseling which only goes so far. But I don't understand why the university can't help feed somebody's kids, if that's a real priority for that person to be in school. If we think that it's great that Anishnabe woman is in school, well then why not have something in place so that woman's kids can eat and then she can actually focus on her education. So I think again it's this question of holistic, if this university is going to engage in anything that can be even remotely called decolonizing work and I'm not sure if that can be ever be true, then we have to... these are not just students who happen to be Aboriginal, they are really real students services that need to be in place, aside from just creating cultural space on campus, which is great. Thank god we got the Longhouse, most places don't have that, but there's more. |
| [15,46] Karrmen: At the end of my interview script, I was wondering if there's anything you wanted to add, anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about. |
| [15,47] Coll: I don't think so. I think I've blabbed on enough. But I mean I'm really glad that this study is happening and that it seems to be getting some attention. Again I think there's such a long way to go but I think UBC has a lot of opportunity, a lot of potential and the thing I always try to remind myself and remind my students and classes is that the changes that are happening whether it's the treaty process, or the resurgence of Aboriginal sovereignty, or Museums of Anthropology's relationship with the communities that it claims to represent and so on. Those things are changing so dramatically; I mean if you go back 20 years ago, none of this was in place. I always try to remember that this is all happening very quickly, we've come a long way in a very short time even if it feels like we have a million miles to go still, things are happening, things are changing. |
| [15,48] Karrmen: I mean that's a better way to think about it, what's an alternative? |
| [15,49] Coll: I just think about it in terms of where things were 50 years ago or 100 years ago. |
| [15,50] Karrmen: It's only been like 50 years since Aboriginal people were allowed in university, 50 that's all. |
| [15,51] Coll: That's the other thing I find myself having to remind the lefty, "all oppression all the time" students that are in classes. I find myself in this funny position of being an apologist for like that's how I'm being perceived, that I'm trying to whitewash colonialism by saying things can get better... it's actually an activist impulse that things can get better, we are doing work, things are happening, aside from just sitting around from talking about race, class, gender, oppression, but it's like... now what? And it's interesting that I tend not to hear... I don't hear that so much from my students who are Aboriginal, they are much more interested in the applied - how can I get the skills I need to go out to do the stuff I needed to do as opposed to critiquing discourses of masculinity. A lot of the time I'm like, "yeah, I know." Like, "lived it, done it." |
|
Alannah Young |
| [16,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion around Aboriginal issues that you have encountered for instance in classes or in your work place or... |
| [16,2] Alannah: I think I've been really lucky in terms of having the choice to research the kinds of classes I would be involved in. So um... which isn't a something that most students get to have when they come. So you're subjected to and I was subjected to kind of sterile class environments where there wasn't really any Aboriginal content so general... unless it says "First Nations" or "Aboriginal" or "Indigenous" in the title, or then it's not there. So that would be like a one. So that's... having said that then um... the ones that do have Aboriginal content or First Nations content... if it's an Aboriginal teacher, the discussions are better because you are not working from deficit. So people talking about life experiences and being able to engage with Indigenous knowledge principles, protocols, those kinds of things. That's where discussions are a lot more satisfying and where you actually learn things. So um... the deficit model is a problem across the board because you are constantly having to work with "what is the Indian Act?" for example and then I notice there's usually a trend where, one, people feel defensive because they don't know that part of the history so people kind of go into this denial or outrage, and so then it becomes more about those particular people and sometimes even the instructor would, there's a lot of deflecting. |
| [16,3] People aren't comfortable with saying what they don't know. So that's a kind of a skill. I've seen conversations go about people's guilt, about... because of their lack of knowledge of what happens so rather than talking about what can we do or you know maybe even asking for more Aboriginal content, taught by Aboriginal people, that would help. Strategies to ally-built would be a good way to go. But... so a lot of time, sometimes gets wasted dealing with that how people's feelings around not having this knowledge. And I'm also involved in leadership, developing leadership on campus and I really noticed that if we're espousing this sort of top academic institutions and you know people engaging on the international level, not knowing their history is a big blight. It's not like the colonial project hasn't been everywhere in the world, it's a pretty constant trend about oppression and the fallout especially to do with the land and resource management. So that's problematic. On the other hand, I do see more, well now there's a First Nations Studies Program, which is fairly new. So that's encouraging and to be able to start engaging in more appropriate research at the undergraduate level is really encouraging as well. Hiring more staff would be helpful so that... And then on the other hand, once you do have more Indigenous staff or faculty, they often get relegated to, "oh, that's First Nations, you deal with it," rather than it be... |
| [16,4] ...where everybody is knowing the same kinds of knowledge, at least the baseline so that more people are informed about their histories and more appropriate methods of educating and working with community and particularly the environment. I like this new term called "eco-cide," trying to always look for strategies of how to engage with people um... that it's not this add-on model that's going to work for people. So that's what I see happening, is the ghettoization kind of model on how to deal with the Aboriginal issue or it's presented in class often like multiculturalism, maybe equity and it's seen as an add-on, or sensitivity, touchy...don't go too near it with a 10-foot pole or something like that is kind of how I see reactions in classes. So doing, interviewing people like you are doing here to educate more people on how to work with the issues is really important. Yeah... that's all I can think of at the moment. Um... although I can think of just conversations that I've had in the last couple of years especially people having problems I think with stereotype but also different learners, learning styles, so for example people learning better by doing which is a common theme that I see and teachers not understanding what it is they are seeing and kind of judge or have the students be considered a slow learner or can't learn math or...things like this stereotype happens or may be they come from a deficit family or social situation or something like that. |
| [16,5] And on the other hand, on the other end of the spectrum, there are some accommodations where there are real learning disabilities so to speak that teachers aren't equipped to deal with in terms of their accommodation or being able to assist and the university being able to assist them with getting the appropriate testing, so testing is like a thousand dollars and if you are a student, that's out of the question so that's a real problem that I see on both ends of that particular issue. I've seen students have to not complete because of those situations so that's um... needs some work um... and it's not just particular to Aboriginal students on this accommodation level, but then also um... yeah so there's a big gap there. So when I do get into a class that is taught by Aboriginal scholars or at least people who have been in the area for a long time who understand the nuances of protocol, or maybe that's not the best word, bur working with Indigenous principles so looking at the land and recognizing that history is important, genealogy within the community and also with your responsibilities to the earth and the stories, those kind of engaging in that work is really, really good and I really see that the students, the faculty is overloaded so having to turn students away you know... so that's a problem. So where for example I came into the university in an Arts degree and needed because the Aboriginal scholars that I wanted to work with were in Education... |
| [16,6] ...I took the courses as unclassified so that was a way I could decided who were the most like-minded scholars and who could be on my committee and then move in to that faculty just because I had all the requirements already just by going unclassified. So that took a long time to research that piece. I don't really know what could be done about that other than to people's demands are already really stretched thin but maybe if there was more of an orientation or, certificate programs are on the rise and different cohort models are coming in for people who work and are able to do the studies on the weekend, in the summer so that's helpful I think to students to find the right fit I guess. Orientation would be ideal in terms of I don't know if there is such a thing where... I guess it would be under recruitment or else maybe some sort of video, maybe such as this where people could use how people's different stories how they got through university and what to look for and who are good like-minded places and perhaps, I know the library is doing some really good things although access is a problem, like online access to be able to access materials that might be useful for them or considering that. Yeah. |
| [16,7] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspect of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [16,8] Alannah: In plain language, the difference between book knowledge and then being, experiencing with community and so outside of the university context is really hard I think for a lot of people, especially if they built their whole career on... building on existing knowledge or book knowledge. That is problematic in terms of the institution's perpetuation of certain ways of thinking and without critiquing their own cultural histories or genealogies and how that informs what it is that gets written down. And then the whole problem of these "informants", these "cultural informants", who have particular kinds of knowledge maybe that are one, influenced by needing to get some money...maybe out of like how do you say... social etiquette want to guess at what the person wants to hear and that gets written down and thought of as the only way or "the" way um... so that doesn't come through the paper so I think it would have been helpful and I guess people being educated more these days are being asked to do that, to critique their own biases so that's been difficult, is difficult and again, people usually feel defensive, it's a whole skill set to be able to facilitate discussion I think and I've heard people say a lot of professors are experts in the way that they... |
| [16,9] ..."expert" meaning they gone through the whole process that I've just talked about and not been able to access good teaching. So how do you facilitate more knowledge production other than outside the small parameters that they've learnt and I realize that time is an issue so there's not a lot of motivation there it seems or maybe incentive? And I'm not sure what the university could do to get people or teachers to expand their range of teaching or maybe it's a professional development requirement that could be implemented so that's a problem. I think what I've heard is people at college levels or teachers at college levels have some level of teaching training so... yeah... that's one of the hardest, especially, so not only the content and the methodology so that's kind of speaking to that but also how do you facilitate good discussion, what are the earmarks of what Indigenous knowledge looks like, so I talked about working with the land through the stories, what are the principles, not so much the actual processes, because most people seem to think that the cultural ongoings of the community really don't need to be in the university because it has to do with community business and so... and that's fair enough but in terms of advocacy building and ally-building what are the main principles, so having teachers being the community as an advocate or allies learning with is something that is seen as beyond the role of teaching. |
| [16,10] One example that I thought was really cool was one where in a remoter community where someone has gone up to teach and it was two Aboriginal students or teachers who'd gone to the community, new community, showed up for school and nobody was there because everybody was out fishing. So going... so for them it was like, "okay, let's go to the fishing grounds then." Got right in there and modified their curriculum to fit the context, so that was a successful endeavor. Had they not had that orientation, then that... I mean you are taught not to get too involved so then that's kind of a place where it's not very easily reconciled so I guess its up to the individual to figure out what are the educational outcomes, what is education anyway so those kinds of questions and to be able to adjust according to the needs of the students or community. |
| [16,11] Karrmen: Have you...has there been any situations or incidents or experiences that you've had when you were a student or now as in a professional role that have been particularly memorable? |
| [16,12] Alannah: Hmm... Well I can think of one that was... uh, difficult I guess you would say. So there was uh...a student...S o this was a really difficult situation as a staff or mediating or people who want to be allies and yet aren't able to listen... And it was really difficult because you are taught to assert yourself and help out and kind of like take over in a way to show leadership, let's say, and yet that wasn't fitting the context, so trying to lead the ceremonies and do their own ceremonies, so that was a really, really hard because there was other relationships going on as well with elders who are also part of this community, and that was a particularly difficult situation, which we basically had to wait out for this student to graduate and really try to mediate what would fall under...like if we were going to use this in, people feeling harassed for example it kind of borderlined there, so it's not the intent of the person who's seen to having more power or being more assertive, it was more the effect so that was the equity model that we're having to use. So addressing the effect not really hearing that effect so it was very difficult so it became more of a personality thing but I can see that people well meaning to help facilitate, um... I guess cultural reclamations because people are often shy and learn by doing so being able to give jobs I guess particular jobs and being able... |
| [16,13] ...that actually a leader is also a follower, right, so that's really um... part of the learning. So you know people don't feel heard about what they know from those particular communities and so I just simple skills like saying, repeating what the students' knowledges are and they are contributing to the class and having them to stand up and say, "you know, we have a similar thing in our culture," and so having to really strategize around how do... validate students' knowledge it might not be the particular knowledge whether it's speaking about or if this was read in a book. So when people aren't validated for the contributions, particularly if it had to do with what they know, that's really... doesn't help the learning process. So yeah, that's an ongoing dynamic that really could be facilitated really easily I think you know, but that isn't for some reason and I don't know if again it's the lack of critiquing your own biases towards particular students because of the way they look or their color or the way they talk. Yeah... so that's always, on one hand you are expected to demonstrate and almost create new language for old concepts so that would be a useful thing to impart to people because I know as a student, you are engaging with these ideas, new words for old concepts and most of the people in the community or in the family they just sort of... their eyes gloss over, or "there they are just doing that high level talk" type of thing. |
| [16,14] So you know I guess not to lose sight of that actual theory stuff, the outcome is suppose to be around the practice, how to engage with community and spread the leadership skills around rather than being the lead hierarchy types of things so to be able to understand that, or at least to have it weave through the courses, it's not a either/or, we need an and/and approach. |
| [16,15] Karrmen: So in those situations, the difficult situations you talked about, so am I right that the first one you spoke about it was there was a couple of people involved being domineering in certain kind of cultural events, is that how that was playing out? |
| [16,16] Alannah: Yeah, and it's easily transferable into the classroom you know. The context was more in terms of supporting the student's wellness and interest. It was a painful one that I know that happens in class as well so people yeah... it's a hard one. People kind of taking a more competitive approach to engaging in material as the lead, but clearly they're not an expert in that area. It's a difficult one because you need to have both skills. You know that's a hard one to know how to negotiate. |
| [16,17] Karrmen: So at the time, well in any of these difficult situations, how did you respond to the situations at the time they were happening? For instance in classes where students weren't being acknowledged or in this circumstance where you got that difficult negotiation? |
| [16,18] Alannah: Yeah and it's particularly difficult when this is a required course, right? Like you don't have a choice in order to graduate, you have to get by this particular, say, teacher who has difficult biases going on, usually they are multilayered so you know being able to facilitate flexibility around required courses is really important for cases like that so students don't really have much recourse other than to document, they could go to the Equity Office and it's always a management around time, how much time it's going to take to deal with this you know because you only have so much time so it's important to address it. So documenting it is important. What I ask students and have done is start to take a tally around how many times they are doing the inappropriate behavior or how many times do the teachers engage in gender, for example, how many times do they go to a male student, a female student, how many times did they say the inappropriate phrase and then document the impact particularly around it because it's very really hard to address people's behavior so you have to learn how to document word-for-word and then the effect. So I have an ongoing documentation of this and at the end of the class particularly if you have to take that class, documented in the skits, because presumably the Dean sees that and it doesn't affect your mark. |
| [16,19] So that's kind of the only real recourse, they use to have a listing of all the skits on particular professors and I went there the other week to get it because I have been seeing more of this kind of behavior where students are trapped with no choice about getting through particular courses and that's not available anymore. That's a useful tool to be able to have access to that information so more around accountability so I hope that that's somewhere is still going to be available to people as a public document. So that's what's happened there. Yeah... mostly people will withdraw and just engage at the bare minimum level so that's unfortunate. Yeah... that's a loss. |
| [16,20] Karrmen: Have you had any experiences that have been notably better or worse than the ones you've talked about? |
| [16,21] Alannah: Notably better... |
| [16,22] Karrmen: Or worse... |
| [16,23] Alannah: Um... well I guess Humanities 101 working with Musqueam community and that model, you know the community people are seen as the experts and asking the university community to come and present and basically they get questioned, and I've heard that those are really good dialogues that go on. And having the Musqueam language being available to students and community I think that's been a really great initiative. So switching the models of learning that's kind of how I see that. What else. Well... um... having the Indigenous Academic Caucus is a good start. They are where people engage with appropriate methodology and protocols around how we work both within the institution and outside. Um... yeah so I think right now, I'm thinking about the problems of you know you start building up your advocacy, say, with one president and then they're gone in five years and usually take three years to build that up. So that's, and then with directors and so that's... it feels a bit like a hamster wheel where you have to start over again and you lose ground. Um... yeah. Hmmm um... of course the youth programs are great. |
| [16,24] They are working more with like I think of the drum and the song and the teaching, everybody has teachings around that and how do you move or shift the paradigm from it being a kind of the stories as being myths to Indigenous knowledge to what's seen as sort of tourist to like the dances or the add-on kind of model that's really the biggest challenge that I can think of. But people are ingenious; they find ways to work with that especially in the Faculty of Education. I suspect it's pretty hard to maintain any ground in any other faculties if you are sort of the token person over there so providing a network opportunities it seems really important. Yeah. |
| [16,25] Karrmen: Are there any approaches or techniques that you've found particularity effective in dealing with difficult situations? |
| [16,26] Alannah: Um...techniques, well I guess recognizing what you are seeing so when people talk about, you know, so someone offers a perspective that doesn't line up with the teacher's perspective being able to encourage more of that dialogue is, role model that rather than discounting, so other students getting up and saying... it's similar in my culture and so rather than parroting back what the person is saying. Recognizing that these perspectives contribute to the knowledge process so that's really important to recognize that. And yeah so that's the one that's coming to my mind. Let me just see if there is any other things I can think of here... Oh yeah, so here was a good response that I got from someone, checking what mechanisms do the teachers have that ensure their cultural information that they present is current. So what are the ongoing relationships that they are engaged with, that's a good measure. Um... and what do they contribute back to the communities that they're talking about or in what ways do they do that so that students can figure out ways that they can also give back to different communities whether that's through scholarships or royalties or through books they write or whatever that kind of thing. |
| [16,27] There's no real rule to that but just to kind of think about that reciprocity piece. Yeah... that's an important check. Yeah... let's see. That's all I can think of right now. |
| [16,28] Karrmen: What do you think contributes to the success to those kinds of techniques? |
| [16,29] Alannah: Say that again? |
| [16,30] Karrmen: For instance, that recognition what you were talking about... What contributes to the success of that? What makes the technique successful? |
| [16,31] Alannah: I guess it demonstrates the importance of ongoing relationships. I think it contributes to the critical aspect that in critiquing your own practice and your own thoughts and updating those with the practice so recognizing well maybe I did think that because I was taught this now I'm seeing that... it could also look like that and how I'm going to show my appreciation or engage in the practice more fully is to give back in these ways and it usually say something about people's characters or their personalities so if you are interested in Arts so that it's um... reflects more of who they are I guess. So not just the academic person but the person that's a whole person. Yeah so that's what I found that what people are engaged in and how they give back tells you more about them. Yeah and whether or not that's the kind of community person you want in your circle to help remind yourself of what's important. |
| [16,32] Karrmen: Are there things you've ever tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [16,33] Alannah: Hmmm... That I wouldn't recommend... well I think of this one time, and this is an example of those like cultural approaches that one needs to navigate and I should've clued in... I gone to like an institutional setting and these were professionals who had sort of like this medical model training, they wanted to know different indicators and how to be culturally sensitive for remote communities. So I was role modeling how they might do this. Rather than saying, "Okay now you do step 1, step 2 and step 3..." I was showing them so I was...playing this particular kind cultural music because a lot of them were from this particular region, or working in this particular community. Well it just didn't go over, so knowing like I guess your audience you know but that was a real I guess a teaching skill, that I assume that they would figure it out by my demonstrating which in a lot of communities that's the way it's done. You don't stand out you kind of follow along and contribute to the process. |
| [16,34] Karrmen: So what happened? |
| [16,35] Alannah: Oh, I got real bad reviews that they didn't really get it because I wasn't explicit. I didn't address, "okay, it might be more comfortable for the clients to have some music on." It might not be though, which is fair, so... that was the situation where that didn't work out very well. Yeah... so... I guess providing options is more what I learned about being more explicit that, here's an example maybe of what music from this area and resources, so it was really more about a different context so... yet I think that if they had clued in to the role modeling of it...So anyway, I just know that's what you have to navigate. |
| [16,36] Karrmen: What do you think the university could do to provide a better context for discussions about Aboriginal issues, professional spaces or classrooms that kind of thing? |
| [16,37] Alannah: Well having the space is really important... I know in some context you know there's certain thing for staff, there's certain thing for faculty, there's certain thing for students. I think a model that most times work pretty good is having a space like this so you do... that has a lot of power in terms of "places pedagogy" so knowing where you are is very important so we are on traditional territory of Musqueam people so that's really important to know and role model that so, um... in that there's different teachings in the house posts or demonstrating inclusion and knowing who our relatives are so demonstrating respect like that, and that so if we had our Indigenous graduate symposium let's say, students who are undergrads, or staff and faculty are considered part of the community. So what sometimes difficult is because funding comes from different faculties, they want to make sure most of the participants are from particular faculties. Well Indigenous knowledge is interdisciplinary so it's really hard to do this segregated kind of model so understanding that as a basic is really important so having some flexibility there around those departmental ways of organizing. |
| [16,38] So that's a systemic thing that's often a problem. And I just want to say this before I forget...Around appropriate equity people because it seems like say as a student service here with that student service hat on, we end up doing a lot of the basic information that people really should already have. You know if we know about the history and know about where we are right now. Um... what are the I guess biases and how can we advocate so basically we kind of do other people's jobs which is not really a good use of time. Yeah... |
| [16,39] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [16,40] Alannah: Um... More training like this so I don't have to do this all the time over and over so that would be great. It would be good to have... I know lots of people talk about mandatory courses in knowing the history of Canada and you know because if you are going to be going out there with this higher learning then you should have basic survey kinds of knowledge so that's important so that's critiquing, having the critical aspect around your own genealogy seems like it would be very helpful in terms of your own direction. You are usually less likely to appropriate other people's cultures and ways of doing things. So the critical theory, knowing the history of this place and what are some practical advocacy or ally-building and reciprocity and giving back would be the four things that I can think of. Having a space that is bigger than this place because we are running out of space to facilitate the numbers so we're asking more Aboriginal students to come here and I think there's a wondering of what is really there that is going to help further my knowledge in what I want to do. So a lot of people don't come because of that. So there's a lack of spreading the knowledge in that way. |
| [16,41] So and then more support for faculty and staff, people so we could address more of the I guess one way people are talking about things is around oppression but really colonial processes which I can see and, or direct opposition to corporate sponsorship say, "I'm the in university and a lot of university's funders," so there's a direct conflict or what seen as direct conflict, so it's better to just... it seems the status quo is to not talk about that. |
| [16,42] Karrmen: Well I've kind of gone through the questions that I have and I was just wondering if there's anything we haven't touched on that you wanted to talk about or mention. |
| [16,43] Alannah: Well let me think... I mean I had a whole bunch of ideas but then I know whatever is supposed to come out. Well I really liked having international scholars come and particularly the SAGE Program looking at not only provincial but national and worldwide Indigenous cohort of knowledge, I don't know what you would call it, "appropriate knowledge production" um... so I think that was a really good vision and model that some of the Maori scholars have taught us and I think what the university could do to I guess um... help facilitate more of those kind of initiatives would be important. And to engage in more the term that comes to my mind is green, or "not eco-cide" kinds of company or corporate sponsors to help really look at that. Is knowledge for the sake of business? Or consumer? Or is it really about knowledge? So revisiting that. |
|
Heidi Hansen |
| [17,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion addressing Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classrooms? |
| [17,2] Heidi: I'm very satisfied. The particular course that I teach that's the focus of my course, so it is a lot of Aboriginal content. Students are aware of that when they do their... students are asked to do individual presentations and group presentations, and I ensure that they know that we need to bring in an Aboriginal perspective into all of their presentations. Bring in statistics, bring in community perspectives whatever it is that they are presenting on. The other thing that I do is I try to bring in a lot of guest speakers in to the classroom and it is varied from six speakers in one year to two speakers this year. And it's great because I bring in community people, I bring in elders... bring in academics and students really, really enjoy it. |
| [17,3] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspects of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [17,4] Heidi: I think at first um... what I find is I teach a thirteen week course so in the very beginning students are... a lot of the students are in the course because they are there to learn, they don't know a lot about Aboriginal issues, they are there to learn and I ensure that it is a really safe environment for them. So as we go through the term um... I try to make it safe for them, I try to make it safe for them to ask questions because a lot of them are quite ignorant on the issues and they I don't mean ignorant in a negative way. It's just they don't know all the issues and that's why they are there and it's my job to ensure that they do understand the issues and that when they leave after being in the classroom for thirteen weeks they really have a better understanding our people, the issues that we faced, um... our history and how it impacts us today and the consequences of the behaviors that they see in the community. |
| [17,5] So um... I actually just had a talk with my class around um... sort of the bittersweetness of working in community. Um... I tell them because we have this legacy of colonization and oppression of our people. It has manifested a lot of really unhealthy behaviors and what that means. It means what you are going to face... you know if you go to work in community... you could face a lot of oppression and lateral violence and so on. But I try and tell them it's not about them it's about our past and I try and get them to understand the issues and to come from a really good place and I bring in teachings to from elders that I've work with over the years um... teachings like... one elder talk to my class around um... judgment brings sickness so I brought that up a couple of times during the term just so the students would be aware of that. The other one... the other teaching that I bring up is once you say something you can never take those words back so always, always think try and think before you speak. So um... that sort of where I'm seeing the difficulties. I try to make it... there are difficult issues we do talk about but I try to make the students as aware as possible and to have some understanding and compassion because I believe that there's a saying in a book The Sacred Tree: "the heard of one that is the heard of all and the honor of one is the honor of all." I try to pass that on to them as well. |
| [17,6] Karrmen: You mentioned the classroom kind of as a wanting as a safe place. What does safe mean? |
| [17,7] Heidi: For me because um... because of the person I am I try and make it an atmosphere where it's open for discussion and learning and I don't want the students to be afraid to ask questions because it's going to be dumb questions. I want them to speak up and to ask issues and they have asked things like um... like some one of my students who was really curious about like "why is it that your people have all these benefits and what does that mean and where does that come from?" So explaining that whole process through the tree process and it's not actually benefit, it's a right in terms of our health and education and so on and she didn't know that she grew up in a community where um... most of the folks in her community understood Aboriginal people as just getting everything that they wanted and uh... it's not quite that way. So that's what I try to do. I try to make it so that they can feel safe asking questions so that they can learn from the experience and I mean another teaching that I pass on... to learn from another elders are there are no such thing as dumb question and I tell them that to... so they can just feel like it's okay to ask questions. They can ask questions in class discussions or in their journals as well. |
| [17,8] Karrmen: Have you had any experiences in the classroom that have been particularly memorable? |
| [17,9] Heidi: Yeah. Um... I mean it's been... there been some very positive memories and some very negative, not negative, I guess there are memories I think of where we can learn from each other and uh... I remember one year we're having a class discussion and one of the students um... because I encourage asking questions and she was a Canadian student and one of my other students who was an Aboriginal student took great offense at her question and challenged right away in class and that it almost started like uh... like a cat fight in the classroom and they started calling each others names and getting defensive and angry so I had to just diffuse it right away. I just you know... it started it really started in a matter of seconds and they were yelling at each other from across the room. So I just said, "you know um..." from my memory I said, "I understand that you both have your own point of views" and I said that I think it's good that you can talk about it in this classrooms and I think this is what it's about and we are here to learn from each other. |
| [17,10] And I said what I hear this student saying is this and I acknowledged her and what I hear the other student saying is this and I just reframe their questions in a different way so that they could understand it in a different way. And then it was okay, then they kind of... they both understood that um... and then I remember that one of the other students approached me after class and she went "oh I'm glad you said something there because she was getting really worried" because they were getting... they were getting quite nasty. They were just both very... they both got very defensive and it can get like that. It can get because it's people don't understand, especially our people you know I'm... I'm from two different cultures and I can... I believe that I can understand both worlds because my mother is Aboriginal and my father is German heritage. So I really try to understand both worlds and try to get the students to see it too and just see and understand the issues so that when they get out in their real world and practice that they're going to be good at whatever job they do and they are going to work with people in a really good way that honors and respects them no matter what profession they choose. |
| [17,11] Karrmen: Do you recall what the student had said that was so offensive? |
| [17,12] Heidi: You know I just can't because it happened a few years ago and I just remember her asking me a question and then the other student just took over. So I can't even remember, I just remember the friction and I remember what happened. But I can't remember the question. And I'll just talk about the positive memories that I've had too because there's been many. Like I've had students' journal in the class about their experiences about what they are learning, from their readings, from their guest speaks, from our presentations and I'm always amazed at the change that happens in a lot of our students especially those who come in who have very little knowledge of our people and their history. They usually go through a phase right about the fourth or fifth class where they are really angry and ashamed and sad and depressed because they cannot believe that these things have happened to our people and uh... so that's generally when I try to have a sharing circle and the class just debrief and talk about where everybody is and what they want to talk about. |
| [17,13] That usually comes up right around that time. So I think it's a positive thing because it's about them expressing their emotions and what they're feeling and their feeling heard and validated and acknowledged by the class. |
| [17,14] Karrmen: In relation to any of the situations that may be the one you talked a bit initially, your response in this situation at the time was to you know reframe their questions. Was there anything that might've happened differently in the class do you think that? |
| [17,15] Heidi: If I didn't intervene you mean? Oh yeah... I don't know what would've happened if I didn't intervene. I just don't know. But I felt responsible as an instructor to do something immediately because it was getting out of hand. And um... And I didn't want the other students to witness that. I didn't want there to be bad feelings because there's no need for it. You know it's just the matter of seeing another person's perspective and acknowledging and validating that even if you don't agree with it. And this is what our people always you know try to sort out with others. Is try to get them to understand the history, understand our rights, understand what we gone through so that there's just better understanding, better relationships built and so on. |
| [17,16] Karrmen: Are there particular techniques or approaches that you've used or found effective in working with situations? |
| [17,17] Heidi: Well what I do um... I try and have at least two circles every term. I'd like to have more, but it all depends because we do have to do their work. I find that it's just extremely effective because it allows everybody to share um... and we start out you know we sit in a circle, I tell them about what the circle means and how sacred it is and then I invite somebody if somebody would like to open with a prayer. And if nobody does, and I open with a prayer and we hold hands and I explain the prayer and then we sit down and we do a sharing circle and I find that very powerful. A lot of students understand where the other ones are coming from and what they are learning. And they also start... what I hear over and over again is that they go "I'm not alone in what I'm thinking and where I'm at right now." It's just... it feels good to hear other students struggling with the same things that I'm going through. |
| [17,18] It's also great because we have a lot of our... our Aboriginal students share their experiences from their home communities or how they grew up. It's just gives a better understanding to the students about the issues that are going on. And then the other thing I bring in the guest speakers I find that it's just an Aboriginal guest speaker and they talk about their life or their experiences. It just brings some sense of reality into the university life with the students. |
| [17,19] Karrmen: Are there anything that you tried that you wouldn't recommend trying? |
| [17,20] Heidi: Anything that I've tried... um... I can't think of anything. I mean you know when I first started teaching I was... certainly wasn't as experienced as I am now. And I continue to learn every year or so, I'm hoping that as I gain more experience I just learn more and to me it's just really important that the students have a better understanding and compassion like I said before when they leave the classroom. They understand about residential schools, they understand about our history and so on. |
| [17,21] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation improving here at the moment? |
| [17,22] Heidi: Improving at UBC... at the university in general? |
| [17,23] Karrmen: Yeah. |
| [17,24] Heidi: Um... you know I don't know. I mean I think it is. I guess I have more hope every year as I teach because I see a lot of students come in like I mentioned the majority of them are Canadian students, a lot of them have different cultural background. You know being born in Canada, of course we all come from somewhere else other than our people. I had a great diversity of students especially this year in terms of cultural diversity and ethnicity and what was the question again? |
| [17,25] Karrmen: If the classroom situation is improving? |
| [17,26] Heidi: So if it's improving... I think it is. I think because I think there's more and more people from my understanding that do want to understand about our people and build better relationships. I think so. Yeah. |
| [17,27] Karrmen: What might the university do to provide a better context for discussions of Aboriginal issues that are culturally or politically sensitive? |
| [17,28] Heidi: I think one of the keys is to have people who are teaching, especially our teachers, who um... are really aware of their own issues and don't get triggered and I think we need really healthy, positive Aboriginal speakers and instructors. I guess I've seen people who are unhealthy teaching and it doesn't help the students. And they come out feeling more depressed or feeling really negative or feeling that they are yelled at and blamed for what happened to our people. For me personally, I don't think that that helps anybody. So I would like to see just more coming together and building on our strengths. One of the things that a lot of my students have written about in their journals is that they wish that more students would take this course and they all also wish that there was another course offered in the other part of the term since it's only one term right now. And um... so I know they want to learn more about our people. They also want to learn more hands on experience and I think a lot of them have talked about going to communities and learning what's it really like to work in a community. So that would be a really positive thing too. |
| [17,29] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [17,30] Heidi: Next... I guess I think of one thing that use to happen at UBC and it doesn't happen anymore. But they use to have something called The Gathering at the Longhouse where they would invite UBC students and staff and faculty to come and um... and have a gathering at the Longhouse, so share meal and listen to some guest speakers. And I thought that that was a fantastic way for other students to connect and to hear of our history in the beautiful Longhouse and hear guest speakers and just get curious about the issues that are happening, how they are impacting them and how they can make a difference. Because I think we all can make a difference in our own way. Um... and I think people don't think that they can. But I believe that you can. |
| [17,31] Karrmen: I was wondering if there's anything I haven't asked you about that you want to speak about? |
| [17,32] Heidi: I guess I'm just really grateful to be an instructor and to have this opportunity to learn from the students and to have them learn from me. I really try... I really try to um... follow a lot of our elders' teachings and you know try to be true to myself, try to be as respectful as I can and I just hope that other people are that way too that we can help set aside our own issues and teach in the best possible way and get the students to understand because they are going to be our helpers in the future and we need them. Our communities can't do it on their own. We need help from other people. This is one thing that I do talk to the students about. Um... doesn't mean that you are going to go in there and take control and make change right away. I don't see it that way but I have seen wonderful change in communities from... people from different cultural backgrounds and it's because they go in a good way and they're respectful. They want to learn about the protocol and they're just genuine and people pick up on that right away. If you are not genuine, people pick up on that. If you are angry, they pick up on that. So I think that's about all I want to say. |
|
Margery Fee |
| [18,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion around the Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in the classrooms? |
| [18,2] Margery: Well, I normally teaches senior Aboriginal studies course. And so I hope I do help to set the tone for the discussion, I do break the class that I'm teaching into smaller groups so of course I can't monitor the level of discussion that well. But I think it's pretty good. I think people who are interested in Aboriginal studies join that class because they want to be there. Even when they are ignorant about certain issues, they are willing to listen and so the discussion is quite good. However I have had experiences in more junior classes where there are people who aren't particularly interested in Aboriginal issues where the conversation has gone what I feel in a bad direction. That's kind of unsettling, you are kind of like "Oh my goodness, how do I retrieve the line of discussion without making anyone feel that I've just... you know a great big cannon just come down from the sky and muffled their ideas." So it can get strange in some classes. |
| [18,3] Karrmen: So you find it in junior classes? |
| [18,4] Margery: More in junior classes. I can't think of an example where that happened in the senior class. Yeah, I mean often Aboriginal students will have discussions. You know they'll have differences. Sometimes those are interesting. But they're not as... they're not problematic. I mean they don't become racist or anything. But it's nice I think to have multiple Aboriginal positions in class on Aboriginal issues for the non-Aboriginal students to see that it's not a monolithic set of ideas that Aboriginal students have. They don't come from the same places. So... |
| [18,5] Karrmen: What do you find is the most difficult aspect of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [18,6] Margery: Well I think when I go into the senior class, obviously they are Aboriginal students sitting there looking at me and thinking, "Well, yet another white person is telling us what we should be thinking about our culture." And that's really tough. And I know they are thinking it and so I always talk about it right at the beginning. I front that and say, "I know some of you may be thinking why are you in the class? Why isn't there someone Aboriginal teaching this because this is an Aboriginal issue related course." So I do front that, and I say, "I'm aware of those issues and the ethical issues involved in teaching about a culture that isn't one zone and it is a big problem. Nobody gets it right." I'm happy. I'm overjoyed that we're getting more Aboriginal instructors and professors in Arts but it's still way too few. Um... and I'm happy that I've been able to supervise PhD students who are Aboriginal who now go out and do this job. I also say not just being Aboriginal is not a real qualification for teaching English in university either. So one has to have qualified people to do it and it is a bind. |
| [18,7] Then I assert that I think I'm qualified and why. There's that but I also say there are people here who inevitably will know way more than I do, Aboriginal or not probably about some issues that we are going to get in to. So I really open it to people to intervene and say I know something else, or I know something different, or I think something different. I try to make it clear although I'm not going to put Aboriginal student on the spot, I mean half of the time I don't know whether people are Aboriginal or not in my classroom. Not everybody puts their hand up and says the line "Aboriginal." But I do kind of say, "Please feel free to come to me after class and say I think you got that a little wrong or there's more to be said about that." And I bring it back to the next class, anonymously, or whatever. It depends how they... they might say, "I'd like to say something about that." That would be fine. So I try to mediate in lots of ways because it is worrisome. You really would hate to... I always hate to think there's someone sitting there, you know angry or embarrassed or whatever. Because the issues are very sensitive and I don't claim to have a perfect way to discuss anything in class. You have to bring some very difficult issues up. You have to talk about residential schools, some people have trauma from that. Some of the novels I teach are really, really upsetting. |
| [18,8] I think Kiss of the Fur Queen, I warn people about Kiss of the Fur Queen. I warn them about some of the things that come up in some of the novels because for some people if they've been adopted, In Search of a April Rain Tree can be really, really painful for them. So I try to at least give people a little heads up that there are going to be things in the course they might find troublesome and that helps. I have people come to me and say, "Well I... I just don't think I can finish that book." Not many. One or two and I always say, "Well... you know... that's okay, you don't have to. But you might want to go talk to somebody about it. Why you feel this way? Why you are worried about it? Um... get it over... you know sort of try to get through it rather than just avoiding it." But I don't push it. Lots of students don't read all the books in the course anyways. So why should I not let somebody off the hook? |
| [18,9] Karrmen: So you mentioned earlier that there is... that you've heard some things in more junior classes that were problematic. I was wondering if there is... if you had any particular experiences in the classroom or in the work place that have been memorable that you wanted to talk about. |
| [18,10] Margery: Well I think there are two experiences. This young man, a young non-Aboriginal man started in to the usual "Oh they are all on welfare, they don't pay taxes." Just a whole list of misconceptions and... I forgot the context and he seems like... you know this was not angry, this was not aggressive, but it was just wrong. In a sense that's an opportunity if you can... but I can't even remember whether there would've been Aboriginal students in the class. But that's certainly something I don't want to hear in a class or at least. But I think I manage with him because he really was a pretty nice guy to pick them all up and take them out to the class and say, "Well, do you think it's really so that all Aboriginal people are on welfare? Is that truly the case? Do you have any..." Try to explain that these were just stereotypes and they couldn't possibly be true. But of course, someone will come up with some assertion that's really difficult to catch on the fly and turn it around. So sometimes you just... sometimes you miss things. The other one was I think the first time I had an all Aboriginal class. I had a... |
| [18,11] I was teaching really basic writing skills, and students handed... I realized now I just wasn't qualified to do it. I am an university professor. But I was hired to do it. It wasn't like they said I wasn't qualified... But I had a student that handed me a paper that was really inadequate. I mean it was really inadequate at the elementary school level and the students in this course was suppose to be grade 10 and above and that was a miss. Some of them were, some of them weren't. I really felt I didn't handle it well in retrospect although when I told the story to the other instructor, he said, "Look, don't beat yourself up about it. This is a student who might have reacted badly no matter what you did." But I should've just said, "This is great. Write me more, you know, write me more." But of course I wanted to correct it and he just... he just couldn't take it. And of course, we know lots of students can't take corrections. They don't like it. It makes them feel bad. They identify with something they've written and they feel like you are telling them it was no good. And I mean it was certainly the case. And we were just so culturally far apart. We were so educationally far apart, that you know... I felt that I really dropped the ball on that one person. Other people in the class, you know they taught me enough about how to work with people who's writing skills are really, |
| [18,12] really poor and to continue to encourage them because really that's what's needed at that point. It's hard enough for them to write. A lot of them have really bad experiences in school. You knew that. But that was a long time ago. I was a younger person. Of course those experiences as you work with Aboriginal subject matter and Aboriginal students you know you learn as much or more than...from them than you teach them. You can turn that around and use it when you...you going to make mistake. It's very upsetting. I'll never forget that one. It taught be a lot in non-Aboriginal students too. I mean I didn't like corrections why would I think anybody else would like it? Takes quite a robust feeling about one's own abilities to sit down with a professor who might be culturally completely alien to you and seem who knows rich and distant and you know all those things and then have this person say, "Well this sentence needs to be rewritten. I'll drop out again." I think it takes a long time for middle class people who have always been successful at school to understand what it's like to be someone who's never been successful at school... |
| [18,13] in school only because the government told them you have to take this course. You know it's a completely different situation. So that was a very interesting one. I think I did it for two terms or something like that. I'm really glad I had that experience, but I also realized that was not the level in which I should be teaching. I think they needed someone who have been trained in different kinds of educational... you know I was chosen for my politics and knowledge about Aboriginal literature. But that was very early. They vindicated Beatrice Culleton by every time we bought 10 copies of In Search of April Rain Tree they would just vanish and then we go buy 10 more and they vanish. You know I thought, "They're reading. They're reading. Yay! Let's get more of these!" Anything they would read we would buy. And then I learned about students who wouldn't read anything that wasn't about Aboriginal culture. They just weren't interested in learning anything more about non-Aboriginal culture. At least not by reading. So we would go out and get as much... they read quite difficult stuff, much more difficult than they so called reading level because they were interested in it. That's another thing that's a no-brainer for elementary school teachers and high school teachers. But then again I never had a problem with that. In university you assign it. |
| [18,14] You just say, "This is what you are reading." So that was... it was just a very interesting, intense time. We had students in that class that ranged from this young man, who's I think would have been maybe grade five, to someone I said, "Why are you not at university? Why are you here instead of there?" There were people of a huge range of ability, which is also interesting. Yeah... so that was a very interesting time. |
| [18,15] Karrmen: So in that, so you said in that incident with that student over the writing that he had submitted, so in retrospect you wanted to... you would have just... |
| [18,16] Margery: I think I would have just encouraged him. I would've said, "I find this very interesting." It was. It was interesting. It was an interesting story that he had written down and I should have just said, "I'm very interested in the story. Write me more like that." Because at that stage, he was obviously quite fragile and one of the persons I told the story to, I talked to, there was an Aboriginal classroom convener, I forgot what her title was, but I told her and she said, "Well you know he may... may not be your fault, he may have done that before to other teachers. Don't take it all on yourself." But of course I did. Because I think I could've avoided it, and he might not have been able to avoid it. It's all very well for me... you know I'm not awake in the middle of the night thinking about him or anything. But he needed a lot of help and he didn't get it from me. That's how I felt, so... |
| [18,17] Karrment: Have you had any other experiences that have been notably better or worse? |
| [18,18] Margery: I had Aboriginal students who were quite um... they were quite resistant of my ways of doing things and possibly to my opinions too. I mean they didn't standup and denounce me in front of everybody or anything but I knew there was some tension there. It's hard to deal with because I mean in some ways it's pushing... they're pushing in ways that are hard to get out in the classroom, and there are also sometimes hard to get out in the classroom too. People who are resistant... you don't want to put them on the spot in the classroom but they may not want to talk to you outside the classroom. I mean there's only so far you can try to make a relationship across those distances. I had two people in particular where I thought, "They will either stay in the course or they won't." I put out all I can in ways of making them feel they can do the work they want in this classroom, they can write on what they like. |
| [18,19] It's not like I said to them, "Oh no standard will apply, you're special, you can do whatever you want." But one of them is quite determined that he would not do any work that didn't related to his personal political interests. I don't mean he wasn't prepared to write a literary essay for me, but you know he wanted to work out his topic in such a way that he felt it was something valuable for him to work on. That was find with me actually because I do that with lots of students. Lots of students are quite happy I put out... you know I put out the essay questions they look say, "Fine, there's one I like" and off they go. Other students come to me and I always say you may and say, "None of this interest me. I don't really want to do that, I like to do this." We work it out in as far as you can. So he did stick around. He did do his essay and was fine essay and everything was okay. I don't think he went away thinking that was the best experience I had in my entire life. I think he felt the whole university was a difficult place for him to be. The other classroom thing that I often found is that I would have... in that class I would have... you know English honor students who could write essay that could make you weep with joy because they were such good essays. And then I had Aboriginal students for whom those skills were maybe not so much. |
| [18,20] They were in the classroom because they were interested in the subject matter. So here I have... people who don't know much about Aboriginal culture and don't have much contextual knowledge who can write really well. Then a bunch of people who maybe can't write so well but have fabulous knowledge and they're invested in it in a really interesting way. So try to get those... you know get the good writing honor students to learn a lot about Aboriginal culture while the Aboriginal students are learning a lot about how to write better essays, you know you are doing a lot of crossover work. And uh... it was alright. I mean I managed it. But I think that every non-Aboriginal person who goes into the field has to go through these ethical torments I guess and students come to me and say, "Should I worry about it?" And I say, "Yes! I worry about it. I wrote papers and I still writing papers about this problem and this is the biggest problem we have about cross cultural communications and how to do it well. It doesn't stop." You know you don't get a free pass when you hit 50 or something because you've been in the field for 25 years, you have friends who were Aboriginal. It doesn't suddenly absolve you of paying attention because you can lapse very quickly into "I know everything now" or those kinds of attitudes can really... |
| [18,21] A new generation comes along, they have different demands and they have difference expectations and so I'm always nervous about it. And I'm thinking... I'm very happy now as they say there are Aboriginal people coming in to teach these courses, and hooray! I haven't been teaching that course recently because I'm moving in to a new area. I don't want to leave it not taught because I think Aboriginal students need a course like that and if no one is teaching it, they're not getting credit for books they really want to read and write about. But at the same time, I didn't want to monopolize, I don't want it to be my course. It's not. So I'm hoping somebody new will be teaching it next year and that would be really, really good. So it's these ethical issues are part of teaching in some field. So I also teach in post-colonial studies, I teach about race, I've taught in women's studies where you deal with gender and you are dealing with sexuality. And they are all very tough. Because there will be someone sitting in every classroom who's not satisfied, is not getting what they hope to get in your class. And sometimes they'll come to you and express that and you can kind of do repair work. But if they won't come, for good reasons often, for feeling they might be hurt, |
| [18,22] they might not get a good response, it just continues as a kind of ongoing problem for those students and it's very... it's upsetting even though you can't be perfect, you can't do everything for everybody. It's still worrying that there's someone or maybe more than one someone, maybe several someone, sometimes on the teaching evaluation you'll hear. "That's too late" you know, it's too late and you think, "Oh... too bad." So yeah. |
| [18,23] Karrmen: So you talked about some of the strategies in the classroom to kind of help alleviate or address the difficulties in talking about Aboriginal issues. Are there other particular techniques or strategies that you've used that you found to be particular effective? |
| [18,24] Margery: I think in all classes, not Aboriginal studies or literature classes, but all classes it's good to ask everybody in the class what their expectations are for it and read those carefully because sometimes you'll find people have expectations that are unmet. You know they are just... that's not what you are doing in that class. It's not what the class is about. So I've had people occasionally come and say, "Oh I want to do a creative writing thing." And you know I would say, "Well that's not I'm here to teach you. I am here to teach you how to write academic essays. So if you want creative writing, I can send you off to creative writing." Sometime I've let people do creative things when they prove to me they can write an academic essay. But it's not I'm completely against it. So that's one set of expectations or you get expectations... other kind of expectations. A lot of Aboriginal students really do want to work on their issues, their personal or family or community issues. I think that's fine. I have nothing against that but sometimes the kind of project they propose is inappropriate or just won't work in the context of the literature course... you know there are places where that just isn't going to work. They need to be in First Nations Studies or some other place. |
| [18,25] So it's good to know that they have those expectations and try to speak to them. Sometimes the students will decide that the class isn't for them. But you want to get that transaction really fast. So I try to get some writing from people very quickly. I try to make it sort of a... kind of... it will let me know if there are going to be in academic difficulty in the course, it'll let me know what their expectations are. So if you can get some kind of journal writing or response or something back before the drop date. I think that's really good. So you want to try to get to know them very quickly that way. So that I think is a useful... um... it's also useful to schedule appointments with people sometimes. So you do get the one on one. You can't avoid some of the students sitting in the class thinking, "If you just schedule an appointment with them..." You just say, "I'd like to see you." Most students will come along and often you can get something going whether you start understanding what's going on. Another project that I've done which I found very useful was a back and front 10-mark research piece and what we did with them I said, "You can do it on anything you like." |
| [18,26] That's where a lot of Aboriginal students can write about... that's how I learned about Bill C-31 and how it was going to ... people were going to be not status because they were just be kind of legislated out of existence. That was the first time I heard about that. Lots of people I know don't understand how that works. Some Aboriginal people don't even understand how that works, so that was very interesting, lots of things. The non-Aboriginal people would learn how to go to library and where the books are on Aboriginal people, would get some research skills. So it works very well for both sides of the house as it were. What I did was I publish those, I edit to them a little bit, and we publish them and then we put them in a book and duplicated it and everybody got a copy. So in a class of 35, you would have 35 different little 2-page projects. You can put little maps or pictures or whatever you think you need to do to make this communicate to people. And then I put it on the exam so there were 10 marks on the exam, they got 10 marks for doing it and they got another 10 marks on the exam which is based on knowing what was in those things. So each person in the class had a bit of course input. That way people did learn about Bill C-31 in a way I didn't have to... this is a literature course, so getting Bill C-31 straight... |
| [18,27] You know those were the kind of the things they feel that they needed to know but I didn't actually want to sit down and teach a whole course on these things. Again you want to read the novels and talk about them. So that worked. There are various kind of projects you can give to people that are helpful I think that allow them the freedom to work on things they're interested in. To teach other students without necessarily calling on someone in class to talk about their community or something, which would put them on the spot and make them feel... well might, some people stand up and talk anyway. So that worked well. |
| [18,28] Karrmen: So you found that was effective because the students were able to have some... um... do a project based on their own interests? Are there other... how did you see that working as effective? |
| [18,29] Margery: I guess it gave them a bit of an investment in the course so they became... they saw that their interest, the way they put them would become important to them would become important to the course as a whole. I never got anything I felt was inappropriate, occasionally I got things where I want to correct the spelling, making sure the grammar was right, little things like that. But it... I got a lot of materials that was news to me because of course I don't have the range of knowledge that the students were interested in doing so people would pick a Vancouver Island artist to work on or the... or an origin story. It was very varied I think it opened up everybody's mind in a literature essay about an Aboriginal novel. You know because they are about the scoop up or about the residential school or they're about politics, I mean Slash is very political, very much about Constitution Act. So there are all these different areas where you would be bring in a whole range of political, social, spiritual, cultural issues. |
| [18,30] These little two pagers allow the kind of... you can see the kind of research you can do to underpin an essay. It's a little bit different from most literary papers where you can just focus on the literature because the cultural assumptions are so dominate, nobody needs to have it explained. I don't know what Christianity was about... you know you don't have to launch into a long detail explanation about inheritance rules in English when you do Jane Austen. You don't. Everybody knows the eldest man or eldest son got the moolah and those kind of things. But in Aboriginal cultures, those things are very differently done and sometimes it makes a difference in understanding a literary piece. So yeah... |
| [18,31] Karrmen: Is there anything you've tried you wouldn't recommended? |
| [18,32] Margery: Ah... Yeah... Big mistakes... anything I've tried that I wouldn't recommend? I think I learned not to put all the eggs in one basket, which is sort of what you can do in some courses in university. Well maybe nobody should be doing this. It seems a bit crazy to me when I look on it. Where you've got the exam that is worth 40%, the big paper is worth 40%, and class participation or something is 20%. So someone writes a 40% paper and it's not good. It can really be a disaster. So I don't... even in my grad classes now, I don't do that anymore. I don't put all... I think it was exactly the problem I was telling you about where I got Aboriginal students whose academic preparation was not as good as the none Aboriginal students for a variety of reasons. I would get people from coming in to my class for instance who hadn't done a lot of literary courses but they really want to do the reading that was on my course. Sometimes I convince them it was too senior for them, they wouldn't have done second year English and I look at the writing and say, "You know what... I'm sorry there isn't a second year course that you can take, but this course is going to kill you. |
| [18,33] It really is too hard. I had two students who just said, "No. We want to stay." So I worked out a thing, which worked quite well, which is you can do the 40% paper and when you got it back if you got a mark below a certain letter grade, you had the option, you didn't had to do this, you had the option of having it making it worth 20% and write another paper and make it worth 20%. And they took the option because their first paper really wasn't great, I mean they didn't fail but they were in the C range. So they said, "We want to do the other paper now" and I said, "Ok." Now I could spend a lot of time with them because I knew where everybody else in the class sat. They came in to me once a week and we worked on their paper and they were willing to put the effort into it. They really learned a lot and we were all happy with it. Most of the students took the 40% option, including some students who had the low mark, and that was fine too. At least they did the paper because what I find sometimes is people would leave it too late, they wouldn't get the paper done and they fail the course. And that wasn't inevitably Aboriginal students, but it sometimes was. |
| [18,34] This way I have 40% of their mark early on in the term, I could bug them if I didn't get it and they finish the course even if it wasn't worth a great mark. So these were the strategies that helped people who weren't quite at the top of the academic game yet in a course that was essentially filled up with honor students the first time I taught it, English honors. So... but not all courses where you find Aboriginal people in and have those dichotomies and not all Aboriginal people are not as well prepared either. I think things are changing, I think students are coming in with better skills now. All students, Aboriginal or not because I know about the admission policies and they're... you know students are just great and they just come right in with everybody else and they have the great high school marks and so on. So I think as time changes that problem is going to be less serious. |
| [18,35] Karrmen: So normally when an incident like that took place, a student, if they had a complaint, they would complain to the department or program head? Is that... and if they do report? |
| [18,36] Margery: Well if you look in the calendar, it says, "that problems should be solved as near to the source as possible." That means students in the first instance if they feel they can do it, should go to the instructor and they do. They often come and they say, "I don't like this mark. I don't understand what you said on my essay. I felt you embarrassed me." Because they'll come, and often very brave students I think, will come and tell you that you were out of line. Maybe you were, maybe you weren't but at least you get a chance and say, "I was and I'm sorry or I had no idea." But of course the people who were easily hurt are often the people who are easily hurt are often people who are least likely to see you...I mean a classroom relationship doesn't mean you have to love each other, but you do have to treat each other with respect and if often comes down with those kind of things where the students feel that the instructor doesn't respect their knowledge, their background, whatever. So and sometimes students are disrespectful and sometimes you have to explain to them that instructors aren't without feelings, you know...It's hard on the student, I mean that's part of the problem that the student had to carry the can, the student has to actually make... |
| [18,37] At least make the appointments to come to see us. It seems... but we can't do it, they've got to do it. So it's the usual situation where you have a disability and you're Aboriginal and you're suffering in the classroom, you have to spend the extra time. You're the one that has to do the work. You're the one that has to convince a new strange person that you've never met that there's a problem. That always seems to be very unfair, but it's... I don't know apart from having lots of support and apart from making sure you give the students leeway in terms of maybe more time on the course because they had a problem. You have to try to compensate for that problem. There's really no way around it. Students have to be their own advocate to some degree. I mean this is a place where you are treated as an adult and I have professors sometimes who feel they have to advocate for the student and I'm quite wary of that. I mean you've got to be careful because then you are rescuing and I said, "We rescue this student." But... students, we should just always think "Oh poor them, they can't help themselves." Because students learn political skills in doing these things as well, |
| [18,38] so you have to balance off the harm done to them and the confidence building that they get from actually taking something that they felt was wrong and taking it to a successful resolution without their hand held the whole time. So sometimes I say that to students, I've said, "This is tough I know. It's very tough and I'm very sympathetic but this is the world, it's a world where we do have to become agents and political actors and I think you can do it. I think you can and I think you will get change if you go on and ask for it." It's a gamble because sometimes it doesn't work out the way. |
| [18,39] Karrmen: What do you think the university could do to provide a context to have better discussions about Aboriginal issues or better address these situations? |
| [18,40] Margery: It's hard you know. I've spent... Aboriginal literature and Aboriginal studies are my research specialty. I've spent my whole life in it often on it. It has been the main focus all the time. But I'm still learning. I still do ignorant things. I still have misconceptions. The one thing I did suggest... we were asked for suggestions for this new Aboriginal task force from New Zealand where the Maori population is 25% of the overall population which is a big political. It's a big political number. It's not like 3% or 5% or 6% or whatever the percentage of Aboriginal people in Canada is. It's more like what Quebec is. So if you have that many people who are Aboriginal in your society, you can do pretty happening things in the university and in the school system. They've done language revitalization and they've done all these wonderful things. So he was talking about the University of Auckland where Aboriginal Studies is a focus. It's not on the margins. It's a focus. Now whether that could be the case in UBC I don't know. But I think the idea that it shouldn't be seen as marginal issues for only a few areas. Because what about land claims? What about reparations? |
| [18,41] The federal government has engaged in all these big projects to kind of repair some of the damage of colonialism, and most Canadians aren't even aware that this is going on. They don't even know about it. It's an economic issue for everybody. It's a political issue. It's an ethical issue for the whole country. And I think if that kind of feeling starts to infuse the subject areas where there is a place where those kinds of things can be taught, geography, human geography, law, it's already there I think in law... it needs to be infused in these departments. In English it's starting to be a very important issue where we get someone who's Aboriginal to teach Aboriginal literature, which we do teach regularly. When I arrived, it had never been taught. So things are gradual, but I think it's really important in making sure that everybody is aware. Even thanking Musqueam for living and working on their traditional territory is a very important move. It may seem a bit lip service, but for a lot of people is like "Oh! We didn't know." A lot of people in the audience wouldn't necessarily know that. So the minute that starts to happen, that causes people to be more open to these issues. |
| [18,42] So I think it has to happen slowly but it has to happen. I mean slowly I don't know really slowly but I mean you can't wake up one morning and have it all change. It has been changing really quite a bit since I got here in 1992. I think it can go faster now. But I think for some places in the university it's very hard to explain to science professor who never teach this stuff that they might have a couple of Aboriginal students in their class and what means in terms of maybe different needs or expectations from those students. It would be hard to explain to them I think, but not necessarily. I don't know. You can't assume people are ignorant before you had the proof. That's not very kind. But I think that's obvious in some subject areas like history you are going to get a lot more sensitivity to Aboriginal issues and then subject areas like Economics... where Aboriginal Economics is just not even on the horizon perhaps. |
| [18,43] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [18,44] Margery: I think it's very important that there is more funding to the programs we have. It seems to me that we need more funding. We obviously do and we needed in First Nations languages too. So even though there's quite a bit of... and this is where I think the Musqueam thanking can be seen as a little lip serving, you can't go on doing that paying lip service for too long before people start to become disillusioned. They think "Well, we are all over the ads, but we are not getting the substance and it's a difficult... the university really has to put its money where its mouth is I think at this point. And I think it's going to, I'm very optimistic that it will and wiser heads than I will probably determine what direction that would take. |
| [18,45] Karrmen: I've got a couple minutes of tape left and I was just wondering if there is anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to mention or talk about. |
| [18,46] Margery: Well I think... I think one thing that people are learning and really slowly... is that there are models in western scholarship, models of behavior and rules about how you do things and genres that really blind us to inequalities and to difference. A lot of people just take for granted that a good university a high standard of work requires that these particular models are in place. Or the university is somehow going to lose quality; the education here is not going to be a good one. And I think that's an area of study where the Aboriginal people have a huge amount to contribute because they are the ones that come right up against that problem. When I'm asking people to write certain kinds of essay and it doesn't allow an Aboriginal person to express what they want to and I've had that with PhD students... That's what the academy has to learn and one of my students wrote an essay, she said, "The University is being shown hospitality for Aboriginal people by being on their land so it must be hospitable and it's turn to Aboriginal people," and not just in a kind of condescending way, but in a way that says, "We welcome your ways of thinking into the University. |
| [18,47] We want to learn from you about these ways of thinking because they will improve our overall quality. They will make the University a better place intellectually." And that's something people haven't got their heads around very well. Aboriginal people are often seen as needing help, needing to be rescued, when in fact we need to be rescued from the very limited, blinded ways of seeing it that we've been trained in and that's her point of being hospitable. So we have to learn to be more hospitable to our Aboriginal students. Not to mention all the other minority students and students coming from all kinds of place. When I see "We" I always think "who is this we white woman, what does this we entail? Who are we? How do we include and exclude people? We are always including and excluding and we have to worry about that and think about it more consciously. |
|
Charlotte Townsend-Gault |
| [19,1] Karrmen: Um, I guess I can start by asking, um, how satisfied are you with the level of discussion addressing Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classrooms or in your workplace? |
| [19,2] Charlotte: Hmm...you come just right into it, um...I think I'd take it back a step, if that's alright with you, and speak a little bit about a classroom in general, and how one deals with this odd relationship, in a way, of standing in front of a group of people, in the most general way, which is a relationship of an instructor to a class, and uh, I think there's a...I have an ideal, which is a classroom as an open space...which I try to explain to students at the beginning of, of a term. By that I mean...a place where...it's not me up here and them as sponges going to be filled up by what I say to them. We need to be in, at least on some level, a dialogue? I want it to be like that, and, that after all, is a grand term, but that's the Socratic method of teaching. You know, you're in a relationship, we're all in a relationship together, and, there has to be conversation. People have to feel able to converse with one another, and they have also to feel able to argue. Because if you're going to have anything like a free exchange of views and ideas, there's going to be difference, there's going to be argument. They key thing is that the argument, any argument, exchange of different views has to be done with respect to your opponent. |
| [19,3] It may come to quite strenuous argument, but it must be cordial argument. It's an ideal, right, but it's worth striving for. And I would say that that's really how a classroom has to be conducted. Now, I also know that in this particular university there's a great diversity of people coming into a classroom. Racial diversity, yes. But different learning levels, different learning styles...some people come with physical disabilities, some people come with...learning challenges, I mean, one has to face the fact that, that people have come from different countries, they have different levels of English, that's where teaching in English is, for the purposes of this argument. So that's a big challenge, to start with, in a country as Canada is at the moment, and as Vancouver is. So one has to set that up in a way for people to feel...I mean comfortable is such a clich�, I'm not sure comfort is what we're really after, but we need to feel that people...it's my job to make people feel that their differences are going to be treated with respect. Having said that, I'm privileged to be teaching, specifically, indigenous topics in this university. And so I am aware that there's a special kind of set of issues within this broader diversity of difference that you're going to get. |
| [19,4] And my way of dealing with that is to...tell the students, what...the very first thing one does in the classroom, the first time you meet them, is to talk about the Musqueam, because of, that's where this classroom is, and this university. And so acknowledging the Musqueam is the first thing that should happen. But then most of them won't know why you're doing that. So you have to explain the protocols, and explain the history. So in fact, it's a good funnel in, the Musqueam, is a good funnel into, um, explaining why there are special histories that we have to take into account. And then the next thing I do is explain why I've got myself to be the person who's introducing this course, and what path I've taken. I hope I'm sort of getting to your question, but I feel as though I needed to set this up a little bit, see where I was coming from in a broader way. It's not that I wanted totally to talk about myself but I feel, if I don't make it very clear why I'm me, not just any old person, how it is that I as a non-Native person too, but not just because I'm non-Native, but...other characteristics that I have, I mean they can hear I'm English for example, I tell them that I have anthropology in my background as well as art history, if I'm feeling very chatty I tell them that my father was an artist, you know, I come from a family of artists, I don't always do that, it depends on, you know, the kind of vibe you're getting from the class. |
| [19,5] And in the course of explaining...positioning myself, I make it very clear where I stand on the fact that...I think, Canada is, in general, is abysmally ignorant of history, of First Nations people in all kinds of ways. And I find, my own experience has shown me, that people come to the classroom and - most of my teaching experience is here in Vancouver, in British Columbia - come to the classroom, specifically here, with a great lack of understanding, and particularly the kids who've been educated with the British Columbia school system. And that's something I've learned. I didn't, wasn't prepared for that, wasn't expecting that. And I've had to modify what I do in response to that. Anyway, I must give them right from the start my own sense of...this history as something we need to learn together, we need to learn more about. And that I actually know very little about First Nations culture, First Nations art, whatever we're going to, whatever words we're going to settle on and words we're going to discuss together. I'm learning this with them, I'm learning all the time, and it's a privilege to be doing that, but it's also a duty. I feel we have a duty, it's something that we can do to ameliorate the effects of the colossal ignorance and the colossal prejudice which surrounds so many of the issues. |
| [19,6] When there's a small enough group, I then ask them to do what I've done, explain who they are, where they're coming from what they've done, what they're hoping to achieve in the class. And it's very nice when it's a seminar type group and we can um, put our cards on the table, figuratively speaking, to start with. Bigger classes, that's not practical, but what I tend to do, is ask students to give me a sheet of paper telling me who they are, and if they want to, of course they don't have to do this, and what they're hoping, what brings them into a class on First Nations art and history. What they don't know and what they want to know. And I hope that sets some kind of tone, I hope it set an ethical tone for our encounter, and as it were, a "learning together" tone. And I want them to realize, through no fault of their own, often, that they don't know very much. But they're going to find out that all kinds of books and all kinds of films and all kinds of people are going to give them different sorts of responses, different kinds of interpretations, different sorts of takes, and they're going to have to do a lot of work for themselves, they're going to have to work their way through this. |
| [19,7] I'm not going to show them one way, they're going to have to work it out for themselves, so I hope that by doing that, I've made some...some kind of collective, that we're part of a collective endeavour. Does that get anywhere towards answering your question which was a bit more specific than I've been... |
| [19,8] Karrmen: Right. Um...well, if you wanted to talk - I mean, you've addressed the kind of, what you encounter in the classrooms as far as a kind of environment, so...yeah, I think... |
| [19,9] Charlotte: I mean, it can go back, you know, the situation can, although one does one's best to set the tone and give some kind of example, there can be students in the class who are obstreperous in expressing what you'd have to call a prejudice. But actually, in my experience at UBC, those people have been - I'm talking about vocal expressions of prejudice now, in the classroom - have been a very small minority. Um...I don't know what people are thinking, but when it comes to expressing obstreperously objectionable prejudice, there have been few. And I can think of one class, the worst of these cases, actually happened to have, if I'm remembering correctly, at least two First Nations students who themselves were prepared to be vocal, and there were some arguments between this guy - yes, it was a man - but the interesting upshot of that was that by the end of the class, by the end of the term, he came to me, well not even did he come to me but he wrote me a letter, and he said, "I've learned from this." And I was pleased, because he caused pain, there's no question, and he caused confusion amongst, I could tell, from the other students, sort of watching this, um... |
| [19,10] Karrmen: And this was a classroom incident, then, something that took place? What was the... |
| [19,11] Charlotte: This was a third-year lecture course, it wasn't a seminar, it was a lecture...and you have to remember that people come to these classes from all over, right, that's something I had to learn here, I wasn't prepared for the fact that they weren't all going to be Art History majors. People wander into these classes from across the campus, they bring all kinds of different academic backgrounds and sets of interests and...definitely some of them are less sensitive than others. I'm not saying that all art historians are sensitive, that's not what I mean, but you know, there's a diversity of intellectual types in the class. But this was a relatively rare; it was a rare incident that somebody was...aggressively unpleasant, on a few occasions through the term. |
| [19,12] Karrmen: So can you talk more about like, what happened around the incident? Sort of what the situation was? Or any one of them? |
| [19,13] Charlotte: Well he would say things like, you know, I don't know why we're...it might be around, it might have been around say, belief systems or, or a cosmology, which I mean, you know, you've been in my courses, I'm taking art very much in context and, um... trying to, if not explain myself, at least show students where they can go to learn more about the contexts in which certain kinds of objects are made, interpreted, used, cared for, etc. So cosmology is such a very complicated thing, terribly difficult to summarize fairly. I mean, that's very much what I try to do, to summarize fairly in a non-reductive kind of way and make sure that students know where they can go for further knowledge, further exploration. But, you know, this guy could get impatient, as in, you know that, "pff, why would anybody believe such a thing?" You know, I can't be completely sure that he used the word superstition but he might have used that sort of word. Which is a word we don't use, right, I would say, except to examine...the history of that as a misapprehension, generally in a third-year class I don't need to go there, but they, they... |
| [19,14] students need to hear about history as a misinterpretation, of course, misconstruction, right, or construction of the imaginary Indian, because we teach that, we need to talk about it. And as I recall this, it's a few years ago now, but as I recall this, these exchanges with this guy, other students saw that this was...it was an object lesson in prejudice, and it was useful in the end, and as I say, it proved to be useful to him. But I also think that, you know, this is a person that is going to be obstreperous in other circumstances too, he wasn't only going to be objectionable around indigenous issues, but he was going to be objectionable period. I don't mean to change to subject but there are such people, you know who are just going to be bloody-minded, and insensitive, and they're going to go through life that way. We did something in that course though, to get him to think differently about indigenous issues. |
| [19,15] Karrmen: How did that kind of come about? |
| [19,16] Charlotte: Well I think with the help of...it was undoubtedly helpful to him, and to the rest of the class, that there were native students there who didn't mind, as far as I could tell - they minded being insulted, of course they did - but they were vocal. And it's not easy to talk in a class, God knows, it's not easy to do it, but they did it, they took him on. So that was...with them, there was - between me and them - and other students who piped up in the class, it wasn't just a...back and forth, he saw, and other people could see, that they were, it was an object lesson in prejudice working its way out from the thick-skinned, and actually thick. But there was a change of tempo, change of tenor through the term. |
| [19,17] Karrmen: So what's an object lesson? |
| [19,18] Charlotte: Oh, object lesson means an example. I just mean that. |
| [19,19] Karrmen: Oh, yeah, I just wanted to add for clarity. |
| [19,20] Charlotte: I think it's an English phrase actually. But there are other students who don't vocalize their prejudices, and I get to be aware of them in various ways, in a class. From their facial expressions, right, or that kind of face can close down. Fortunately, I teach in, or have until the classes have - when I began to teach, the classes were smaller. And they've now grown bigger. But when you're in a class that holds between 30 and 40 people, you can see their faces pretty clearly. In a raked lecture hall, it's more difficult, but anyway, for the first few years I was teaching it was more intimate. Anyway, you can tell a lot from people's faces. Closed faces. Bored, or, not too much boredom but "oh God," you know, "not this again." You could see that. So, um...and I need to tell you about that, because that, that's...part of where the problem, what this is all about, is manifested. People just...are solemn in their disagreement, and I want to, I do feel as though I have a bit of a mission to try to change that. |
| [19,21] So in a way, if somebody can express their...impatience, let's say with the sense that...indigenous students are being given pride of place, or being favoured in some way, which I hope that they're not, I try to teach, I try to make the classroom, you know, a level playing field. But this is the way that prejudice can manifest itself, as in "oh," you know, "there go the Native students again," and that can manifest itself in a closing down, not speaking out, not objecting vocally, but just being grumpy, right. And so I'd rather that those people express themself because then somebody is going to come back to them, there's going to be a dialogue, and it seems to be better to get the arguments articulated. There's a better chance of that student, um...thinking it through, changing their attitude if they will express it somehow. And unless they, another of my pleasant experience, one of my pleasant experiences in the course is how non-indigenous students will speak out and not tolerate...unpleasant views. So it's better to get them out, better to get them expressed and then argued with, that's what I'd say. But it's rare, these situations are rare. There are often things that need to be talked about, often, often that puzzle students. All students. They're puzzled, where...indigenous issues are on the table. |
| [19,22] But I've, as I've said, I try to make it possible for them to speak. And in the course of conversation, once you've got a class talking, reasonably comfortable talking, not everybody's, there are always going to be a few people that are uncomfortable speaking, but if you get a goodly number of them, it's going to be a healthier environment. So people will be able to sort of think out loud. And they may, they may, that way find ways of expressing the sorts of underlying bewilderment about, you know, how is it that we didn't, we grew up in Vancouver - I'm speaking about non-Native students now - we grew up in Vancouver and we didn't know say, about indigenous language loss, we didn't know about residential schools and their role in that. I mean, and I do try to explain how vital language is for the transmission of culture, whole world views are in languages and we don't know them, we now got very little way of finding out about so many of them, what an unbelievable loss to everybody that is. So things like that get discussed, I'm able to contribute a little bit, I'm able, as I say to tell them where to go, quite a lot of students are interested in the First Nations language program, and think, "yeah, I want to check that out." I take that as an entirely positive move, but what they're expressing in these conversation is that ignorant, we didn't know this, right, we need to find out, and those of them who are not too shy are able to... |
| [19,23] you know, think through their own ignorance, and in thinking through their own ignorance you could see so easily where the roots of prejudice are, and the roots of discrimination are, and they'll, the more vocal students will think about experiences in their own families, what they've heard...I think they need to speak this out, it helps everyone. |
| [19,24] Karrmen: Are there strategies or techniques that you've found effective in having more effective discussions? You've been talking about getting people, you know, seeing their faces close down, but you know, that talking is, having that discussion is an effective outcome, but do you have any strategies or techniques for kind of dealing with these kinds of difficult situations? |
| [19,25] Charlotte: Right, well, let me say that the closed-down solemn faces, they're still, they really are a minority, and I'm not, in saying that I'm not meaning to say that this is a bed of roses, obviously I know that it isn't, but in a way, because I'm teaching indigenous art, people who are in my class, they want to learn about indigenous art. And, so people who are totally prejudiced against indigenous people aren't going to be in the classroom, right. They've come to learn something. So, I'm fortunate, perhaps in that sense. But one of my strategies, and it's much easier to do in a smaller group, has been to get people to either physically bring into class with them, or sometimes just bring an account of it, how they first, in their lives, encountered a Native made, or a Native referring object. And this is fascinating, to them. I've had students bring things that they made, you know, like a little cardboard mask that they made in grade 4, some of them have kept, where they have a unit, in the BC school system, a unit on First Nations, or they'll bring...I don't know, maybe an engagement ring that they've got from a Native artist, or a graduation print, or something that's in their parents' home, or some kitschy object that they've picked up for a joke, you know, it could be anything. |
| [19,26] And they bring it to class and they talk about it to the class. And this, what this does, it makes them, makes the individual student, and their audience, go into their own biographies a little bit. Of encountering, and where there, what piqued their curiosity, or what made them realize perhaps, for the first name, not what they were going through, vis-�-vis a Native person, but what Native people were going through. So for many students, it's that's where I realized that there were these Native people out there, making a Cowichan sweater, let's say. How did, you know, my father happen to be wearing this Cowichan sweater that he had while I was a kid? That's what made me interested, and here I am in this class, I'm hoping to find out more. So I found that that was, that kind of conversation, it hits people at a comfort level, and yet the whole class can then query them, you know, and get into this relationship, the dynamic, um...I've had, the other thing I do, as you know, it's a very important part of my teaching, is to have First Nations speakers in the classroom, and although this is becoming less the case, it's still the case that there are people, students in the class who say, "this is the first time I've been," they tell me privately, often, "this is the first time I've been in a room with a First Nations person." |
| [19,27] That was a learning curve for me, I mean, the first time I heard that. I, you know, it takes you back to the ignorance, and the, "oh right, I've seen drunken Indians on the street but I knew there wasn't all there was," I've had that said to me more than, more than a few times. So, "thank you." I know, you don't know whether to laugh or cry. But these kids, some of them are not only very ignorant, but they're guileless, they're innocent. That's where it has to be. There's a long way to go. |
| [19,28] Karrmen: Um, so the techniques you've talked about, what do you think contributes to their success? For instance, bringing in the object, a piece to talk about, and bringing in a First Nations speaker, why do you think those are effective? |
| [19,29] Charlotte: Well they offer a level of...I hate to make a division between ideas and things, because actually I think ideas and things are, you know, they're two sides of the same coin, they're absolutely inseparable. I think bringing something, an object, something tangible from your own life is a kind of comfort, because there's some degree of familiarity with it, right, even if it's something you've just acquired. You personally brought it into the room, right, so you've got some kind of knowledge of it. It gives you some sort of authority to speak, even if it's "I bought this at a tourist shop," you know, you've engaged in it yourself. And I keep coming back to this ignorance, you know, a lot of it, a lot of prejudice, I think, arises out of the kind of fear that's borne of ignorance. And if you get people engaged or involved in apparently trivial sort of exchange like, there is nothing in my home or in my past, that, you know, I don't have a graduation print, I don't have a tattoo, I don't have the engagement ring or whatever it is, so I'll go to a tourist shop and I'll...buy a bottle opener with a totem pole on it or something and bring this in and wonder about it, but you know, there's something to hold onto, right. |
| [19,30] That may be...even if it makes the students laugh, or be derisory, at least there's something going that's a real life experience. Well I guess in a way it's the same with a real life walking...the numbers of different kinds of First Nations, if I can say kinds of First Nations artists, excuse me, but you know what I mean, it's important to bring weavers, and painters, and basket makers, and singers, and storytellers, and historians, so that the idea of "the Native artist" is troubled for them and made much more complicated, because what is this idea of an artist...I have to tell them a little bit about the history of the Western idea of an artist, and is that modeled in a work? Can that be applied? Are we now looking at a situation where the idea of an artist has been further complicated by cross-cultural exchange? Or what are we going to do with that, but you know, this person who's going to walk in and talk to you for a while, how are we going to make the word artist fit with them, or perhaps we aren't, and perhaps they will talk about that, and some of them say, "no, I'm not an artist, that's not the word I want to use for myself, and no I don't think of the things that I make as art, I'd rather not, I'm going to call them this and that," those are hugely important lessons for the students. |
| [19,31] In my course evaluations...it's very, very normal for the students to say, this was the highlight of the course. Having the opportunity to have class visitors, or you know, go to an exhibit, or go somewhere and meet First Nations people who are going to talk about a particular space, or um, you know, come to the Xwi7xwa Library, learn about different forms of classification, which is one of the things I do talk about, how knowledge is classified. But you come to this library, and you learn about the Deer system of classifying books and other materials, it's a real hands on, they can see what it means in terms of the locations of books and learning materials. Fabulous, they really appreciate that. Or to have Richard or whoever the person who does the tour of the Sty-Wet-Tan for us. Going around touching, very important, to see somebody touching these objects, it really brings it home. Personalizes. You know, we're all bodies in space, after all, and, um...I think all of these are, these are ameliorative moves, I'd say they're diffusing tactics. They draw students in, involve them, involve their bodies, and involve their own lives. |
| [19,32] And so, I'm not exactly answering your question, they're not exactly strategies for dealing with conflict when the conflict happens, they're more about drawing back and anticipating, you know, if we do more of this sort of thing, conflict is less likely to happen, it's going to, because the ignorance and the bewilderment that people feel when they're unsure of themselves and ignorant, it's going to be done away with, because they're going to be drawn into it. |
| [19,33] Karrmen: Has there been anything that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [19,34] Charlotte: I suppose, I think of myself as an instinctive kind of instructor, for better or worse, and I try to respond to different classes, and they all have their different dynamics, it just depends on the composition, it depends on who's there. I'm sure that I've made mistakes in terms of...you know, not always getting it right where...whatever dynamic there might be between the indigenous students and the others in class, of course I'm aware that not all indigenous students want to declare who they are, or what they are, or to play a role and yet others...do declare themselves and do want to play a role, but it's not always easy, and I'm sure, for me, and I'm sure I've got it wrong sometimes...the dynamic between, do you, Native student, want to speak now to this, or not. I try my best to...after all, we want to hear the Native voice, the Native voice has been suppressed for far too long, we know that, but we absolutely don't want to make the, put the student on the spot that they don't want to be on, or to make them the token Native. How horrible that would be, you know. And so, I'm sure that I put my foot wrong, sometimes, over the period that I've been teaching here, but presumably students know that the instructor is not infallible. |
| [19,35] And that the student too, the instructor too, can make mistakes, and I hope that over the course of the term, to earn their confidence, and their trust, and know that I'm not...you know, that if I have goofed, I'll find a way of putting it right. And I can stand correction, and that I'm just like everybody else in the class. This is what I try to say to start with, we're all in this together. We're all implicated in the history that's got us to this place, and that's made things as...grievous as it has for the indigenous population, particularly this province. We're all now implicated in the negotiations and the politics of the treaty process, or the arguments around whether there should be a treaty process or not, um...with how land claims get negotiated. I mean, we're all political beings, and I believe this, and, um...it's part of our duty as citizens to involve ourselves, to inform ourselves about what's going on. And actually that gets me to another point, I mean, I'm shocked at how apolitical students are on this campus, I mean, deeply shocked. I think the media are culpable...I mean, the mass media, absolutely miserable, I mean the newspapers in Vancouver are shocking, and I'm not just talking about Native issues, I'm talking about all kinds of issues that the student should be...active, should be coming to class sort of seething with interest and anxiety about things, and they seem pretty passive to me. |
| [19,36] And that's something that I have never become accustomed to. I find UBC a rather apolitical place, and it bothers me. |
| [19,37] Karrmen: Is that, like, in comparison to other campuses? |
| [19,38] Charlotte: Well, I suppose, I mean, I went to university in the 60's, in the UK, which was a time of great political turmoil, as you know, all over the place. I grew up thinking rightly or wrongly, perhaps it was a delusion, that students were radicals, in some way, and um...and that certainly they had a duty to be informed about what was going on, in their world, and to take action. And I still think that. And I, I'm...if students aren't bothering to inform themselves about what's happening in their world, cause they've got a little more time, a little more energy than many, perhaps, if they don't take advantage of that now, then when will they? When are they going to be useful and engaged citizens? And it bothers me, terribly. So, I mean, I do perhaps sometimes have a...maybe I'm aggressive, maybe I'm politically aggressive in the classroom, I don't know. And I have had that, from non-Native students, that I'm, you know..."oh, this is a very political class." Which strikes me, that...I know what they mean. Because I understand now, what UBC students are like. I don't actually preach political radicalism in the classroom, I don't think it's my place to do that, but they probably, by the end of the term, they've probably learnt my political views. |
| [19,39] Um...and I am using political in the widest sense, meaning, you know, power relations, and they do understand they I think Native art, broadly defined, as I try to define it and variously defined, depending on what kinds of...discursive differences is embedded in power relations. And I can't teach it any other way, you know, in conscience or...and that, for some people, that is "political," that is teaching politically. So be it, I accept the consequences. Believe me, I get it from the other side too, I get it from non-Native, well some Native students who think I'm over politicizing. |
| [19,40] Karrmen: And, they mean by over politicizing, that, bringing up...like, what are they considering political? |
| [19,41] Charlotte: Well, they're meaning that I am not neutral. That's what they're meaning, I think. And that Native art cannot be fully understood in a neutral setting. They will learn, for example, that, from me, that a gallery, a downtown gallery that has masks in it for sale, apparently in an anodyne fashion, so that these are beautiful detached objects that come no strings attached, right, it's just a beautiful thunderbird, right, end of story. $50 000, done, it's yours, you can take it home, right, and you buy a little story, probably a little bit of paper with a story on it, fine. And we're going to call that an apolitical transaction, are we? No, we're not going to call it an apolitical transaction, we're going to, you know, go back to the, we're going to count backwards through the sorts of history of the last 50, post war history, is one kind of thing, but there's a pre-war history, of commerce, around Native objects, which it's, I'm going to explain to them. So they will end up, and when the class isn't too big, I've taken them on gallery tours. And then they can hear different gallery people talking differently... |
| [19,42] about their relationship with First Nations artists, or non-First Nations artists, and how they display things, what their relationships are with their clients, how they publicize what they do...all sorts of things, so that the students get it for themselves, directly from other people and not always through me, so that they see there are, well I can keep using this term, power relations involved in the commerce of Native objects in British Columbia that's not neutral. So, I think they can see that. I hope that they'll see that. But not every instructor in Native art will go through those sorts of processes with them, and that's what some of them mean by being political. |
| [19,43] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation here improving at the moment? |
| [19,44] Charlotte: Well, I was thinking about that question, um, I've seen it change, I've seen it, I've taught here for 12 years now. Um...which isn't a very long time as things go, if I was to judge by the statements that the students give me, their introductory statements, you know, and their positioning, self-positioning, there's been change...few of them are likely to say "I want to learn about Native art because I believe Native people are closer to the earth than I am and I want to learn how to get close to the earth." That sort of really romantic and detached, that sort of imaginary, that kind of imaginary Indian picture. They're more complicated; they're more...slightly more realistic, perhaps, in what they're hoping to learn. They're less likely to be speaking from a kind of fantasy idea, I would say. For some people. Um...but still there's lots of fantasy out there, don't get me wrong. Um...but the one thing that hasn't changed is...is the level of non-knowledge that students bring to the classroom, but as I've said I try to anticipate that now and I do give...designate a class at the beginning of term, after the initial introductory session, we have a class which is devoted to getting some bare bones of the history in there. |
| [19,45] So we're not just referring to the Indian Act, I'm trying to teach them a bit about it, you know, what is involved, and I make sure they acquire a book, a history of indigenous British Columbia, for example. It didn't work if they didn't have that before. So I've learned to sort of deal head on with, often try to deal head on with the fact that there's just going to be these great big knowledge gaps. Some students come very sophisticated, of course, but, a lot of them aren't. So I've tried to anticipate that. Um.so that ignorance is there, um, I must say the university itself has been saying, has been making bold statements, or proactive statements ever since I've been here...and you'd want to see them delivering on that, I think, maybe there's more meaning coming out from behind those sort of blanket goodwill statements, um...yeah, I certainly hope so, cause I've heard a lot of them now, you know, from presidents, and from deans, and um...there's a lot of tokenist rhetoric, still, um, around...which we're all trying to give substance to, of course. I do my best, but...I mean it's like out there in the, in the wider public, and this... |
| [19,46] I mean, there's that useful expression of Michael Taussig's, the public secret, and I think indigenous history and the residential school, not just the residential school but all kinds of really extraordinary ways in which indigenous people have been identified and treated by the state...in Canada generally, in British Columbia particularly, the consequences of which are all around us, right, but the specifics of which is hardly known. That qualifies as a public secret. Incredible, intolerable, it goes on, it's all around in the public. And I don't think that that's got, in my view, I don't think that's better. And so I don't, now than it was 12 years ago. There's more talk, I'm not sure that's there's more action, there's more visibility of all sorts of things, but visibility as we know can act as a screen, and a mask that deflects from...pushes things, and you know, hides things, suppresses things; I'm very interested in how that screening process works. The mask that we're talking about, that beautiful thunderbird mask for sale in a downtown gallery apparently open for all to see, is a kind of screen, a kind of mask of a different sort. Um, yeah, so that's the wider polity, and so of course it's apparent in the university too, and in the classroom. |
| [19,47] Karrmen: What might the university do to provide a better context for these discussions? |
| [19,48] Charlotte: Well, I think the sorts of things, I think this initiative of yours is totally important, and the very fact that this is an area that hasn't been, you've just been telling me, this is an area that hasn't been an area that's been canvassed previously, the classroom dynamic, and what life in the classroom is like for indigenous students, hasn't been exposed before. Good. I mean, you're doing, having somebody in Linc's position, having a First Nations studies program, which is expanding, needs to expand, is a positive direction, it seems to me, which absolutely needs to be built on...I think you have to be...you know this, that it's a delicate matter, privileging indigenous students over others in certain kinds of ways can have an absolutely negative, um...what's the word...you know, reverse discrimination, what is it that happens, you know, that dynamic that happens, sorry, I'm now forgetting a key term, where... |
| [19,49] First Nations appear to be being favoured in some way, and then you hear, what about the x, what about the y, what about the z, you know, all these other needy people or groups or situations which exist. So finding a way of establishing the historical difference, you know, the historical, the specific histories of indigenous people, which do make indigenous peoples, and their history a special case in Canada. Making that clear, that's why the education comes in. It's not that there aren't other needy and discriminated against groups in Canada, there are. But there is undoubtedly a different history, today, and it's a history that's recognized as different now, by the state, right. But one thing I try to teach the students is that, what is it that we need state recognition. I mean, indigenous difference. Why do we need that, to get it. And this is where the way in which history is taught is so sort of...imbricated with a particular kind of mindset, it takes a long time to pull that apart. So, and this is very difficult stuff that we're engaged in here. Why I...it's wonderful really, to teach the art or the cultural history because you can cut through, say, constitutional recognition, and go back and say, look, it's written in the earth, right here, right where we are. We can go to Jericho, right, we can go to the Marpole site. |
| [19,50] We can see what's happened to the Marpole site, right. But here are the things that have been found from it. That cuts right through the invention of the Canadian state, right, and its legal systems that have recognized this, or recognized that, and you know, legislated this and that. It's important but through the objects, through the things written in the earth, we cut right through it, and find another kind of history. And that's, I think that's a fabulous lesson. And thoughtful students get it. And one of the great things about teaching is reading students' work as it improves through term, you know, seeing them thinking this stuff through, they're getting it. |
| [19,51] Karrmen: I guess the last question I have is um, what would you like to see happen next? |
| [19,52] Charlotte: That's a good question, and of course you could take it in a number of different ways. You know, in my own department, there's so much to learn, it's humiliating how little we understand, I mean, I mentioned indigenous languages. Finding ways of learning other languages, impossibly difficult as it may be, but I think that would be something of huge value. Having, there's a lot of recordings, fortunately, made of indigenous speakers, languages that have...are now very reduced if not extinct, there's still a lot of material out there that's been recorded in one way or another. Having that made more available, getting people to realize what the history of you know, the Americas is, is still accessible to us, through you know, recorded oral history in various ways. We're nowhere with that, we're like this with that at the moment. You know, we've got a Greece and a Rome to understand, it's just not on most people's horizons at the moment, just waiting to happen. If that was understood, it's not going to erase prejudice overnight, but it's going to lead to a much greater appreciation of these incredible, incredible civilizations about which so little is known. Will that do for an ideal? |
| [19,53] Karrmen: I think so. |
| [19,54] Charlotte: I mean, I'm so aware that the things we look at and talk about, I just...you know, it's a clich�, but they're like tips of an iceberg. A way into cosmologies, a ways into understanding of the world that we're all much so poor of and only having tiny, tiny inklings of. So opening that possibility to students, getting them to think that way, so that when they leave a classroom, you know, they want to go and find out more, they'll go somewhere to learn some of this and make a difference, that would be, that would be wonderful. As well as you know, on the local, and particular, political level, making them better informed so that they'll all go out and become more informed about the local realities for individual First Nations people in Vancouver right now. You know, I mean, I think that's a ideal too, a goal to understand what this is all about, and if something that they've learnt in the classroom will encourage that, then that would be good too. So, that's not exactly micro level, but it's a local, individual, personal life thing, and then there's the macro, you know, go and find out what you don't know about a cosmology, one of the thousands, and see what you can learn. |
| [19,55] Karrmen: Well, I'm out of questions, but I don't know if there was anything that you wanted to add that I haven't asked. |
| [19,56] Charlotte: Um...I would just say that, do you...what were you saying over the break, I hope I haven't, in my enthusiasm, which I hope comes across, I'm enthusiastic about this field...it's not a field, this area of endeavour. That I'm...and my own sense of privilege to be having anything to do with it, and knowing so little, and yet I am an instructor, and that is a sort of...a weirdness, but in talking about those things, I haven't glossed over the very real, daily difficulties that indigenous people go through, which a lot of my First Nations students, I'm happy to say, share with me. I mean, I have a student and her partner who were dancing, performing, on, as they do, all over the place, they were on Bowen Island, and um, they left the hallway they had been performing in still wearing their regalia, and they bumped into somebody who said, "oh, I guess Halloween's come early this year." I was told about this, you know, thank you for telling me, of course, but this is what I mean by the absolute, hit you between the eyes reality, that I hope nothing that I've said will gloss over. Cause I know that's there. And worse than that, of course. And um, you know, we must talk about it. |
| [19,57] That's what we must do. What will I do, I will tell the other students, we tell the other students. This is what has to be faced. Now what are you going to do about that. |
|
Linc Kesler |
| [20,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion that you typically encounter in the classrooms or in your work place? |
| [20,2] Linc: About? |
| [20,3] Karrmen: Aboriginal issues. |
| [20,4] Linc: Oh, it's quite variable I would say. I think my work circumstances are of course somewhat different. Since teaching in First Nations Studies Program and those are core issues. If there's a problem with the level of discussion, then it's typically my problem as an instructor for not getting things going to a better... developing towards a more satisfactory level. So that's something I would see as a major responsibility that I have as a professor in the program. On the whole, I think we make some good progress in setting some kind of a frame for discussion. But a lot of it depends on the group of people and how far people...what their base is and how far they can go in the framework of discussion. So every group is different. |
| [20,5] Karrmen: What do you think are the most difficult aspect of teaching or discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [20,6] Linc: I think one of the most difficult aspect is that everybody walks into the discussion of whatever those issues are with some kind of a sense of who they are relative to the issues but it's often not one that they have occasion to articulate a lot. That's certainly true of people that are not Aboriginal and haven't had some reason to think about it in a lot of detail and many times people who are in that situation might be really reluctant to say something because they feel that they don't know how to approach the issues. Sometimes people I think feel very strongly about the issues and in that sense they feel that they do have a place that they are working from. But they are not necessarily always fully equipped to articulate that. And I think that's often the case with people who do come from Aboriginal backgrounds as well. The issue is something they know very well and feel very intensely at an experiential level. And have a way to talk about among their friends or family and community but the kind of discussion which happens in a classroom is in some respects different than that in a couple of ways, which I do have some further thoughts on. They may not have everything already in place to have that discussion either. |
| [20,7] So I think one of the real issues is giving people the opportunity to think through the issues and developing the vocabulary in their way of talking. One of the things that's very different about talking about those issues in classrooms than it might be, let's say, for people in their families is that when people are speaking in a community or in a family there's a whole set of shared reference points that they can count on and base their discussion from. So they can say things that will be very clear to other family members or community members in context. But if they were to say that in a group of people that's more diverse, for many of the people who would be part of that discussion, they may not have automatic meanings or it may sound like they are saying something quite different than what they are intending to say because those people are coming at it from a different referential context. So I think one of the big challenges in the classroom is to, on one hand, make people aware of the fact that there is not yet a shared... when you walk into the classroom, there's not yet a shared frame of reference or a shared context in which to have those discussions but that a lot of the work, preliminary work of the class, is in trying to find that or develop that over time so that people then have to realize that they cannot assume that the shorthand that they might use among their friends to talk an issue is going to be understood well in the context of that of the classroom discussion. |
| [20,8] So a lot of care has to go to be able to fully articulate what people mean when they say something in a way that's going to communicate, or build a way to communicate to other people who are part of that discussion. And I think one of the things that's really difficult about that is that everybody feels, for instance, that their identity is clear to them and therefore they should be able to make it clear to other people and that can be done fairly quickly with a couple of statements, you know, announcing, for instance, who they feel themselves to be in this situation. But those kinds of very what seem like automatic and self-evident statements don't work in that context because they're not necessarily as meaningful to other people as they are to the person who's saying them. So that means that when people are talking about who they are or what they bring to the discussion they have to find ways to explain it to people who have not a frame of reference for it. Most people haven't really had a lot of practice in doing that. And so I think that's where a lot of those discussions really need to start. |
| [20,9] If there is a good way to do that and a good basis can be established and people feel that when someone is saying that they don't understand, that it's okay to question, not in a sense of challenging it, but ask for a more complete explanation, I think it's possible to get into a much more productive discussion fairly quickly. But I think there has to be a premise, the premise has to be nothing can be presumed to communicate automatically or self-evidently. |
| [20,10] Karrmen: What experiences have you had in the classroom or in your professional role that have been particularly memorable? |
| [20,11] Linc: Oh it's a long list. It's a very long list. Um... and I don't know it might help to think about different categories or whatever. Again, I think one of the things that, I've taught here in Canada and I went to graduate school in Canada and it's one environment for these kinds of discussions. And I also grew up in the States and spend a good part of my professional life in the States. The environments are a bit different. Some of the things that come out of them are quite different as well. I think I was really surprised to some extent in my first full-time teaching job as a professor how quickly... I was not hired to teach First Nations studies, I was hired to teach English with specialties in early modern period and linguistic theories, so things quite far removed and in the obvious way from questions of ethnicity. But I was surprised how quickly I found myself immersed in those issues without any particular intent to be immersed in them. I thought that was really interesting. And to some extent I think for me in a lot of ways in terms of my teaching career, what was interesting was that those just became more and more explicit over time and... |
| [20,12] I was about to say less avoidable, I hadn't really intended to avoid them, I just hadn't been thinking that they would end up being so much of the focus of what I ended up doing. The whole process in which that happened was... had many memorable moments. I think another thing I would just want to identify because I think it's typical of a lot of people's circumstance and talking about it might as well from my perspective might as well begin with me. When I first started really working in a professional way with race and ethnicity issues, I didn't really have a particularly good vocabulary to talk about it. I had some life experiences of one sort or another and I had a lot of informal vocabulary for talking about it. But I didn't really have a very developed way of talking about it in a more professional context and actually that coupled with the fact that I had very strong personal feelings about the issues and also things in my past that were important or memorable but sometimes had a lot of emotional weight attached to them that I hadn't really spoken about. Sometimes when I found myself talking, you know I was saying things, I was hearing myself say for the first time and that's a very disconcerting feeling to have in a professional situation. I have to say it resulted in one or two occasions of what in hindsight are quite hilarious incidents although at the time they weren't particularly jolly I would say. |
| [20,13] Oh yeah, and now you want to know what they were. They were just identifying the way that I saw people responding to things or the way I felt about something or realize... in one case I was recounting a point in my own history where it was sort of a moment where I felt myself sort of coming to a certain consciousness about things, and it was a point where I particularly had a strong feeling about something and I identified that. I think it kind of surprised people because I was identifying a moment of anger really, and people don't really know how to deal with that a lot of times, I think. I think people when they are talking about a lot of the issues that we end up talking about do have a lot of anger about them. I mean, that's a very common circumstance in my professional life to be dealing with people who are articulating in a formal setting for the first time the anger that they have surrounding issues. Finding a way to say that in which you can both indicate that the anger is an important part of what you are dealing with but then also find a way to talk about it so that it doesn't simply seem abrupt or threatening to people that you are trying to communicate with is quite a challenge. |
| [20,14] Let's just say that I wasn't always... I don't think any of us sort of come out of the box in these conversations good at doing that and we don't receive professional training typically in how to do it. So at least in my generation a lot of us found our way through it by doing it but that had its rough moments I would say. |
| [20,15] Karrmen: So as an instructor here, you were saying that you encounter those moments in classrooms as well, not maybe specifically but... |
| [20,16] Linc: Sure. I think it's really... I think I'm at a different place myself with respect to a lot of those issues than I was when I first started working with them in a professional setting. So I hope I am a little more practiced at it and a little calmer in my approach than I have on previous occasions been from time to time. But I certainly don't expect that of people who are students in classes. My assumption is that many people have not had much opportunity to work in the kind of form that the class presents in any way with those issues, and that if some of them are things that they do have really strong feelings about then that's going to be an issue in a discussion. And that raises a lot of questions, first for the person who's trying to express whatever that feeling is and figure out how it fits to the conversation. It's a real issue for them because there's a lot of exposure involved in showing that you do have a strong emotional response to something that you are talking about. But then it's also an issue to other people because they are witnessing someone who's exposing a strong feeling of some sort. They are going to be responding to it no matter what. That's part of what happens when you are in a room with that kind of discussion taking place. |
| [20,17] Trying to figure out what sensible way to respond to those issues when they have that kind of discussion when it has that kind of emotional valence is something I think everybody needs to learn to have a productive conversation. But again, it's not something that people necessarily have a lot of practice in doing and you don't... figuring out the really good way to do that is difficult and I don't think classrooms are, can be or should be primarily therapeutic environments. I think mainly we're not, that's not the purpose and most of us lack the training to do that well anyway, and probably it, well mainly I think the issue is it's just not what the classroom is there for. But being able to work with things that do have, people feel strongly about and have a good conversation about which is important to the subject matter is very important. So they're finding the right balances a challenge. |
| [20,18] Karrmen: In your time as an instructor have you encountered particularly difficult or challenging situations in classrooms? |
| [20,19] Linc: Yeah, I encountered all kinds of them, from students who are, in my previous job I taught classes which satisfied some requirements even, you know they are the ones centered around American Indian materials, primarily literature. But they also satisfied requirements, students were taking the classes in some cases were quite hostile to the subject matter, and were hostile to the fact that they have to take the class for the requirement, so they can be quite challenging and very abrupt in stating the nature of their challenge, provocative. Dealing with that I think that's very difficult. It's a very difficult thing to do. Because on one hand, probably the worst response is simply to respond in kind of an authoritarian way to tell someone that the kind of objection they are raising is inappropriate or something like that. They way in which they are stating things, or the intent of their challenge may in fact be, inappropriate is not the kind of a way I think of it, but they may be things which are designed to disrupt the orderly progress of a class, but they also represent the way people feel obviously, the way those students feel, and they represent a segment of the population that may feel that way too, whether it's a large one or a small one. |
| [20,20] I think finding some way to work with that in which the fact that people do feel that kind of hostility is acknowledged, and identified and maybe looked at a bit more useful. But it's very difficult to do because the challenge is a very serious one, so that's kind of one extreme of difficult situation. I think the other one is having someone in the class who's talking, you're in the middle of talking about something and somebody have a very strong reaction to it. I was teaching a class once and it was not one that had anything to do with Indigenous issues, it was actually a Chinese literature in translation was what we were reading. But we were reading a book that had pretty graphic descriptions of World War II in it. There was a woman in the class who had some very disturbing experiences who reacted very strongly to one of the depictions in the book and that was really a difficult thing to deal with. Because it raised a lot... the immediate situation of her distress was right there. But then it also raised a lot of questions about the way literature, for instance, uses materials like that and what are its functions is in the context of teaching in a class, and all other kinds of things like that. I would say for me personally one of the most difficult experiences I had was I was teaching a class that had about 70 people in it. |
| [20,21] And that was one of the classes that had, was satisfying requirements. I would say half of the class was pretty unsympathetic to the class and its premises. I think by the end of the class, it was working pretty well for a lot of people and there were probably of course some people that didn't want to be there. But this was early on in the class and we were reading a novel and I think it was one of the Louise Eridrich's novels but it was one in which a lot of issues were at play that had to do with transmission of cultural knowledge from generation to generation under conditions of oppressive circumstances of communities being brought under and, this was the novel place in the States under kind of military control and so forth was the subject. It really triggered for me in a very unexpected way while I was talking a memory of something that happened, that sort of a feature in my own family and I got to the middle of the sentence and I couldn't talk. I was hanging on by my fingernails to not really have a severe emotional reaction. It's not really where you want to be in front of a not terribly sympathetic audience having that reaction because it's a moment of absolutely unplanned vulnerability. |
| [20,22] And it's one in which, professors are in some sense an authority figures in classrooms, more importantly, you are the one who's on deck, you are the performer and to suddenly be in that kind of debilitated state in front of a room full of people like what was pretty tough. And it didn't resolve fast. I mean it was a couple of minutes of me trying to get a handle on it and move on, so that was very difficult. But like the finding yourself saying something that is coming out more forcefully or less...more bluntly that one might hope under the best circumstances I think it's kind of the price of doing business in this field. It's part of the building of the discourse, and to the extent that we are successful at creating a climate where people develop ways of talking about these issues, then people have had that experience when they are in those professional situations in some later point are going to be better prepared to work through those kind of situations. I think that's what the job is: to develop the discourse. |
| [20,23] Karrmen: So in those situations in your class and somebody is expressing a particular very strong reaction or emotion to whatever is talked about, have there been situations that you run into, like how have you addressed the situation or how do you do that in a class when... |
| [20,24] Linc: Well, I think one of the... I don't know, I think what a professor can do in those circumstances whatever happens is to first exert little control over the pace at which things are happening if something is happening that's really clearly difficult. And it can happen very quickly. I think one of the things, one of the skills that's probably important to try to develop is the way to have some control over the fow of events. If somebody is in the middle of saying something, which is very important to them but it's very emotional and very difficult and maybe disclosing more than they ought to disclose in a room full of people they don't know. That can be very difficult, you know, intervening a little bit in just slowing that down, maybe give them a breather or a chance to reorient themselves to the situation is probably ideally what I at points have wanted to do. It's very dangerous however sometimes to just interrupt someday who's doing that. You don't want them to feel they've done something terribly wrong and they should stop talking and never do that again. That's not the point. |
| [20,25] But at the same time, developing some kind of a frame surrounding what they are telling people, what they're sharing of their experiences, thinking about what it means in the context of the class and how they can address the circumstance in which they're in for what it is and in some cases, maybe not continue with what they are saying because it's really the wrong place to do it. I don't know, I think what's challenging about that kind of situation is that every situation is different and coming up with a response to something that happens in the moment. But I think that's one aspect of it and dealing with...and the same thing can be true, for instance, you have a student who starts saying things that's quite offensive and seem to be on the roll with it. And they can be offensive, it can be non-Aboriginal student for instance kind of doing a very generalized attack on Aboriginal people in some way. Or it can be an Aboriginal person who's expressing a lot of anger towards the non-Aboriginal people in the class. It can be any of those things. Again, I think the difficult thing is to recognize that the person, whatever they are saying, they are saying for a reason. It is a position in the circumstance and it is something worth considering because it is something someone feels, but that there needs to be a frame for how that position can be considered. Yeah, no, I think the hard thing is figuring out the right place to begin contextualizing or setting a frame for it. |
| [20,26] And it's a pretty delicate business. You don't want just to have someone stop saying something like that and turn to the class say, "what do you think about that?" Because you are not running a shock talk show on TV. You really try to develop up a way to think through the issues. On the other hand, seeing the professor's role as one that domesticates whatever response gets stated and makes it safe to talk about it or sort of moves on from it into some safer territory is really not quite the response either because it runs the risk of trivializing whatever response the person has brought to the discussion. So I think it's a pretty subtle mix. |
| [20,27] Karrmen: Are there any particular techniques or strategies that you've used that you found to be very effective? |
| [20,28] Linc: I think probably the most critical thing is really to try to hear what the person is saying and try to understand where they're coming, what it's coming from in their understanding of things and to try to work with that in a way in which is again, it's almost equally difficult whether you are sympathetic to the position or whether you are really not sympathetic to it in a case for instance where clearly they are trying to provoke people in the room and me as an instructor as well. But I think coming to it as directly as possible, trying to really understand what the person is really saying and then trying to work it into the context of what the class is for, what the nature of the discussion is, what the opportunity for the discussion is in the class is sort of the way to do it. I wish I can be more specific about what that meant, but I usually don't know what it means until I'm in the middle of it and trying to field it. I just... it's hard and I wouldn't say that it worked out terribly well every time I tried to do that either any more than any other thing is teaching. |
| [20,29] Karrmen: I guess this may be hard to answer as well then. But are there anything you've tried in classrooms that you wouldn't try again? Maybe coming out of a particular situation or something that happened in the classroom? |
| [20,30] Linc: You know I feel like I should have a good answer to that because I've tried almost everything that I can think of, and some things have certainly worked better than others. But they are so situational that it's really hard to sort of come up with "I would never to this again" as a response. I guess one thing really from a professor's standpoint, is that I think it is important to connect out of, if part of what, you are talking about issues in which people's experience are, experience of the issues are critical, and that's probably everybody in the classroom's experience of it, and you are talking always about, I believe, about the way people in the room are interacting with each other at some level whether you are addressing that directly or in the process of talking about issues. It's... you have to speak out of your position and sometimes that involves talking about your own experiences. But think because the professor's position in the room is somewhat different than the other participants, because you are the person who's setting the frame and ultimately the person who's evaluating work. You do run the danger of over-personalizing, I think that can be kind of a problem. |
| [20,31] You have to negotiate the boundary between your personal experience and where that locates you in the discussion and being kind of clear about that because I think it is important to do that to some degree. Or at least I found it useful, I think maybe other people could find another way to do it, but to do that in a way which isn't over-personalizing, and I think there have been times, that would been something that I've done on occasions that I would avoid again. |
| [20,32] Karrmen: What happens? Or what did happen in this situation? |
| [20,33] Linc: I think the big danger in it is, it makes it too much... it's not so much the personal vulnerability of admitting something that happened to you or the way you felt about something like that and that's not to me the issue with it. Because I think there are times where that can be important and in the fact for anybody in those discussions to do. But I think if you're the professor or the instructor, you don't want the class to be about you. You don't want to be over-personalized to that degree and you don't want to be sort of dramatizing your own position in things more than necessary to do your job, because you are the person who is there to do a job. I mean, everybody is to some extent but it's the nature if the situation but you are the person who is responsible for setting the parameters in that discussion to some degree. So I think there's a little more of a responsibility there to really know how to negotiate that boundary. You are allegedly the professional. But that's the kind of professional skill which I think teachers negotiate all the time because teachers are always redefining the boundaries between their professional affect in the class and the fact that there's a person there and you want to be able to connect with people to some degree, on a person-to-person level. |
| [20,34] When you are talking about this kind of stuff, one that involves where everybody is coming from, and again going back to the incident I mentioned earlier when I remembered something from my own family that had much more of a resonance than I was prepared to deal with in that situation, there's a lot more of that at play than there is talking about a lot of other subjects. So I think again, that's some place where negotiating that fairly clearly is important. It's also a way in which you can demonstrate to other people an approach, not necessarily the one that's going to be most helpful to them, but in a way which it's clear that you are trying to do that because it's part of dealing with the issues. So I don't think that should be a hidden aspect of the way a professor works in a classroom around those discussions. I think in some respects, it's not the worst thing to let people know that it's something that you are working hard to develop a way of being in the room that's productive and the way of having a discussion which is productive because that's what you are asking them to do and it's important for them to know that to whatever extent they perceive you as having a level of skill or comfort with that, if you've been lucky enough to develop it enough to convince them of course, that it wasn't something you were born with necessarily. |
| [20,35] One of my... people that I learned a lot from, I think one of the best things that that guy did for me at one point was to tell me at an earlier point in his life he'd been very different in the way he talked about things because this was somebody who always seemed very calm and kind of in control at least of his own way of being, at in sometimes what were really contentious discussions and negotiations and I really admired the way he was able to talk about things. When he told me that he previously really had some difficulties in very similar situations when he was younger, it helped me a lot. Because it made me understand that it was something that he has worked for. He worked hard to be able to be, to talk about things in a way, which was more effective and in his case, in a sense, calmer and it made me feel less despairing that I at some point might be able to do that too. So I think as a teacher that's one thing allowing people to understand that it is the job of the class is to find a way to talk about things is about a beneficial thing, because it makes it okay to try things, but it makes it clear that if they don't work, you want to take notice of that, if they do work, you want to take notice of it. But it's all with the intention of finding a better way to talk about it and getting further in the discussion. |
| [20,36] I think the risk is part of the work, management of risk, keeping the risk at an acceptable level but keeping an awareness to the fact that talking about things of this sort that we end up talking about does involve risk on personal level and also on just in the context of the whole conversation and that is not a bad thing, I mean it's a bad thing if it goes terribly wrong. But on the other hand, to make it a risk-free environment is probably to not be doing some of the things that need to happen. So a lot of people talk about creating a "safe classroom environment" to have the kind of discussions about identity or intercultural communications and so forth and I think that that's a useful way to think about it because an unsafe environment is all too common and really tends to work very differentially to some people's disadvantage and that's certainly something we don't want to replicate. But it's also not completely in my frame of reference that what we want to create is a situation of absolute comfort either. I think that discussions are not always, cannot always be conducted in a way in which is going to be comfortable for everyone. |
| [20,37] I think it's more important to keep a focus on what we are trying to accomplish and making sure that things are going in a way which is working broadly for people in which the risks are there but they're also manageable, and in which it is possible to go forward, not without error but with a way to try things and recover from the things that don't work fairly quickly and if possible have everyone's cooperation in a common project which is finding a better way to talk about things and developing useful approaches. I think that's something you can come back to if you get to a point where things have got to kind of a fraught place just going back to, what are we trying to do here? What is the conversation we are trying to have? What just happened and relate to that. How can we do that better or what can we get out of it? What could we get out of some exchange that just happened can help us develop a better way to work. It is a way you can take risks and recover from them and keep things going in a good direction. But I think there are always going to be conversations after class with people for whom a class period that just happened didn't work out in a way that was helpful for them. |
| [20,38] I think it's really important to keep that open and listen to what people are saying and find a way to walk into the next class with some way of approaching that, an acknowledgement that there were difficulties in the last conversation and that this is what, from my standpoint, this is what I have ended up thinking about that, propose some kind of way of addressing it see what other people have as well. I guess I'm also thinking that... and this is the way I've approached teaching in general even when I was teaching some pretty straightforward course in grammar theory or something where we weren't really dealing with things that were too emotional other than potential confusion and boredom. But I think it really helps to approaches the classes in some respect, that it is a group action and we're all trying to get somewhere with some kind of conversation and that it's not the authority of the teacher in the classroom, has real limits as far as that goes. If you are the teacher you walk in with a set of information or knowledge or experience of working with that topic. But that's not the point of the class and it's not the point of the class just dumping that out on the table for people to do or don't do as they will. The real point of the class is developing a way to work with whatever the subject is as a group where everybody can take something out of it that's useful. |
| [20,39] And now it's a little idealistic but it actually works more often than that, at least for me as a way of thinking about it. |
| [20,40] Karrmen: So how long have you been in UBC for? |
| [20,41] Linc: I've been here for 5 and-a-half years. |
| [20,42] Karrmen: So you've been teaching in Canada for 5-and-a-half? |
| [20,43] Linc: Right. I taught here when I was in grad school as well, but that was a long time ago. |
| [20,44] Karrmen: I don't know if this is the most appropriate question, but maybe it is, I'm thinking of UBC. In your time teaching here, have you seen the classroom situation improving? |
| [20,45] Linc: I think... well... I'm sure, I know that you've heard this from other people as well, professors always talk about their own classroom but not about everybody's classroom because these are the classes we see. But I have a couple of thoughts on that. One of them is I think in my classrooms the situation has improved because of course when I came here, the First Nations Studies Program was only starting so we were really trying out different curricular ideas and ways of having discussions. For me I was reorienting, I never worked in Pacific Canada before. So there was a local, a set of local issues, but also just how people thought about things in this part of the world was not familiar to me. It had been 20 years since I have been in Canada at all in any prolonged basis. So regaining the sense of context for Aboriginal issues took some time. But we were also just trying out what would work with the students who were enrolling in the program and I think over time, I hope anyway, our curriculum has become better defined and has provided better platform for lot of those kind of discussions. |
| [20,46] That's my hope and it seems to me that it has, but I also think in terms of how I've heard other professors talk about it in meetings I go to where issues get described a little bit or what I hearing from other students coming through the program and other classes, I think it is getting better at least sort of the area of the Arts faculty. I think part of that is not so much because of the specific characteristics of the First Nations Studies Program but the fact that it exists. The reason why I think that's important is because...and I've seen this happen before and talked to other people who said the same thing, when there is an awareness among other faculty that there is a place where the kind of issues that we consider important are talking about directly, even if they have very little contact with the program or the way in which discussions happen in the program, they are aware of the fact that the issues that the program addresses are being taken seriously by somebody at the university. People are talking about these things, they, people have opinions about them and they begin to increasingly articulate what those opinions are. Therefore it becomes less possible for other faculty to simply not think about it at all, it's not invisible anymore, it's become visible. So there's something there to respond to and there's a consciousness that there are groups of people who are thinking about these things and are forming opinions about them. |
| [20,47] For faculty who are working in areas where there might be some overlap with Aboriginal concerns, of course in my opinion, it's a very wide area but it takes a while for people to understand that fully. There is the awareness that people are thinking about it and that they are developing positions when they say something in the class, it's now in the context... students in the class have an interpretive context for hearing what they are saying that's not a vacuum in which whether the students think what they're saying makes sense of not is a real issue. It's not just they can say it and of course it makes sense because they are professors saying it. It's professors saying it in a context what other students and professors are saying and developing in a concerted way. So I think that has a good effect. It's not so much that it makes other faculty particularly nervous, it just makes them aware of the fact that there's a context for thinking and the subjects. And there's a potential for, there's a potential to have a more developed discourse and with that goes the responsibility to have a more developed discourse and if they don't do that, it's likely to become increasingly noticeable that it's not one of their strengths. So you know in that sense, there's a motivation to think through the issues in a little more detail and maybe develop a more informed opinion on things that people might otherwise just not take the time to do. |
| [20,48] I think that's potentially positive. There's also been much more concerted effort in happening in kind of administrative levels to bring some real attention to Aboriginal issues to the extent that it is communicated more widely to faculty at probably that also has a some kind of, I would hope, positive effect. I think students are becoming perhaps a bit more vocal because they are not quite as isolated as they were probably were 5 or 10 years ago. Because there is a place to talk and there is a discussion of issues and therefore may be more of a platform at which to state opinions in classes in ways that have a positive, more likely to have a positive effect. On the other hand, I don't want to make it sound like there isn't a lot of work to do here because I think there is. I just think that would be true in any institution, really in any institution. It may be true in a different way in any tribal college but it is certainly true in a public university. One of the things that, and I'm sure I would be surprised if other people haven't mentioned this, but I think one of the things that professors often encounter very quickly in any kind of discussion where, you know a lot of the problematic history that surrounded Aboriginal people in Canada or American Indians or other minorities in the US, when any of those discussions come up, a lot of times somebody is going to say, "well, I'm not a racist, I didn't do this. I am a white person, but I didn't oppress your people. I don't have slaves." In some ways it's a very predictable kind of response. |
| [20,49] It's hard if you are coming from the background of one of the minority group or disenfranchised groups, it's hard not to find that kind of statement very aggravating, but it's an important one, I believe it's an important one not to respond to hostilely. But it is possible to point out to people that, yeah you know, you as an 18 year old student are not responsible, if you are living in the States, you are not responsible for slavery. If you live in Canada, you are not responsible for residential schools, like nobody asked you whether there should be residential school in the last couple hundred years, but everybody who's in the room is responsible for the present. The present is we've inherited a set of circumstances and in many respects a set of problem or challenges however you want to think about them that come from that past. Therefore understanding that past and how things have come to the point where they are here is part of understanding how we might progress in the situation and get to a place with it. But this is our moment, this is our society to shape and what we do now in the class or at any point really matters in that context and kind of understanding how people, how we arrived in a certain position, what configures this circumstance we're in now, how people feel about things, why do they feel the way they do about them, is all just basic information and trying to understand where we can go from this point. |
| [20,50] So it's all pretty relevant on that level but it's not necessarily something that we understand well. Same thing is true for institutions, the minority, the racialized minority concerns, certainly Aboriginal concerns in Canada are not well represented in most of the curriculum. We do not get students coming to us who understand Aboriginal history or understand, in my opinion, Canadian history because they certainly don't understand the Aboriginal part of the Canadian history. In that sense they are dealing with a history which is at best incomplete, at worst deceptive. Part of our job over time is to change that circumstance so they come here with a better understanding of some basic information which will allow us to work, to have all kinds of better conversations at all kind of level. I know this is kind of a basic thought, but when you think about what a student has who walks into a first year university math class, they typically have 12 years of formal education in math which has taken through a whole set of stages so that they are able to work with advanced materials. They understand what an algebraic equation is, they probably understand what a quadratic equation is or they know how to do calculus and they can just go from that standpoint and work at an advanced level in that field. |
| [20,51] When students come to university with no knowledge of Aboriginal history in any way that adequately addresses certain circumstances of Aboriginal people, and we are now going to talk about those issues and talk about what needs to happen next in our current situation or what the meaning of land claims is or what structure, or how Aboriginal identity are structured in government policy. These are important topics but they have no bases in their educational background to deal with it very effectively because they have not had that information all the way along. It is not been developed from an early age and that's a huge deficit we are trying to address. But it's also a moment in history, it's the situation we have to face and make some progress on and hope that in the future we will have built in a kind of infrastructure which allows people to have much more informed discussion about that, and of course, if we were to get that it would be because many other things have changed as well and we probably be having very different conversations in many ways but that is our moment I guess and circumstance to address. |
| [20,52] Karrmen: So what can the university do to provide a better context for these discussions? |
| [20,53] Linc: I'm laughing partially because, here I am in a long pause thinking about that and I've been thinking about nothing else for quite a while and right in the moment I'm on a committee that's working on a strategic plan for Aboriginal initiatives. I feel like I should just have a list of things I can rattle off but I think, in some respects, some of the things that universities can do, some of them are very specific and they require allocation of resources and some of them are really more about, are not so much resource based they are much more about in the approach. One of the experiences that I had in my last job was watching the way in which the culture of the university really went through some changes. I'm not sure... I think one of the things that's really worth understanding about that is anyone who has worked in this field professionally will tell you that things come and go. You make progress at a certain time and you see some of the progress that eroded at another time. If you, in a case of a university I think when I was working at my last job, we had an administration at one point that was, we had a really good working relationship with them, by "we" I meant kind of the minority faculty. |
| [20,54] I guess I should note that in the context of the US at the time we, thinking of ourselves as minority faculty, some people didn't particularity like the term and it was a fairly common one. It was African Americans, Latinos, American Indians, Alaskan Natives and Asian Americans, so it's kind of groups that had been in one way or the other that had been disenfranchised in the US social and political processes. But anyway, we as a group of faculty and other people who were interested in these issues I think had a really good working relationship with them, developed one with one of our administrations. The university really during that time established itself I think as a pretty positive place to be a minority faculty, person or student. I'm not sure how well that was sustained through subsequent changes in the administration there so I don't know. I sort of get a sense maybe it was not quite as good as it was previously but as changes happen, if one is interested in advocating for those changes and become part of them I think the trick is to make the changes as structurally integrated as possible so they don't depend on it as much on a particular configuration of people. But anyway, that's I guess kind of a digression. One of the things that happened there was that the university became much more responsive to understanding the position of students and faculty from those groups. |
| [20,55] We were for instance, this was the university in which in some respect a bit unlike UBC in that the a lot of the tensions over the racial issues tended to be out front, they tend to be more public. So every year we had, it was unusual for a year to go by in which there weren't an incident, which is sort of explicitly racial and public and made the newspaper kind of a thing. So in some ways those things were much more identifiable. Well when I first went to that university, it was very common for something to happen and for there to be no response from the university or if there was a response it would be several days later and it would be you know a fairly generic response to whatever the incident was. The effect of that was for people that were the targets for those attacks or similar groups, people really felt isolated by them and they felt alone and they really felt there was a lot of uncertainty surrounding their positions and that I think it's well documented in people's personal circumstances how that can affect somebody in their life as a student or as a professor. It's destabilizing and it takes up a lot of time and energy out of whatever it is you are doing and it's very costly in those terms for the person and for the group. That was something that we worked very hard to make visible to people and to make them aware of and I think one of the results is we began really having much more productive interactions with their administration and with other faculty and really began building that consciousness. |
| [20,56] One thing happened was the administration began to respond very quickly to incidents when they happened so something would happen and it would be addressed in a formal explicit way by high university officials, typically in that case the president. The next day. There would be a formal statement being made to the media in front of an assembly of some sort about what happened and what the university policy was on it and what steps were being taken to address the circumstance, and the effect of that was very noticeable. I think for the students and faculty members it was, the sense of isolation was not nearly as aggravated. People felt that the university was not so much on their side in the sense the university was becoming kind of an antagonist in some big cultural debate but that the university was taking its responsibility, that these were meaningfully events not just the people who were just the targets but to the university as a whole. The university was confronting as an institution its position and its responsibility in what was taking place and was taking a position and was making clear what that position was. Really what the university was indicating is that it was doing its job in that respect and that those things mattered. I think the effect of that was people got back to work and they felt that things were being taken care of. |
| [20,57] You know that didn't cost a lot of money. What it cost for the university was, it did cost, it did involve risk and it did involve investment but largely of a political sort. This was in a state which was I would say not have a great history in terms of racial tolerance and for the university to take a position like that did risk angering some of its constituencies, some of the people in state legislature, potential donors. You know they were taking some risk on that, they didn't know how much risk they were taking I think so they were very circumspect about it at first. And I think one of the things that happened as they began doing it was they did get some pushback who were not very racial tolerant and didn't want to see what they interpret as being activist posture from the university. But I think people adjusted to it fairly quickly and I think a lot of people no matter what their political affiliation or their view of those kinds of issues might have been, I think what people began to understand was that the university was operating in a way that was responsible and efficient. That rather than spending a lot of time in the acrimony that resulted from these incidents, by taking a clear position early on and doing its job in a civil society type terms the university was moving through those instances in a way that was pretty positive for everybody and was much less drag on the whole system and that the university as a whole seemed healthier for having done it. |
| [20,58] I think the opposition to that was not nearly as serious as people feared it might be and the payoff was very high. People's opinions of the university generally improved for them doing that. It was a risky maneuver on their part of the administration but one I think paid off and it had to do with their commitment to take it seriously to incur the political cost to making it a concern and sticking with it. But it I think it worked for them and it certainly worked for us and it gave a way forward on all kind of initiatives where discussion could happen on a much better pace. That's something the university can do is to set a sort of a clear understanding on where it is on the set of intercultural set of relationships. And a university like UBC this is really important in terms of Aboriginal issues because of what those issues are and what they mean and in the context of Canada as a nation and the province just our area. There's all kinds of compelling reasons for that. But also this is a university with a very high degree of cultural diversity and it's a fact of the university and that's something that people are quite well aware of in various ways. But it's not something which is really talked about very much and I think there's probably in the long run a large gain to be made there for the university. |
| [20,59] If it happens through talking about Aboriginal issues, they're a very specific circumstance and they are one, they are issues which are contentious in a obvious public way. But they are also, developing a way of talking about those issues is a way of developing a way of talking about a lot of other intercultural issues that could be I think quite beneficial in a much more general way. And this may be a very good way to develop a way to think about those things and that's the point I've been thinking about that for a long time for a lot of reasons. I was very interested to see some of my earliest discussions with administrative people just in our unit here, that people brought that up, people were aware of that, they were aware of the relationship of the, in some respects, there are very particular circumstances surrounding Aboriginal issues, but the way in which the concerns that a lot Aboriginal students have are ones that other people are having as well and they were aware of that. They were looking for a way to talk about it so I do think that there's always the fear at universities that faculty are going to be very reluctant to talk about these kind of issues, but I think a lot of faculty are not that reluctant. Faculties are very busy, and they have a lot of demands on their time and their careers are really demanding so they don't have high tolerance for discussions that they don't see going somewhere that's productive. |
| [20,60] But on the other hand, I think a lot of faculty are well aware of many of these issues, when they are given away to think about it, I think they want some level of engagement with them. And it can be quite satisfying for their professional lives to have that so I think a lot of it is setting a direction and the tone and developing the venues for people to talk about things and of course there's a whole set of things which could productively be in place to support Aboriginal initiatives specifically. But in terms of classroom discussion I think visibility and creating venues to talk about it is really important and to not, in the States we would say, to not ghettoize that discussion by having only in mind a certain group of people. By having voluntary programs for people who are particularly interested in cross-cultural communications. I think making it something which is more broadly a function of people's ability, to function at a professional level with classrooms that have diversity in them and have Aboriginal students in them and hope increasingly have Aboriginal students in them whatever the discipline is and that is knowing how to work with that circumstances and what makes one a professional at the institution. I think that is something more general that universities should be doing and this one certainly could be doing. |
| [20,61] Karrmen: What would you see happen next? |
| [20,62] Linc: I would like to see the discussions surrounding students classroom experiences' more broadly engaged at the university. I think this is a real opportunity and your project is very much a part of that, I think giving people a way to do that. I think that's a critical thing to have happened. There are a lot of ways those kind of discussions can be developed but I think those are discussions that need to be developed further and people need to understand that it really is across the curriculum. It's as relevant in some ways in a science classroom as it is in a First Nations studies or ethnic studies classroom although the discussions will be very different and will happen in some respects obviously in levels of intensity in one environment they may not in another. But the general understanding the fact that there is a demographic....not only are students people, which is something we hope all faculty realize, but also they are all people who do come from personal circumstances and that personal circumstances are, in some respect, of course not the faculty responsibility. But they are not insignificant and that people, faculty members' understanding who they are talking to is and engaging with people for who they actually are and not who they may generically presumed to be. |
| [20,63] It's probably an advancement in many respects. Of course I think most faculty on some level do that routinely. A lot of times people don't... going back to what I was saying before about the K through 12 education in Canadian history or something like that, faculty members are not trained in cross-cultural communications, very few of them are. We are trained in our disciplines and that's why we are hired. That we can stand in front of a group of people and can be relatively articulate on the specifics of our discipline is an important part of our job qualifications. But none of that requires that we understand those cross-cultural dimensions, at least not yet, that's not widely required by institutions. But it's something that affects our ability to do our jobs if we understand this way. Providing people with a way to think about that and understand and have more productive engagements with students in other faculty is pretty important. The other thing I would add, sort of talking about this in terms of students, faculty-to-faculty interactions are a big piece of this as well. I was really surprised in my first job how when people began understanding a little bit more about who I was and how I thought about things, how much it changed my interactions with people and part of it was not because, well some of it was just, people had some difficulty with that, but part of it was sometimes people just didn't know how to, what to do or how to or what to say or how to interact with somebody who's background was quite unfamiliar to them. |
| [20,64] Particularly in the States, most people, many people haven't met someone who comes from an American Indian background or if they have they don't know they have met them unless it's become a fairly explicit topic of the conversation so they are not necessarily thinking about it. It's become much more rare for people to not deal with people from some minority group but among professoria, at least when I moved to that job, it was pretty common. I mean there were not too many minority people in faculty positions. So committee meetings and so forth really didn't, people didn't really have a way in dealing with those kind of interactions too well. I think that's another place in general, you see in the corporate world, I think there's a real attention to the fact that people need to know how to get along with co-workers who come from different cultural backgrounds but that kind of explicit awareness and willing to address it that way in the university context is not there because we tend to focus so much on professional characteristics of our competence of our fields or whatever, that those are typically regarded as way down the list of things people pay attention to on hiring decisions. |
| [20,65] At my previous job, things developed fairly quickly and the university's willingness to include taglines in job ads that stated at least the desirable qualification for the job something like "a demonstrated ability to work with diverse populations" became much more routine in the language of job ads. So it began integrate that kind of sensibility in to basic hiring frameworks. I think that's fairly positive development. It helps counteract a little bit the sense in which this is a knowledge driven environment and in other respects, it's a neutral environment. It's not. And that's just a little more explicit way of recognizing that but it doesn't take away from the quest for excellence in people's understanding of their subject areas at all. It just makes it clear that we are living in a real world of human interactions in a historical context we are addressing. I think that's a positive thing. |
| [20,66] Karrmen: I'm at the end of my questions, but was there anything you wanted to add that I didn't ask you? |
| [20,67] Linc: Well it's probably all too clear from the last hour and twenty minutes or whatever, you could probably wind me up and I could keep going on this on these topics for a really long time. I guess the final thing I might add, at least at this point, is thinking about you know what might happen next to the university and so forth. We can build in access programs, we can build in better financial support for Aboriginal students, we can do all kinds of things in that direction. If we don't materially affect the way in which Aboriginal students experience their lives in classrooms by having more better and informed discussions of anything in which their lives as Aboriginal students are affected then we are not going to make it. We are not really doing our jobs. We are not really creating a climate in which our public education system is functional for those students. If we are not doing that, in my opinion, we are not doing our jobs and that's not just true of course of Aboriginal students, but it's certainly true of Aboriginal students. It's certainly a very critical aspect of addressing a very difficult history between Aboriginal people in Canada and systems of public and formal education. |
| [20,68] So I think this is a really critical piece and if we are able to establish a really productive environment for people to come and study whatever it is they want to study and feel that they can expect respectful and informed discussions and the real acknowledgement of who they and everyone else is in classrooms, in which those things are open to some productive discussions, I think we'll have done quite a bit. I really think it's one of the most critical things we can do... One thing, I was sort of thinking about it... a few minutes ago that's probably worth returning to. For instructors, I think and I would be amazed if this weren't sort of a common theme in some of your interviews, I think one of the things that goes with the territory of doing curriculum that directly concerns Aboriginal issues is of course the positionality of the instructor and I think with different people, how our instructor response to their social position in the class is quite variable, it depends on what that position is and how they choose to respond to it. But it's never not an issue. I think you know there are some relatively straightforward ways that some people have found dealing with those issues that works for them. But for other people I think it can be more complicated. What works for one person doesn't necessarily works for someone else. |
| [20,69] I think when... I remember when I moved here to do this job, I was running into people in many locations who were not happy that I was from the States to start with. They thought the position was here and talking about the Aboriginal issues in Canada that is someone who's from Canada and had a real primary understanding of the issues as they are shaped in Canada was quite important and I was not that person. But also I think even if I was in the States, for me I come from a family that's mixed, it's Indian and non-Indian, and actually to describe my family as Indian and non-Indian is somewhat of an understatement. But I won't get into the complexities at the moment. |
| [20,70] Karrmen: You can just visit the First Nations Studies website. |
| [20,71] Linc: Well right, I know, I should change that little bit of self-disclosure at some point. Well that was the case with my family, there was a lot of racial dynamics within the family. Just my father was a southern White from pre-integrationist, segregationist South in the US and my mother was from a reservation. It's interesting in those respects. But it's also the fact that I have pretty solid access to white privilege by pass through most environments and people will assume I am... whatever accords to white people accords to me. My situation was quite different to some of my students, for who color discrimination is a daily fact of life and that's something typically I don't contend with. And I think those kinds of differences are really important to acknowledge for everybody who is in a class where those kinds of identity issues have any kind of prominence whatsoever. I think it's very typical to have challenges to professors in those circumstances as the professional person in the room to why they should have anything to say about whatever the issues are. I think, depending on how someone looks or their family backgrounds is, those challenges are going to take different forms |
| [20,72] You know people I've spoken with who are much more recognizably Native people than I am who have taught in classes have told me they experience a lot of the same challenges. In those cases, it's going to have a less base around appearance but more based around political stand. There'll be challenges to their authenticity based on the configuration of their political position. It's very interesting, recently we were listening to the feedback we got from people surrounding a hiring decision. You know people sense of how candidates dealt with the question of their ethnic positioning was something that everybody seems to pay some level of attention to. For some people it was very high list of the way they read candidates. I think in some respects, the real critical thing is for people that had to have some way of understanding of their own position is and they way that is going to be perceived by other people who are coming from different places with respect to that social occasion in their classroom. I don't think... I think that the authenticity issue is a really big part of where the discourse in this field is at the moment. And I don't think it's resolvable by claiming higher levels of authenticity. I don't think that's resolvable by seeking the maximum Indian person to be standing in front of the classroom. |
| [20,73] I think it's... people bring different background, different levels of knowledge and that there is a real importance to the many different kinds of understandings that people can bring in to the classroom and a variety of approaches is probably a pretty healthy thing. But I think the most critical thing is that people have to have an understanding why that is important in the class and they have to be fairly clear at least with themselves and they bring out to class about what they understand that to be and who they understand themselves to be in those circumstances and what their experiences, what they can say about things given their experiences and what they can't say about some things given their experiences, at least not in a particular way and why that matters. |
| [20,74] Karrmen: So we were talking about it in the context of being in classes and people... |
| [20,75] Linc: Oh yeah, this has happened to me at many points and I think it's really typical of what people I have talked to have expressed as well. I certainly have very routinely had people challenge me on why am I teaching the class, why am I talking about a particular subject. I think you have to have an answer to those questions. I think they are in fact, they are not always, they're asked for a variety of reasons and sometimes they're asked because people actually want to know. Sometimes they're asked in a way, which is somewhat irreducibly hostile from whatever side they are coming from, whether they are coming from Aboriginal people or they are coming from non-Aboriginal people. In some respects have some of the same characteristics. They are just about the challenge. To some extent, I may not... professors are challenged by students in many ways, in many respects. My premises always been that, sometimes you are not going to satisfy the person who's challenging you, you are not going to somehow make it okay and become their friend whatever the nature of the challenge is, it can be on ethnicity, on the grading practices or whatever. But that's what goes with the relationship, and it's something that people have to way to work with as instructors. |
| [20,76] But the ethnic challenges surrounding authenticity and ethnicity are different in some ways. There are ones I think are very much a part of working in this field. When I first came here, the first group of students I had, those challenges were just a routine part of every class, and it was I think people were new, a new program, people didn't know what it was or what it should and we're looking for that people have experiences in the ways Aboriginal studies have been conducted in other institutions and ways they were familiar with and found effective and they were not familiar with necessarily what I was trying to do, or why it might be effective or how it might be the same or how it might be different and questions of nationality, all of that. And then I think part of it is just also comes from people negotiating distance between themselves. As a student they have a certain embodied social position, experience and knowledge, someone who's in the position of institutional authority who's experiences may be quite different from that and what the relationship is going to be. I think going back to how people work with that as professors or instructors or what a class should do, they are really part of the same question. |
| [20,77] To me the greatest potential I've seen for having productive conversations comes from a class really looking at the issues of what social position is in the class and the reality that everybody in the class who's coming from some different place on that issues. If the way we are going to resolve it is to find the experience we are going to think of as the most authentic and that then becomes the standard of the class. I guess the issue that I see there is I'm not sure other than identifying that and maybe listening to what that person has to say about what they're experiences has been like, I don't know where it leaves us to go. And I think the other issue is for people to understand why they're position is what it is and how it's different from someone else's position and why someone who's coming from another position would see things in a different way or feel differently about them or would have questions in which standards of authenticity really are meaningful and important. That to me seems to be the job and the opportunity that a class presents. The classroom situation unlike a lot of other situations is one in which the class is an artificial situation, it is a constructed situation and it's one in which everybody entering it, they're not all the same. That's the point. Everybody is coming at it from a different standpoint, but they all have an equal right to be there. |
| [20,78] They are potentially equal participants in that discussion and the real question is, how are they going to find a way to talk to each other, and how they are going to find a way to talk to each other about the things which are in some respects the most difficult, which could for instance start with their feelings about each others in terms of their levels of authenticity in addressing some issues, or authority in addressing some issues. That's important to understand and it's important to understand why it's an issue to people. It's important for people to be able, who feel it very deeply, to be able to articulate its parameters for them and what it means for them. And to hear what it means to someone who's coming at it from some other place and that's a way to potentially take that discussion somewhere further. In a way, that works for people who come from a wide variety of positions on it. It's not good if it devalues, for instance, people who are in the class who feel that their Aboriginal roots are extremely strong and the most important thing in their lives. If they don't feel that, the discussion is working in the way, which it acknowledges the importance of that to them and what it is. It's probably not a great discussion and it probably needs to be rethought in some way. |
| [20,79] On the other hand, if the discussion has the effect of making it impossible for someone who's coming from outside kind of an Aboriginal position to understand who they are in that discussion and what can happen through their involvement and thinking about it, then we are locking ourselves in a position, we are not likely to generate a way of moving things on a different footing, either in the institution or in the broader arenas. Figuring out how to negotiate those differences and talk about the things that need to be talked about where what everybody things about them matters but in which there is substantial address to the issues is pretty critical. I don't think it's possible for an instructor to have a whole lot of success in getting anywhere with that without finding a way to express their awareness of their own positions in that situation. But I'm not sure if there's an ideal position that's requisite to having a good discussion. I don't know. I also feel that what I just said was probably stated in a way, which is a lot of more abstract than it would be most useful for it to be stated. But I guess part of it is really simple. |
| [20,80] If you are working in this area, there's going to be a lot of challenges because there are a lot of real issues to be dealt with here and we're talking about the history of people being really placed in positions of disadvantage and contending with all of that is going to have its very challenging moments for anybody who's working as a professional in it, whether they are Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal or different levels of Aboriginal identity. |
| [20,81] Karrmen: But I think it does, it has... I mean going back to when you first started talking, the people who remain silent and the people who speak in class, it's between instructor and student, and student and student very much. I think students brought that up. |
| [20,82] Linc: Sure. |
| [20,83] Karrmen: But it's good for students to hear that. This does happen at other levels of the faculty, the administrative level as all those kind of challenges. |
| [20,84] Linc: Oh sure, right. |
| [20,85] Karrmen: But the concrete way that it materializes, is in who speaks and who doesn't in the classroom. |
| [20,86] Linc: Right. |
| [20,87] Karrmen: Like you are saying, if people can't articulate their position, if they can't say it and see it out in front of them and they just stated it and in a sense have it refracted or reflected back to them from the other people in the class. Then how are they suppose to interrogate that? |
| [20,88] Linc: Right. Well that's true. I think one of the issue is a lot of students coming in to classes did not see themselves at least initially to interrogate that. I think a lot of people for all kinds of reasons feel that they are quite grounded in who they are and of course, I don't believe it's our job to make people feel less grounded to who they are. But on the other hand to feel very strongly to know who you are and where your sense of identity comes from and feel that's highly important to you and at the core of your being and at the same time when someone asks you to talk about that, being unable to talk about it, you know there are a lot of circumstances in which that's okay. I mean it's fine. But in this circumstance, it's the opportunity is there to find a way to talk about it. And to understand that in a different way for yourself that may create some other opportunities for the person doing it, and create a different kind of functionality. It's, in a certain way, one of the impasses that often happens in classes that people will announce an identity position. It could be a white identity position, it can be an Aboriginal identity position and they'll say, "As such and such a person, this is what I think..." |
| [20,89] It's as if the statement of who they are in the situation is a sufficient precondition and basis for understanding what they then say. And that because they state an idea fairly simply or clearly, I don't mean simply as in simplistically, just sparsely, and put it out there that because they have said it and because they have a particular subject position, it's self-evident, what it means and it's compelling for that reason. I just think there's a limit to how much... how far the discussion can go once that's done. So that's your position, okay... can we talk about it? The problem is then talking about it then it's going to come back to what does it mean coming from where you are saying that. How it affects its meaning and how it affects what it means in terms of understanding whatever the topic was and all of that. Then that starts turning into a discussion and in that discussion the need to, not so much to justify yourself or explain who you are because you have to prove it to somebody but explain what it means to see it from who you understand yourself to be, as a way of understanding more fully what the idea is and what it means something in particular way. I think that makes a big difference. |
| [20,90] The class I think one of the things I try to do in my classes, I try to make a major feature of the curriculum of this program so far, other people will soon be teaching these classes so I don't know what will happen with that but what I saw when I got here in the discussions in the first year was that people came in with...everybody with a different sense of who they were coming out from a circumstance. That was true among Aboriginal students and that was certainly true between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal students, although there were not too many Aboriginal students in the first couple years of the program. But people really had, where they were coming from was obviously very critical for them, where I was coming from was critical to them, critical to me too for that matter. Everybody had that. But the discussions tended to be very short and very elliptical because people would come in and announce their position where they were coming from. Kind of on the Aboriginal, as Aboriginal people or as whatever they were, however they were approaching it and then they would state their position. It was kind of like putting chess pieces out on the table and they stop moving. It's like "Okay, you coming from this position say this, you coming from that position, say that. And that's it." |
| [20,91] Now everybody has a very brief statement of what everybody else who's chosen to speak thinks but they've all been presented as self-evident and now there's now no interaction happening between them. To me the challenge was: how do we make this more interactive? So people began to not only understand each other more completely but began to have that kind of dialogues surrounding the issue where we start building just as we would in any other subject began developing a more extended and hopefully a deeper approach to the issue and one we can then explain to other people. And that tended to go back into those issues of personal position fairly quickly. Coming at it that way, they also, in some cases, they can be quite uncomfortable discussions and not in that sense, particularly satisfactory. What I began trying to do very quickly was kind of go at it from the other end, which is have the discussion surrounding the way identity is mapped for Aboriginal people in Canada and by inference and then eventually explicitly for non-Aboriginal people as well. I mean what constructs whiteness? There's a whole literature on that. But it's something that can be very much part of a discussion about what are the social categories that go into people's definition of an Aboriginal identity as well. But people really engaged in that kind of discussion and what was meaningful to them in it and the factors that played at a lot of different levels. |
| [20,92] They really did began finding ways of talking, not only how they saw themselves, but of understanding how other people were then positioning themselves, not just because they were naturally in that some position but because a lot of things have gone into them feeling that way about where they were coming from. People got I think interested in each other in a different way but they also began dealing more effectively with the ways in which simply stating that position wasn't fully self-explanatory. And being able to talk about it and understand it more thoroughly was a way of understanding the issues in a way that was more, potentially more useful. I saw that kind of a discussion really began to develop a lot of possibilities. Later when people would go on in the curriculum in the research practicum, the fourth year course, they were able to work with each other and then also with the people in the organizations they were then working with in a way, which I think was really different than it would have been otherwise, and more effective because they had a way of understanding...they might for instance have a very similar Aboriginal background to somebody who's working in an organization, say a frontline social services organization in terms of what family they came from or what kind of community they came from. |
| [20,93] But they were now in a somewhat different position because they were functioning as a university-based researcher with a set of skills that had been developed in the university, whereas the person in the organization is functioning with a frontline social services set of experiences and skills that were quite different coming out of the work they had done. It wasn't because the student had a university education they were in some kind of more advantaged position in dealing with the issue they were dealing with. Often in some aspects of the situation, obviously the person who had the frontline experience had the higher skill level with dealing with many aspects of the situation as the student did. But that the student had, by virtue of their time in the university, certain set of skills and ways of thinking about things which could really add something to what the organization was doing where that became something worth understanding. That's like having a different family background. It doesn't mean that you're circumstances are better or worse, but it does mean they are different and it gives you some different ways of thinking about things that may be useful in combination with somebody else's. So that kind of recognition of diversity ethnic positions or relationship to Aboriginal issues is actually potentially something positive because it means there's more than one set of skills and one way of looking at something. |
| [20,94] It can be exchanged among people in pursuit of a functional approach to some problem. But it takes a long time to get there, it takes an investment and people being willing to talk about things which often people are least willing to talk about initially because that where the highest level of threat sits. And that's in talking about their own position and all of those questions about authenticity relative to the subject matter that that involves. I think there's a real value in facing that one head-on and finding a way that engages people and thinking about themselves and other people. Kind of prying under the hood, looking at the inner workings as oppose to simply restating those positions over and over again because that just tends to lead to pre-deadlocked conversations where not too much happens. I think we can do a lot better than that. I think that's one of the benefits working in a university environment. It gives us a place, an explicit place to try that and see how that goes. If it works, people can take with them to a lot of circumstances and may be used to good advantage. So it's one of the hard things about the work, it's also one of the things, which is potentially about it. For me anyway, I found it actually quite satisfying, although it certainly had its difficult moments. |
| [20,95] And again, I think earlier when we were talking about difficult classroom situations, sort of talking about people becoming...saying things in classes that are kind of hard to field in some respects. But a lot of times those are about personal identity issues. And people talking about their circumstances or talking about things that had happened in their families that were quite difficult. That can happen often and it's potentially quite difficult but it's also very fundamental to getting at a lot of the reasons the issues are what they are. Finding a way to talk about it is I think quite a necessary thing to do. I don't know if that actually ended up being more specific than anything I said earlier. But I think... |
| [20,96] Karrmen: I think it's... I didn't want, what I was worried about is people's perception being polarized, between...because of the kinds of identity issues we talked about. Like as though it would be easier for a person who's Aboriginal to navigate the identity politics in um... just as though there is a mean and everybody just moves it along in according to their closeness or how much further away they are from this idea, from this kind of identity issue and just... like it affects, like Aboriginal faculty as well but in different ways. That authenticity issue, I mean that's really important because it does come down to, we know of, well you see somebody challenging the instructor on their ability to teach the course. How much does a student want to risk being challenged the same way? |
| [20,97] Linc: Oh yeah. Sure. |
| [20,98] Karrmen: What's their other means, their recourse there and silence is usually it. I mean that's usually, what a lot of silence means, people are modeling their behavior on what's happening and always on the instructor ability or way of intervening or not, or dealing with it in whatever way they deal with it. If they see somebody who's unable to address a challenge like that, what are the chances of them actually? |
| [20,99] Linc: Right, if the instructor doesn't have a good way of working with the situation in which people raise that issue of authenticity and leave open the possibility that people can have something to say in the issues even though they are coming from the position which is inauthentic in terms of certain standard of identity. If that doesn't happen, then a class is likely to be a monologue of one viewpoint. Unless that viewpoint really has a lot to say, that people will benefit from hearing, then that's not going to be a particularly interesting or useful class for people. The problem, I guess this is the flip side of that, I can imagine circumstance in which you can have a pretty great class that was the monologue of a single person. If it were the right person, fine. I think the problem is a lot of times in most classes, when that kind of challenge is based on identity, because the challenge is being made in a way in which it claims to authority or prima facie, in another words, I have a particular, I see myself as having a particular identity, I assert that this identity is the one that should be heard on this issue. This is what I have to say on it. There can't be really too much of a conversation surrounding that. |
| [20,100] Because it's, that's presenting the perspective on the issue as if it's beyond challenge and because it's being, a lot of times when people take that position, the assertion tend to be pretty large scale ones. Because they're not open to challenge, there's really no way to develop them in more detail and that's the end of the conversation. Regardless of how one might feel about the claim to authenticity and identity, these are sort of pragmatic terms of what kind of discussion we are going to have here and how useful it's going to end up being if you foreclose a lot of possibilities. |
| [20,101] Karrmen: We are trying to make the argument that those discussions and you know are a part of people's learning and they are a part of the curriculum and they should be thought of. If those kind of conversations are taking place and if none of those, if there isn't the capacity to think about what is actually happening when people state those positions or appropriate or take a position of authority in the classroom that is beyond question. If people don't have a way to think about that, then first of all what is the curriculum, and that's in... What are we imagining curriculum to be then? What are they learning? |
| [20,102] Linc: In some ways, it sort of goes back to, I don't know in some ways, one way of thinking about that is it goes back to the issues of safety. If you were to base a curriculum around the standard of identity, what you would create is a zone of safety for people who both saw themselves very closely aligned with that structure of identity and felt that they, that their inhabitation of it was beyond challenge and that would be safe for them and maybe a discussion then could happen among them, whoever that group is that would be productive in defining their viewpoint. It would certainly tend to exclude other people. But I think it's, I think to some extent there are ways of conducting a curriculum in which that's a basic assumption that there's identity structure to work with in the curriculum that's based around that. To me I guess... to me that's being... even for the people for whom it would work well, I think that's kind of a short term strategy and it could be a fairly self limiting strategy because it does give you a secure basis for having, for feeling you can have a discussion which precedes from a certain set of premises. And in a sense, every discussion does that, it establishes some frame in which people are talking. |
| [20,103] But a lot of the issues that are most pressing to deal with have to do with interaction. And they have to do with finding loads of interaction, which really are going to be functional for people. I really think that's a lost opportunity to close those things down and to make certain kinds of topics off limits. Because in a sense, what a challenge, say a challenge is based on a really strict identity politics, what it does it is itself explicitly very challenging to other positions. But what it takes off the table is challenges to be made to its explanatory structure. I think anytime you take, you naturalize your own position to the point where it's beyond examination, you are kind of setting up the limitations around the ability to develop your own position and understand it better. And that's usually where a lot of really important gains are to be made. It's from getting a better sense of things you feel to be true, you feel to be important, really finding ways of examining why you think so, what their structure is, how they operate and looking at them in more detail. So I think the bigger price is taking those off the table too, because you've asserted some structure, which is you place beyond question. I think question is better, but then finding a way to do it, in which people feel that they can talk about who they are and why it is important to them to be speaking from that position and have that well understood. |
| [20,104] Well understood within a historical context in which all position have certainly not been equal and really deal with all of that, that's the challenge. So, it's certainly not simple. You can't jump the other way and say, "Well everybody is equal in this classroom, we all come from somewhere, I'm ok, and you're ok." That's not going to work either because that's ignoring the historical realities, and it's ignoring what forms contemporary questions. There really has to be an acknowledgement of what that is. Talking about that is not erasing one's relationship to certain concepts of identity, just clarifying them and examining them what their bases is. I think I can give actually one example which is to clarify to some extent. It's cited in a couple of books in ways, which is really interesting. It is that Aboriginal people in Canada, or American Indians in the US would be similar, people will be very critical the way of the way in which the governments legislates identity. So for instance, surrounding questions of Indian status in Canada, people will be very critical of the historical process and the contemporary practice of the government determining who and who isn't an Indian for some purpose and giving people cards. You are an Indian you have a card, you are not an Indian you don't have a card for that purpose. And yet and they will talk about ways in which identity is more properly determined say by communities or some other standard. |
| [20,105] At the same time, when seeking to assert a notion of themselves as Aboriginal people, they'll produce a status card and say, "Well here. Here it is." And it's like, "But wait a minute, weren't you just being critical about that a minute ago?" "Yeah but now it means this." That's a really interesting discussion to have. Why do things have different meaning and different purposes? What are they being used for in those different contexts? That's really worth understanding. It's worth understanding not just sort of remove contradictions, because that may or may not be possible or worthwhile, but because it's in not seeing past those large categories sometimes that people really reach obstacles in their thinking about issues and problems and that if it's possible to look at the way those things are constructed there's way of freeing up some mobility in an approach to a situation which may be really critical to coming up with a better defined approach. So I just, again, I think that's really about intellectual inquiry and it's really about having the best conversation that's really possible to have about whatever the topic is and the investment in thinking through those things. Without the aim of lessening anyone's sense of who they are but finding a way to talk about it and talk about it across whatever distances there are between people is a very useful thing to do. It may not be, everybody may not want to do that. |
| [20,106] And it may not be the thing, which works for every purpose. But it is what this venue gives us the chance to do and it's probably a really good use of our circumstance to try to do it because it is something, which is more likely to happen here in a concerted way than it is in most other places. |
|
Andrew Martindale |
| [21,1] Karrmen: How satisfied are you with the level of discussion of Aboriginal issues that you typically encounter in classrooms or even in your work place? |
| [21,2] Andrew: That's a complex question. There's a lot of issues that the kind of research that I do and the teaching that I do intersects with Aboriginal issues. So I think in some ways we do things well. But I think there's a lot of work that we still have yet to do. I'm an archeologist, specifically a historical archeologist and I work primarily with First Nations communities here in Canada, specifically here in British Columbia. So the research that I do and the classroom teaching that I engage in invokes a lot of these relationships that I have with these communities. I think that in some cases this is a very productive relationship where we can speak about...I can speak about experiences that I've had and indeed some classes that I teach even run in conjunction with the local First Nation. So there are times when I think we really succeed in bringing students from a variety of backgrounds into contact with First Nations cultures and First Nations peoples to discuss the issues that are meaningful and relevant to Aboriginal people in Canada today. But I think there's also a lot of issues that are not fully addressed in the wider courses that we teach in our program and also I suppose in some of the courses that I teach. |
| [21,3] It's often, for non-First Nations students, it's often a new issue to understand Aboriginal peoples. And perhaps to overcome some of the stereotypes and prejudices that they have before they arrive in the classroom setting. So I find a lot of my work now has become somewhat preemptive in trying to raise Aboriginal issues in classrooms so that we are thinking about them in advance of the invocation of some of these less fortunate stereotypes that people sometimes raise. It's a bit of a scattered kind of relationship I think. I think we can do better. In general we are striving to improve the content and the empathy and the respect for First Nations people in our classes and in anthropology and archeology specifically. But it's a very...these are very complex issues with very heterogeneous communities, so they have a subtlety and a nuance that are sometimes hard to invoke by, in classroom settings by people who don't have a great deal of experience with these issues and I would include myself. Just by my work with First Nations peoples, some of the issues are more complex than I can currently understand. So I think there are good things and some things we can work on. Does that make some sense? |
| [21,4] Karrmen: I think so. Also I think the further we go, the questions... we are find of returning to a lot of what you are talking about because it's pretty key. |
| [21,5] Andrew: Most of what I do is, in teaching it deals with the history of First Nations people. So I teach courses on archaeology in Canada and in British Columbia. So I'm speaking about the history of people of the First Nations in Canada and archaeology is one, not the only avenue, but one avenue that we have for understanding this history. So some ways the subject matter of my classes is to a large extent, issues that are First Nations. Although we frame them archeologically and thus we frame them somewhat scientifically and somewhat historically and we study them as scholarly and academic subjects. They are of course very emotional historical issues that are relevant to these communities. Perhaps some like other courses, and maybe even my colleagues that are teaching archaeology and history in other parts of the world, my work is front-and-centre with dealing with First Nations issues. So one thing that comes out is not only in dealing with the subject of First Nations studies, but really trying to raise a scrutiny of how non-Native archaeologists and non-Native scholars have historically approached this issue. |
| [21,6] So there are two subjects that need to be raised: the subject of study, what is the history of First Nations in Canada; and then secondly the subject that's more introspective, how have scholars approached this subject and how well have they understood these complex histories and to what extend has their own prejudices and biases, how have they influenced our rendering of this history. We strive of course for a fairly neutral, accurate scholarship, a science, unambiguousness on our understanding of this history. When we are dealing with people, we know that people are complex and heterogeneous and sometimes weird in delightful ways. Humans don't lend themselves always to the very singular study of their cultural expressions so there are multiple stories to be told. The challenge in our archaeological studies that we have a modest... a very modest amount of data. That small amount of data tends to require a certain amount of interpretation, a large amount of interpretation to render it a more complete study. And as a consequence this large amount of interpretation is maybe more, increasingly susceptible to bias because you have to fill in so many gaps. You fill in gaps to what is common sense to you, that's a reflection of perhaps unbeknownst to you of your own biases of how societies operate, how specific societies operate and how human nature operates in general. |
| [21,7] So archaeology struggles I think to recognize, because I don't think it will ever divest itself of these biases, but to recognize how influential they have been in our rendering of history. And of course the great divide has been between Indigenous people and colonists. Most of the archaeologists, most of the scholars, not all of them, most of the scholars in Canada who study First Nations archaeology are not First Nations. And so it invokes this colonial division inevitably. And I think one of the struggles that we face as instructors but also as researchers is recognizing how significant that is. It's not just a question of brushing it off and saying that we can be neutral because whenever we are aspire to be neutral we are often profoundly biased. So rather than just to ignore and hope that we are doing a better job and I think we need to scrutinize it and raise it for study as a subject in itself. So we try and do that in our classes and as well in my research. That kind of juxtaposition of studying a subject and then studying ourselves study the subject can be a little bit disorienting for students at times. Especially when they are coming to the classroom wanting an unambiguous narrative, an answer or a set of answers, about something they are anticipating to be fairly straightforward: history and people. Surprisingly they think of them... they should be fairly easy to comprehend. |
| [21,8] They struggle with chemistry, perhaps but they think that anthropology should be more simple, in fact it's probably most complex of subjects and requiring probably... certainly requiring a lot of introspection. More so than many people, many students would recognize. So it's an education of not only subjects but also of their own perceptions. This is something I am trying to be preemptive about rather than letting them come out of the classroom when we are dealing with First Nations issues as I do in some of courses. We try to speak of these biases and the history of bias that anthropologists have had towards First Nations communities in the first few classes. So that students are aware of the legacy that we inherit as scholars of this subject. |
| [21,9] Karrmen: What do you find are the most difficult aspects of teaching and discussing Aboriginal issues? |
| [21,10] Andrew: The one that comes to mind... there are many as I said, the history, recognizing that Aboriginal history is as complicated as the political history of Europe for example is a challenge for some students. They want the distant past to be simpler and that's not just an Aboriginal, non-Native issue. People just have sense that it's sort of a progressivism, that things in the distant past are sort of Stone Age and populated history of, those times were populated by simpler people. So it's a struggle to render even the earliest forms of anatomically humans going back perhaps two hundred thousand years. The cultures of people of those times were as complex as they are today. That's a confrontation that sort of enters into the discussions of Aboriginal history because people often put Aboriginal history chronologically prior to other forms of history. They seem to be of a simpler form and that's just a bias. Confronting this notion of progressivism, that the past is simple and the past is complex and relatively speaking we're more sophisticated today than we have been in antiquity is a challenge in all of our courses and it's a challenge that includes studying Aboriginal history. |
| [21,11] Because specifically when non-Native people want an example of what a simpler society might be they will go around the world and look for Aboriginal society and say this is an example, you've probably heard this, of "Stone Age society", wasn't there one recently of "Stone Age people" found in Brazil. Obviously they are not Stone Age people because the Stone Age ended thousands of years ago, they're contemporary people, they are modern people. The point is the people of all times are as complicated as they are today, and so that's one issue that we struggle. If students can appreciate that then they take a more empathetic view to all history, not just Aboriginal history. But specifically one of the issues that comes out in classes that deals with the Aboriginal issues is the lingering legacy of colonialism in the subject of anthropology and archaeology which students are sometimes reluctant to confront and to grasp and grapple with. They can usually identify the unfortunate history that anthropology and archaeology has had in its relations with First Nations people, not that long ago even you know, 1500 years, they're though I think reluctant to recognize that it still has influenced today both that this is the legacy of scholarship we inherited that defines our discipline to some extent and memories of these events and interpretations lingers the First Nations communities we deal with. |
| [21,12] I think what I was trying to talk about was the challenge that students have in dealing with this long legacy of archaeology and anthropology and it's at times unpalatable history in dealing with First Nations and Aboriginal people. So they wonder why we have to study these issues, because they feel... make them to feel somewhat guilty and somewhat unpleasant. But the second issue and perhaps the more challenging one many of these effects are still operating today. We still live in a colonial period, there are still an unequal treatment of First Nations people. And while we can look back in the past and recognize the racism if you will, we can label it as such, that operated the academics 100 years ago, it's more challenging to look at ourselves and ask ourselves are these factors still at play today? So many students don't want to think of themselves as participating in a worldview that includes marginalization or racism. We convince ourselves that in Canada that we are immune from that and perhaps that's somewhat to our detriment because we are not...we don't perhaps scrutinize as much what we do that borders on racism. So for example in First Nations issues and one of my efforts to try to preempt these discussions in class is sometimes students will raise issues of double standards in our classroom. |
| [21,13] So we'll talk about legislation in Canada and people will wonder why there are different rules. The common one, an obvious one, on the West Coast is why there are different rules for First Nations fishers, as opposed to other people and why do we have sort of this cultural or, as described in the press, race based legislation that gives differential access, why is there double standard that benefits First Nations peoples? And of course they forget that there is a double standard across the colonial divide and for 99.9 percent of the time, historically First Nations people have not benefited from the double standard. So when there is a double standard that exists today that benefits First Nations peoples, students will raise that as an example as unequal treatment for this community as a segway in to wondering why we have to dwell on the racist history. That's perhaps too strong of a word, but the biased history of anthropology and archaeology. So that's perhaps the most difficult issue to deal with, to get students to recognize that what Eric Wolf referred to as the structural power of our society is inherently biased towards a certain groups of people over others, and that I'm not arguing we have to confront that, but I think we should, but as scholars we must recognize it and it's a reality that needs to be explored and it has an affect in the study of archaeology. |
| [21,14] So students I think struggle with that because it requires introspection. It sort of shakes sometimes the foundation of what they think of themselves as sort of being liberal and open minded Canadians and you don't have to look very far in our society to find out we actually have at times unpleasant history and unpleasant reality. So I think that's one of the hardest things to teach students. They often react emotionally when we raise that. So I tend to do it as a historical phenomenon, to start with the past to show how we can all agree that in the 19th century that anthropologists and scholars and archaeologist were biased and often racist towards Aboriginal people and then work our way to today and many students at that point I think recognize some of those affects still linger. That's really all I'm trying to get them to do. So that's where I try to talk about speaking with these at first so that they are... we have discussed or we are discussing a long history of relationships between First Nations people and archaeologist before we try and address the more complex issues I think, complex for us to address, of how we are implicated in those issues and relationships today. So those are hard things to deal with sometimes in a classroom. |
| [21,15] Karrmen: I agree. Have there been any particular situations or experiences that you've had in classes or in your professional role that have been really memorable? |
| [21,16] Andrew: Yes. I can think of a couple, one negative and one positive. I'll give you ones that come to mind. The negative one actually didn't occur in the classroom. Students who take anthropology are probably aware after a short time in my classes that sort of the overt statements that have racist connotations are probably going to be challenged. So I don't tend to see in my classes very much overt discussion of these issues, although as I say I tend to start most of my classes with the discussion of this long history of racism in archaeology and that maybe circumvents that. But in my professional research I do archaeological fieldwork and I do a lot of work in the territories of First Nations in Canada. And in the daily life of doing field research, I'm camping, I'm traveling through the community. I'm usually fairly easily identifiable as an archaeologist. People hear about archaeology being conducted, most people have a very positive view of archaeology. They're interested in archaeology, it's a subject that holds for them usually some interests and fascination. So when they find out about it, I have a large number of people that come and speak to me about the kind of work that I do. Most people are interested and polite. |
| [21,17] But some people assume, when they actually find out that I actually do archaeology of First Nations histories, they often trot out very unfortunate prejudices and stereotypes about archaeologists as well as about First Nations people. So I find that I spend a lot of time when I deal with the public face of archaeology, sometimes trying to confront these views, these very negative views of Aboriginal people. And I don't think it's about Aboriginal archaeology per se that people are upset about, but there is this aspect of latent kind of racism that exists in Canada among the non-Native people, among some non-Native people, and it emerges when people are thinking about archaeology and Aboriginal history. Sometimes I've had some people who have been very rude to me when they find out that I'm an archaeologist, and when they find out specifically that I'm an archaeologist of First Nations issues, they raise all sorts of concerns about that are unfounded about Aboriginal claims to land and private property and such, a misunderstanding of territorial litigation and territorial claims. So there's unfortunate stereotypes and you can all sort of see them in the press and media sometimes when the furor about Aboriginal rights comes to... rises in the popular media. These are often people who haven't given much thought to the subject, these are just a certain invocations of stereotypes and dissatisfaction that come out. |
| [21,18] So sometimes I get drawn into that and I spend a lot of time trying to explain to people about the complex history of First Nations people and about the role of archaeology in studying that. It helps that I work almost exclusively with First Nations people in the research crew that I take. So they're able to also address some of these issues and collectively we find to some extent we go out and do a little bit of re-education as we move around the landscape doing archaeology. It's interesting, people have this sort of sense of archaeology as being very exciting and very romantic from film... and yet at the same time, and it is, it is all of those wonderful things. It's exciting, it's delightful, it's fascinating, and then when they find that it's First Nations archaeology, for some people, not all, but for some people, that seems to change the nature of the subject, it becomes less exciting. I'm not sure why, and yet it's fascinating, I think. On the other hand, then there are people who are very excited about it, so I don't want to suggest... this is very much the minority. But many people are very excited about what we do, very interested, and very respectful. But there is again this small, minority, but it's pervasive. I don't know if it's a contradiction in terms, a small pervasive minority. It seems to reoccur is my point. I would have thought over the 10 to 15 years that I've been doing this it would be dissipating. |
| [21,19] Every now and then I meet with somebody that has these views that seems to be so far out of the norm. And then the second part, which is the positive example, didn't have anything to do with me. It was actually the best class I've ever taught at a university. I was working at an eastern university, teaching archaeological laboratory course and we were working with collections, which are artifacts that have been stored. In this case, since the 1970s, so for about 30 years, and they had been in storage for that long and they hadn't been studied since they had been brought out of the ground. And my class was a laboratory method course so we were using these objects as a form of teaching aid for the students to do actual research. We were producing scholarship. I was leading the students on little mini-projects to bring new information out of these old collections. And I had from the [omitted], which is one of their main cultural museum and archival and curatorial area or resource a lot of enthusiasm for what we were doing, but they also noted that there would be some people who would not be too happy with the kind of research that we were doing. So I sought out a hereditary leader, an elder, who had expressed dissatisfaction with archaeology. |
| [21,20] We had a delightful afternoon where we shared tea and he very politely explained to me why he thought archaeology was a very colonialist program and that it desecrated the Indigenous past and it offered no new information to Indigenous peoples about their history. So for him, not just the interpretation of archaeology was colonialist, not just its use was colonialist, but archaeology itself was a colonial endeavor and it could not be divorced from those colonial roles. But he was delightful, very respectful but very forceful in his views. I asked him if he would come to the class to present those views and he agreed and he came to the class and it was the best class I've ever taught and all I said was, I just introduced this elder and didn't say anything. The students and he had a wonderful discussion. They tried to understand his point of view. He very carefully explained why he thought what he did. They try to number the lines of reasoning to suggest that there was some merit in archaeology and he disagreed with most of those. But in the end, they learned from him I think that one can disagree entirely and query and be suspicious of the nature of scholarship but do so in a mutually respectful way. So they didn't ever reconcile and I don't think they...he was planning on such a reconciliation. |
| [21,21] I think he persuaded some of the students of the problems with archaeology. But what he did more was he showed that the issue was not that simple. There was more at stake and it was more complicated than the students might have otherwise anticipated and indeed more complicated than I could've explained to them. So it was a very wonderful moment. Even though it captured that some great division, that chasm, that seems to exist between Aboriginal and non-Native people. It did so in a way that was, that's a counterpoint to some of the more negative experiences I've had, rather than just to accentuate the differences. His view was that we need to understand why. He in specific was upset with archaeology. Not only its history but its practice today. One student asked him whether the future of archaeology could ever be improved to a point where he would be satisfied. He paused and said, "Yes perhaps." And I think that caused the students to be very happy. That they thought there's an aspiration that we can improve what we have done and it's not, in his view at least, not all hopeless. So it was a wonderful afternoon. About two years ago, well we teach an archaeological field method course in the department where we take students for 6 weeks in the summer and we instruct them on the practice of archaeology, how do you do the technical qualities of archaeology and we actually go out and do it. |
| [21,22] We find contexts in which we can do some research and the students participate in a mini-research program where we teach them the technique and collecting and interpreting data as we go. So it's a very satisfying experience for students and it's often a very important course for them because it leads them into either a graduate career or private sector career in archaeology. Usually their first experience outside the classroom for doing practical work in archaeology, of learning the things that are sometimes hard to teach about the nature of archaeological interpretation, practice and epistemology. A few years ago we started on a project to conduct our field research in the community. We spent about a year negotiating with the community and working at a relationship where we can take the students into the community and to conduct our classes on the reserve and to conduct our research in the community with the community participation with the approval of the community. To be visible to be community as well, so people could come by and visit us and talk to us and ask questions of what we were doing. We wanted to do this because it raised...there are a series of issues that we confront in archaeology that are very hard to teach students about and they are often about these preconceptions that people have about culture and difference and what we might colloquially refer to as "race," so we wanted to take students into a First Nations community to do our classroom learning there. |
| [21,23] Partly to introduce them to this community, partly also to inform them about how we work in collaboration with the First Nations community so that we are addressing research issues that are of concern and value to the descent community, the First Nation, of the archaeology that we're studying. It gives them a very clear link. We are actually working with the people of whose history we're studying. This is the relationship, that surprisingly in archaeology we sometimes forget, because we often study the distant past and its material record so closely an it's sometimes such a challenge that we forget people were linked to that and there are still people alive today, the descent community, who have a say and who have an interest in what we do. So just as we are liable to forget some of those subtleties, it's hard to teach them to students. So when we take students, a classroom of 10 or 15 students to introduce them to the community to work for 6 weeks with the community, they form relationships with the local people. Many of the elders come by and visit us, sometimes taking issues that are of interest to them, helping to direct the research. Many of the crew and research assistants are members of the community and can help the students learn about the history of the community. We have a lot of guest speakers who come by and speak to the students about their past. |
| [21,24] What this does is it teaches students things that I can't teach them, things about the proximity across the great diversity of human nature, the great proximity that we all have. That we are all very similar when you get to know each other, we are all really very similar. At the same time, even in the context of that profound similarity, there are significant and important cultural differences. So it informs them about that difference and about the presence of First Nations peoples. So taking them to that is an experience that awakens them to issues that they perhaps have otherwise been ignoring, willfully or not, they just haven't had those experiences. And I think that's the one thing that comes out of it. The thing we teach them is not, that seems to be most valuable to them is not so much about archaeology but it's about the diversity of our communities and it's about the important, the vibrancy in First Nations communities and their interest in research questions and the value of their voice in speaking of issues of history and of scholarship that concern their past and their lives. So I think that's a, we were drawn to try to take the students into this community because the community could teach the students things that we would not be able to teach them in a classroom setting. |
| [21,25] Or the alternative would be to take them off into some part of British Columbia where there was no descent community or where the descent community was not visible. And then it would be a discussion among archaeologists about history of First Nations people, somewhat more sterile than a discussion among First Nations people and archaeologists about their history. So I think that's why we wanted to take the students to the community and I think it has paid off tremendously for them. The community seemed to be pleased that we were there. We were doing research that is of relevance and significance to them. I hope, we aspire to. But I think they also enjoy the idea that they are teaching a younger generation of archaeologists about their concerns. Not just about archaeology but about the larger issues of the relationship between Aboriginal and non-Native people. So my best classroom is the one that involves taking the class to the First Nation rather than trying to bring the First Nations issues into the classroom. |
| [21,26] Karrmen: Out of my own curiosity, is it just generally difficult to recall specific classroom incidents or, I guess I'm wondering it's been a pattern in interviews with instructors where instructors don't necessary speak about specific incidents but more about perception they have about classes. So I'm just curious if you have any thoughts about that. |
| [21,27] Andrew: I suppose it's hard for me to remember...not remember, but perhaps to identify specific incidents. Because I assume students will raise issues without invoking a lot of negative prejudices. So I don't expect to see and perhaps that lack of expectation is somewhat self-fulfilling that I actually don't identify when it does happen. It's possible, it's entirely possible, that students in the classroom maybe are getting messages from other students that I'm not connect to, that I'm not picking up on. I would hope not, but I certainly can't exclude that possibility. As I've mentioned, a lot of archaeology, a lot of the issues that I teach deals with First Nations issues so in my first few classes, I try and raise the complexity of this history in Canada and of some of our responsibility as archaeologist and of some of the contemporary views of archaeology by First Nations authors and First Nations people who are often very critical of what archaeology is. So almost immediately we are dealing with issues in an overt fashion that might be the genesis of snide comments down the road. If I haven't been dealing with them right away, people might be dwelling on some of these issues and they may emerge as some off-handed remark between students. |
| [21,28] I'm not sure if I'm sort of preempting that kind of discussion, if students who are taking my classes are simply not raising those issues, if they don't have necessarily all of those concerns, although I would find that hard to believe because some of those classes are quite large and I'm sure we get a variety of political and cultural views as we do in any classroom. So it's hard for me to locate a specific incident where a student has stood up and said something offensive or insensitive towards First Nations or Aboriginal people. That's hard for me to remember that, especially since a lot of the writing and reading that we do is an effort to really counter balance that, whether it's the First Nations in Canada or around the world. You know, there's a lot of scholarship over the last 50 years by authors who are of Indigenous background in anthropology, who are confronting these issues and the long legacy, so this is part of the subject matter of our classes. So it's perhaps harder for students to off-handedly come up with an argument that evokes some of those stereotypes. I don't know if that really answers your question. I'm struggling with this issue myself. I know personally I would find it upsetting and emotionally upsetting to deal with racist or bigoted views in the classroom setting. So I struggle, I would struggle and I do struggle if those things are raised. But I don't ignore them when they come up. |
| [21,29] That I don't have any to come to hand, to come to mind immediately I hope is a fact of indication that them not being very common rather me ignoring them when they do happen. But when I saw your earlier film about students, about First Nations students and their experiences in classrooms, the suggestion is otherwise. There is a pervasiveness to bigoted views about First Nations people. Would you agree with that with the sense from your first film? |
| [21,30] Karrmen: I think there's a real deficit in people's knowledge about First Nations' people, and history, and cultures. Because there really is no kind of social...it seems like a limited social discourse around First Nations people. That people don't have a developed way of talking about them or being able to ask questions in a way that doesn't reveal the fact that there is no developed way of talking about it and that that underdevelopment is I think that's where a lot of insensitivity or what's read as ignorant or racist statements come from. Because people haven't had a social or institutional education in thinking about how to talk about these issues or how to ask these questions. I mean that's just where I was coming out of. Because after that first set of interviews, because I was also thinking about where civil rights and affirmative actions have in the States for instance have created a language for people to be able to talk about black history, African American history. There's a much longer, seems like a much more developed language and I don't know that's the case here around First Nations history, so I think...yeah, but we are asking instructors to do something different than we're asking for students. |
| [21,31] We've asked in a lot of ways, we've asked instructors to teach substantial Aboriginal content if they want to participate in the interviews. A lot of students have come to us... I think they came to the project more because they had a specific situation happen and they want to talk about it. So I think maybe while we did ask students the same way we've made an open call to students who have taken courses with substantial Aboriginal content who wanted to talk about this, what we ended up with was much more specifically these stories that people have specific incidents to talk about. So it's kind of hard to say. It's just an interesting pattern that I noticed that while our call out when we put out, advertised for participants, they were very similar. It's interesting that the ways that people's interviews have gone so I'm just curious... |
| [21,32] Andrew: That is a very interesting pattern. One thing that I can speak to about that a little bit is when we talk about issues that involve Aboriginal history or really human history on any level, and we do because we theorize humans and anthropology all the time. I try not to lose students too much in the abstract about the general humans or universal qualities of humanity. But instead to bring them to specific individuals and specific people and to humanize these discussion because once we start thinking about people in the abstract whether it's humans in general, or Native people or a cultural group in antiquity, we tend to make cognitive leaps, short cuts, that I think lead to stereotypical notions. By trying to bring people, and also sometimes narrate my own experience with people that I know into the classroom, I've tried to remind students that there are more abstract ways of understanding human behavior and human nature must also accommodate specific human realities of individuals. So I'll give you a brief example, we do a lot of work in anthropology about explaining economic behavior, why people do things they do economically. It can be sometimes perplexing for us to think about. |
| [21,33] As you perhaps know there's general, as well as macro, as well as micro economic models of understanding specific economic gestures that people make and also explaining long term economic trends in human culture. One of the things that we encounter in the Northwest Coast that's famous around the world is the ceremonial feasting known at the potlatch, the colloquial term, and these ceremonial feasts are forms of giving away wealth to affines, to members of the community, and to all sort of guests. So this gesture of becoming powerful by giving away wealth seems counterintuitive to many people raised in a western notion where wealth and power go hand in hand, and if you actually want to accumulate wealth, you accumulate wealth, you don't just give it away. Historically in anthropology, it's been a bit of a puzzle to understand. One possible way to explain it is to think of it in terms as economic risk management. People have potlatches and they have feasts and give away stuff as a way of ensuring that when they are in need, they can draw on a community of benevolence to help them out. So it's a form of economic insurance, an insurance policy. And we can talk about this in class as I have to announce in sort of an abstract sense. But I also know a lot of First Nations people who participate in ceremonies and so I often remind students that we can think very cleverly about these ideas, that potlatching is a form of economic risk management. |
| [21,34] But when you meet somebody like friends of mine that I know who do it who are elders and important people in their communities who host these feasts, it will be hard to take them aside and say to them, "Sir I think your feast is as important to you as really just a form of economic risk management." It makes us laugh, it would be silly, it will be preposterous said, even though it may partly be so. It's so much more and that so much more is something we tend to forget as we try to distill humanity into its more understandable, more predicable quality. Not that they are not predicable qualities in human behavior, but that they're not the only thing we should be attentive to. So trying to juxtaposing those for students, trying to bring in the human, the personal, as well as the abstract and universal I think are important parts of the classroom setting. So when we encounter issues that could potentially lead to people making overgeneralizations, oversimplifications, I try to remind people of a very important way of thinking about this: if it doesn't explain ourselves, it's unlikely to explain somebody else, whether they are distant from us in time, in the distant past or by some sense of cultural difference. If we're taking models to explain indigeneity that we would never use to explain our parents, our children, our families, then they are probably not entirely appropriate for explaining somebody else's families either. |
| [21,35] And I think that those kinds of reminders throughout a class but also out of the class tend to preempt some of those more simplified views. A lot of stereotyping and a lot of bigotry comes from oversimplifications of other people and a sense of conceit, that we are somehow more complex and more sophisticated than other might be. So by circumventing that and rendering human experiences in all its forms as being highly complex as highly complex as ourselves. I try to remind students that there are no simple, there are few simple answers, because sometimes there are simple answers, and they are all worthy of scrutiny. So I do so because I want students to understand the importance of this empathetic view of being critical, in the academic sense, of scholarship on humanity but also being empathetic to what is at stake, who is being studied and what interest they might have in our academic views of them by reversing the table, by turning them into subjects as well as being the object or the scholars, the studiers we are also part of the subject of our study. So maybe that prevents students from raising otherwise statements they may be thinking. It's hard. I'm uncomfortable myself with statements of bigotry and race in class so I probably work hard to prevent people from saying them. |
| [21,36] Maybe I should let them say things so we can hash them out, but I'm not sure...it's a very emotional subject for me and perhaps I'm taking the easy route out by trying to prevent the people from raising them. I'm not sure, I don't know. I'm don't if it'd be better to have students to actually feel, who have views that we would consider to have unpalatable in class and then have a negotiation and try to understand on what basis they are making arguments or whether they have any merit, rather than my approach which is to subvert that from the beginning. I don't know. I don't think I'm brave enough to try and generate an adversarial debate on some of these very emotional issues. I think it's a really important issue, a challenging issue for me personally but also for those of us who teach issues of race in general but also First Nations ancestry in particular in the classroom which is, I think I signal to students early on in my classes about attitudes and comments that I would be uncomfortable with that are bigoted, or perhaps to put it charitably, oversimplifications of people's cultural realities. The distancing of ourselves from other people and all the negative consequences that comes out of those kinds of discussions. I wonder if in doing so, I simply recruited students who are like-minded to me, who are aspired to an equitable solution to our society and not allow those students who have reasonable if controversial, or perhaps challenging issues to raise them in the classroom setting. |
| [21,37] I know I'm emotionally and personally uncomfortable with them, so I'm probably not encouraging those kind of views. But at the same time, I actually don't like the adversarial system where you take two opposing points of views and have people fight it out. I don't actually like that as a form of scholarly debate. I don't think that's as productive as a more empathetic consensus, effort at kind of collaborative scholarship that one can have in a seminar discussion rather than a head-to-head kind of fight. I don't encourage students to raise terribly controversial views in the class and I wonder if that's the wisest choice. As we were talking about earlier, what are the outcomes of this? I think for those students who aspire to a more empathetic view, I think will appreciate what I'm trying to do. But those who have hardened views that are different from mine may not be swayed by my argument. I would hope so, but perhaps not, and then they would feel they don't have a venue. Politically they don't have a venue to express their thoughts, and thus work them out. That's one of my concerns and I don't have a solution to that. I do couch, though, I do try and couch First Nations, specifically anthropological engagement of First Nations peoples in the history of racism and indeed of the history of anthropological scholarship towards racism. |
| [21,38] I try and note for students that despite 100 years or more of anthropologist arguing that races don't exist, there is no biological basis for a concept of race, the concept of race has a great deal of currency from today. It still exists and it's still a very real thing with real social and political consequences. People subscribe to it, people believe in it, but it's what we would refer to ask folk taxonomy, it has no bases or fact. I mean there are allele distributions of frequencies based on any number of physical traits. Those that cluster around skin color and facial characters are simply very small subsets that do not actually cluster with other forms of genetic diversity. So we don't have, what we think of being races are actually not genetic clusters of anything other than a very small set of traits that we subscribe or ascribe a great deal of value to, political and social. That said they have great deal of value in people's lives. People believe in them and they influence people's realities all across the world. Having that discussion, I hope in the advance of or in the context of dealing with the racist history of anthropology as specifically in dealing with First Nations, perhaps broadens the subject and shows them that it is actually a more pervasive quality of humans to create distinction between each other that we are all susceptible to and maybe in doing so somewhat diffuses the more proximal issues of people's specific views by having them query the larger almost philosophical foundations upon which they are made. |
| [21,39] It is a very challenging issue for us. As I said, my approach is to render the subject in somewhat more historical and talk about the long history of archaeological, specifically an anthropological in general colonialism or its relationship to colonialism, and then its more recent efforts confronting that history which I think are allocable and I try to encourage students to join in that project because it's not complete to recognize the value in confronting some of these unfortunate qualities in our discipline and in our effort to be scholarly because we are susceptible and vulnerable to those same biases that our academic ancestors were. So it's a challenge. |
| [21,40] Karrmen: Are there things that you've tried that you wouldn't recommend? |
| [21,41] Andrew: I want to get students thinking about these issues. It's almost like the issue we talked about earlier. I want to see students confronting these issues in a respectful and empathetic way, and at the same time, the history of some of these issues is anything but respectful. So it's sort of a... we are almost between two horns of a dilemma. We want them to engage these controversial issues of racism, etcetera, but at the same we want them to do so in a respectful and empathetic way, which is essentially not racist use are. So recognizing and exploring these histories of views as they exist today is a challenge if we want to aspire to these empathetic approaches. So it's a... I still struggle with sorting out the best way to do that. I've tried debates and adversarial kind of a system with limited success so I'm not...the best forum that I have had in the classroom that I think worked is the willingness to stop whatever my lecture schedule might be when these issues emerge and to join these discussions and narrate some of my own experiences. To bring the subject and make it personal but also be attentive to it. |
| [21,42] To not just sort of continue on with the lesson plan regardless with the fact that somebody has invoked a very controversial and powerful concept, but instead just stop and try to bring out what people are thinking. Because sometimes they have these expectations and they don't want to have them. They, for example, we talked about earlier the issues of double standard, where they logically can't get their brains around the fact that there is a double standard over the fisheries and yet they think there shouldn't be double standards and yet this double standard seems to be acceptable and they can't work their brains around that in some cases. So having a moment where you discuss those things and put them in a larger context perhaps provides them with an opportunity to reconcile. The need for having specific legislation that accommodates the First Nations fishery even at the expense of the commercial and sport fisheries. There's merit in that argument. Even though in a deontological sense, in a foundational sense we should've aspired an equal treatment for all in a consequential sense, in a pragmatic consequence, a sense of how we find the best good for the most people today. A segregated fishery has value. I don't think I've tried anything that's fallen spectacularly flat, but I often wonder if I haven't tried enough. |
| [21,43] That's something I'm always thinking about, how do I get students to think about these issues, to learn about these issues and to do so in a way that's inclusive and accommodating for students of a variety of cultural backgrounds so that people can deal with controversial subjects and work their brains, work their way through an understanding of those controversial issues and at the same time not create an environment or climate that's hostile to anybody. I think that's a real challenge because as soon as you study racist views, one of the things that people will have, they will start bringing out racist views, that's what we are trying to explore but at the same time that's what we are trying to confront and I don't have an easy solution to that puzzle. We need to keep trying. And I think one of the things that help is the effort. If we return to the subject enough times, whether it's within the single classroom or in the larger curriculum of the university setting or in a broad pantheon of our research agenda across the country, if we return to the issue enough, I think people will gain a sophistication, the very sophistication we aspired to teach them, they will gain it. Not so much necessarily by us teaching it, but by them just trying to returning to them and working through these issues. Because we have the community of people we want to speak to who don't have really the language of understanding of these complex issues. |
| [21,44] They have instead oversimplified tropes and biases that they are dissatisfied with but they don't have anything to replace them. So providing some replacement can be very, very challenging. They can learn those replacement ideas themselves if we just give them enough exposure to it, I hope. And that's not a very satisfying solution because it's just suggesting if we keep on returning to the subject, things will get better somehow. It's a terribly specific agenda for confronting some of these problems. |
| [21,45] Karrmen: Do you see the classroom situation here improving at the moment? |
| [21,46] Andrew: I think so. I don't see it getting worse, and I don't know if it was terribly bad to begin with, so the notion of improvement over time is hard for me to gauge. I do think that things we've tried in our course program specifically in archaeology have worked out very well. I think we are teaching, we are training archaeologists now who have had experience working with First Nations who are more empathetic to First Nations issues, who have less biases, who have less simplified notions to what it is to be First Nations and thus they are less vulnerable to bigotry now than we did a few years ago and that's the consequence of our close rapport with communities like the Musqueam. So I think we have created, we're giving students better tools for understanding and addressing these issues. And it's not as though we are trying to proselytize to them, I don't think. But I think just by giving them an opportunity to work with First Nations community members in First Nations community, they themselves gain an understanding of the complexity of the issues and of the pervasiveness of some of these biases that we can't always teach them. |
| [21,47] This last summer one of the elders were looking at photos of the 1930s and 40s reminded the students that didn't get plumbing and electricity until the 1950s, and this is in downtown Vancouver. They didn't get to vote until the 1960s. These are facts we can tell students but coming from a First Nations elder who lived through that it carries a great deal more weight. It's far more memorable if I talk to them in the classroom. I think our best efforts are producing gains in improving non-Native students' understandings of Native concerns in archaeology which is our specific aim. |
| [21,48] Karrmen: What might be the university do to provide a better context for these discussions? |
| [21,49] Andrew: I think there are a lot of people around the campus who are doing things that we are doing: working with First Nations communities, addressing issues of bias and discrimination whether of First Nations or other groups in other parts of society. But specifically across Indigenous issues, I think there's a large and diverse community of us, including people who are in First Nations studies programs, in anthropology, in history. I don't think there's a central kind of venue within the university that coordinates us and I think that would be very useful to have, just an administrative umbrella under which we can learn about each other. In fact we've learned...that kind of administrative proximity seems very trivial, but I think it's actually very powerful. We've learned a lot more about First Nations Studies Program, or I have since you guys moved into our building. If it had not been reconstruction of the Buchanan buildings, I would have learned a lot less about the First Nations Studies Program than I do now. So that kind of creating a space within which people can interact and don't have to always reinvent the wheel can link into each other and draw on shared experiences I think would be very useful. |
| [21,50] We have an umbrella institution for Arts, we have an umbrella institution for Sciences, we have a large, a number of administrative umbrella institutions that provide this coordination from the highest levels to the classroom and all the way down the echelon of administrative responsibility. And we have said, the university president has said, that Aboriginal issues are a priority for us. Well if they are, then we should have the administrative backing that substantiates that claim. I don't know if we have that, I could be ignorant of that, I don't know if we have that coordinated effort right now. |
| [21,51] Karrmen: What would you like to see happen next? |
| [21,52] Andrew: I'd like to see that kind of administrative coordination that would be one thing. I would very much like to connect informally as well as formally with other classrooms, other faculty, other researchers working with these issues. I think that one of the reasons we took the classroom into the Musqueam was to widen the audience of scrutiny over what we do. To question our assumptions, to have people from different backgrounds, areas of expertise, look at what we're trying to do and then cast a critical eye on our efforts to improve it. And I think we can do that in many directions. I would really like to have people have a background in History, in the formal discipline of History, from First Nations Studies speaking to us. I have some informal links to some of these communities. But I think it would wonderful to have collaborative ventures over this issue. In anthropology and in archaeology we are one venue, one way of doing it. But as I've mentioned and said earlier it's such a complex project, finding ways to coordinate would I think improve the content of our classes, improve the communication that we have between ourselves and between ourselves and First Nation members of our community and First Nation members of communities we surround and to whom might think we have a responsibility. |
| [21,53] The Musqueam being one, because UBC sits on their territory. But to all of First Nations of BC I think we have as public service, we have responsibility to all sectors of our community. If the Aboriginal community is one of those sectors to whom we have responsibility, then I think that coordination in understanding how we can service that would be very, very helpful so that we don't all work in separate directions and both struggle to learn whatever somebody else knows. I think that would be very useful. |
| [21,54] Karrmen: I'm at the end of the questions, I was wondering if there was anything you wanted to add that I haven't asked. |
| [21,55] Andrew: I suppose there's one thing that surprised me when I showed up. I've only been here for two and half, well three years. It's surprising when I came there that there are archaeologists from UBC working with Musqueam since the 1940s in collaborative relationships, of a type we'd think to be very modern, very enlightened relationships of collaboration and collegiality. It's something that we forget. We have, despite the problems, we have a long and at time very productive history here at UBC with First Nations communities around us, perhaps more so than other parts of the world. So I'm encouraged by the state of affairs today although it's not perfect and I think there are significant flaws, your earlier film drew out many of those and was a bit of an eye opener for me. I still think in comparison to other places, I would like to think we have a fairly good state of affairs even though I think we need to improve. If we are to improve, then there's some things that we have to do. We have to scrutinize what we are doing today more carefully, we have to administer it more effectively, and we have to wonder whether what we do would change and how it would change if we bring in more First Nations students, more First Nations faculty, and more First Nations administrators. |
| [21,56] There's a demographic legacy of colonialism that exists, I think at UBC and in all Canadian universities. We have far fewer First Nations people in the system than there are in the population and that's clearly evidence however you want to explain it of differential access. I think anthropology and archaeology will change when we find there are First Nations archaeologists. I think that will be a different kind of archaeology than I do. I think it will be an improved form of archaeology and certainly we won't know until we get it, and I think that having that conversation with somebody who's an archaeologist from a First Nations background would improve the kind of archaeology that I do and we don't have that here and I imagine that's not uncommon across the university. I think we have a number of good initiatives, but those are very important. I don't know what the number for students are, but I would imagine they are not as high as the overall representation of First Nations people in the population of British Columbia or Canada. When those numbers start to balance, as much as they have done so in issues of gender, we'll start to see a different kind of scholarship, one I would think would be improved. Even today, in gender we have a legacy of far more men than women in the upper echelons. |
| [21,57] Even though the majority of our student body is female, the majority of our faculty are men, and I would imagine over time those things would change and then we would probably find that we produce scholarship in a somewhat different way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we do and we won't know until we see more of it. And here's not just a case of not having a very good representation of First Nations faculty for example, there are just very few. So I think those are things as a university we can work proactively to improve. Clearly since we train students who become faculty, we should be able to find ways. |